What did you think s*x was, before you knew what s*x is?
That's a good question.
I remember being obsessed with the fact that nobody was telling me what you did. We'd been shown pictures... by the time I got to secondary school... pictures of ovaries and sperm and penises, but I was just like, "But what do you... How do you lie?"
I used to think if you kissed somebody that was it, you had a baby!
"Mum, I'm pregnant, I've kissed a lad down the street."
She went, "Oh, no, you're not!"
It was like a hidden, dark world.
We were basically told, don't!
Knowing there was something I shouldn't know.
It was naughty and not to talk about it.
Nice girls, especially, don't!
And certainly, never, ever any sense that it would be a pleasurable thing, and that's messed up, isn't it?
When you're teaching children that it's just a dirty, bad thing that you've got to do when you're married and that's it.
I found a book, you know...
Do I know what a book is?!
I had to make assumptions!
And it had black-and-white pictures in it of sexual positions and there were photographs, but what I found disturbing was that the pictures of them had been taken in a very medical way, so that her hair was all over her face so you wouldn't see who she was.
"Don't look at me while I have s*x!"
All you knew was the shame. The shame!
The shame of anything do with, like, your reproductive system, let alone anything more explicit!
I never went to a book for gay s*x tips, it was... I always...
It was always the internet or friends.
Where do you find that information from, then?
It was probably p0rn.
Yeah, p0rn, definitely, that's the only way I discovered anything about myself.
Lesbians don't just scissor. They scissor!
I first found out the traditional '80s child way, which was loose, straight p0rn, scattered around a park.
Yeah. Dirty magazines is what you found.
Yeah, jazz mags.
It was like this secret underworld.
We had to find what we could, really.
I remember thinking, like, that is disgusting, that is rank!
I do not want a part of this, I am too good for this.
I just looked at it and thought, my pen1s would go in that well.
Being gay, I still didn't feel like I was part of it, like it was just dirty and wasn't my thing.
I think it was Keats that said, "My pen1s would go into that well!"
There's always that one time when you're trying to recreate p0rn that you've seen.
My first time having s*x, I almost tried to re-enact every p0rn thing on the internet I'd ever seen, I tried to put us in positions, it was awkward.
You can't edit the bad stuff in real life!
At one point, I fell off one side of the bed and I elbowed him in the shoulder.
You realise how unrealistic everything that they're doing in these movies you're watching is.
They've gotta know it's not real.
It's a fix, it's a fantasy!
Good s*x on camera? I think it's always good s*x on camera once it's edited so...
The great thing about fantasies is, we don't have scopes, do we?
So we can build this fantastic fantasy in our head.
I do a lot of "mummy, mummy" p0rn.
It's so taboo, it's not real.
They like to look at a mummy and a daughter and they don't really want it to happen in real life, and I think it's a way for people to live that fantasy without physically having to do it.
Every single man in this world has a fantasy of a threesome.
You tell me one man that doesn't, because they will, and I can see you're laughing now because you have.
He's probably done it!
I phoned up my friend and said, "I've just had a threesome in a gay sauna," and they were like, "That's not very you," and that's the point.
I did it because I wanted to be accepted, I wanted to be gay!
I managed to talk a girl into getting her mum involved once.
I got a few high-fives when I told the lads that one.
At one point my girlfriend worked in hotel bars, like the poolside bars, she was a young...
Well, she wasn't young, she was in her 30s but she'd clearly had her daughter young and she wanted to keep hold of her youth, so she was just as set out to have a good time as her daughter was, I just got chatting to the pair of them and the mum was giving me the look as if to say, "You're pretty cute," and I was really interested in her daughter and one night, me and the daughter were getting on and her mum walked in and I just said, "It's all right, you can stay if she's all right with it," and she was really drunk and she went, "Go on, then, we're going home tomorrow," and that was it, then!
Both of them, mother and daughter.
One of them was up here and the other one was down there and then they swapped...
Yeah, it was a fun night.
I went to a gay sauna for the first and last time because it was almost like I wanted to prove something to myself and be like, "Yeah, I can be part of this gay culture, I can be part of it all, I can whore it up with the best of them!"
Because I'm holding on, I'm holding on to be relevant, I'm chasing that. As soon as I started showering, this guy turns around and starts playing with himself and he's looking at me but had sinister eyes that were, like, baggy eyes, it was like someone had...
You know like a candle, how it melts?
It was like his face had melted and I just thought, "Oh, no, not for me, sweetheart."
And there was this other guy there, he was w*nk*ng himself off in the corner and he was watching p0rn.
And it was p0rn from like the '40s or '50s, it was crap and he sort of looked at me and I looked at him and I was really nervous then we both started w*nk*ng each other off, he had builder sort of hands and I was like, "Oh, yes, you're talking my language."
He was, like, "Should we go to a cubicle?"
And I was like, "Yeah, all right, then." But then he beckoned in your mutant. Why didn't I say, "Oh, this isn't for me"? Or, "No, not you"?
You felt obliged?
I felt obliged!
Threesome? Oh, yeah, we'll have a threesome, that's f*cking awesome. Threesome? That's great, that's great, and essentially what you do is spend the entire time trying to make the one you don't fancy as much not realise you don't fancy them as much, so you go and over-compensate and ruin it for yourself.
At least, that's always been my experience.
You know what makes me laugh? Is that when the good-looking one come, he left and he left me with the mutant and I ended up being the finisher!
Like in p0rn, the fluffer or whatever you call it, I was just like...
In p0rn, it's usually someone makes someone else feel worthless and they get off on it and then they make them do stuff to them.
I think now it makes a lot of... not just young men, male, I think it makes them aggressive towards women.
It's seen as very taboo for men to be submissive, so a lot of men hide that submissive side.
Some girls won't say anything, they'll be like a log in a bed, like, just lay there, look at the ceiling, they won't do anything or say anything, you have to do all the work.
Then you get girls who kind of like pin me down, take off my trousers. "Are you gonna f*ck me yet, or what? Hurry up."
You're like, "Oh, sh1t!" You get a little bit scared, you're like, "f*cking hell, I like this, though."
I think women are the strongest ones, I think they do over-power the man when they're in bed.
I would say already, don't trouble me if you can't give me what I want.
People are wanting more taboo stuff, at one point everybody wanted a**l.
I like it up the bum.
Yeah, me too.
I like bum s*x, up your bum!
A lot of women won't do that.
It's f*cking lovely. Oh, my God!
They are missing out on so much.
I love bum s*x, I'd have it all the time.
Actually, my partner prefers bum s*x.
I've had some men that do prefer that.
It's f*cking lush, it's gorgeous!
You do get a sensation and it can make you orgasm.
Yeah, obviously this would be the science bit, the G-spot's right in there and if they get it right, they can touch it.
Is there a sense of it being dirtier and it's kind of forbidden as well, I suppose?
Yeah, it's disgusting, it's disgusting s*x but it's rough s*x and it's hardcore, I love it.
Yeah, you've gotta have a little bit of kinkiness.
Some people are very, very deeply hardcore.
The only clients who pay to see me are men, I'll beat the crap out of you, I'll bang your bollocks to a board.
There's a thing called cock and ball torture, there's nipple torture, piercing, I've got needles, medical gloves, spit in their face, drink your spit, I'm a bit of a sadistic bitch so I do get a certain amount of pleasure from doing that. But you're not going to have contact with me. any sexual They will ask, can they relieve themselves? Or they like me to make them eat their cum, or I've got one guy, he saves up his sperm in condoms in the fridge and he brings them in a champagne glass and he likes me to make him drink it or force-feed it from a spoon.
Men, you're strange creatures.
What kind of men usually will come to you, what kind of ages and what are they like?
Youngest I've had is 21, the oldest I've had is 79, I've had a councillor, like a politician, I've got quite a few coppers come to see me, few factory jobs. And most of them are married, most do have girlfriends, they don't want to risk losing face by telling their partners.
It's almost like a form of counselling because people confide an incredible amount in you.
So s*x is a form of therapy?
To a degree, yeah.
When you have s*x with someone, you don't just give yourself to them physically, in my mind, you offer up everything, you're totally vulnerable.
One guy came to see me and he was a sexual addict and he had done everything, he had s*x with men, s*x with couples and he was always looking for new targets but you know what was sad?
He was just never happy, he was never...
I looked and I thought he was the loneliest person in the world because he was never satisfied.
You know, I said, "Don't you get excitement from seeing a film or going to see a good rock band?"
I grew up with silence, I felt like that silence I grew up with got filled with something and that was fear, I was afraid of s*x, I doubted myself, I didn't trust people and these are all things you learn over time, or you learn to accept yourself.
I mean, I have got flab, I've got cellulite, I've got everything but it doesn't bother me so long as I have good s*x and they enjoy my body and I enjoy theirs.
As I've been with my partner for 13 years, he knows every scratch, every stretch mark, every cellulite mark.
You know, if you don't like it then don't have it, I'm not asking you to have it. If you want it, take it, I'm not stopping you!
I think now I'm a lot more confident in who I am and what I'm doing with my life and it reflects a lot in how I treat people and how, when it comes to s*x, I behave with it.
It makes you strive to want to be better and to reach out to a lot more people and hope to make a change and not be a p0rn star, you know?!
Just a p0rn star!
Maybe I want to be a p0rn star, maybe that's my thing.
You're living vicariously through other people.
I am living vicariously through other people!
I'm hanging on for dear life, dear life!
Very good, awesome!
You had everything, you had tears, you had fun, you had jokes, you had slagging some people, perfect!