Avner, How are you?
Well, thanks, Colonel.
Yourself?
Good. Good.
Would you like
some coffee,
-something to eat?
-No, thank you.
My wife makes sure
I'm well-fed in the morning.
And how is Vera?
Uh, enjoying better health,
thankfully.
Glad to hear.
So...
Don't keep me in suspense.
What's all the fuss?
Eichmann.
Eichmann?
The architect
of the Final Solution?
So the press says.
They say it,
but you've got to prove it.
Prove it?
Yes.
The government
has entrusted the police
with the Eichmann
investigation.
I'm putting together a team,
a-- a group of officers,
to-- to build a case
aga-- against Eichmann.
They will gather together
whatever testimonies,
depositions, documents,
any evidence you need.
Build a case?
Surely there's
a mountain of evidence
against this man
for a conviction.
He was hiding
like a mouse in Buenos Aires.
Uh-- He even admitted
to Mossad that he was, in fact,
Adolf Eichmann.
So, what more
do you need?
We need specifics.
Details.
We need to know
what part he played in the SS
and what hand he had
in the Holocaust of our people.
What do you need
from me?
You've got
to interrogate him.
You must make him
confess his crimes.
General Salinger
signed off on you.
You suggested me
to Salinger?
I-- No.
I wouldn't do that to a friend.
He selected you.
He believes you are
the best man for the job.
You speak German
and you're one
of the most competent
criminal investigators
in Israel.
It won't be
an easy task, for sure.
It'll probably take, uh,
longer than three months.
Uh, and you
must be discreet.
You mustn't tell
your family, your friends,
even your wife.
You want me
to spend three months
in a room
with Adolf Eichmann?
My own personal
concentration camp.
And for what?
What's the point?
Why stir up all these years
of pain and grief?
It won't bring
the m*rder*d millions back.
He needs
a fair trial.
And someone's
got to do it.
I am Captain Less.
I am told that you
are willing-- eager in fact--
To tell of your role
in the Third Reich.
Very much so.
You are fully aware that
you are not being coerced,
that you testify
of your own free will.
And that the testimony can be
used as evidence in court.
Yes. Yes.
I notice
you're not wearing your badge.
We're trying
to be discreet.
That's one of the reasons
we've put you up in this motel.
By the way,
how do you find it?
There's a bed,
a bathroom, shower, kitchen.
There's no television,
but I can't complain.
Might I ask why all
this cloak and dagger stuff?
It's for
your own safety.
There are lots
of people out there
who would just
like us to hang you
and be done with it.
Well, I appreciate
your frankness.
I don't think
any successful interrogation
can be conducted without
a certain level of trust.
I understand
that you and I are colleagues.
I was once
a policeman, myself.
You were never
a policeman.
You were in the SS.
Is that so?
Well, I'm not afraid
of the police.
I know them.
The courts
are something else, however.
I've never been
on trial before.
Please. Sit down.
Before we start, Captain,
I would just like to say
that my role in what happened
between 1933 and 1945
was a passive one.
The best way
to put it would be to say
that I was a small cog
in the gigantic machine
that was
the Third Reich.
Let's begin
with your curriculum vitae.
Well, I was born
in March 19th, in 1906,
at Solingen
in the Rhineland.
My father
was a bookkeeper
for the Solingen Light
and Power company.
That was the name,
more or less.
In 1913, he was transferred to
the Linz Power and Light Company
in Linz
on the Danube.
Probably in connection
with the loan
that the AEG
had with an Austrian company
that he was the commercial
director of until 1924.
In 1914, he moved
his family to Austria.
So, from 1914 on,
I lived in Linz
on the Danube in Upper Austria
with my parents,
my brothers and sisters.
Suppose we go
back a little.
What was
your father's name?
My father's name
was Adolf Karl Eichmann.
Do you have any brothers
or sisters, Captain?
What?
Are your parents
still alive?
I feel like I'm telling you
all about myself.
But I know
nothing about you.
Perhaps
I'll tell you later.
Oh, I hope so.
Well, my mother's name was Maria
Eichmann, nee Schefferling.
But aside
from economic considerations,
I had other reasons
for wanting to get away,
to leave Austria
and go to Germany.
Even in my school days,
we had political groups--
All perfectly harmless,
of course.
Nationalists,
socialists, monarchists.
The kind of things
youngsters went in for
without thinking
about it very much.
For instance, you'd join the
monarchists or the nationalists
just because you had a good
friend in one of those groups.
That was the first
political talk I had heard.
At home, the subject
was never mentioned.
My father
had no interest in politics.
I had
an old friend in Linz.
His name was
Friedrich von Schmidt,
son of Field Marshal
von Schmidt,
whom I never
met because he died
before I made friends
with his son.
The family was enormously
proud of the father
because he'd risen from private
to field marshal lieutenant
in the days
of Emperor Franz Joseph.
So, he must have been
a very brave, fine,
upstanding soldier,
a-- and a fine, upstanding man.
My friend's mother
had been a countess so-and-so,
a very distinguished family.
They were still living
with the old ideas.
But when my friend, Friedrich,
would forget his fine manners,
then he was
just a good fellow.
Naturally, he associated
mostly with military men.
And one day,
he persuaded me
to join the Young
Veterans Association,
the youth section of the German
Austrian Veterans Association.
"Public need before public
greed," was its slogan.
It was the only organization
that dared march the streets.
Most of the members
were monarchists,
some Christian-orientated,
and only a vanishing
minority were nationalists.
National socialism
was still unheard of.
So, most of you
were loyal to Austria?
Around 1931,
there was friction
between the nationalists
and the monarchists.
You don't have
any cigarettes, do you, Captain?
The ones the guards give me
simply aren't good enough.
You can't
smoke in here.
But if you like,
I'll request
your cigarette
ration to be increased.
Ah, thank you.
Anyway,
around that time,
the SA were marching
through the streets.
The SS were trying
to recruit members
of the Young
Veterans Association.
One day, the n*zi Party,
or NSDAP,
as they called themselves,
held a mass meeting
in a large
Bavarian-style beer hall.
My friend,
Ernst Kaltenbrunner,
came straight up to me.
His father
was a lawyer in Linz.
His father and my father had
business dealings for decades.
Ernst spoke
to me straight.
He said,
"You will join us."
I said, "All right."
So, I just
sort of fell into it.
Fell into it?
I joined the SS.
Just like that?
Well, that's the way it was
done in those days.
No fuss.
I won't be home
for dinner.
It's the Colonel.
He's got me on something big.
No,
I can't talk about it.
All right.
I love you, too.
Kiss the kids
good night for me.
We've touched on the Final
Solution of the Jewish Question.
Would you like
to speak about that now or...
about the w*r
with Russia, first?
The Final Solution.
Yes, well,
it's mixed up
with something that happened
after the start
of the German-Russian w*r.
At the time, Reich Marshal
Goering issued a document
conferring a special
title on the chief
of the Reich main
security office, Heydrich.
The Reich main
security officer's duties
were to eliminate
all enemies of the Reich,
both domestic and abroad.
I'm trying to remember
the wording of the title.
Was it...
Depu--
Deputy Charge with the...
Final Solution?
Or with the solution
of the Jewish problem?
Anyway, the w*r
with the Soviet Union
began in 1941,
I believe.
And I believe
it was two or three months later
that Heydrich
sent for me.
He began
with a little speech.
And then
he said to me,
"The Fuhrer has ordered
physical extermination."
These were
his exact words.
And as though wanting
to test their effect on me...
he made a long pause,
which was not at all his way.
I can still
remember that.
Initially, I didn't grasp
the imc-- implications,
because he chose
his words so carefully.
But then I understood.
I didn't say anything.
I mean, what could I say?
Because I'd never
thought of such a thing,
such a violent solution.
And then
he said to me, "Eichmann...
go and see
Globocnik in Lublin."
Who?
He-- he was head
of the SS and the police
in the Lublin
district in Poland.
As ordered,
I went to Lublin,
located the headquarters
of the SS and police,
and I told Globocnik
that Heydrich had sent me
because the Fuhrer
had ordered
the physical extermination
of the Jews.
Globocnik sent me
with one of his staff members.
I don't remember
the place was called--
I get them mixed up.
I couldn't say
if it was Treblinka
or somewhere else.
There were patches
of woods, uh, sort of.
And the road passed
through a Polish highway.
On the right side of the road,
there was an ordinary house
where the workers lived.
A captain of the regular
police welcomed us.
A few workmen
were still there.
The captain
had taken off his jacket
and rolled up his sleeves,
which surprised me.
Somehow he seemed
to be joining in with the work.
They were building
little wooden shacks,
two or maybe
three of them.
They looked like two-
or three-room cottages.
My escort told
the police captain
to explain
the installation.
He had a vulgar,
uncultivated voice.
Maybe-- maybe he drank.
He told me how he had
made everything airtight.
It seemed
they were going to hook up
a Russian submarine engine
and pipe the exhaust
into the houses
and the Jews inside
would be poisoned.
I-- I was horrified!
My nerves
aren't strong enough.
I can't listen
to such--
Such things
without them affecting me.
Even today, if I see
someone with a large cut,
I have to look away.
I could never
have been a doctor.
I still remember
how I visualized the scene
and began to tremble,
a-- as if I'd been
through some
terrible experience,
the kind of thing
that makes you...
shake.
Then I received orders
to go to Lichmenstadt
and report back
what was going on there.
So, I went to the Gestapo
headquarters in Lichmenstadt
and there I was told that
it was a special team put in,
bought by
the Reich Fuhrer,
Himmler.
I saw a large room
with Jews in it.
They made them take off
all their clothes.
Then a sealed
truck drove up
and the naked
Jews got in.
The door was closed
and the truck drove away.
How many people
did this truck hold?
I-- I don't know exactly.
The whole time I was there,
I never looked inside.
I couldn't. Couldn't!
What I had seen
and heard was enough.
The screaming.
I was much too shaken.
I drove after that truck
and what I saw...
what-- was
the most horrific thing
I had ever seen
in my life.
It drove up
to a-- a rather long trench.
The back doors were open
and corpses
were just thrown out.
The-- Their limbs were supple
as if they were being alive.
Just thrown in!
I can still
see someone
with a pair of pliers
pulling out their teeth.
And then I got
into my car and drove off.
I didn't say
another word to my driver.
I'd had enough.
I was through.
In Berlin, I reported
to Gruppenfuhrer Muller.
Not Heydrich?
I was
working for Heydrich,
but Muller
was my direct superior.
I told him the same
as what I have told you now.
It's terrible!
I can't! It's-- it's--
"I can't do it!"
I told him.
What did Muller say?
Muller never said anything.
Never.
Not about these things
or anything else.
He always
was very unemotional
and said only
what was strictly necessary.
He would have-- either say
yes or he would say no.
And if he
didn't say yes or no,
then he would say,
"Eichmann, my friend,
that's neither yes or no."
Did you report
on this in writing?
No,
I couldn't do that.
I wa-- I was expressly
forbidden by Heydrich.
Muller especially wanted
to know how long it takes.
I wasn't able to tell him that.
I couldn't hear.
I should have gone out
there a second time,
but naturally,
I didn't volunteer.
Did you see Jews being gassed
by submarine engines,
by Globocnik's outfit?
No,
I never saw that.
How many of these places
were your sent to?
Let me think.
The ones I've already mentioned.
And Auschwitz.
Minsk.
Treblinka.
That was all, I believe.
Oh, yes. And Lemberg.
Were these just
information-gathering missions
or did you have
some special assignment?
No, no assignment.
I had no...
special orders
to give or anything.
No instructions
about who to gas
or whether anyone
was to be gassed,
whether the gassing
could or should be stopped,
or started or intensified.
I never had anything to do
with all of that, Captain.
And if the newspapers
say I did,
then I tell you,
they are lies.
I'm telling you
the truth!
What were
your reports like
about the extermination
camps to Muller?
Muller said to me.
"In Minsk,
the Jews are being shot.
I'd like
a report on that."
So, I went to Minsk...
and asked
for the commanding officer.
He wasn't there.
So, I spoke
to someone else and told him
I had orders
to see what was going on.
I spent
the night in that town
and the next day
I went to the place.
But I got
there too late.
The work for that morning
was already done--
Almost done.
And I was
very glad for that.
When I got there,
I was just in time to see
young riflemen with the Death's
Head collar patch
sh**ting into a pit.
I can still see
a woman with her arms
behind her back
and her knees crumpled.
And then I cleared out.
The pit
was full of corpses?
It was full,
it was full!
I went to my car, I got in
and I drove back to Lemberg.
I told the SS officer there,
I said to him,
"It's horrible
what they're doing there.
They're tr-- training men
to be sadists!
How can they stand there,
firing on women and children?
How is it possible?
These men will either
go mad or become sadists."
He said to me,
"They're doing
the same thing here.
You want to see?"
I told him
I didn't, but-- but...
but we were driving
past there anyway.
There had been
a pit there.
It was
already filled in
and the blood
was gushing out of it.
How shall I say?
Like a geyser.
I'd never seen
anything like it.
I'd had enough
of that mission.
I went back to Berlin,
reported what
I'd seen to Muller.
I said to him,
"This is no solution
to the Jewish question.
And besides, we're training
our young men to be sadists.
We shouldn't be surprised if
the-- the men turn out to be...
criminals, all criminals."
I still remember
Muller looking at me
with an expression
that said,
"Eichmann.
You're right.
That's no solution."
But he
didn't say anything.
What could
he do about it?
Not a thing.
Not a thing.
And who gave
the orders for such actions?
The orders. The orders.
Obviously,
the orders must have come
from the head
of the security police
and the SD, Heydrich.
And he would have
been given the orders
from Reichsfuhrer Himmler.
What about the Fuhrer?
Sorry?
Did Hitler
not give the order to him?
Yes.
Well, I don't know.
There isn't any evidence
of any express orders,
to my knowledge,
but Himmler must have had
express orders from Hitler.
Otherwise he would
have been out on his ear
before he knew
what hit him.
That's my thinking,
at least.
Did Himmler
give written orders
for the Final Solution
of the Jewish Question?
Written?
For extermination?
Physical extermination?
Yes.
I never saw
such orders, Captain.
Wasn't like that.
All I know
is that Heydrich said to me,
"The Fuhrer has ordered
physical extermination
of the Jews."
He said it
as clearly and as surely
as I'm repeating
it here now.
I implored Muller.
"Please,
don't send me there.
Send someone else.
Someone with stronger nerves."
They never sent me
to the front.
I was never
a soldier.
There are plenty
of other people
who could stand
to see such things,
who won't kneel over.
"I can't stand it.
I can't, Gruppenfuhrer.
But it never
got me anywhere.
We'll take
a break now.
We'll continue
on this subject later.
I heard your
wife's name is Vera, Captain.
- You heard?
- Well...
I overheard
some of the guards.
My wife's name
is Vera, too.
What are the chances?
Perhaps it was fate.
What do you know
about Zyklon B gas?
Nothing,
apart from what I've heard.
It's contained in beer.
I only heard
the name Zyklon B recently.
I knew of it
as prussic acid.
Mm.
Well, I'm now going
to quote from the German edition
of the Proceedings of the Trial
of the Leading w*r Criminals
Before the International
Military Court in Nuremberg.
"From the sworn
testimony of Rudolf Hoss,
who was camp commander
at Auschwitz
from 1914 to 1943."
He said...
"Eichmann was
repeatedly in Auschwitz
and knew exactly
what was being done."
Captain, I only knew
what I had said.
Neither in Auschwitz
or anywhere else
did I witness
the extermination process.
It was only in Minsk
that I got there
after the sh**ting had begun.
Everywhere else, I refused,
because I wasn't up to it.
I knew nothing
about the gas.
When Rudolf Hoss
was under arrest in Poland,
he made some
autobiographical notes.
Here.
I have, uh,
an extract from his book,
Commandant of Auschwitz.
"Eichmann told me
about the k*lling
by exhaust fumes
in trucks,
as had been practiced
in the east up until then.
That, however,
would not have been possible
for the mass shipments that
we-- that were to be expected.
k*lling by spraying with
carbon monoxide in a bathroom
as it had been done
with the mentally ill
in some places
in the Reich,
would have required
too many buildings.
Moreover,
it was questionable
whether sufficient gas
could be procured
for such a vast
number of people.
We left
the matter unresolved.
Eichmann undertook
to find out about a gas
that was easily obtainable
and required
no special installations.
And report
to me about it."
Have you
a comment to make?
Yes, sir, I have.
The overwhelming majority
of these assertions
are pure invention.
It is obvious to me
that his only intention
was to clear the name
of his department:
the SS Administration
and Supply Headquarters.
And why would he bother
protecting his own department
when he was
on trial for w*r crimes?
I haven't the faintest idea.
His reasons are unknown to me.
But I never, in any way--
and to this, Captain,
I will take any oath--
discussed this matter with Hoss.
I will now show you
a document presented
by the prosecution
of the first
Nuremberg w*r Crimes trial.
It is a statement
by Dr. Kurt Gerstein,
former head of the Technical
Disinfection Service
in the SS
Command headquarters.
Now, it concerns the utilization
of the poison gas
that had been ordered
from him in July 1942
by Rolf Gunther.
Your deputy,
your representative.
I wasn't
aware of Gunther ordering
any prussic
acid in 1942,
I must say
it's odd, very odd,
that Gunther
should be mixed up in this.
I wasn't involved
in this, Captain.
I ask that you not attach
any importance to this document.
If I had anything
to do with it,
my name would be mentioned
here, as per custom.
But you gave
Gunther the order.
He certainly wouldn't
have acted on his own accord.
No, no, no.
And this
I must deny, Captain.
Of course Gunther didn't think
of this on his own.
He must have received an order.
That much is plain.
But he didn't
get it from me.
I didn't know.
A hundred kilos
of prussic acid.
I knew nothing
about that.
He must have got the order
from Muller-- directly.
I find that
hard to believe,
that Muller would
go over your head
in giving Gunther
a special order?
No. What Gerstein says here that
suddenly, on June 8th, 1942,
Gunther ordered the gas.
With Hoss' statement
about the preparations
for the gassing
and your telling him
that you'd find out about a gas.
Hangs together rather
nicely, doesn't it?
Oh, I'm sorry, Captain,
but lots of things
that have happened
"hang together nicely."
But if I had been
involved in it,
Gerstein would
have mentioned me.
And Gerstein
never mentioned me.
Do you remember
The Wannsee Conference,
where the implementation
of the Final Solution
was determined?
Yes, I was present.
I wrote the invitations
to the state secretaries.
Is that all?
Yes.
Well,
why were you invited
if you played
such a...
subordinate role?
I had to write
the invitations,
supply Heydrich
with data for his speeches,
the immigration information
and so on.
Was Muller there, too?
Yes.
It was
a high-level conference,
as I said then.
Nothing below state secretary.
Then why bring
little Eichmann in?
Heydrich couldn't
have been all that keen on
having to keep asking
during the conference,
"Are my figures correct?"
No,
he did that beforehand.
Things to do
with emmigration.
At the time
of The Wannsee Conference,
the k*lling
had just begun.
The gassing machines
were already at work.
And if the k*lling
had started--
And it had started!
It was probably to do with
the organization of the program,
something that
I had nothing to do with.
Most
would regard the fact
that you were brought
to the conference
an indication
that you played a much...
bigger role in the Final
Solution than you admit.
No, no, Captain.
If I had spoken up
at The Wannsee Conference,
it would have been
purely to say, "Yes, sir."
I-- I sat in the corner
with the stenotypist
and nobody
bothered with me.
Not even Heydrich.
I was insignificant there.
Rudolf Hoss
quotes you here.
"I will leap
into my grave laughing
because the feeling that
I have five million human beings
on my conscience...
is for me a source
of extraordinary satisfaction.
Yes, I believe
I remember that.
But I was referring
to the enemies of the Reich--
The Soviets,
not the Jews.
There wasn't any mention
of the Jews at all,
no mention whatsoever.
Here is a document presented
by the prosecution
of the 11th w*r Crimes
Trial at Nuremberg.
It comes
from the Foreign Office
and it concerns
the shipment
of 318 Hungarian Jews.
Hmm. Yes.
Well, it's to do
with an illegal shipment.
And in my opinion,
it is a mistake
where it says here
that these things
were arranged
between Reich Fuhrer Himmler
and Ostbahn Fuhrer Eichmann.
That is wrong.
Himmler organized
these things with...
Dr. Kasztner
and Kurt Becker.
Dr. Kasztner?
As in the Kasztner train?
The same one.
He saved 1,700 Jews.
More than Schindler.
But Schindler
wasn't assassinated
by your countrymen
three years ago.
He wasn't assassinated
by my countrymen.
He was assassinated
by extremists.
And Schindler
was responsible for saving Jews.
Not k*lling them.
He didn't
pull any triggers.
But don't you think
that he is responsible,
partly at least,
for the Jews
that he didn't save?
Or for not alerting the world
to the mass m*rder of Jews?
Eichmann,
if you really believed that,
you'd consider yourself guilty.
Ah,
So, you see my point?
No. No, I don't.
I'm as guilty
or innocent as Schindler.
And I am certainly more
innocent than Dr. Kasztner.
And Becker?
Becker was the commissaire
of all the German
concentration camps
and the Economic
Department in Hungary.
What was
the Economic Department?
Their job was to extract
all economic benefits
from the Jews:
steal their property
and belongings,
cut off their hair,
pull out their teeth.
Their hair
was very profitable.
He sold it
to the Schaeffler Group
for use
in their automobile parts.
Upholstery,
I believe it was.
Becker was very
resourceful for Himmler.
Yes, I see here that Becker
was cleared at Nuremberg.
Not just that, Captain,
but he was never
even on trial.
He was there as a witness,
not as a w*r criminal.
That snake, Dr. Kasztner,
testified before
the Nuremberg Court
that Becker opposed
the annihilation of Jews.
He did
no such thing.
And now he is one
of the most wealthy men
in Western Germany.
A businessman.
But I doubt your government
would believe my accusations.
Probably wasting my breath.
Well, this communication
makes no mention of Becker.
It refers to a conversation
between you and Himmler.
Well, yes.
That information
is partly true.
I did meet with Himmler
with Becker, together.
And later,
Becker was ordered
to report to Himmler by himself.
What they decided,
I don't know.
I was only
to put through the transaction
for the transport.
So, you're claiming
you had...
no part
in the negotiation?
No.
It was Himmler,
Becker and Dr. Kasztner.
The economic end
wasn't my department.
I was only interested
in the police aspect.
I made no deals
for transport...
no deals about anything.
Hmm. So, you want me
to believe
that your department
was so ignorant
that it would tell
the Foreign Office
that the shipment of Jews
was the product of...
an oral agreement
between Himmler and you?
Well, that
information is half correct
because I did meet
with Himmler with Becker,
but he also met
with Himmler separately.
We had
two divisions of labor.
One took care
of certain things
and one took care
of certain other things.
Becker, for instance,
couldn't have
transported the Jews
across the border safely.
That was
in my province.
And when did this,
uh, conference
with Himmler take place?
Late 1944.
I remember Himmler
had a train
outside of a tunnel.
And there was
an air raid alarm.
The train went
into the tunnel.
On the way there
from Budapest,
we went in two cars:
Becker in Himmler's
and I in mine.
Earlier, Becker
had shown me a gold necklace,
which he'd meant to give him
for his mistress,
with whom
he'd had a child.
Then,
he told me
that he was optimistic
about the outcome
of the w*r.
Yes. Yes, yes.
Look, don't worry.
I'm sure it's nothing.
Has anything else
been happening?
Oh, that's great.
Yes. Yes.
I will come. I will come.
No, no, no. I-- | -
I promise, I won't wake him.
Listen, tell him
I'm proud of--
We're getting nowhere,
Avner.
He's not admitted to having
more than an ancillary role
in the Third Reich
and the Final Solution.
He's not stupid.
His defense strategy follows
Nuremberg to the letter.
He distances
himself from actions
as far away
as possible.
And when I give him
documentary proof,
well,
he starts blaming others--
Subordinates, superiors.
Failing that,
he just says,
"I was following orders."
Now, I don't know
whether he's thinking
he can save
his own neck...
but he's not doing
a bad job.
Eichmann is not
going to tell us
he had a decisive role
in the Final Solution.
And it seems
you can't get him to confess it.
I can.
I just need more time.
Eichmann
trusts me in a way.
I'm the closest thing
that he has to a confidant,
closest thing
to a friend,
at least
someone who will listen.
I can use that.
We don't have all the time
in the world
for you two to bond.
The whole of Israel
is calling for his execution.
We are not barbarians.
He does deserve to die.
Sooner is better than later.
We are not Nazis.
I'm getting pressure
from the very top.
If you don't get
somewhere soon--
What? We're going to say
he hanged himself in his cell?
Who's going
to believe that?
If you repeat
what I'm going to tell you now
to anyone, ever, then you'll be
charged with treason.
If we can't get somewhere
close to a confession,
if after this process
we're able to secure
a conviction,
then I have the authority
to destroy the tapes.
We'll say there was a fire
or something along those lines.
Uh, we-- we-- they will
doctor the transcripts
and make
the transcribers swear
that that's what
they heard on the tapes.
It may be only
a few minor changes,
a few words here and there
that'll make the difference
between Eichmann
being convicted or acquitted.
And the machine
you're using,
I believe,
belongs to the Soviet.
It shouldn't be
too difficult
to make people believe
that it simply broke.
Why am I
being followed?
Why are there strange
cars outside my house?
What does my wife tell me
there are strange men
when she picks
the children up from school?
Avner...
Don't lie to me,
Colonel.
I know
they're your men.
It's just a precaution.
We're getting
death threats daily
from lunatics,
radical groups.
It's just--
it's just a precaution.
You're the one
who didn't want
this-- this investigation
in the first place.
Don't make things difficult.
If Eichmann
doesn't get a fair trial...
we're turning our back
on the past.
Avner.
If we don't
get somewhere soon,
you'll leave me no choice.
You've stated you...
only act on orders.
I'm going to show
you some documents
presented by the prosecution
at the 11th w*r Crime
Trials of Nuremberg.
The first
is a telegram...
to the Foreign Office,
dated March 13, 1943,
dealing with
the anti-Jewish measures
planned by the Italian
Foreign Ministry.
Now, the second document, uh,
is from Foreign
Minister Ribbentrop,
uh, asking your department
to determine in consultation
with Himmler
whether the anti-Jewish
measures decided
in the Italian-occupied Greece
were, um...
adequate.
And if so,
whether these measures
were actually being
carried out.
Now, here it claims
you determined the anti-Jewish
measures were inadequate.
Because on the one hand
they were identical
with the likewise inadequate
anti-Jewish measures
current in Italy.
And on the other
hand, expertise,
uh, or other experience,
gave you ground for doubt
that the measures
were being honestly carried out.
Well, yeah,
I don't remember
this particular case.
I mean, it was
a long time ago, you know?
Another lifetime.
Well, can it be inferred
from this document
that Ribbentrop
gave instructions
to consult your department
so as to be sure...
of proceeding...
with your wishes
and instructions?
And I'm to take it
that in fundamental
questions of this kind,
the Foreign Office
couldn't make a decision
without consulting
your department.
Well, I suppose
my-- my department.
I had to get my instructions
from my superiors.
Now, I'm going to show
you another document
presented by the prosecution
at the 11th w*r Crime
Trials in Nuremberg.
Uh... it's a telegram,
top secret, from Budapest,
dated the 6th
of July, 1944,
It's a situation report
sent directly
by German minister in Budapest,
Veesenmayer,
to Foreign Minister Ribbentrop,
regarding an interview
with Hungarian Prime Minister,
Sztojay.
Now, Sztojay was upset
about this order
so he asked Veesenmayer
for an interview.
And in that interview,
Sztojay spoke of difficulties
that the handling
of the Jewish Question
was creating in Hungary.
And now this report suggests
that Hungarian
auth-- authorities
weren't the ones demanding
deportation of the Jews.
Yeah... The fact is,
insofar as my own practice,
that is, my own practical
experience is concerned--
And I'm referring now
to the lower echelons--
I couldn't help
but observe the opposite.
And I assure you,
the whole course of events
pointed in that direction.
Without the help
of the Hungarian military,
the processing of Jews
would not have been possible.
And another indication
is that I, at no time,
attempted to influence
the Hungarian government,
as some people here
are trying to suggest.
On the contrary,
this document clearly states
that these things originated
from the highest
Reich authority,
of which I played no part.
But it clearly shows
that the, uh,
civilian Hungarian population
were not, uh, enthusiastic
about your anti-Jewish policy.
Well, the interests of the
Hungarian civilian population
were none
of my concern.
That wasn't my job.
My job, Captain,
was to carry out the orders
that were given to me.
And these things
were none of my concern.
You can see here
that...
it clearly states that
these were things
that concerned the highest
spheres of leadership.
What did you do
about the Jews
who fled
across the Hungarian borders
to escape deportation?
There must have been
a lot of them.
It depends.
It-- it depended
on the nature of the case
and the nature
of the terrain.
No German headquarters
were competent,
because we had
no personnel.
The competent authority
was the Hungarian military,
who, among other things,
did the same work
as our border police.
But weren't you, uh, interested
in letting
as few escape as possible,
seeing that, uh,
the aim was to deport
as many as possible?
According to my orders, yes.
According to the orders
that I had,
of course it was
within my interest
that Jews residing
in Hungary
were to be deported
and that
they shouldn't all escape.
In a formal sense,
so to speak,
I opposed it.
But in practice,
nothing was done.
So, you're claiming
that you allowed
some Jews to escape
and you did nothing
to organize their capture?
Yes.
I did exactly
as I was ordered to do.
But beyond that,
I was not an anti-Semite.
I did nothing
beyond the strict orders
to deport Jews,
as you can see
by the large number
who actually did escape.
I'm going to show you
some documents
presented by the prosecution
of the 11th w*r Crime
Trials at Nuremberg.
It's a telegram
signed by Veesenmayer
dated Budapest, June 14, 1944,
And it concerns
the flight of Jews to Slovakia.
It's a telegram
from Veesenmayer to Ribbentrop.
It deals
with the information
that more
and more Jews...
residing in Hungary
are crossing over to Slovakia.
And a suggestion
that if Ribbentrop agreed,
Veesenmayer would meet
with the German minister
in Slovakia
to work out
joint practical measures.
Since for political
and military reasons,
these escapes
were most, uh, undesirable.
Well, you see,
it's as I said before:
the border zones naturally
tempted people to escape.
The woods, the mountains.
And undoubtedly,
the initiator of this action
was not me.
It seems there was
an uprising in East Slovakia.
Yes.
After reading this document,
can you still maintain
that the Hungarians
were the driving force
behind the extermination
of Jews in Hungary?
Captain, if in w*r time
people try to escape,
regardless
of whether they're Jews,
Hungarians, Germans--
Even Germans--
It stands to reason
that steps
must be taken to stop them.
That was my position
no-- then,
and I cannot deny it today.
When several Jews
fled to Romania,
did you not get in touch
with, uh, von Killinger,
the German minister
in Bucharest,
and demand
that these escaped
be brought back
at all costs?
At all costs?
At all costs?
In the first place, that--
I could never
had said those words.
It is possible
that my associate, Krumi,
had drafted
a-- a-- a formal warrant.
But at all costs?
Certainly
no one said that
or anything like that.
Your guidelines
for the shipment.
They include the order,
"In cases of attempted escape,
firearms are to be used."
No,
I-- I've never heard of that.
In Hungary...
firearms definitely
weren't the practice.
In Hungary,
I am absolutely sure
that weapons were never used
in cases
of attempted escape.
No.
I don't believe that.
I don't believe it.
In an isolated case
or two,
it may have
somehow come to that,
but I can't imagine it.
It would not
have been necessary.
Had you told
the Hungarian undersecretary
that the half million
Jews deported
were sent to Auschwitz
to be gassed?
We-- Yes, I...
I personally believed,
and I still believe,
that the majority
of the 450,000 Jews
who were sent
to Auschwitz survived.
Because an order
came through
almost immediately,
as it were,
to stop the shipments.
From Himmler?
Yes.
The-- the commander of
the security police in Budapest
received a-- a suspension order.
There was not to be
any more deportations.
Because Auschwitz
had no more room.
That's why Himmler
sent orders
for the killings
to stop.
Auschwitz was full.
There was no room
for any more people.
I believe
there was a week's pause.
You mean
it started up again?
It started up
again after that?
Yes.
What is the meaning of,
"Termination
of the entire action,
including deportation,
as your liaison in
the Foreign Office writes here?
Well, Captain,
it-- it means
total elimination
of the Jews in Hungary.
Including babies,
children,
old people?
Well, in this case, yes.
But that
wasn't my department.
This is the work
of the combined top brass:
Foreign Minister Ribbentrop
and Reichsfuhrer Himmler.
Excuse me, Captain Less.
Herr Eichmann has
an appointment with the judge.
Oh--
No. Captain, please!
I-- I haven't told
you everything yet.
Don't take me away.
Please!
Stop.
Don't worry.
You're being taken
to the justice of the peace
who is going to renew
your order for detention.
And then we'll
continue our sessions.
Captain.
May I make
some personal remarks?
I have long been
inwardly prepared
to make a general
statement of this sort,
but I did not know where fate
would call on me to make it.
Someone told me that...
I would appear in court
before the year was out.
I was also told
that I would not survive
my 56th birthday.
One of those prophecies
has already come true.
And the other...
I believe...
is inexorable.
All my life, I have been
accustomed to obedience,
from early childhood
until May 8th, 1945.
An obedience,
which during my years
of membership with the SS,
became blind
and unconditional.
For that...
what would I have
gained by disobedience,
and who would it have served?
For that,
my rank and function
placed me in a--
too far a lower position.
Nevertheless,
though I have
no blood on my hands...
I fully expect that
the death penalty awaits me.
If as a greater act
of atonement...
I am prepared
as an example
and a deterrent to other
anti-Semites of the world...
to hang myself
in public.
We have no recourse.
We must alter the records.
No.
Why?
Why-- why are
you so insistent
in showing justice
to a man
who showed no justice
whatsoever to six million souls,
who me-- at the very least,
aided in slaughtering?
He doesn't deserve it,
but he needs a fair trial.
The world needs
to see we are different.
It's been 15 years and some
of the world has forgotten.
But we cannot.
If we do not
learn from the past,
we are fated
to repeat it.
I'd agree with you
if this was a perfect world,
but it isn't a perfect world.
And sometimes we are forced
to do unpleasant things
for the greater good.
Have you not read
the transcripts?
This is
how it starts.
Hitler didn't begin
by gassing the Jews.
Captain Less, I'm ordering you
to fabricate the transcripts.
You're ordering me?
No.
I refuse.
Excuse me?
If you continue
to pursue this plan...
I will go to the press.
Look, if you don't care
about your own life,
think about your family.
No!
I will not blindly
follow orders, like him.
I will go
to the press.
A-- Avner,
if Eichmann is acquitted,
it'll be
on your head.
I must
commend you, Captain.
I'm well aware
that throughout our sessions
you have not once attempted
to obtain a confession
through means
of a threat or promises.
I am grateful
for your fairness.
We're nearly at the end
of our interviews.
I'd like to show
you something.
Play the picture, please.
Captain!
Why are you showing me this?
Enough, Captain.
You know I don't have
the stomach for this.
Turn it off.
Please, Captain.
Turn it off!
I was born
in Germany.
I went
to school in Germany.
I grew up in Germany.
I left
when Hitler seized power.
You asked me
when we first met,
"Were my parents
still alive?"
My father was deported
by your organization
in January 1943.
It's horrible, Captain.
It's horrible.
I'd like to read
to you a few passages
from the German magazine, Stern.
The issue
of July 9, 1960,
contains an article
about you.
I'll read you
only a few bits.
Here it says,
"And so he writes"--
meaning you--
"On title page of Dr. Fritz
Kahn's book, The Atom,
'I mentally
digested this book
and found it to be
a magnificent confirmation
of the National Socialist
religion and theism.
And because this faith
is remotely related
to the communist doctrine,
that is
to Leninist materialism,
I warn my children not
to lump them all together.
Leninist-Marxist doctrine
teaches materialism.
It is cold
and lifeless.
Theism,
on the other hand,
is loving, natural
and always alive.
But unfortunately,
I fear that considering
the ignorance of my three sons,
all this will be no more
than empty talk to them.
My house was searched.
Yes,
I wrote that thing,
because my sons
were absolutely disinterested
in their-- their--
let's say s-- uh, uh, faculties
for spiritual development.
I wrote that
as a warning to them.
I love my children!
The article
goes on to say,
"He told them the excuse
or justification he had
prepared for himself.
He said
their father was wanted,
that he was accused
of hideous crimes.
But it was not true.
He had only been
a conscientious official
who had done
what he was ordered to do,
but never k*lled anyone"--
And that is the truth!
It continues, "With friends,
he admits who he is,
engages in
endless conversations,
reads everything
that has been published
since the w*r
about his field of activity,
the Jewish Question.
He clings desperately to
the one remaining justification
for his actions:
his oath to the flag,
his sense of duty...
and obedience.
And everyone
who in the last hours
of the thousand-year Reich
put human feeling
about unconditional obedience
is the object of Eichmann's
irreconcilable hatred.
He has read
Gerhard Boldt's book,
The Last Days
of the Reich Chancellery,
and discovered
that Boldt, the author,
was not obedient to his Fuhrer
down to the last comma.
The description on the dust
jacket begins with the words,
'In January 1945,
a young front line officer...'
Eichmann crosses
out 'front line officer'
and writes in 'scoundrel...
traitor...
skunk.'
Wherever Boldt's name
appears in the book,
he adds, 'scoundrel...
traitor...
skunk."
"Where Boldt said,
'The last days of
the National Socialist Reich,
high SS leaders
who had been haughty
and arrogant up until then,
suddenly shriveled
and appealed for sympathy
to anyone who would listen,'
Eichmann makes
the marginal note,
'The author
is a stupid assh*le.
The swine's name
is Boldt.'
In another passage,
Eichmann writes,
'The author should be skinned
alive for his treachery.
With scoundrels of his ilk,
the w*r was bound to be lost.'
And finally,
on the last pages of the book,
Eichmann's resume':
'One, every man is entitled
to live as he pleases.
Two, but then he has no right
to call himself an officer.
Because three, officer
equals fulfillment of duty
as specified
in the soldier's oath.'
There we have
it again.
Fulfillment of duty,
that straw
which he clings to
and in defense
of which he develops a passion
and a vocabulary
he was not yet
familiar with
in the days
when he was coldly
and with murderous precision,
helping to solve
the Jewish Question."
Did you make such notes?
I-- I did make those notes.
But it is disgusting--
disgusting--
Of the man
to speak of a-- a straw
with which I was not
yet familiar at the time.
I was always
familiar with it.
In fact,
it was my norm.
I had taken Kant's...
categorical imperative
as my norm.
I did. Long ago.
I had ordered my life
by that imperative
and I had to continue to use it
in my sermons to my sons
when I realized that they were
letting themselves go.
I loved my sons
more than anything.
But in view
of their laziness,
their disinterest
in their education,
I tried
to use strong words.
Sometimes when
I was reading a book,
I would be seized
by righteous indignation.
And I would
take up a pencil
and write what seemed
significant to me
at that moment.
The Stern article goes on.
"Friends and acquaintances
who spoke with him
in Argentina at that time
described him as a man
who had gone to pieces,
who recognized
his unspeakable guilt,
but who instead
of confessing it to himself,
cast about with an obstinate
rage for formal justification
to avoid having
to condemn himself."
That's not true.
That-- that's
journalistic rubbish.
And now this:
"Eichmann's conscience.
'I'm getting sick
and tired,' he writes,
'of living the life
of an anonymous wanderer
between two worlds.
The voice of my heart,
which no man can escape,
has always whispered
to me to look for peace.
I would also like to be
at peace with my former enemies.
Maybe that is a part
of the German character.
I would be only
too glad to surrender
to the German authorities
if I were
not obliged to consider
that people may
still be too much interested
in the political
aspect of the matter
to permit of a clear,
objective outcome.
Far be it
for me to doubt
that a German court
would arrive
at a just verdict.
But I am not at all clear
about the judicial status
that would
be accorded today
to a former
receiver of orders
whose duty it was
to be loyal to his oath
and to carry out the orders
and instructions given him.
I was no more
than a faithful,
decent,
correct, conscientious
and enthusiastic
member of the SS
and of Reich
Security Headquarters,
inspired solely
by idealistic feelings
toward the fatherland, to which
I have the honor of belonging.
Despite conscientious
self-examination,
I must-- I must
find in my favor
that I was
neither a m*rder*r
nor a mass m*rder*r.
But to be
absolutely truthful,
I must accuse myself
of complicity in k*lling
because I passed on the
deportation orders I received
and because at least a fraction
of the deportees were k*lled,
though by
an entirely different unit.
I have said that I would
have to accuse myself
of complicity
in k*lling if...
I were to judge myself
with merciless severity.
But I do not yet
see clearly
whether I have
the right to do this
vis-a-vis
my immediate subordinates.
Therefore, I am still engaged
in an inner struggle.
My subjective attitude
towards the things that happened
was my belief
in the necessity of a total w*r.
Because I could
not help believing
in the constant proclamations
issued by the leaders
of the then German Reich,
such as,
"Victory
in this total w*r
or the German
nation will perish."
On the strength
of that attitude,
I did
my commander duty
with a clear conscience
and a faithful heart."
Exactly!
Hmm.
Did you write
these things or...
I don't remember where,
but the words are mine.
So, this part
is true?
Yes,
I recognize the words.
I'd like to read again
from Rudolph Hoss' memories.
Oh, Captain, please.
Hoss, again?
"I was acquainted
with Eichmann
after I received orders
for the extermination
of Jews
from Reichsfuhrer Himmler.
He came to see me
in Auschwitz
to discuss the details
of the extermination process.
Eichmann was a lively,
active man in his thirties,
always bursting
with energy.
He was always
hatching new plans
and always in search
of innovations and improvement.
He could never rest.
He was obsessed
with the Jewish Question
and regularly gave
Himmler direct oral reports
about the preparation
and implementation
of the various actions.
Eichmann was obsessed
with the goal
of destroying
the biological foundation
of the Jew in the East.
When discussing
the extermination process,
he encouraged
the use of gas,
because to expect SS men
to sh**t women and children
would turn them
into sadists."
I don't know why
you are bringing Hoss up again.
As I said before,
Captain, the man is a liar.
There are other people
who have made similar statements
about you, Herr Eichmann.
The men on trial
in Nuremberg
had no means
of getting together to say,
"Let's get together
to save our skins
and testify
against Eichmann."
Every one
of those men
knew what was
in store for them.
What Hoss said was untrue.
Totally untrue!
I never k*lled
any Jews.
I am guilty of assisting
with the evacuation of Jews,
under which
I was under orders.
That's what
gives me peace of mind.
Uh, an inner tranquilizer.
I never k*lled
any Jews.
And for that matter,
I never k*lled any non-Jews.
Nor did I order
the k*lling of Jews or non-Jews.
I was simply
a transportation officer.
All the evidence produced
has shown your duties
went much further.
I will now read further
from Stern magazine.
"This Eichmann was neither
depraved nor unfeeling.
According to his own
credible testimony,
he was rather sensitive,
and yet consciously
and with open eyes,
this man signed
the deportation orders,
which for many hundreds
of thousands, meant death.
He was a bureaucrat
of m*rder...
and he knew it.
At that time,
he had neither inhibitions
nor any desire
to plead orders from above.
He must bear
full responsibility."
That is utter nonsense.
My attitude
is that I should obey my oath.
That cannot be interpreted
and it cannot be changed.
Journalists can throw
away their oath,
but a soldier cannot.
Do you subscribe
to the notations
you made
in your books?
Yeah. | --
No one has the right
to take an interest
in what I write
in my private books,
unless
I lend them my books.
And I never
lent them my books.
Orders from above.
That's what they were.
I obeyed. Regardless
of what I was ordered to do,
I would have obeyed.
Certainly,
I would have obeyed.
I obeyed. I obeyed!
Here is a statement
from Kurt Becker.
Becker, Captain?
We've been
through this, please!
From Kurt Becker
at his hearing July 10,
1947,
about the meeting
between you two and Himmler,
which we previously discussed.
Um...
"Herr Himmler received Eichmann
for ten minutes in my presence.
He ordered Eichmann to stop
the shipments of Jews to Hungary
as we were
already over capacity.
Eichmann did not.
He did not halt
any transports
because he wanted
to extinguish
any trace
of the Jew from Germany.
He disobeyed
Himmler's order."
Becker is a liar.
That is pure fiction.
Well, what was the substance
of your conversation
with Himmler
on that day?
Oh,
I don't remember, Captain.
But Himmler never gave me
the order to stop the shipment.
Becker made this statement
so that he could wash
his hands in innocence.
He tried to come out
of the whole affair unscathed.
I'm surprised that he could
have even been Standartenfuhrer.
Very amazed.
I'm also amazed
that I could have got away
from Himmler scot-free.
When Himmler realized
that I had disobeyed his orders,
I would have been
arrested then and there,
on the spot,
and most likely shot.
By all accounts,
that wasn't the process
to discipline someone
of your... rank.
For lesser deeds,
men were heavily, heavily...
punished, let's say.
What-- what nonsense.
Here is the order
signed by Himmler himself.
And here is the log
of Jewish shipments,
after the date of order.
Captain.
Captain.
I was just trying to do
my duty for my country.
I was just trying
to be a soldier.
I was an ordinary man.
The only crime I'm guilty
of is apathy, that's all.
What did I do, Captain?
What did I do?
You did...
nothing.
Good job, Avner.
Well done.
I think this should set up
your career quite nicely.
General Sallinger
is quite happy.
Where are you going?
I've finished.