01x04 - The State of Texas vs. Robert Durst

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We kept Durst down here.

He had the TV up there.

He had one shower.

There's two cells
for two people,

but he was always in here
by himself.

He slept in that cell.

In prison,
you're not going to get

a whole bunch
of rich people in there.

I mean,
most people in prison are from lower,

lower income families,
not educated.

I got along
with those people well.

They all treated me
with enormous respect.

I was Mr. Bob in prison.

What they accomplished
in their lives,

whatever it might have been,
they accomplished on their own.

I'll never do anything
on my own.

It'll always be this thing

or all this money
or whatever it is.

No matter what I do in my life,
I will have started out rich.


sits in a Texas jail now

charged with the gruesome death
of his neighbor two years ago.

Texas authorities
aren't the only ones

interested in Durst.

In New York,
police continue to investigate

the 1982 disappearance
of his first wife Kathleen,

and police in Los Angeles
also want to talk to him

about the unsolved m*rder
of friend Susan Berman

in December of 2000.

I got a case,
but I can't prove it quite yet,

and for New York,
they got a case.

They... They ain't got a body,
and, uh, but to us,

it was Galveston
had the best of all cases.

Robert Durst is charged in Texas
with the m*rder of Morris Black,

not only murdering him,
but dismembering him

and throwing his body
in the Galveston Bay.

They had the evidence.

The conviction
would be gotten in Texas.

Durst dismembered the body,

put it in garbage bags,
and threw it in the river.

I mean, how do you defend this?

It would seem to be a home run
for the prosecution.

Robert Durst
sh*t and k*lled Morris Black,

dismembered him,
and threw him away like trash.

That was our focus.

Nobody deserves to be k*lled

and their head cut off,

their arms cut off,
their legs cut off,

and packaged up like garbage.

The evidence, the totality

of the circumstances of this
case pointed us to one charge

and one charge only,
and that was m*rder.

Legendary
Texas lawyer d*ck DeGuerin

heads the billionaire's
high-powered defense team.

I think it's a beautiful
day in Galveston.

That's all I can say.

I always
get nervous before a trial.

I always worry about
maybe there's something

I should have done I didn't do,
and often I'm right about that.

There were
moments where you kind of

gagged on what you had
gotten yourself into.

We've got a guy cut up
in 20 different pieces

thrown in a bay,
and they're expecting us to win this case.

Good? 3, 2, 1. 3, 2, 1.

An eccentric
New York real estate heir

is on trial in Texas.

In a Galveston court,
Robert Durst

is looking back at a murky past
catching up to him.

This has been the last


and it's beginning
to have closure.

We were getting requests

from so many media
from around the country...

People magazine

and the New York papers
and television stations,

and, of course,
you have your local media,

You have your TV stations
from Houston.

The Post had a stringer there.

AP was in there.

The Daily News
sent over an editor.

I mean,
everybody saw it as a big story.

The tabloid press
can't seem to get enough

of the multi-millionaire
accused of m*rder.

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So I go to the courtroom,

and at some level,
I felt sorry for Bob.

I mean, he looked at me.
He gave me this little smile.

It wasn't a malicious,
"Ha ha! I'm gonna get you next" smile.

it was just kind of like this
little smile of recognition.

I never forgave him
for murdering Kathie.

It was just some element
of feeling sorry for him.

His life just unraveled
to such a pitiful degree.

All rise, please.

Good morning.
You may all be seated.

Ladies and gentlemen
of the jury, the defendant

Robert Durst stands charged
by indictment

with the offense of m*rder.

The defendant has pleaded
not guilty.

We're ready to proceed.

Morning.

The burden of proof
is on the state

to prove to you
beyond a reasonable doubt

that Robert Durst intentionally
sh*t and k*lled Morris Black.

Look at these pictures.

This is what Mr. Durst
did to Morris Black...

Cut the skin all the way to the bone,
pulled the...

Pulled the tissue
and the muscle back,

get to the bone, and saw it off.

Flipped the body over
a couple of times because,

"I got to get around
the other side, too,

"and I got to do the legs.

Then I got to do the head"...

motivated to get away
with m*rder.

I'd never seen
anything like that, you know?

So you think, you know,
it's no big deal, but it's...

Uh, it's... It's shocking.

At the start,
what I felt in my gut was,

it was a m*rder because he had
to get rid of the evidence

by cutting him up and throwing
him in the Gulf or whatever.

Two local officers were called

to the stand today,
one a diver for the Galveston County

Sheriff's Department
who talked about where Morris Black's

body parts were found
in Galveston Bay.

Sitting back
in New York watching this

with my colleagues, I would say,

"Well, what's his defense
going to be?"

and they would
almost unanimously say,

"It doesn't matter what his
defense is because he's guilty

"and they're going to find him
guilty because he cut up

the body and, therefore,
he's going to be found guilty,"

and all I would say is, "Look.

"The guy's got
unlimited resources.

"He's got a very smart lawyer.

It's a publicity case.
He's gonna have some defense."

Bob has feelings.
This is his first girlfriend.

He'd been carrying that picture
with him.

He had it when he was arrested.

That's the pictures of his wedding,
he and Kathie.

He had them
when he was arrested.

And there's a picture of Bob
as a young boy.

He had them
when he was arrested.

When I first met Bob,
he was not loud.

He was not even
terribly responsive,

but he had an intelligence.

He had some wit to him.

He's disheveled.

He's been through the mill.

He's been held in circumstances
in which he's never been,

but you have to look past that

and see this lump of clay here
that I'm going to have to mold.

Has it got the capacity
to be molded into the shape

that I want it to be in
by the time we get to a jury?

I thought he was going to make
a pretty good defendant.

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When
the defense opened their case

and called Durst
as a first witness,

I was shocked.

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They had
to explain why he was on the run

before he even k*lled
Morris Black.

He was living on the run,
so to speak, when he came here.

He's hiding out.
He's wearing disguises.

He's living
this bizarre lifestyle.

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The people
who actually live in Galveston,

this tiny town
at the end of I-45

where the sign says,
literally, "Mile 0,"

those people go there
to get lost.

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Jeanine Pirro
ran him out of New York,

and I say that without fear
of contradiction.

That's what happened.

Bob was driven from New York
by a politically ambitious woman

who wanted to further
her own ambition

at Bob Durst's expense

with no evidence.

DeGuerin down there
is making me the focus

so that no one focuses
on what Robert Durst did.

It was very easy for us
to make her the enemy.

We kind of created this mythical
character in Jeanine Pirro,

and we took liberty
with how directly

she was involved
with that pursuit of Bob.

And until you've seen
your picture on the front page

of the newspaper being accused
of having something to do

with the disappearance
of a loved one,

you don't know
what it feels like.

If Miss Pirro
kept her mouth shut,

none of this
would have happened.

Are you kidding?

Well, I've heard,
"The devil made me do it."

I never heard,
"The DA made me do it."

They lied.

And that message played well.
The jury, they ate that one up.

Well, it kind of made sense
a little bit

when we were told that,
you know, he was trying

to get out of New York because
Jeanine Pirro was after him.

I think that she was really out to...
To get him,

and with having the pressure on,
you know, he wanted to get away,

and, you know,
I can't fault him for that.

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In terms of the
disguise that you chose,

you know,
you talked about that in Galveston.

Well, it was the only
disguise I could think of.

I'm a guy.
And what is a guy going to do?

I mean,
I could grow a beard and a mustache,

and I'd periodically
worn a beard

and a mustache
in New York City,

but I can't grow a beard
and a mustache now,

can't do it
by tomorrow morning.

I would have to get
some kind of a thing

to put on my face,
and I just couldn't imagine

that any of that
would act vaguely real.

I just came up with
the idea of a wig,

and then,
since I'm going to be a woman,

I've got to be mute

because I cannot
sound the way I sound.

Um, I mean,
in retrospect now...

That was a great disguise.

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I heard the jury laugh,
and I remembered talking to Joel.

I leaned over to Joel,
and I ask him,

"Did they just laugh
at this man?"

and it was
a defining moment for me.

I felt like, "Oh, my goodness,
if they, the defense team,

"had set out to
humanize him in some way

"after he'd dismembered Morris Black,
m*rder*d him,

"and ran with his I.D.
and did everything he had done,

they were looking like they
were being successful at it."

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No one knew a great deal
about Morris

because he was, uh, a loner.

Every time I say the word
"cantankerous" and "grumpy,"

I see Morris' face.

There was a guy that lived

in the house next door
that used to sit on the porch

and smoke his cigarette,
and Morris Black would walk

down the street and yell at him
for smoking on his porch.

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If you stop and think about it,

if it weren't
such a tragic situation,

it would be kind of
an amusing one...

Morris out in front
like a terrier dog bitin'

and snippin' at various people,
and...

And Bob walking behind...

Generally a little bit toked up,

uh, uh,
kind of cooling things down.

Uh, it's an odd couple.
It's an odd situation.

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Was there ever
a moment when he said,

"Hey,
for the last couple of weeks,

"you've been writing me
notes and wearing a wig.

Now you're not
writing notes."

Well, well, we became friendlier
as time went on

in the following months.

He asked about,
"How come you, you know,

"were here wearing a...

Why'd you rent the apartment
as Dorothy Signer?"

and like that,
and I told him I wanted

to disappear and hide,
and I think, "I'm... I'm hiding.

I don't find anybody
recognizing me."

And did he judge in any way?

Did he say, "Oh,

it's a weird thing to do,
or..."

No.
It was just the opposite.

He said, "Yeah, yeah.
I did that a long time ago."

Didn't say he changed his name

or he dressed
like a woman or...

But, yeah,
when I said I just didn't want

to be Robert Durst anymore,
he said,

"Yeah.
I went through that."

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Part of the defense
was the famous

"he had it coming" defense,
where Morris Black

was such a bad guy in so many
different ways and so crazy,

so touched in so many different
ways that we could prove.

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What were dealing with
is an unpredictable

and violent man,
one given to fits of rage,

one given to bizarre conduct.

That's the reason he comes in.

We're not here to blacken
the name of a dead man.

There's an old joke in Texas...

They hang horse thieves
and let murderers go.

That's because they don't have
any horses that need stealing.

Uh, we do have some people
that need k*lling.

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Morris had swiveled the chair.

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Judging from his standpoint,
if you were in his shoes

and you came to your house,
to your apartment, your home...

and you found Morris Black
in there without your permission

and you knew what we all
know now about Morris Black

and Morris Black went for a g*n,

would you be
reasonable in being in fear?

Would you be reasonable
in coming to your own defense?

In the State of Texas,
you find somebody

in your house who's
not supposed to be there,

there's not much
you cannot do to them.

Most other states,
what you're obligated to do

is to call the police,
do something else.

You're obligated to leave.

Texas,
you're not obligated to leave.

You can handle it more
or less as you see fit.

Obviously,
you're not supposed to k*ll them.

We always
had to keep Bob on message.

Uh, "You were afraid of him.

"You were afraid
of what he would do,

"and you knew you had to get
your hands on that g*n

or something
could happen to you."

That was the case.

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And so they go into the fight
and the struggle,

and they turned,
and he fell over the chair,

and this happened
and put it in the...

And they went through
this whole thing.

I mean, you know,
it felt like I was watching

something in theater,
and then he sh*t him.

Accidentally, the g*n went off.
I said, "Yeah. All right."

I'm looking at the jury...

And then I hear
the district attorney.

So I'm thinking, "Okay. Yeah.

They've got
a really great case."

At some point, this g*n,

it has to turn and face you,
does it not?

Yes, sir.

And it's your testimony that,
what?

But let's remember,
you were facing that way.

That's right.
I'm facing this way.

Right.

The way you had it was...
Was what happened.

The g*n turns,
and it's just like this?

Is this your testimony,
that it goes...

Oh, I can't say
that's my testimony.

The two of you
look like spaghetti,

is the truth of the matter.

Mr. Black kind of looked like
bloody spaghetti, didn't he?

No. He didn't look
like bloody spaghetti.

You just don't remember
how you were standing?

I remember a whole lot better

than this demonstration
is doing it.

The man sitting before you
cannot tell the truth.

You were told that he and Morris
would go to places.

Not one person told you
they saw those two together ever.

It was convenient for him to say,
yeah,

they were best friends
and they were best buds,

but I never found one person

that ever saw them
go anywhere together.

If it came
out of Bob Durst's mouth

and Bob Durst's mouth alone,
I don't believe it.

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Morris would go to the library
every day

and he would use the Internet
for free.

I think he discovered
who Durst was

and his family's background
and their money.

At some point, he told Durst that,
"If you don't help me,

I'm going to tell New York
where you're at,"

and I think that
is what got him k*lled.

There are areas of bruising
across the shoulders,

multiple red-brown bruises
occasionally blending together.

This is not one blow.

These are multiple blows
across the top of the shoulder.

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You don't get multiple
blows from falling one time.

Those injuries are not
consistent with self-defense.

Didn't happen the way
he told you it happened.

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There's
a b*llet hole in the wall

that was leading from
the living room to the kitchen.

You were told that Morris Black

sh*t the eviction letter.

There's no b*llet holes in it.

There's a b*llet hole
in the wall

because Robert Durst
sh*t and missed Morris Black.

He sh*t, he missed,

he b*at him to the ground,
and he ex*cuted him.

You don't cut somebody up,
another human being,

into pieces and bag him up,
dump him in the bay,

when you act in self-defense.

It just doesn't happen.

You don't butcher somebody,

put him in pieces, bag him up,

dump him in the bay

because there's an accident.

It was explained to me

that I was gonna have to do
the dismemberment...

There was no way around it...

but I think maybe even my
lawyers had a vague suspicion.

"Well, he's not going to be able
to get through this.

"We're going to get
to the dismemberment,

and he's just gonna, "Ach.""

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I was scared to death.

I couldn't leave this corpse
in my apartment.

I couldn't...

I had to get this corpse
out of my apartment, period.

So what did you decide to do
to get rid of the body?

Well,
I decided I'd wait till night

and then I'd pick it up
and carry it out of there,

and then I realized I wasn't
picking up that body

and carrying it anywhere
because it was much...

I mean, I wasn't
strong enough to do that.

I could drag it out,
but I just couldn't see...

I mean,
I thought about putting it

in a sleeping bag or something

and then dragging
the whole thing out,

but, good God,
that's ridiculous.

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Now, Morris had tools.

He had saws and...

And, um, axes, a giant a*.

Uh, I don't think he had a...

I don't think he had a bow saw.

Anyway,
I went and bought a bow saw

and then a bunch of garbage bags
and stuff like that

and went back to...
To the house,

and I'm sure I got more stoned
and more drunk,

and I dismembered the corpse
primarily with the a*

but some with the bow saw

and, I think,
another saw that Morris Black had.

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We worked for days, many days,

getting him ready
for the kind of questions

I knew were going to be coming
on cross-examination.

"Tell us about
what it was like, sir.

"Where did you start to cut
on Morris Black?

"Did you cut his arm off first,

"or did you cut
his leg off first?

"What did you use to cut the leg with?
Show us.

"What part of his leg
did you saw on first, Mr. Durst,

your friend
that you were cutting up?"

There was a concern
on our part that, um...

the way he sometimes
describes things, um,

without a lot of emotion,

hearing him describe
the technical dissection

of that body would
lead someone to believe

he's a cold-blooded k*ller.

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It was very
important to say, "Bob, look.

"Your memory is very fuzzy.

"Your memory on this
is naturally repressed.

"We've had psychiatrists,
psychologists see you.

"They'll all agree.

"For such a horrific event,
it's very common

"that you don't remember
all the details.

Don't try to."

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I did not k*ll my best friend.
I did dismember him.

Took the body parts,

put them in the garbage bags,
and drove to find some place

to dump the garbage bags,
and it immediately became

obvious to me
I can dump them in the water.

It'll sink.
Nobody will have seen them.

The garbage bags are heavy.
That's what I did.

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Had you done any work

to try to figure out
whether the tide

was coming in,
the tide was coming out?

I wouldn't know how to begin.

So you basically just
decided you were gonna...

I figured it was deep.

I'm gonna drop it,
it's gonna sink.

Who cares where
the tide is going?

It's underwater.
Nobody's gonna see it.

Right,
but the bags didn't sink.

- No.
- What happened?

They floated.

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At the dump site that evening,

there was a bag with a right leg
and a bag with a left leg,

right arm, left arm,
and a torso.

But there
was one bag that had obviously

been sliced open not just
with a rock or something,

but some kind
of sharp instrument.

And the
only thing that was missing

from everything that was there
was Morris Black's head.

It was clear to us
that when Durst realized

the bags were floating,
he cut the bag,

picked up the head,
and he took off.

He knew the head was the most
important piece of evidence

about what happened
in that apartment.

There was
no wrestling over the g*n.

I think he shoved Morris down

and he sh*t him
in the back of the head,

and can I prove that?

No, not without the head.

- All right.
- You all may be seated.

Mr. Lewis,
you may proceed.

This case is not
about what happened

to Morris Black's body
after he was dead.

This case is not about
what Bob Durst did

after Morris Black d*ed.

The sole issue for you
ladies and gentlemen to decide

is how Morris Black d*ed.

We started
getting over to the jurors

this thought about,
"It doesn't change what happened

"to Morris Black,
anything that Bob Durst

did with the body afterwards."

They... They put in front of
the jury about a thousand times,

"Was there anything
that Robert Durst could do

"after finding Morris Black dead to...
To prevent his death

or to change the manner
in which he d*ed?" And they...

They brought up
about a zillion examples.

"Can you unstrike a match? No.

"Can you unring a bell?
No.

"If somebody's dead,
is there anything you can do

"to prevent him from dying?

No."

There is no charge
of dismemberment of the corpse.

There is no charge
of destruction of evidence,

nothing that the state
keeps trying to focus you on.

They have to focus you on that
because how Morris Black d*ed...

Self-defense, an accident...

They have woefully failed
to meet their burden.

Their plea that they
came up with,

accidental and self-defense,
is brilliant

because if it's just
two people in a room,

how do you disprove
self-defense?

There was a moment
during my cross-examination

of Cody Cazalas that I thought
was extremely important,

and, to his credit,
he answered honestly.

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Sergeant Cazalas
told you the truth.

That man told you
what the State of Texas

doesn't want to talk about.

Their burden to disprove
beyond all reasonable doubt,

according to their lead detective,
they can't meet it.

Every little saw mark in each
and every one of those leg bones

and arm bones has got
a whole lot of intent in it,

a whole lot of intent of a man
who's getting away with m*rder.

The state's burden is to prove
to you beyond a reasonable doubt

that Bob Durst
had his finger on the trigger

when the g*n went off
and k*lled Morris Black.

Look at every piece of evidence
you heard and consider it.

You can't segment it
and only look

at certain portions of it
and ignore everything else.

That's not proper.

Possibly guilty.
Probably guilty.

We all talked about that.

What that means is not guilty.

What kind of criminal justice
system are we gonna have

when we can't consider
everything that happened

after, during, and before?

It all goes to the man's
state of mind.

It all goes to his intent.

Bob Durst is not guilty
of m*rder.

Bob Durst is not guilty
of m*rder.

Whatever else he may have done

is for another time and place.

Thank you all.

Now to a
courthouse in Galveston, Texas,

where jurors still
have not reached a verdict

in the bizarre m*rder trial of
real estate heir Robert Durst.

The trial itself lasted 6 weeks.

Some people here are beginning
to worry that the jury

might take that long to decide
whether Robert Durst

is guilty of m*rder.

You may be seated.

Mr. Foreman,
I understand you have a verdict.

Yes, your honor.

Will you hand it
to the bailiff?

Will the defendant please rise?

Well,
the verdict of the jury is such.

"We, the jury,
find the defendant Robert Durst

not guilty."

Is there anything the attorneys
would like to say at this point?

Thank you,
ladies and gentlemen.

We also thank the jury
for the sacrifice of their time.

Thank you for all your time

and attention
and your sacrifice.

All right,
ladies and gentlemen of the jury.

This is what the procedure is
that we are going to follow.

First of all,
we're going to take you back

into the jury room...

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- What we did...
- And it was a big struggle for all of us...

Is, we kept going
back to the charge

that was put forth to the jury
as to the actual event,

that one moment in time.

It was a very unpopular
occurrence when the...

When Bob Durst
was found not guilty.

The townspeople, friends,
relatives,

they weren't happy
with the verdict

that was brought forward,

but when Mr. Durst was on the,
uh, stand...

I felt he was talking
from the heart.

Through the course
of the 5 days

of deliberation, Bob never...

He never had more than 3
guilty votes the whole time.

The last one
that changed their mind,

she had a problem finding him
not guilty

because he had
chopped up the body,

and I could understand that.

She was a...
She was a good Christian woman,

very nice lady, but I just said,
"You know, that's...

"That's not what we're
here to do.

"We're here to determine

"if the event
that k*lled Morris Black

"was m*rder or not,
not what happened

to his body after
he was already dead."

I said, "We've got to...
That's our job."

As a homicide investigator,

you work for God

because the victim's not there
to tell his story.

You're there to represent
the victim.

You're there to tell his story.

You're doing that for God.

Um...

there's a lot of truth in that.

To this day,
I feel like I let the...

Can we stop? Thanks.

You told me on the telephone

that DeGuerin might not
want me to talk to you

because he wouldn't
want to see you

in an interview saying
that you had lied

to the jury in Galveston.

Well, they didn't know
what I was gonna say.

So, I mean,
they've always felt that, you know,

they got this home run now.

Now, I get out there
and I say something

that implies that
I made it all up

or that I told the lawyers
and that we all got together

and made it all up or whatever,

that's a disaster.

So they just wanted
to stay away,

and they said about
a zillion times,

"You can't help yourself.

"Right now,
you're a free man 100%.

"You say something
inadvertently,

"and you'll find yourself
charged in New York

"or charged in,
uh, Los Angeles,

"and, uh,
an interview is a big risk for you.

Why do you want
to do an interview?"

Certainly,
you've said to me that you did lie

to the jury in Galveston
in some way,

that your lawyer
encouraged you to,

and I think that's...

Well,
he didn't encourage me to.

We went over the oath,
and from day one,

the oath says,

"You, uh,
promise to tell the truth,

the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth."

"Just make sure
the ones at the end...

"'Tell the truth,
nothing but the truth'...

"That you do exactly that.

"In terms of 'the whole truth,'

"if you want to leave out
something that does not...

"Uh, which makes you
look bad if you tell it

"but does not turn into an untruth,
well, try it.

"Try it.

"If there's something
so terrible that you

"don't want to say it
or you think could

be construed the wrong way,
then just leave it out."

I'm saying,
was there something that was

relevant in Galveston that,
you know,

would have had an influence,

where you knew
that you were saying

something that was limited?

Let me see what else
I can think of

where they didn't
specifically ask it

and I specifically
didn't go there.

I'd have to think about it.

Next time you interview me,
I'll have that, and I'll...

I'll think of a few things.

Shall we take a break
for a few minutes?

- Want to take a break?
- Sure.

Take a break.

There's coffee now.

Sign this.

Okay. Thank you,

and there's orange juice and...

I did not knowingly
purposefully lie.

I don't know, but the room...

The room is the same
room we had,

the absolute same.

I did not knowingly
purposefully lie.

Yeah,
and then they're pissed off

with this sh*t.

Right.

I did not knowingly
purposefully

intentionally lie.

I did make mistakes.

So I told...

_

What?

_

_

Oh, oh, oh.
I was reviewing...

_

I hear what you're saying.

You could hear
everything I said.

I never intently...
I mean, how do I...

I mean, you know,
it's a question

of not what do I say,
but how do I say it.

I never intentionally
purposefully lied.

I made mistakes,

did not tell the whole truth.

Nobody tells the whole truth.