(elevator humming)
(elevator chiming)
(elevator door opening)
-Okay. You ready for this?
-Amanda Mustard: How can you be?
You can do it.
William "Bill" Flickinger:
Hello, darling.
-Hi, how are ya?
-Hi. I'm great. How are you?
-Hello, gorgeous.
-Amanda: Hi, Grandpa.
-Bill: Come on in.
-Amanda: How are you doing?
-Bill: Good to see you, baby.
-(Amanda chuckles awkwardly)
I'm glad you came!
-Well, I--
-You look great, woman.
-Eh, thanks.
-You do. You look wonderful.
-I'm good.
-Mm.
It's good.
(chuckles)
(indistinct chatter)
-Lulu, this is
my daughter, Debi.
-Hi.
This is
my granddaughter, Amanda.
-Nice to meet you.
-Nice to meet you.
Hi, Doris.
He's a wonderful person.
-Debi: Good to hear.
-Yes, he is.
Aw, you're sweet, Doris,
you're too nice.
Hi, Ruby!
Ruby:
He's a lovely man.
-Debi: Is he?
-He is. Really nice.
-Bill: What?
-Lorraine: I said, I saw all
-these gorgeous young ladies
coming in here...
-Yes, his family.
...and I walked by,
and there you are.
I hope you are being...
a good boy.
-(people chuckling)
-Bill: It's awful hard,
but I try.
I-I agree, I agree.
Bill: I know you do.
(laughs)
-Lorraine: Have a good one.
-Okay, Lorraine, take care.
That one has a mouth,
and she's-- (sighs)
Takes all kinds when you're
livin' in a community,
-ya know?
-She's so nasty to her husband.
(light music playing)
Of course, honey, of course.
-Don't you
hesitate for anything.
-Amanda: Okay.
I'm at your total disposal.
We're just love
to have you, girl.
-(Amanda clears throat)
-It's an honor and a privilege.
(Amanda clears throat)
Amanda:
Now, as far as the issue
that you were accused of,
and I just wanted
to ask if you did identify
as having those struggles
and, and how you
felt about that.
-Bill:
Did I have a battle with that?
-Amanda: Mm-hmm.
You better believe I did.
I don't know,
but I sure did.
Absolutely.
And I used to fight with myself.
I said,
"Why do you do this?
This is not right."
I didn't want to do things
that were bad or wrong,
but it, it, it just--
and it just seemed like
what was so strange--
I couldn't-- I still haven't
figured that one out,
but it seems so strange
because there were times
that-- and I don't know
the answer to it,
but it seemed like
that some of these
little girls, for example,
would almost
throw themselves at me.
Now, that might sound
a little stupid,
but they wanted to learn things,
and they were experimental.
They want-- Ya know?
And it-- to me, it was
too much of an open temptation.
And I fell into it.
Yeah, there was
things that happened.
-Oh, absolutely.
-Amanda: Mm-hmm.
We had quite
an engagement, so to speak,
and, uh, we were
very close, sexually.
Even though she was little...
and she loved it.
Amanda:
Can I ask how old she was?
Well, she started--
I think she started around
the age of 9 through 11.
(uneasy music playing)
(ambient nature sounds)
-(animals chittering)
-(indistinct chatter)
Amanda:
Uh, how 'bout
the, uh, the, the boy?
Can he come to another elephant?
-(cars honking)
-(ambient street noise)
(background street noise)
(door closes)
(vehicle honks)
(thunder rumbling)
(ringback tone)
Debi (over phone):
Hey, Amanda, it's Mom.
If you could
give me a call back
as soon as possible.
Grandma is not
doing well at all.
(thunder continues)
Um, not sure what to expect.
Alright, I love you.
I'll talk to you later. Bye.
(plane engines humming)
Bill: Well, what do ya think
about that, huh?
There we get to see that dolly.
Is the pain a little better?
Okay, good. You were
really hurtin' earlier.
My mom's life was like
one of those crystals
that you can hang in the sun,
and you see different facets.
A lot of it is a mystery.
In the few times
that I did ask her
to tell me
the truth about things,
like my past,
or my dad, or whatever,
she just got angry with me,
and she would just say there is
no use in bringing up the past
because it's not
gonna change what happened.
(light music playing)
She knew so much more
than what she ever expressed
because she wasn't
allowed to express it.
-(indistinct chatter)
-(machines beeping)
My dad stole
my mom's entire life.
She left
with all of her secrets.
She knew so much
and she defended him
until the day she d*ed.
And I feel like she had
a million and one regrets
because she never lived
her life for herself.
The impact that my dad
has had on our family,
I think, is devastating,
but we've never
talked about it.
So we don't know the truth.
How do you change that?
It's funny when you
think about, you know,
how Grandpa liked
the burnt cookies.
Like, why was
he strange like that?
Everybody else
liked the normal ones,
but why did he like, ya know--
ya know, just different.
He was always different.
Amanda:
So I'm just gonna go through
some of the paperwork
that we got from Grandma.
There's all these papers
from McKean County
in Bradford, Pennsylvania,
concerning
Dr. William Flickinger.
Grandpa.
Did you know
what he did in Bradford?
Well, when I started finding out
about everything about him,
was when I was,
uh, like, a junior.
But what happened?
Like, you don't know
what happened.
No, all I remember
is coming in to school,
and that's when
I walked down the hallway.
Where all
the football players were
was where my locker was.
And he had--
They started sayin'--
They surrounded me
and they said,
"We wanna do to you to what
your dad did
to a-all those girls."
And, of course, Grandma
didn't say a word of anything,
-so it was all just--
-But even you and your brothers,
-like, did you talk ab-- like,
"Wh-What the hell happened?"
-No.
We never talked about anything.
We were never allowed
to see any newspapers.
I, to this day, I know nothing.
Amanda:
I just wanna try
to line it all up,
see what happened.
Look at, ya know,
some of these names.
I just-- I don't know.
I wanna know more about
what he did up in Bradford.
I mean, it's crazy
that you don't even know.
(tense, energetic music playing)
(ringback tone)
automated voice 1 (over phone):
Thank you for calling.
-God.
-For service, press one.
(operator speaking)
Hi, my name is Amanda,
and I'm looking
for an article from the '70s.
(official speaking)
automated voice 2 (over phone):
You have reached
the Filing Office
of the Commonwealth Court
of Pennsylvania.
official (over phone):
That far back, I can't
make any guarantees,
but I could take a look.
Amanda:
I'm just looking
for absolutely
any information
around this case.
operator (over phone):
No, cannot find
case number, no.
"Cannot find case number."
My family is from Bradford,
and there
was something terrible
that my grandfather did
in Bradford in the '70s.
Does the Bradford Library
keep any records
of newspapers?
So it is all on microfilm?
Okay. Thank you so much
for your help.
speaker (over phone):
Yes, William Flickinger.
Was he a chiropractor?
Amanda:
He was, yes.
speaker:
Yeah, I really don't
remember much.
This was a long time ago.
In '75, he was convicted
of statutory r*pe
of a 12-year-old girl.
So, since it was his
first offense, technically,
all he got was
two years' probation.
He did not spend
a day in jail,
and just up and moved
four hours away to Harrisburg
with a totally clean slate.
How the f*ck was
that allowed to happen?
-(ambient street noise)
-(birds chirping)
(yelps)
I've always known
my grandpa was creepy,
and that
some things happened,
but it was so vague,
and now that I'm looking closer
and finding
concrete r*pe charges
that he managed
to kind of weasel out of,
(stammers) it's just
scratching the surface.
I just need to keep looking.
Maybe I can
hold him accountable.
He's still alive.
I never thought that I'd
move back to Pennsylvania.
There's a lotta pain
in my past here.
My childhood was difficult.
There was so much
dysfunction in my family
and no communication about
what was really going on.
(imitates drumroll)
I just felt this pressure
to maintain this image
that we were
this picture-perfect
Christian family.
I just wanted out.
So a week after I turned 18,
I left my family,
my faith, the state.
I eventually left the country.
(singing in native dialect)
(light music playing)
-(honking)
-(crowd chanting)
-(glass shatters)
-Ooh!
(speaker yells)
-(expl*si*n)
-(whistling)
Amanda:
My childhood dream was to be
an ice cream truck driver,
uh, not a photojournalist.
(laughs)
But I love that I get to
make exposing the truth
about something
a part of my job.
I managed to put
enough distance between
me and my family
to give me some
healthy perspective.
I had this new
understanding and language
to describe things
that, for my whole life,
I thought were just normal.
Like, the way that some men
treated me and my body,
that was actually as*ault.
Or my "touchy-feely" grandpa
is actually a pedophile.
I was just starting
to reframe this all
when my grandma d*ed.
And it just set me on fire.
I had so many questions.
So when my mom asked me
to go to Florida with her
to take my grandma's
ashes to my grandpa,
I saw my chance to go
straight to the source.
Bill (in video):
If you can talk to it,
and clapping your hands
-it'll go to work. Okay?
-Amanda (in video): Okay.
I was so nervous.
-I was so, I was so
nervous doing this.
-Debi: You? I--
Oh, my gosh.
I was more nervous.
I think I was so nervous,
I wanted to throw up.
-Are you serious?
-Mm-hmm.
Because I didn't know
what his reaction would be.
I thought,
because of his anger,
I thought he would just--
Amanda:
But he's never really
been angry with you.
-That you've seen.
-That I've seen.
Debi:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda (in video):
As far as younger girls--
Okay, this I wanna listen to.
(in video) Slightly
hard-hitting question.
-Oh, that's the last one.
-Bill (in video): Whew!
Debi:
Imagine what's
goin' on in his mind.
-Bill:
No, you're not really.
-(coughing in video)
Amanda (in video):
As far as younger girls,
what about the girls
in the family?
Bill:
No, I had no problem,
no problems with any of them.
Except one time with Debi.
I think she was 5 or 6.
I took a bath with her.
I know you don't.
And I took a bath with her,
-and I touched her
in the bathtub.
-Oh.
-Listen to-- Oh.
-Bill: That was
as much as it went.
She just loved the activity.
-It's-- I was 5.
-Bill: And, uh, so,
consequently, she didn't feel
it was wrong and I didn't.
-I know it was wrong...
-Oh, my God.
Bill:
...but I didn't--
I couldn't help it
'cause she loved it
and I loved it, so...
-Oh, my God.
-Bill: That's as far as--
Bill: No.
See how much
you're learnin' today?
That's what you get
for comin' down here.
That's when I was like...
-I know.
-..."We gotta go."
Bill:
But I'm being very
forward with you.
I'm not, I'm not hiding.
Debi:
The earliest memory, I was,
probably, 7 or 8 years old.
All I remember is
me laying face down
on one of his chiropractic
adjustment tables,
and I felt him doing
something on my back,
and I realized
that it was his penis,
and he was
rubbin' it on my back.
I never thought
in a million years
not even to tell my mom.
I don't know.
From a child's mind...
it was normal.
I think that how I was raised
definitely has given me
a skewed view of what a marriage
or a relationship should be.
I was so sheltered,
never was allowed
to really date.
And I definitely did not see
a healthy relationship
with my mom and my dad,
so I had nothing to go by.
And so,
I got married at 18.
Ended up having
my daughter, Angie, at 20,
and it was
a very abusive relationship.
It was almost like
jumping out of the frying pan
into the fire.
I had no other options,
so I moved back in
with my parents.
We lived there
for several years.
Because of what
I experienced in my childhood,
I just wanted to do
the right thing.
And I really did trust my mom.
I wanted to prove to myself
that you can love a child
without invading them.
I think I wanted
to prove to myself
that I could be a good mom.
(cooing)
Yeah!
-Yeah!
-(cooing)
(laughing)
(dog barking)
Angie:
With Mom, ya know, I feel
bad about that relationship
because I feel like
there isn't one.
I-I feel really bad
how everything has gotten,
and I can't explain it.
Amanda:
Yeah.
I've always known that I've
had Mom on a pedestal.
-And because I have, I have
such anxiety around it...
-Yeah.
...like, I'll be
carrying on my day,
-wherever I am in the world.
-Mm-hmm, yeah.
And it'll just hit me.
"Oh, my God...
Did Mom fall down the stairs?
Oh, my God, nobody's there.
Oh, my God. Oh, my God."
-And I just, like, freak out.
-Yeah.
-Right. Yeah.
-And I'll start crying.
And be like,
"I have to get ahold of her,
but it's, like, 3:00 a.m."
And I'm like, "Oh, my God,
what if she d*ed in bed?"
-Like...
-Oh, my goodness.
-...that's not healthy. No.
-Yeah, that's not healthy.
With Mom, it was, (sighs)
it was just, like,
you'd come home from New York,
you'd come home and you'd stay.
And, instantly,
it was like the atmosphere...
-I had the gloves on.
-...the atmosphere changed.
It was, um, "Amanda mode."
That's what we'd say.
-"Amanda mode."
-Mom's in "Amanda mode."
-Like, you guys,
it's always tense.
-Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Um, there's, like, this,
this kind of air of tension
around it of, like--
I think it's
very passive-aggressive.
-Oh, yeah.
-Yeah.
Angie:
That's what I had
to do to, to survive.
Salesta:
Oh, isn't this cozy
and nice, Bill?
Bill: Yep.
Amanda:
I saw some old video footage
-of, of you when
you had the hair thing.
-Angie: Oh, yes.
Amanda:
And, like, I remember
being like,
(childishly)
"What's wrong
with Angie's hair?"
-(normal)
Like, just being a stupid kid.
-(both laughing)
It's like,
"Why is Ange bald?"
(laughing)
-And--
-That is so embarrassing.
(indistinct chatter)
Amanda:
I don't think we've ever
actually talked about that.
Angie:
It was-- Honestly, I mean,
for you to even bring it up--
-it's really hard.
-Amanda: I'm sorry.
-No, no, no! (laughs)
-I'm sorry.
No, I'm just sayin' it's,
it's not something that--
(tearful) I'm sorry.
-(Angie laughs)
-Amanda: It's okay, I'm sorry.
-I can't put it back in,
though. I'm sorry.
-No, it's okay, it's okay.
These-- This is part
of the healing, ya know?
-Amanda: Mm-hmm.
-(Angie sniffles)
It was such a shameful,
embarrassing thing
that I did,
and it was like--
Oh, my gosh,
it made me so ugly.
But I just hated, like--
Ya know, it made
my self-esteem even worse.
Amanda: Mm-hmm.
(video game beeping)
Part of Grandpa's video
is you in our house,
and you're sittin'
and playin' video games,
and he's zoomin'
in and out of your head.
But I'm just kinda like,
"What prompted him
to do that?"
-Angie: Yeah.
-Amanda: Yeah.
Did he know that
-that was a sign
of what he had done?
-Angie: I'm sure.
I don't just blame Grandpa.
I, I blame Mom as well.
She subjected... her daughter,
put her right in
with the very person
that hurt her the worst.
Amanda:
Mom put you...
-Put me right into-- Yeah.
-...right in Grandpa's hands.
Like, we're gonna
live with them,
and not only that, but
-I'm gonna let him
and, ya know, Grandma...
-Mm-hmm.
...watch my daughter
while I go to work,
or go on dates, or whatever.
Bill (in video):
Go, Angie!
Higher... higher!
Higher!
Angie: Ya know,
even as sisters,
the whole 10 years
before you were born,
there was a lot that happened
to me that you didn't know.
I went to visit Grandpa
and Grandma when I was 9.
Mom flew me out there
by myself,
and I stayed with them
for a full month
in their motorhome.
Stuff happened
while I was there.
He was, like, touchy-feely.
He'd say,
"This is just a secret thing
between you and I."
(uneasy music playing)
So we were traveling
from one campsite to the next,
and we happened
to stop at a place
where they were
selling motorhomes.
And I went into the bathroom.
For whatever reason,
opened up the cabinet
and there was a little,
tiny lipstick under there,
and whatever possessed me,
or I thought to do this,
I took the lipstick,
and I wrote
in really big letters
across the mirror, "Sex,"
in red lipstick.
And went back out,
and just stood there
like nothing happened.
And Grandma
just pulled me aside
and asked me if I had written
on the bathroom mirror.
And I said, "Yep."
And that was that.
She didn't ask me
why I did it,
but I felt like
I was trying to tell the world,
and nobody was listening.
Mom and Grandma knew,
they knew this was going on,
but there was
never anything said.
It was almost
as though he was protected.
I dealt with it
the same way
that the rest of the family
was dealing with it.
I bottled it up.
(music fades out)
Amanda:
I have a question for you.
If you (laughs) if you...
have one or two words
to describe our family,
what would they be?
-Dysfunction-palooza.
-(both laughing)
-Yeah.
-Hm.
Paul Flickinger:
When I was really young,
Dad had a, a table.
-It was like
an adjustment table...
-Mm-hmm.
...and we picked it up
to take it out,
and out fell
of it a toy, um...
Like plastic dildo...
with a sock.
That was in--
It was tucked inside a sock.
-And I looked at it, and I knew
what it was immediately.
-Mm-hmm.
And he just picked it up,
and put it in his pocket.
When you grow up
in a dysfunctional
environment like that,
you don't know th-that it is
-because that's all you know.
-Mm-hmm.
Like, how did you feel
when you were younger?
-I mean, even t--
How did you manage that?
-How can ya feel?
-I don't know how you feel.
-Hm.
It's just like--
I guess it's like,
"This is happening
in front of me.
I don't know what
to do about it."
-Yeah.
-'Cause it's not
really my place.
-I don't know...
what it is.
-Mm-hmm.
(uneasy music playing)
Paul:
But I felt, for a long time,
that the best thing
that could've happened
to us, as a family,
would've been
if we had been taken out
by a f*ring squad in 1975.
Nothing terrible
had happened.
We were still a unit.
We even sang in church
as a family together.
And after we sang,
the, the preacher took us up
and said,
"Now look at this family."
That was our best.
From there,
it just obliterated to where
there's nothing left.
Ya know, we can all
point blame at each other,
we can all blame Dad.
None of us would
ever dare blame Mom.
Did Grandma ever
open up with you about it?
About how she felt?
Paul:
There was this one time
when I was real little.
It was just
a typical night.
And the bathroom door
was open,
so I kind of peeked my eye
into that little cr*ck,
and I looked and I saw her
standing in front
of the mirror
with a razor blade.
And she was just kinda
chopping at her hair,
and crying,
and her hands were bleeding.
So, I let the door
go open a little bit,
and I was like,
"Mom, please don't do that."
And she turned, and she was
shocked that I caught her,
and she bandaged
up her fingers,
and she cleaned up,
and she hugged me,
and...
she felt like
she had failed us.
I know that that
was somethin' that
she carried with her.
We're less of a family
than we've ever been.
And God forbid
that the fallout just
continues to grow.
Bill (in video):
Hello, darling.
-Debi (in video):
Hi, how are ya?
-Bill: Hi. I'm great.
How are you?
Hello, gorgeous.
Bill:
Then your precious,
wonderful mother
put this together.
So...
-There she is.
-Debi: She was so pretty.
Bill:
She was. She was a sweet doll.
Amanda:
Can you share some
memories of Grandma?
Like, how did you guys meet?
Bill:
We met at church.
They had a Bible study
on a Wednesday night.
We started dating,
and so, we were dating
for about, uh, three months,
and we--
then we got engaged.
(film projector rattling)
(light music playing)
Oh, she was so precious.
I mean, so precious.
She was great with the kids.
She couldn't
do anything wrong.
She was such
a marvelous, wonderful woman.
Amanda:
What about your life
before then?
What was it like growing up?
Bill: Hm.
Well, I don't know where
I would even start with that.
Um...
my mom was this marvelous,
wonderful, great woman.
She was fantastic.
Dad,
he was always a busy guy.
He worked at Zippo lighters.
And, of course, he loved
the girls there, too.
He went out with quite
a few of the women, so.
He'd come home
with lipstick all over
his face,
and his clothes off,
or his collars and stuff
'cause you know darn well
he was smoochin' up
with the women
at Zippo parties.
Although,
Mom didn't complain any.
If she, she did, she didn't
do it in front of me, but.
But anyway,
that's beside the point.
He and I were not very close.
He wanted a girl so bad,
he didn't want a boy.
And if I did something
outta line,
I got a b*ating for it.
It was a tough time.
Amanda:
Um... this--
You can answer
this if you want.
I'm just curious.
Curiosity k*lled the cat.
-That's right.
-Amanda: Um...
as you were growing up,
did your attraction
stay with children?
Yeah, pretty much.
I think most of my life
it did, yes.
You know, I-I just couldn't
seem to control it too much.
It just went that way.
(tense, energetic music playing)
Amanda:
Was there anybody
that you ever
felt like you could
talk to about it?
Did you ever open up?
(sighs)
I wished I could've.
I really did wish--
I-I wanted to talk to somebody,
but I didn't know
who I could really talk to.
The girls were
so special to me.
The girls were always so,
so warm and nice, ya know?
So, I was explaining to (bleep)
of how babies came about.
And, uh, we more or less
experimented that
at that point.
And, of course, naturally,
she's a little bit--
Uh, just... feeling with her
and so forth.
And then she would lay
on top of me.
(unsettling music playing)
(music fades out)
(Amanda sighs, sniffles)
Because of all this...
I've been thinking a lot about,
which I-I usually don't.
I feel like when I think about,
you know, my own experience
being r*ped by--
(sniffles)
It was around
nine years ago,
and--
by my friend's boyfriend
at the time.
And
it was a mess, it was a mess.
It was--
Took me years to even, like,
use the "R word," and...
(deep breath)
I do feel like I've
dealt very well with it,
but, occasionally,
it crops its head up,
and what it is
for me is just that
the guy who did it
and my friend,
who was dating him,
who victim-blamed me
when I told her about it, um...
It's just knowing
that they don't-- (sniffles)
(trills lips) f*ck.
It's just knowing that...
they do not think that
they did anything wrong.
What's still missing is, is
just, just that acknowledgment,
ya know, of...
of, like, it happened,
ya know, from the people
that were involved.
It, it f*cking happened,
and not having that,
it's just the gift
that keeps on giving.
Truly. (sniffles)
(solemn music playing)
It feels very crystal clear
to me right now
why I'm making this film.
Just that acknowledgment.
I don't think that
I'm gonna receive that closure
for my own as*ault,
but if I can give that to...
the women that suffered
at the hands
of my grandfather,
if I can be the one
to step forward,
and on the record, say,
"He did this.
You can't f*cking deny it."
If it gives them
the peace of mind
of, of knowing
that their pain
is acknowledged,
and that the work they've
had to do over the years,
and that weight
that they've had to carry,
(sniffles)
is acknowledged, then...
it's the very f*ckin'
least that I can do
as the granddaughter
of this piece of sh*t.
(sniffles)
(tense music playing)
(music softens)
These are letters
for people that Grandpa
may have impacted.
"Dear Blank,
I'm writing to you
as you may have been
"a past patient
of William Flickinger,
"based on his paperwork.
"I discovered
that he had abused
"scores of girls
and young women,
"and I'm in the process
of seeking accountability
"for my grandfather's actions,
"and helping those
who have been abused by him
feel less afraid to speak out
if they so choose."
I feel very nervous doing this.
Just feel like
every one of these is
dropping a little b*mb
in these people's lives.
"If this message
isn't relevant to you,
please disregard.
"If it is relevant,
we deeply apologize
on behalf of our family
for what he put you
or your loved ones through."
Have you talked
to any of the people
that you may have hurt?
And maybe apologized?
That has not materialized.
Now, her brother,
has been the instigator
to try and do that.
Amanda:
Who?
Paul.
That I should go.
I should write letters,
or I should go
and talk to these people.
And to a point,
I can understand what
he's comin' from.
But I haven't got
the guts to do that.
Because if this opened up
a can of worms,
well then, are they gonna
decide to take this to court
and send me to prison
for the rest of my life?
And that's what could happen.
Amanda:
But wouldn't that
just be a consequence?
Bonnie (over computer):
When I have...
thoughts about
your grandfather,
he's still that big,
bad boogeyman
in my
childhood mind.
This started when
I was 4 years old
at Herd Chiropractic.
I was, I was, I was little.
Mm-hmm.
So, he would see us either
at his chiropractic office,
which he ended up having
my mom work for him,
which brought us in more.
He got so comfortable
doing what he was doing to me
that he would do it in front
of my younger siblings.
Mm-hmm.
And I remember the one time,
he tried to make it seem
like it was a normal exam...
-Mm-hmm.
-...where I had to take
my pants down
or pull my dress up,
and, and, um,
I was crying,
and I was like,
"Please, can I pull
my pants up, please?"
-I was begging him,
just bawling.
-Mm-hmm.
-I was so embarrassed, um...
-(deep inhale)
So, all I remember
is looking over,
and Matthew had come over,
and started
b*ating on his leg,
-"Leave my sister alone,
leave my sister alone!"
-Mm.
Ya know?
And he grabbed him
by his throat,
picked him up,
and put him
back in the chair,
and told him not to move.
And nobody knew.
And I'm thinking,
"My mom is in the next
room with Lois."
-Amanda: Grandma.
-So, for a long time--
Yeah. How can they not
bust through that door
and help me?
I didn't necessarily
hold a grudge against
your grandmother,
but I was like,
"How could she not
have known?"
Her name is not Lois.
Did you know that?
-Bonnie: No!
-Her name is Salesta,
and he hated her name so much
that he had
everyone call her Lois
and made her go by Lois.
I'd love to say that
I'm shocked, but I'm not.
So her name is Salesta.
(chuckles)
-Thank you for that. Wow.
-Yeah.
Bonnie:
After everything he did,
not only to me,
but to so many others,
I've realized it's not
my secret to keep.
It was his.
Everyone has always
said you have to forgive,
forgive or you're
gonna burn in hell.
f*ck the word "forgive."
I hate it.
What I need to do in my life
to get past
the emotional barriers
that are holding me back
at 4 years old, 6 years old,
being in a courtroom
having to face him
while he sat there like this,
staring at me the whole time.
I would just love,
in my lifetime,
to hear him say,
-"I hurt you."
-Mm-hmm.
"And I had
no right to do that.
And I acknowledge
that I hurt you."
(pensive music playing)
(ambient street noise)
Amanda:
So, I've been trying
to make sense of
a lot of things,
the timeline,
I've even been talking
to a victim from your clinic.
But back in 1979,
I believe you took Bill to court
for a lot of sexual misconduct
that happened towards
your employees and patients.
So, I-I'm curious
if you know why he wanted
to come here, to Harrisburg?
I think things were
difficult for him there.
I think he was
having difficulty there.
-Amanda: Up in Bradford?
-Yes.
Amanda:
Okay, but you-- they--
there wasn't any information
about the, the nature
of what was going on?
Not at that-- Well...
(Barbara clears throat)
I may have
contacted his pastor,
and there may have been
that, you know, "Be cautious,"
and things like that around.
-There was a warning.
-Yeah, I think there was
a warning given to us that
there could be some problem,
but I... I may have
just brushed that aside,
and, and said I'd be careful.
-We were deceived to believe.
-Well, well--
-We, we were deceived.
-We, we had thought--
Before he came down,
we had thought he turned,
you know, new leaf, that he--
-We didn't, didn't know that--
-I didn't know what happened
up there.
Did you know what happened?
I didn't know.
No, we knew there
was problems, that's all.
Well, I didn't know
what the problems were.
I was ignorant to that fact.
But if I would've known,
he would've never
been in our office.
Ever.
Amanda:
When did you first recognize
that something was wrong?
Jack Herd:
Well, apparently, a, a young
girl had come into the office.
This girl was 13 years old.
And he asked,
he says, "Come on back,
I'll check your spine."
And he had her take
her blouse off and her bra off.
It was another patient, too,
I thought was involved.
Jack:
Well, we're talkin'
about this right now.
But I thought it was
another patient was involved
who-- that really
made you so upset.
I don't know,
but then just shortly after
that time, Barb and I,
we had a housekeeper,
and, uh, she was with the kids.
She went down the basement,
and Bill was laying on top
of our 12-year-old girl.
-I just couldn't sleep.
I was so angry...
-Jack: Oh, well, absolutely.
...that there could be
a possibility that somebody
would harm one of my children,
or, or destroy our good name.
It really made me angry.
(fast-paced,
tense music playing)
I called an attorney,
and he came in,
and brought Bill in,
and we terminated him
right then.
-It probably was the next day.
-Oh, no, on the spot.
Jack:
And then filed a complaint
with the Chiropractic Board.
And they had a hearing,
and he had many, many people
come and defend him at that.
That caused a lot of
tension between...
-Our friends.
-Jack: ...our family
and our friends like that.
Yeah, we weren't
trying to destroy this man.
He was destroying himself.
Jack:
They did take his license
at that point.
Barbara Herd:
And then life went on,
except emotionally
getting over it.
I came to the place
where I said--
I just-- I told God,
"I give it to you.
Lord, I-I can't carry it.
It's too heavy for me."
Amanda:
So he lost his license,
but he did not go to prison.
What do you guys think would've
been the ideal situation?
-(Barbara chuckles)
-Jack: Well, I don't know, uh...
Prison. I don't, I don't--
I d-- I simply don't know.
My baser nature is I wanted
to get a g*n and sh**t him.
(laughs)
Amanda:
The case with the Herds
was one of a few
that he was involved with.
And ultimately,
none of them resulted
in anything
that would leave
a mark on his record.
It just feels like
the whole system failed.
There was nothing to stop him
from crossing state lines
and getting
a completely fresh start.
And that's what he did.
Him and Grandma
packed their lives into an RV
and they left the whole mess
that he made behind.
(folk music playing)
(music cuts out)
Bill (in video):
Cleveland, Ohio,
on this first day of March.
Tulsa, Oklahoma,
this beautiful state.
We're gettin' ready to go
to work here in Charlotte
at the, uh, Craft Show.
(music playing,
crowd chatter in video)
Samples of what you can do
with the Punch Connection.
vendor:
Come on in to the counter,
and we'll give you
the $10
gourmet waffle cutter.
Take home
as many as you like.
You could use
cabbage, carrots, celery.
Look, you're on TV.
Isn't that neat?
Now, if you take this
same bagging process,
and we use it in our freezer.
Amanda:
They became
traveling salesmen.
They went from one
state to another,
living in different
campgrounds.
And they were selling
vacuum sealers
and rubber stamps
at local trade shows.
And that's pretty much
all that we would know
about Grandpa
from those years,
if he hadn't brought
his video camera with him.
Uh-oh, you girls are on
"Candid Camera."
Bill:
Turn around and be
a star for me.
(light, uneasy music playing)
Bill: It isn't every day
we get to have
movie stars in our midst.
Oh, I'm not no movie star.
speaker: She really wants
you to tape her,
but she won't act like it.
young girl:
Don't, no.
No, there's more.
Will you get that off!
speaker: See?
You're scarin' her.
Come back to see us
at the Craft Show.
We're here.
Um...
(static)
Amanda:
When I watch these tapes,
I see a man
with a serious problem
who knows that he's
not gonna get caught,
and I can't help
but feel like
if there had just been
some way for him to get help,
how much of all of this
could've been prevented?
Oh!
Amanda:
But he just kept going
until the early '90s
when they landed in Florida,
and moved in next door
to a kid named Christine.
Christine (over phone):
So, I do have a question.
And, and I-I feel like
I should be able
-to ask this question.
-Amanda: Okay.
Christine: I want to know
how you found me.
Oh, of course, so my--
It was all in
my grandfather's paperwork.
Christine:
Okay. 'Cause, you know,
there's always that fear
that you put somebody in jail
and their family
wants to retaliate.
-Debi: Oh, my gosh.
-Of course, there is not
a single person in my family
that would, would defend him.
-Debi: Absolutely.
-Christine: Okay.
The day of the incident
he told me,
"You can trust me.
I'm a doctor."
-Oh, my God.
-Christine:
That's how he got me.
I remember, all of a sudden,
I'm down on the ground.
There he is on top of me.
He was like,
"If you tell anybody,
-I will k*ll your parents."
-Oh, my God.
Christine:
And I flipped out,
and I kicked him,
and I pushed him off of me.
And I grabbed my bike,
and I came back
into the trailer park.
And so, I took measures,
and my parents took measures,
and we went through court,
and they found him guilty.
You know, it was,
it was pretty dramatic
being on the stand,
but, you know,
I was so worried that
if he did that to me
would he do it
to somebody else?
(deep breath)
Oh, I mean, I-I--
Thank you for sharing that.
And I am--
I'm just so sorry.
I do want to say
how incredibly proud I am
that you, you did that
because there were
dozens and dozens
-over many, many years.
-Christine: Jesus Christ.
Amanda:
And he did not go
to prison until '92.
-So for that, we have you
to thank, and your courage.
-Debi: Mm-hmm.
Christine:
So, he never served
any prison until--
Until you.
(Christine chokes up)
Christine:
I didn't even know
he hurt so many people.
And I didn't want him
to do that to anybody else.
Like, I--
(tearful)
Hoo, sorry.
Can I talk
to your mom for a sec?
Oh, sure.
I'm right here, go 'head.
Christine:
Hey.
-How are you doing
through this?
-(both laugh)
Well, you know,
it's so interesting.
-I have learned that...
-Christine: Right.
...um, you can't
change the past.
All you can do is
change your future.
And I can't change what
either of my parents did,
but I have children, ya know,
that are all adults now,
and I...
tried to protect them
at all levels.
I was constantly watching him,
and making sure
that my kids were safe.
When I knew that they
were coming around,
I was watching him
like a hawk.
Angie:
When Grandpa did go to prison,
I can remember how she told me.
So, Mom had just come
in my room and said,
um, "I wanna talk
to you about somethin'.
"Did-- I just wanted
to let you know
"that Grandpa
went to prison
for," I think she did say,
"molesting a little girl."
And through clenched teeth,
'cause she really didn't
wanna get the words out,
I could tell... she said,
"Did he ever do
anything to you?"
And I never turned around.
I just said, "Mm-hmm."
And she turned around
and left the room.
There wasn't even a hug.
To this day, there's still
not been
a conversation about that.
-That's super painful.
-Yeah.
Is that Grandpa?
-Amanda: That is Grandpa.
-Angie: Wow.
Amanda:
This date is in prison.
That's '94.
I don't know about this one.
He did get out early.
I think two and a half years
-into the four-and-a-half-year
sentence.
-Oh.
-Amanda:
He got off on good behavior.
-Mm-hmm.
Amanda:
The chaplain was like,
"Oh, this is such
a trustworthy man of God."
And then,
him and Grandma just
bounced around Florida
for 20 years.
I just cannot even
wrap my head around
-what she dealt with every day.
-Yeah. Yeah.
Amanda:
There is a letter
she sent to you
as soon as Grandpa
went to prison.
(clears throat)
It gets me every time.
"Dear Angie,
Thank you for your lovely
letter and pictures.
"After three weeks,
it was possible for Grandpa
"to receive his in prison.
He likes it.
"He calls prison the 'big fish,'
just like Jonah.
"He's in there
because of his disobedience.
"He is now
crying out like Jonah
"to be delivered
from the belly of hell.
"And he is asking us
to forgive him, too.
(Amanda sighs)
(tearful)
"As for me, I'm sorry, too.
"Even though I've been
aware of this addiction
for a long time,
"and promised God
I would face it squarely
"when it raised its ugly head,
"I have failed miserably
in that department.
"I have found the ugly
addiction never sleeps,
"and I require sleep.
"And it is very sneaky.
"And there are many times
I'm not smart enough.
"Then both you
and your mom write me
"such beautiful letters
and cards saying,
"'We miss you. We love you.
Please come home.'
"And I think, 'Why?'
I'm a big part of this failure.
"Oh, Angie, please forgive me.
I do love you, honey.
Grandma."
-(sighs)
-That's, that's really sad.
-Do you remember this?
-No.
(Amanda sniffles)
So, it is confirmation
that she knew
that I did go through that.
(static)
Debi:
My mom just constantly
tried to smooth things over
all the time in her mind.
Just... wish things away
or pray 'em away.
I know that she couldn't
have been happy, at all,
living with my dad.
But growing up religious,
doesn't matter what kind
of abuse you go through,
divorce wasn't an option.
And, especially, back then.
You just-- You didn't do it.
"Until death do us part."
In 2012, I flew to Florida,
and when I got there,
she had lost between
30 and 40 pounds.
And I just told her, I said,
"I see what it's doing to you."
And I said,
"This is the last time
I'm gonna ask you."
I said,
"Will you come back with me?"
When she said,
"Okay, I'll do it,"
I started
planning in my mind,
"How do I get her outta here
without him k*lling us?"
I am like, "Okay, Mom.
"We are gonna get
far enough away
"that he's not gonna find us.
I'm gonna get everything
packed in the car."
We were about
a half an hour away,
and my dad called.
She, she looked at it,
and she goes, "It's him."
I could hear him yelling,
and he said, "Where are you?!
You are the worst daughter!"
How could I possibly
steal her away from him?
I just thought,
"We gotta get as far away
from here as we can."
It was an 18-hour drive
back to Pennsylvania.
It was the beginning
of the rest of her life.
I finally got her hooked up
with my doctor.
She was diagnosed
with colon cancer.
She ended up living
a little over two more years.
It was very sad.
I feel like she was such
a smart, intelligent,
beautiful woman
that had wasted her time
on someone that has destroyed
so many people's lives.
(melancholy music plays)
(tense, unsettling
music playing)
(ringback tone)
Amanda (over phone):
Hey, Bonnie.
Bonnie (over phone):
Hi, Amanda.
You had mentioned
you're back in Harrisburg,
and then I thought
the only eyes that
I've ever seen Harrisburg,
Pennsylvania, through
are with my
3-to-6-year-old eyes.
I want to go
to Herd Chiropractic Clinic,
and I just wanna be
heard and understood.
And I want to stand
in that driveway as an adult,
and know that nobody
can drag me in there.
And that way,
it'll be permanently
imprinted in my brain
that I'm safe now.
Amanda (over phone):
I am 100% here for that.
Absolutely.
(quiet chatter)
(anxious music playing)
-How you feelin'?
-Bonnie: I'm feeling nervous.
It's so strange being back here.
I've avoided it for so long.
-Like, deliberately
avoided coming back here.
-You're doin' it. Mm-hmm.
It's this white
building right here.
-Bonnie: Here on the corner?
-Yep.
Bonnie:
Okay.
I need to breathe.
(tense music playing)
(deep breathing)
(music stops abruptly)
(ambient street noise)
(distant siren wails)
(Bonnie sniffles, groans)
(Bonnie exhales)
Oh, my goodness.
(sniffling)
(office phone ringing)
This is different.
(indistinct chatter)
Just being in this building
makes me feel sick
to my stomach.
I need to breathe.
Oh, my God.
-Jack: Come on in here, kids.
Have a seat, okay?
-Amanda: Thanks so much.
-Bonnie: Yeah.
-Amanda: Thanks so much.
We got a lotta flack
down here, uh,
from people that Bill had,
uh, relationships with.
Between Bill and Lois's
house and here,
those were the two places
he would abuse me.
And it-it's taken me
a little over 40 years now
to come back to these places
and face them as an adult.
The Bible says that
we're forgiven
to the same degree we forgive.
It's God's love that
c-- allows us to forgive
and h-helps us to forgive
those that have abused us.
Bonnie:
I think that's what I struggle
with is thinking that
if I'm going to forgive someone
that, no,
I'm not going to forget,
and, no, I'm not going
to just immediately let it go.
It's, it's hard
to forgive someone who
doesn't ask for forgiveness,
or... think that
they did anything wrong.
You know?
Jack:
Yeah, you're never
gonna forget it.
I mean, that's--
I mean, that's, th-that's life.
We understand that, yeah.
And, and we wanna pray
with you before we leave
-just for-- Yes.
-Amanda: Yeah?
-Barbara: Absolutely.
-Okay.
Jack:
Pray, Barb, you pray
for 'em, honey. Pray.
Barbara:
Lord, we come into
your presence of praise
and into accordance
with thanksgiving.
Knowing that you're
the Lord, our God,
and you do all things well.
You heal our mind,
you heal our body,
you heal our spirit.
-Yes, you're
the healer, Lord. Yes.
-I ask Lord Jesus
that you will take my sister,
-and you'll pour your love...
-Jack: Yes, Lord Jesus.
-...and your love, love, love...
-Jack: Yes, yes, Jesus, yes.
-...into her mind,
body, and spirit.
-Jack: Yes.
-Yes, Lord.
-Let there be a release,
and a power of forgiveness
that will set her free totally
in her whole being.
-While we bless your name, Lord,
we know you're the God...
-Jack: We bless you.
-Thank you.
You are the healer, Lord.
-...of the now...
-Jack: Yep.
-...and the God of our future,
and you take care of us,
and we bless your name.
Thank you
for your healing, Lord,
for your healing power
in our sister.
Just fill her heart,
fill her spirit, Lord,
we pray in the name
of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Filling you
with love, forgiveness,
and healing
in Jesus's mighty name.
Amen.
(birds chirping)
(ambient street noise)
-Amanda: How ya feelin'?
-Sick.
(Bonnie chokes up)
(deep breathing)
(softly)
Yeah.
Amanda:
Do you want a hug
or you want some space?
-(softly) Space.
-Okay, that's fine.
Amanda:
Do you feel like God
has forgiven you?
Absolutely, because there's
no sin that can't be forgiven.
Except blasphemy
of the Holy Spirit.
You can be forgiven
no matter what you've done.
(ambient nature sounds)
-(answering machine beeps)
-Bill (on voicemail):
Hi, Debi.
I'm tryin' to reach ya, honey.
Daddy loves his daughter.
You're so precious.
-(answering machine beeps)
-Um, so, everything has gotten
so screwed up down here.
I'm not doin' too good
right now, and...
I'll just explain it to you
when I get a chance.
I'm, I'm waitin' for ya.
Thank you.
-(answering machine beeps)
-Hey, Deb, I've been
missin' you, honey,
and you don't seem
to pick up anymore.
I guess you don't
like me anymore.
Tomorrow, of course,
as you know, I have dialysis,
and... now I have to have
a fistula put in my arm.
I have a catheter
in my shoulder right now.
So at any rate,
I just want you
to keep me in prayer,
but ya know what's goin' on
with your old Pappy.
-(ringback tone)
-Amanda (over phone):
Hey, Mom.
Debi (over phone):
Hi, honey.
Amanda:
Okay, so you were saying--
Debi:
He definitely
has declined a lot.
He just sounded
very confused,
very weak, so.
Amanda:
How do you feel
knowin' he's fallin' apart?
Debi:
I don't know. I, I guess,
you know, even though
he's a horrible, awful person,
I still know him as my dad.
As messed up as he was.
You know?
-(answering machine beeps)
-Bill: All I get is this
darn voicemail thing.
I hate that thing.
Are you in a position
where you can call me?
Very important.
-(answering machine beeps)
-I don't understand this.
Why are you avoiding me?
-(answering machine beeps)
-I'm not your enemy,
I'm your dad.
I'd just as soon be dead.
That'd be the best
thing in the world
if it happened to me.
Maybe you'd agree
with that, too.
I don't know.
And I love ya.
Give me a call
back tonight, please.
Uh, it's, it's been
three days of hell,
that's all I can say.
Constant phone calls and texts,
and harassment, and oh, my gosh.
He needs somebody to manage
-him right now.
-Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Debi (over phone):
He's saying he's
frantically moving,
and, "I'm just
too old to do this."
And I could just tell
he wasn't telling me anything
and, and I said,
"Okay, Dad, what's goin' on?"
He says, "Well"--
He goes,
"Remember those young twins
that I was talkin' about?"
-Amanda (over phone): Oh, no.
-Debi: Yeah.
He said, you know,
"They aren't feeling
comfortable that I'm here."
And I knew
he wasn't lyin' to me.
So, I called
the manager of the place,
and he told me that,
"Your father has been
touching them
inappropriately,"
but, again, nobody
wants to press charges.
They just want him to move.
Amanda:
That exact reason is why
he's gotten away with this
for his entire life.
We're gonna go down
and see Grandpa
for the last time.
He is not doing-- Very poor
in his health, um,
in his final days.
I just picked up
a letter from my sister
that she wrote him.
So, if there's anything
you wanted me to say to him.
Bonnie (over computer):
I would love for you
to tell him
that his sick perversion,
to get off for a few minutes,
took the spirit and the life
out of a 4-year-old girl.
Amanda: Hm.
-Debi: Alright, I'd slow down.
-Amanda: Yeah.
Alright, it's here, yeah?
Okay.
(nurse laughs)
(Debi and nurse speaking)
resident:
How much longer
is it before dinner?
nurse:
One more hour.
-(indistinct)
-Yes.
-Bill: Hello!
-nurse: Hi, honey, it's me.
Can you hang up the phone?
It's something important.
(Debi takes deep breath)
(indistinct chatter)
Debi:
Hi, Dad.
(gasps)
I don't believe it.
Hello there, sweet--
Hi, girls, how are ya?
-Debi: How are you, Dad?
-Oh, I'm very good.
I've got a lotta pain
in my side today,
-but otherwise I'm okay.
-Amanda (softly): Sorry.
-Hi, Grandpa. Hi.
-Bill: Hi. Hi, sweetheart.
Oh, my gosh.
Debi:
Are you alright?
I'm okay. Thanks, honey.
-(Amanda chuckles)
-Appreciate you, baby.
We didn't mean to shock
ya too much.
No, it's wonderful. Thank you.
Wasn't sure if you'd
remember who I was.
-Of course!
-(Debi chuckles)
How could I ever forget
you or her? Either one.
-But.
-Debi: So, but tomorrow,
we can call it
a hang-out day,
-if you have the energy.
-Bill: Sounds good.
-(car door shuts)
-(car beeping)
Amanda:
Okay.
-Debi: (sighs) Oh--
-What do you think of the place?
It is really bad.
He's not lying when
he said it was a dump. (laughs)
But, ya know what,
it's this or prison.
-Yeah.
-Pick your worst.
-You know?
-Amanda: I'd prefer
prison for him.
(bird cawing)
You almost ready, Manny?
Amanda:
Yeah.
(sighs)
(Amanda clears throat)
It's crazy thinkin'...
how long I've thought
about doing this,
and it's just weird 'cause it's,
like, today's that day.
-Today is, is the day
ya say somethin'.
-Yeah.
(siren blaring)
(blinker clicking)
(deep breath)
I'm nervous but I feel...
ready.
Just plow through
the discomfort here.
So this is all that they
said that you have left.
Oh, my God, that's a lie.
Amanda:
So there's some pictures here.
So we have
pictures of Grandma,
-and Ange, your kids.
-Yep, yep, yep. Yep.
Amanda:
Who's that?
You know,
I don't know who that is.
-I'm not sure.
-Oh, I see, Dad,
I see your diabetes.
-Mm-hmm. Look at this.
-Amanda: Look at this.
Peanut butter M&M's,
cookies.
Bill:
Yeah, I have to carry snacks
because we don't get
enough to eat in this place.
Debi:
Alright, Dad, this is gonna
be on your top shelf.
You, you really don't.
-Amanda: Okay.
-Alright.
Amanda:
Alright. Ya good?
-You can stay there.
-Debi: No, stay. Sit down, Dad.
No, I--
No, no, no, no, no, no.
That's not what
I'm after right now.
-Debi: What do you need?
-Amanda: Okay.
My telephone over there.
Oh, we see it's
charged, charged.
Bill:
Yeah, just pull the cord.
But I gotta have-- must have
a picture of that lady, too.
cameraperson (nervously):
Uh, I'll stay on this side
-of the camera.
-(chuckling)
Bill:
It isn't every day that
we get a movie star in here.
Oh.
-I'm so glad to meet you.
-(camera clicking)
And so glad you came.
Amanda:
Alright. Now, do you mind if
we take some pictures outside?
-No.
-Okay.
Bill:
(groans) Oh, my goodness.
I just have to go--
kinda go slow.
Well, go slow, Dad.
That's fine.
Where are we lookin'?
-Amanda: Just towards me.
-(Bill mumbling)
-Amanda: One, two...
-What?
-Amanda: ...three.
-Never mind.
-Amanda: One, two, three.
-(camera clicks)
Debi:
I can't believe he said
I look like your mother.
(laughter)
-Bill: No, ya look great, honey.
-Debi: Uh-huh.
-You really do. I'm serious.
-Yeah, whatever.
Amanda:
You do look great
right now, Mom.
You do, honey.
You're, you're terrific.
If you only knew
what I've been through.
Amanda:
Alright, will ya look up
at her for a second?
-So what have you been through?
-(camera clicks)
Amanda:
Up at her. Whoop.
Can ya get that far?
-(Amanda chuckles)
-I think can.
Amanda:
Alright, great.
Now what time is, uh, dinner?
-Five, right?
-At five o'clock if--
I don't know. I--
-Okay.
-A lotta times,
I don't even try to eat.
-I know, but you need
to, Dad, if you can.
-Thank you, Mama.
-Stop calling me your mother.
-(Bill laughs)
-Amanda: Okay.
-I knew that'd get to her.
-Debi: Good God.
-Amanda: Now, there's, um,
there's somethin' I just
wanna ask you real quick.
Do you wanna,
do you wanna say bye?
-cameraperson: Okay. Yeah.
-Okay.
cameraperson:
I'm gonna-- She just--
I'm gonna go to the car.
It was very nice to meet you.
Bill:
Oh, it's a pleasure.
You're absolutely gorgeous,
by the way.
-cameraperson: Thank you.
-Bill: So, I thank you.
I'm blessed to have
you down here.
-cameraperson: Bye.
-Bill: Where ya goin'?
Amanda:
She's goin' to the car.
-We have to talk
to you about somethin'.
-Bill: No! Come on back here.
Debi:
No, Dad, it's alright,
it's alright.
She's gotta get
her stuff ready to go.
Bill:
I just wanted to get
a picture of her, though.
Amanda:
Now,
I'm gonna put this down.
I just wanted us
-to be able to...
-Here, I'll hold it, hon.
-I'll hold it.
-...to have a minute.
Um, oh, I'm gettin'
a picture taken.
-Debi: Good deal.
-Amanda: Alright, so I just
wanted to--
-Oh, God, I'm gonna cry.
-Debi: Don't cry.
(Amanda crying)
(Bill speaking)
Grandpa, I just need you
to listen to me for a second.
-I'm listening.
-There are two people
that... sent me--
Can you do this?
(sniffles) I'm sorry.
There is...
two people that,
you know, we always want
wholeness between people,
and they asked us to send you
some mess-- a message,
and we want you
to hear it, okay?
Um... because we want
everybody to be whole
in this dysfunctional stuff
that we go through.
So, we just want ya
to listen to this, okay?
-I'm all ears.
-Okay.
So, the first one...
is from Ange.
She sent you
an audio message
to listen to.
Okay.
I hope you can hear it.
Angie (on recording):
Grandpa, I wanna start off
by telling you
that I love you dearly
and I'm thankful
to have you as my grandpa.
I suffered
many years of my life
by the trauma
I endured as a child
moving into your home
with my mom
where I was
subjected to sexual abuse
for many years at your hand.
I've learned to push
everything under the carpet,
just like the family did.
I do not want to hold anger
and bitterness in my heart,
and I pray you get
your life right with God
before it's too late.
Love,
your granddaughter,
Angie.
Amanda:
Can you stand here?
Bill:
Thank you.
-What are your thoughts
on that, Dad?
-Well.
Do you wanna say anything
in response to Ange?
I can send her back a message.
Yeah, 'cause
we wanted to s-- you to,
ya know,
send messages to people
like we're sending
a message to you,
so what would you--
Do you wanna
say something to her?
Amanda:
Okay.
Hello, Angie.
This is Grandpa.
Hey, um, that, that was quite
a message you sent me,
and I appreciate it,
and I thank you,
and I, uh, am deeply sorry
for all the different things
that happened in my life,
in your life,
and, and, and, and your mom,
and, uh, it was not
done purposely,
but yet, these things
do happen sometimes.
Sometimes,
we do stupid things,
and I, I have to admit that
I was many times very stupid.
So, thank you
for leveling with me.
It's wonderful.
God bless you, honey,
and I believe we're
gonna walk the streets
of glory together one day.
Amanda:
Okay, um,
I-I, I do have,
I have one more. Sorry.
Now this is from a woman
named Bonnie Dillard.
(Amanda chokes up)
Can I at least--
You don't have to say anything,
but it's important.
She asked--
She reached out to our family.
Well, how 'bout if you walk away
-and I'll let him
listen to-- Okay?
-I can walk away.
Would you like me to walk away?
I'll, I'll let you just hear it.
You and I. Okay?
Alright, it's just for healing
for them, Dad. Okay?
Debi:
Alright.
Alright.
(sniffles)
Alright.
Bonnie (on recording):
He, he, he did what
he did to get off
for a few minutes...
but what I don't
think he knows
is that he took...
the life,
the spirit
of this little girl
that affected
that little girl
for the rest of her life.
And he didn't have
the right to take that.
It wasn't his to take.
It was, it was soul-crushing.
(solemn music playing)
(Debi takes deep breath)
So, I don't know.
Do you wanna say
anything to her?
Okay. Alright.
Is there anybody else
you wanna send a message to?
(bleep), Paul, anybody?
Nobody?
-Not really.
-Amanda: Okay.
She'll get your walker
and I'll take you.
Yeah, I'll be right back.
(Bill groaning)
Get him there,
and I'll be right back.
Okay. Alright, Grandpa,
I'm gonna give ya a hug.
Bill:
Oh, you still want to?
-Yep.
-Bill: Thank you.
Debi:
Dad, do you need--
have your wallet,
all of that with you?
I know you--
-Bill: Yes, I do.
-Okay. Alright.
-Let's go.
-Amanda: Alright.
Debi: Alright.
I'll be right back to the car.
Amanda:
Okay, I'll see ya.
Bill:
I still have to answer
to an almighty God.
And I have to stand
before him one day,
and I'm not gonna be able
to lie to him whatsoever
because he knows everything.
-(car beeping)
-(car door shuts)
(sighs)
(crying)
I did not expect
that to be so hard.
Oh, God.
nurse: Mr. William,
open your beautiful eyes.
Bill:
And no matter what
we've done in the past
as we come to Him
and we repent
asking Him
for that forgiveness,
Christ will forgive.
No matter how awful
we have been.
And we're bound
for Heaven then, definitely.
(machine beeps)
(ambient street noise)
Amanda:
Yeah, let's do
the small one first.
(straining)
Let me put this over here.
This is all
that's left of Grandpa.
(sighs) Scissors.
(sing-songy)
Scissor, scissor, scissors
Okay, let's do this.
-Alright.
-World's worst unboxing video.
Debi:
Oh, wow.
Hm.
-Amanda:
Little picture of Grandma.
-That's shocking.
Amanda:
Oh, my God, this is so creepy.
Debi:
Well, who is it?
(sighs)
Just an empty wallet
and... pictures of this woman.
This is weird.
It is very weird.
What do you do
with these things?
We have to be careful,
we don't-- Oh, my gosh. Gross.
Is this one
of his matching outfits?
-Hello.
-(chuckles) Hello, yellow.
-Hello.
-(Debi chuckles)
Oh, here's a brand-new coat.
Never wore. Is it his or...?
-It is nice. (laughs)
-I told you!
-Oh no!
-I can so see you--
Oh, conflicted.
(chuckles) How cozy is that
when you go to New York?
-Conflicted.
-Conflicted.
Conflicted.
Let's just put
this one to the side.
(camera clicking)
-(laughs) I can't.
-(both laughing)
(laughing)
I'm sorry.
We need some laughter
in all this hideousness.
(laughs)
-You just sitting amongst--
-I know, smelly clothes.
(Amanda laughs)
I don't know.
Like, is there something
wrong with us?
That we laugh?
-Hm, that's
an interesting question.
-(both chuckling)
-I don't know.
-(Amanda clears throat)
It's not a nervous laugh,
I think it's more
of a... a relief kinda.
And it's just kinda strange.
After all we've been through
all those years with him,
and... this is it.
You know, it's freeing,
but it's also just
very strange, so.
-Mm-mm.
-(Amanda clears throat)
(camera clicks)
Amanda:
Well, you certainly know
that he had no taste in clothes.
-(Amanda chuckles)
-Debi: Oh, yeah. Knew that.
Same with my mom.
I do find myself dressing
like her sometimes now.
I didn't wanna say anything.
(both laughing)
(uneasy music playing)
Amanda:
Okay.
(FaceTime ringing)
-Hello.
-Hello!
Well, I am calling
with good news
that he passed away last week.
And then it was,
like, a, a frantic rush
to just get his body
donated to science
so nobody had
to deal with it.
-Wow.
-Yeah.
No funeral, no nothin'.
It's just--
People just want to move on.
-Interesting.
-Yeah.
Well, how are you feelin'?
-About this?
-Mm-hmm.
Ya know, there's the apology
that will never come.
I don't think
it would've come anyway.
I feel like he can't ever
hurt anyone else ever again.
Amanda:
Mm-hmm.
Um...
I mean, I'm happy...
I'm happy.
Are you okay?
I mean, I know he's
your grandfather.
I'm really sorry.
Um, yeah. No, I-I'm o--
I'm obviously okay with it.
But I've been having, like,
back-and-forth feelings
of just, like, a lot of anger
because I think there's
still accountability to be had
and continuing
to, to just talk about it.
And I feel very, like,
firm in what I'm doing
and that I should be
talking about this, so.
You know, it, it feels like
a lot of responsibility,
you know, like,
trudgin' up people's stuff,
but I also feel like
by not talking about it
is giving him what he wants...
-Bonnie: Mm-hmm.
-...you know?
And I feel like, if anything,
I want that silence to stop
in my family here.
Debi:
You can go straight, baby,
it's a lot quicker.
-Amanda: Yeah?
-Debi: Mm-hmm.
Amanda:
Are you nervous at all or no?
Debi: No.
Why would I be?
Amanda:
I mean, I think that there
are some things that Ange...
is holding in around this
that you guys could,
could talk about.
I don't want...
to be like Grandma
and die with any
secrets or regrets.
Yeah. Yeah, it's just,
for you guys to heal,
I think you're really
gonna have to listen to her.
Alright, here we go.
(sighs)
-Hi, puppers! Alright.
-Debi: Hi, Roscoe!
-(dogs barking)
-Hi, Roo. Hi, hon.
(indistinct chatter)
(laughter)
Amanda:
That should be okay.
Manny, here's your coffee.
Well, there is one,
and here's one.
-They're both the same.
-Angie: Amanda,
do you need sugar?
-Debi: And there's milk.
-Um, no, I'm okay.
I get stressed
going through this footage
because it's, like,
there's so much of it,
and, like, I--
(fast-forwarding footage)
Amanda (on computer):
As far as younger girls,
what about the girls
in the family?
Oh, God, it's just nauseating.
Even just hear--
starting to hear it.
Amanda (in video):
And then, Ange,
anything with Ange?
Bill (on computer):
The only thing
I can remember--
Nothin' that I remember--
I was only--
One time I was with Angie
that I recall.
Um... she was gonna--
Uh, her mom was comin' over
and she was leavin' Angie,
and, uh... she wanted
to go to the bathroom.
So, I went in with her,
and I sat down on the potty
without my clothes on.
And she took her panties off,
and she sat on my lap,
and I rubbed her a little bit.
And that was the--
that was it.
But, lo and behold,
at that particular moment,
her mom came home.
And that's when--
And she went out then
t-to her mom.
That was the only thing
that ever took place
that I am aware of.
Unless I was dreaming,
but that's the only thing--
See that is the only time
I remember, ever.
Bill (in video):
Nothing ever happened
with you.
Well... I feel that,
and this isn't something
I've ever wanted to say,
but--
(sighs) Okay, so,
half of this issue
(nervous laugh)
(tearful)
is because I was placed in it.
-Okay?
-Amanda: Let me get the tissues.
(Angie crying)
And the thing is,
is I'm healed
of this part of it,
but half of this issue
is not knowing
why I was willingly
put into something
-that you knew
somebody did this.
-Debi: Mm-hmm.
(sniffles)
So, those are my only
current issues with it.
It's not that
any of this happened,
I mean, yeah, that's not good.
But... I feel like
I'm past that.
I know all that's wrong,
I've been healed of it--
Oh, thank you.
You found tissue-- (laughs)
Amanda:
(laughs) I don't know
where the tissues are.
Angie:
(coughs) Excuse me.
(sniffling)
But I feel that
a lot of our relationship
is based off of just
a mistrust there
because of not feelin'
like I understand
why I would've been
put in that,
and never had
an avenue to talk about it.
So, to hear you, like, just talk
about it so casually sometimes,
I had, like,
a hair issue or somethin'.
That was my way
of internalizing that,
and just...
taking it out on myself
because there was nobody
that was w-willing to listen,
or cared to listen,
or bring it up.
And I had no one to talk to.
(crying)
Alright, from my end,
you know, and I'm sorry
that anything happened,
whether... I knew it or not...
-Angie: Mm-hmm.
-...because I honestly
remember the one time.
All that I was going
through with the divorce,
I had nowhere else to go.
I didn't have a job.
I had to find a job.
And that's when Grandma said,
"Well, you can stay here."
And I remember talking
to her and saying,
"You promise me you
will take care of Ange?"
I knew that Grandma loved you,
and that she would,
hopefully, protect you.
I didn't know
all that was going on.
To me, it's, it's
a whole, like, circle around
because it's,
"Well, I had to go through this.
I had this.
I had this bad stuff."
You know, is what
I always hear from you.
But it's--
No matter what
my stuff I went through,
it's never as big as what
you've had to go
through as a mom.
I haven't ever had, like,
a mom that has wanted to care.
It's more about
what you went through.
I don't really have
an answer. I don't.
I believed
that after that one time
that I confronted him
that he would've
never done it again.
And that was truly my belief.
(tense music playing)
(sighs) So, this morning,
we were supposed to go
over to my mom's
to just do some
basic interview questions,
and--
I mean, I could tell that there
was some tension yesterday,
and she just sent me a message
canceling the interview,
which is a...
an understatement.
"With the false accusations
and how you feel about me,
"and what you think I feel
about Ange is not true.
"You both keep expecting
apologies out of me
"for things that you think
I have been wrong in.
"I will defend myself
at all costs when I know
it is not true.
God knows what I've put up with
in my life. No more."
(ringback tone)
Hi, Mom, got your message.
Happy to talk
through this with you,
uh, so if you could call me back
when you can, I'd appreciate it.
Thanks.
I definitely didn't
see this coming,
but I would like to not have
my relationship with my mom end.
(gusty winds)
Debi (over phone):
I-I'm just sick
and tired of conflict,
sick and tired
of never meeting up
to the expectations.
I have bent over backwards
for everyone in this family.
No matter how much pain,
no matter how much
discomfort it's caused me.
So, I'm sorry...
but I can't do it anymore.
Amanda (over phone):
I'm, I'm very sorry
that it's come to that.
I feel like I've been
pushing more and more
because I thought
that it was...
helping to paint
a better picture for you
to know what to do.
If you know a bit more
about how Angie's feeling,
then you might know
how to respond.
-I've--
-Debi: Do you understand that
I do know what she feels?
-Because been there, done it.
-Uh, it's--
Debi:
I feel... like
you're all adults.
I've ruined enough
of your life.
I just slip out slowly,
everybody's happy.
-Everybody can do
what they want...
-Amanda: That's not true.
Debi:
...crazy mom's not there.
That's how I feel.
Amanda:
That's not how I feel at all,
and it's not how
Ange feels in any way.
We love you.
You're our mom.
Debi:
I love you guys, but...
when... I keep getting...
the accusatory things where...
it doesn't matter what I say,
it doesn't matter what I do.
It makes me feel
like the very best thing
is just packin' everything up,
and just never talkin'
to anybody again
because I've messed up
everybody's lives so much.
Amanda:
If I am sharing
my perspective of things,
I don't want you to feel
like that's an att*ck
because I think the one thing
that we've learned here
is that...
truth has multiple perspectives.
But I also want to stay open
to what each other are saying...
-Mm-hmm.
-...to possibly learn
something new.
I'm, like, not here
to att*ck, or judge,
or anything.
I'm not going to spend
my time and effort
-when I know what is true.
-Mm-hmm.
-And I'm being blamed
for something that's not true.
-Can we talk about that, though?
'Cause I just wanna understand
what you're talking about.
What do you feel has--
that has been said
about you is untrue?
There are things that have
been said about me that
um, that did not happen.
Can you tell me
specifically, though?
It's about many things that--
Okay, say somebody, uh, says--
Is-- But is-- Are--
I think the most
relevant example
is, like, that Ange was abused.
Do you feel any responsibility
for, not just that incident,
but all of the incidences
that Ange was abused
living with him?
Do you feel any responsibility
for h-- that having happened?
Of course, I feel responsible
because she's my kid
and I've always
wanted to protect her.
Yes, but then, again,
it was like I was guaranteed
that Grandma was gonna
not let her out of her sight.
And so, I trusted her.
I trusted her word.
But I-- in that conversation,
did both of you acknowledge
that you know
that Grandpa does this?
No, she did not
ever acknowledge it.
-Mm-hmm.
-And I'm angry at myself
that I didn't...
like, f-- kinda force her
to talk about it.
All along, I've known
that she's had to have known.
Um, how could you have
all these court hearings
and all the things and not know?
She knew, and I know that,
you know, at a certain point,
she realized, like,
she is... implicated.
She chose a side.
She chose to protect him
instead of her kids.
But we all need to take
responsibility for our role
in what Grandpa was able to do.
We have been driven to be
more angry with each other
and not Grandpa
when Grandpa is the reason...
-Mm-hmm.
-...for all of this tension,
all of the division.
I just want people
to be angry at him.
That's an unforgiveness
on your part.
There's a reconciling day
(chuckles) for every person
for what they've done
and unforgiveness is a huge one.
If we don't forgive somebody,
uh, we're held
accountable for that, too.
-So, I just--
-But how can you forgive
when nothing was done about it,
and he just kind of d*ed...
and just managed
to get away with it.
If you stay angry
and can't forgive somebody,
you're drinkin'
the poison yourself.
But the act of being
angry is saying,
"You know what?
I'm not gonna feel that way.
"f*ck that.
This isn't my fault,
this is your fault.
And you need to be
held accountable for this."
You've gotta let go.
And that's where I'm at.
This last leg of my life,
uh, I-I just want to agree
to disagree with people,
and just love 'em
where they're at
because you cannot change
where they're at.
Amanda:
I do understand wanting
to move forward,
but healing, to me,
is you have to talk
about the hard stuff
if you want to move past it.
(sighs)
(light music playing)
(birds chirping)
Amanda:
I think the bizarre thing
that's happening right now
is my mom is leaving
for the first time in her life.
She has bought an RV,
which is something
that runs in the family,
and is planning on leaving
Pennsylvania for the first time,
and, yeah, she's just
not gonna be here.
(solemn music playing)
Now that she's leaving,
it's just kind of like,
"We tried."
And I just have to do
what's best for myself.
"Dear Mom,
"we've gone months
without talking,
"and have had
countless fights.
"Moments where
I wasn't sure
"we'd ever speak again.
"Banging our heads
against the wall
"to try and feel
understood by each other.
"Even though
there are many ways
we will never see eye-to-eye,
"I have such immense
respect for you
for where
you've gotten in life,
despite all the odds."
(deep breath)
I feel like she
can't give to us...
-Amanda: Mm-hmm.
-...what she herself doesn't
know to do for herself.
She's doing what
she has always done.
Amanda:
We just have to keep
moving forward.
-As much of a shitstorm
as all this is, you know.
-(Angie laughing)
Mom's doin' better than Grandma,
you're doin' better than Mom,
-and your kids are
gonna do better than you.
-Right.
It makes me very excited
and very proud that...
I chose a different way,
that my girls won't
have to walk through.
You know, and hopefully,
it propels them to be
better versions
of themselves, earlier,
where I had to walk
through a lot of crap
to become...
the best me.
(child laughing)
(light music playing)
Amanda:
"I don't regret holding
you accountable
"for letting Ange down.
"But I also understand
that living in survival mode
"when you don't even know
how to protect yourself
"is a reality that's
hard to explain,
"but that so many
can relate to.
(tearful)
"Many people do not survive
the abuse you have,
"let alone survive facing it.
"I'm so sorry that you
were abused by your dad,
"and that your mom looked on.
"It must've been very lonely,
"and while it
wasn't your fault,
"it breaks my heart
"to imagine the shame
that you felt.
"And now that
is what makes me angry.
(sniffles)
"You deserved better.
"You deserved to be heard
and to be seen
"and to feel safe and
protected by your parents.
"It would take us longer
than we'll ever be alive
"to ever fully
understand the ways
"we've each been shaped
by Grandpa's abuse.
"But it's my hope,
that with space, time,
"and individual commitment
to unpacking who this
has made each of us,
"that the gap
between us will all
be able to slowly close.
"I am honored
to have you as my mom,
"and to have taken
this journey with you
"as long
as we could together.
"And I hope that
in this next chapter,
you're able to find
the peace you deserve."
(starts engine)
I felt like
a big breath of fresh air
when I got off the phone
with her last night.
I always was thinkin',
"I'm just gonna have to be okay
with her not acknowledging,
you know, my pain."
So, um, I didn't know
that she ever would.
So, that was really good
that, ya know, that, that piece
feels, like, kinda
completed this for me.
-Ugh!
-So that's really good.
(laughs)
-I love it!
-(Angie laughs)
Going back
to Harrisburg was, like,
the beginning of my--
I don't know if you wanna call
it a journey or processing,
but, like, it took
everything in me that I had
to go back
to the Herd Clinic.
Sorry, my daughter's
trying to reach me.
She's nine-and-a-half
months pregnant.
Do you,
do you mind if I just--
I just wanna make sure
that we're good
-because if she's like,
"I'm in labor."
-Yes.
Okay.
Go have a grandbaby.
(laughs)
Great Photo, Lovely Life (2023)
Moderator: Maskath3