From 1968 to 2010,
the t*rror1st organization ETA m*rder*d
852 people and wounded 2,661 others.
Source: Spanish Ministry of the Interior.
ETA was founded in 1959,
during Francisco Franco's dictatorship,
to fight for the independence
of the Basque Country.
Following Franco's death in 1975,
ETA became increasingly violent.
The organization committed
more than 90% of its murders
after the transition to democracy.
The Spanish state as well as far-right
and parapolice groups waged
an illicit w*r against ETA
in which 73 people were k*lled.
Source: Basque government.
Francisco Ruiz and Josu Urrutikoetxea
do not know each other
and have only crossed paths once.
This is part of their story.
I moved to Euskadi because...
Well, I am one of those kids
born in the aftermath
of the Spanish Civil w*r.
I moved to Euskadi when I was three.
Then later on, at seventeen,
I became a licensed plumber.
And that was until I was
28 or 29 years old,
when I moved to Ciudad Real.
I built my life there.
That was where I got married,
and that was where raised four daughters.
And to be honest,
I really... Well the truth is
I've always really loved Euskadi.
So I have fond memories of that land.
I finished my military service.
Galdakao, where I lived,
posted three police officer jobs,
which required a public service exam.
And, well, I didn't particularly want
to be a police officer.
It wasn't something
I had ever thought about.
But the truth is that I realized
I had to bring home a salary
because, by that point,
I already had four daughters.
So I had to bring in money.
Francisco, what happened
on the 9th of February 1976?
Well, on that day,
the 9th of February in '76, I was on duty.
I started at 6:00 a.m.
In addition to our regular duties
as officers, as local police officers,
we also had to work
for the mayor, as bodyguards.
The mayor always went out
at 8:00 a.m. sharp.
And on that day, it was my responsibility,
as the senior officer,
to wait for the mayor
outside his house, by his door.
And to walk him to his car.
It was about 500 meters down the road.
He always came out
at the same time, of course,
and we always walked down the same street.
And then, twenty meters from his doorstep,
from where the mayor lived,
an ETA cell ambushed us.
They jumped out
with handguns and machine g*ns.
And, well, they riddled us with b*ll*ts.
They shot the mayor.
I think it was five or six times.
They k*lled the mayor
right then and there, on the spot.
I was shot in the chest several times,
I got some b*ll*ts in my stomach too.
But I did have a moment to react,
and I threw myself down
between two parked cars.
So that, well, that saved my life.
But as the t*rrorists were fleeing,
they aimed a machine g*n at me
and fired more rounds.
And so then I got
six more b*ll*ts in my body,
from the waist down.
But, hey...
I was alive. I was alive at that moment.
I didn't lose consciousness.
So what I did was...
Because I was a Catholic,
not much of a churchgoer,
but I was a Catholic,
I asked the Virgin Mary, I prayed to her...
...so that she would spare my life...
to raise my daughters.
And, eventually, I passed out.
They told me...
People were scared.
Because the whole time I was lying there,
no one came to help.
And it was the town's main street.
It was 8:00 a.m.,
when everyone's leaving for work.
Later on, they called my wife. And she...
Well, she feared the worst.
My wife was speechless.
In that moment, my wife had no words.
And then a police car came to pick her up
and took her to the hospital where I was.
I was in the operating room,
and they told her that
they wouldn't bet a cent on my survival.
Because of all the b*ll*ts in my body.
But I think that prayer I said worked.
The Lady up there helped me.
We were there
for a total of five months. Five months.
I spent five months in the hospital.
Then they discharged me, and I went home.
But I went home in a wheelchair.
And the first time I went out,
I noticed that there was...
I felt a lot of judgement
directed toward me.
People were staying away.
I noticed that people who I knew
would cross the road to avoid me.
There was already
a lot of fear in the Basque Country.
They were scared to be seen
with a victim of terrorism
by an abertzale, a Basque nationalist.
And, honestly, that hurt me very deeply.
It was as painful as the actual attack.
To be cast out of that community
where I'd lived
since I was three years old,
well, since I was six,
when I moved to Galdakao.
I lived in that town. Everybody knew me.
So, to be rejected for being a victim,
that was a terrible blow for me.
When my wife went
out to the shops to get groceries,
when she went to the butcher's,
well, he would have
no problem just speaking his mind.
With the shop full of people he'd say,
"They should have k*lled
that fascist a long time ago."
"And screw that police officer
for protecting him."
When my wife came home,
I would see the tears in her eyes.
So I had to make a choice.
I talked to my family,
and we decided
to leave the Basque Country.
As if we were... I don't know.
Like exiles.
We had to leave that area.
Have you felt hatred
towards the people that carried out
the attack on you and the mayor?
Have I felt hatred? Of course, I have.
I've felt hatred,
just like I felt fear in those days.
The investigation into your attack
was never resolved.
Some of the members
of the t*rror1st organization ETA
who attacked you could not be identified,
and then others were pardoned in 1977.
We have put together a documentary
that is based around a conversation,
an interview with an historic ETA member,
whose name is Josu Urrutikoetxea.
I don't know if you...
Yes. Josu Ternera.
Coincidentally, he actually gave us
new information relating to your attack.
And you, at least, deserve
to know this information.
Wow. This is the first I've heard
about an ETA t*rror1st sharing
details about that day.
I don't know if you'd like to see
the footage, or if you'd rather not...
Of course! Of course I want to see it.
It's been a long time. I'd like to hear
something I don't already know
about the attack.
Well, then, I'd like you to watch.
Okay.
I know you don't like
to be called Ternera,
but when talking to people who know you,
former associates
and former members of ETA,
they call you that.
Why the nickname?
Well, it happened over drinks
at a bar in Saint-Jean-de-Luz.
There was someone... I know who they are,
but I'm not going to tell you.
And they said,
"sh*t, you reacted like a calf,"
which in Spanish is "ternera."
So what happened next?
Soon afterwards,
one of the people there that night
went on to be arrested
in the Southern Basque Country...
and was tortured.
And this person repeated
what they heard that night.
"Yes, in this bar, on such and such date,
so-and-so and so-and-so were there,
and this other guy... and among them,
a guy who they called 'Ternera'."
And they said, "Who, him?"
They showed the guy a photo,
and he said, "Yes, that's him."
And then that's what was written
on the summons documents.
That's where the nickname first appeared.
- Josu Ternera.
- Yes.
Josu Ternera, Josu Ternera...
Admiral Carrero Blanco,
president of Spain, has been assassinated.
He was attacked by t*rrorists.
ETA'S MILITARY ARM RESTRUCTURES
AND MAKES URRUTIKOETXEA NUMBER TWO
"JOSU TERNERA" NOW TOP ETA LEADER,
DIRECTLY CONTROLS MILITARY
ETA'S MOST POWERFUL LEADER EVER
Jos Antonio Urrutikoetxea
has been arrested.
Jos Antonio Urrutikoetxea,
alias Josu Ternera, is considered to be
ETA's number one.
NO EXTRADITIONS
FREE JOSU!
Today, French authorities handed over
Josu Ternera, a top-member of ETA,
to Spanish police.
He is suspected
of leading ETA's international arm.
You sons of b*tches!
Murderers! Murderers...
Enough is enough!
Enough is enough...
Josu Ternera was released
from prison today.
Long live ETA's military arm!
Obtaining a legislative seat
is always better
than obtaining a handgun and using it.
That's always better.
As painful as it is,
I think he has the right to do it.
Josu Ternera, tell your former comrades
to let us, the people,
enact our own revolution,
our own changes at the polls.
NO TO ETA - THAT'S ENOUGH
The Batasuna member of Parliament
and ETA's former number one,
Josu Ternera, is at large.
We do not know the whereabouts
of Mr. Urrutikoetxea.
I have no information and no clue
if we'll learn where he is.
The Government will begin talks with ETA.
What was Josu Ternera's advantage?
He knew the importance of Parliament.
ETA has decided to permanently disarm.
FORWARD ON BOTH FRONTS
It's the end of the road
according to a key figure, Josu Ternera.
"ETA was born from the people,
and now it dissolves
back into the people."
These are the first images
of Josu Ternera
in custody after 17 years on the run.
Josu Ternera has been arrested.
He was ETA's last top member.
...congratulate you on arresting
Jos Antonio Urrutikoetxea Bengoetxea,
Josu Ternera.
Today, the Cabinet has
requested that France extradite
the ETA member Josu Ternera.
A French judge acquitted
the ETA member Josu Ternera
of the charge of membership in ETA
between 2011 and 2013.
He has another trial pending in France
and will then be extradited to Spain
to stand trial for the attack
on the Civil Guard barracks in Zaragoza
and for financing ETA
through pubs run by sympathizers.
FACE TO FACE WITH ETA:
CONVERSATIONS WITH A TERRORIS"I have been, am now, and will always be
a member of ETA, and I'm proud of it."
That's what you said to a court in Paris.
Yes. I was a member of ETA, obviously.
Are you proud of it?
I was an ETA member.
The circumstances when I said that
at the time, in the '90s,
are completely different from
the circumstances when I joined,
and from the situation now.
By no means do I deny
that it was me who said that.
You were one
of the most noteworthy members of ETA,
one of the longest sitting in the
history of that t*rror1st organization.
You joined shortly after it was founded.
You were involved
in almost all of ETA's key moments.
You've spent 12 years in prison,
over 20 years in hiding,
and you announced the disbandment
of the organization in 2018.
In total, it's been almost 50 years.
Was ETA your life?
ETA is part of my life. There's no doubt.
As you just said,
I joined ETA as a volunteer,
when I was 17 years old.
I'm 71 now, going on 72.
So in one way or another,
well, obviously there's a relationship.
Although, I must clarify,
ETA has disappeared.
What do you expect from this interview?
My expectation for this interview is that...
Up until today,
other people have spoken for me.
Not only spoken, but written books.
And for a number of reasons,
I haven't had
many opportunities to express myself.
We're in France. I don't know
if we can say specifically where.
I don't mind, but we're not in France.
With all due respect,
you can think, and you do think in fact,
that we're in France. Okay?
But I don't think we're in France.
It's known as the French Basque Country,
but for me, it's Euskal Herria,
that is, the Northern Basque Country.
Therefore, I'll continue
this conversation... on those terms.
I'm going to, of course, respect
the language you use.
I do think we're in France.
At least, legally, we're in France.
We're in Saint-Jean-de-Luz.
For many people in Spain,
your name is synonymous with terrorism
as well as with brutality and cruelty.
And, at the same time, all the people
who took part in the peace process
that ended the t*rror1st organization ETA,
also people from the Spanish government,
consider you to be a key player
in reaching the end of that violence.
And?
How do you reconcile those two sides?
Mine is not the only case.
But they...
they made an example out of me.
That's where the narrative
comes into play,
from their point of view,
the narrative of winners and losers.
For them, there's only one narrative.
And I am cast as one of the villains.
A character stripped of
everything that makes a person human.
I was dehumanized.
They talk about me as if,
as if I had horns coming out of my head
and a forked tongue,
or as if we were bloodthirsty creatures.
I am a person just like any other.
I had and I have political,
social, and cultural beliefs.
I have a family, like any other person.
Obviously, I was a member of ETA.
And, obviously, I've been judged
and sentenced for it
by the French government.
But not by the Spanish government.
And most of my work
as an ETA member
has been paving the way
for the resolution of this conflict.
And, thus, to stop the conflict
and move forward, to turn the page
using political negotiation.
The Government will begin
talks with ETA
and will not waver in its stance
that political matters
shall only be resolved
by those who legitimately represent
the will
of the people.
Let's start at the end,
in the year 2005.
Zapatero's socialist government begins
talks to try to end the violence,
and you are in charge of
negotiating on ETA's behalf.
Were you the leader of ETA at that time?
Absolutely not.
During the years from 2002 to 2006,
I had one job and one job only,
which was solely and exclusively
to work on political relationships.
In addition to that, to work on directing
or to try and direct
the situation towards a resolution,
to overcome the conflict
through negotiation.
You weren't their leader.
- But you negotiated in ETA's name.
- Yes.
You always talked to Jess Eguiguren,
who, at the time, was the president
of the Socialist Party in Euskadi.
Yes, exactly.
I was quite surprised
that the persona of Josu Urrutikoetxea,
or Josu Ternera, barely got any attention
compared to the other parties
in the negotiation.
You were a very active participant
in the talks,
so for you not to receive
more of the attention...
I ask you, please, not to call me that.
Call me Josu Urrutikoetxea. That's fine.
But not Josu Ternera. Because, for me...
- That's what I've been doing.
- Yes, but...
I said Ternera just now. I was talking
about how other people refer to you.
- Okay. Right.
- That's not how I'll address you.
Right.
Well,
I don't know because I'm not involved
in the hierarchies of the separatist left.
They did what they thought was
best at that time,
so that's what they did.
In June 2005,
while you were holding negotiations,
there was a victimless ETA attack
on La Peineta stadium in Madrid.
- Yes.
- How did you feel? Any comments?
I was troubled, obviously.
What do you mean by "troubled"?
It affected me. Well, I don't know.
I... I heard
the operation had happened and...
Well, it would've been better
if it hadn't happened.
Because maybe it would have been more...
It would have laid
the groundwork better for an agreement.
Additionally,
during that first phase
of the negotiations,
there was a jihadist attack in London
on the 7th of July.
That attack resulted in
more than 50 people
being k*lled in that city.
What was that experience like for you?
Well, I think that type of...
That type of operation could be described
as senseless violence.
That is, that it's totally meaningless.
But I'm not going to get into that.
I don't know what goes on in the minds
of those jihadist organizations.
I don't share their beliefs,
which are basically based on the idea
that any citizen, man or woman,
who has voted for a particular government,
whether in Paris or London,
is a collaborator and is accountable
for the actions
that these different governments
have carried out
in Afghanistan, Yemen, Sudan, or Pakistan.
That's what I think.
I don't agree with senseless violence.
But did you see those attacks
and think, "This is reprehensible"?
I'll repeat what I just said.
That doesn't fit, at all,
with my way of thinking.
I don't understand it.
As much as they try to justify...
And I'm talking here
about religious extremists.
When they say
that any citizen is a justifiable victim,
I think that's absolutely insane.
That's the religious extremists' opinion.
Let me ask you,
what's the difference between
k*lling for your God
and k*lling for your homeland?
k*lling... To me...
I don't think...
Not you nor anyone else...
has ever heard me say
that k*lling is good.
Never.
I come from
a humble, working-class family.
Both my mother and my father came
from a farming background.
Ours was
a very traditional Catholic family.
Since I was a kid
I was practically forced to...
Well the usual, to go to mass on Sundays.
It's kind of... That's the expectation.
They were religious, and they thought
their family should think like them.
Were you a believer?
What would you call a believer?
We were basically forced to repeat things.
I'm a believer,
but I don't believe in God.
Since the beginning,
humans have believed in something.
Your beliefs are one thing.
Your religion is another.
What do you believe in?
I believe in my surroundings,
in what I see, in nature...
...and in human beings.
You learned the ten commandments,
I'm sure.
I had to. I went to a religious school.
Have you broken many of those commandments
by being an ETA member?
By being a member?
If I wasn't religious
when I was in the ETA,
I didn't break any rules.
I don't believe that's possible.
The seventh commandment,
"Thou shalt not steal."
Now that you mention it,
I didn't even know
the seventh commandment was "don't steal."
And?
Have you broken it or not?
What's that got to do with it?
I've broken it, obviously.
- And "Thou shalt not k*ll"?
- I didn't break it.
How'd you find out about ETA?
ETA, during the time of its inception,
at the end of the '50s...
It was sometimes big news,
and it was in the papers.
That's how we heard about it.
So there was that
and, of course, what we heard at home.
Is that how you heard about it?
Like, "So-and-so from the village
has joined ETA" or...?
Yes, obviously.
Things like that were said.
Then I realized that the only way...
the only valid way that existed
to stand up to the system
that was oppressing us,
that didn't even let us breathe,
was something recently started.
And that was ETA.
At that moment in time,
I was 17 years old.
Somebody from my circle of friends said,
"Look, I'm in ETA.
Do you want to join ETA?" And I said yes.
CIVIL GUARD - POLICE CHECKPOINCIVIL GUARD TRAFFIC OFFICER SHOT TO DEATH
ONE ASSAILANT WAS k*lled
BY THE CIVIL GUARD
You joined ETA in the year 1968,
and shortly thereafter
came the first fatality
from an ETA attack,
which was police officer Jos Pardines.
During that time,
did you think that k*lling was
a line that should not be crossed?
No, because a very significant aspect
of the Basque people, men and women,
was to stand up to
the system that was oppressing us.
So we needed to use any means necessary.
So, well...
Violence included.
Any means necessary.
That wasn't just what ETA thought,
or what I thought.
It's what many, many people thought.
Shortly after the death
of Officer Pardines,
the first member of ETA also died.
He was the person who had k*lled Pardines,
Txabi Etxebarrieta.
So, when you saw that happen
to a fellow ETA member,
did you consider giving up
your own life too, for your homeland?
The moment you join ETA,
you know the consequences.
And there will be consequences.
So dying is a real possibility.
For your country.
For certain ideas, yes.
Did you receive
military training from ETA?
Yes.
What did it consist of?
Well, back then, not much.
Not much, because in those days,
and I'm referring to
the early days after its inception,
ETA was divided into four fronts.
The political front, the military front,
the workers' front,
and the cultural front.
Military training wasn't necessary
for us at that time
because we weren't
part of the military front.
There was basic instruction,
which consisted of making, uh,
improvised expl*sives,
Molotov c*ck,
the basic mechanics and use of expl*sives,
and also the operation
and use of handguns.
So they taught you how to sh**t?
If you can call that teaching.
It was more
just showing us how a g*n works.
We were part of the cultural front,
so we learned how to use a firearm.
You took one or two shots,
and that was that.
When did they
give you your first g*n?
The first weapon I touched,
not that they gave me but that I touched,
I must have been...
eighteen or nineteen years old.
And it was just to see how it worked.
After that, the first weapon I owned,
it was...
It must have been back in 1971,
and ETA didn't give me my first weapon.
And when I fled and went into exile
in Euskal Herria,
in the Northern Basque Country,
in Iparralde,
I was in the political front.
In those days, only people
in the military front carried weapons.
So I knew I was at risk.
Because I was crossing
the border illegally
to do my political work.
And I stress, "political,"
in the Southern Basque Country.
Because of that, I bought a g*n.
I bought a g*n off of a smuggler,
a Basque smuggler
who sold me a g*n made in Bayonne.
MAB, that was the brand.
- MAP?
- MAB. M-A-B.
Manufacturer d'armes
de Bayonne, in French.
g*n Manufacturers of Bayonne.
A 7.65 caliber. It cost me 500 francs.
Because the organization's weapons
were meant exclusively
for the members of the military front.
How many times did you use a weapon?
- In my life?
- Mm-hmm.
Well... sometimes.
But the times that I have used one,
it's always been in self-defense.
Were you a member of any cells?
Yes.
Which ones?
Well, one was...
- Just one?
- No...
Well, at several different points in time,
you know? Yes.
What was your cell's name?
It didn't have a name.
Some cells had a name,
or they were given names later.
Where were they based?
Well, one of them was
a traveling operation.
Another was in Vizcaya.
And what year was this?
The '70s.
Did you take part in
any attacks with fatalities?
Yes.
Can you tell us which ones?
Well, yes, I can tell you.
Not directly,
but indirectly.
I wasn't part of the actual cell,
but I helped with the planning
for the Carrero Blanco attack.
And, uh...
And another operation,
the mayor of Galdakao.
ETA assassinated him?
ETA k*lled him and claimed it, obviously.
MAYOR OF GALDAKAO m*rder*d
WHEN HE LEFT HIS HOUSE YESTERDAY MORNING
The fact that you participated
in the attack on Carrero Blanco is
a story that's already well known.
But we had no idea about your involvement
in the m*rder of the mayor of Galdakao.
What role did you play
in that particular attack?
The one I had to play.
And that was?
Whatever it was.
I was involved with that cell
to carry out an operation,
which would result in
a person being k*lled.
Were you responsible
for the sh**ting?
No.
Would you have pulled the trigger,
if you were?
At the time, yes.
I think the attack on the mayor
of Galdakao was in 1976.
Franco was already dead.
I don't know exactly, but yes.
I don't know exactly, but that sounds...
The system, as we've always said,
the fascist government had not made
even the smallest steps
towards what would later be called...
Uh, it was called...
the reform.
So we pressured the government.
ETA put out not one,
but several statements...
And these statements said
that they needed to resign from office
or they would be considered
accomplices to the system.
That was the threat...
It wasn't a threat. It was an analysis
of the political situation.
As unelected representatives,
they were participating
in the repression and the suffering
of the Basque people.
I see that as a threat.
You can see it how you want,
but that's how it was.
And they all knew about it.
They were so well-informed
that many of them had bodyguards.
- They had bodyguards?
- Yes.
- And the mayor of Galdakao?
- Yes.
- Did he have a bodyguard?
- Yes.
The other fatal attack
which you've admitted to participating in
is the m*rder of the president
of the Francoist government,
Luis Carrero Blanco, in the year 1973.
OGRO (GILLO PONTECORVO, 1979)
Ask if
anything has happened to the president.
The officers
in the other car have been injured,
and we are trying to locate
the president's car.
It looks like
the car on the roof is the president's.
It looks like he's dead.
t*rrorists IDENTIFIED,
PART OF SO-CALLED "MILITARY FRONT"
In January 1972,
three tons of expl*sives were stolen
from the munitions depot in Hernani.
They would later be used in that attack.
Were you involved in the robbery?
Yes.
And later, were you involved
in the attack on Luis Carrero Blanco?
Not directly because I wasn't
part of the so-called... Txikia Cell.
But I was involved
in certain preparatory phases
and planning aspects
for the operation against Carrero Blanco.
Specifically?
Well, I just told you.
The robbery?
Obviously.
Anything else?
Well, technical stuff,
such as transporting material
or other technical details.
That operation wasn't supposed to turn out
the way it did.
Before Carrero Blanco was named president,
ETA's intention with that operation was
to kidnap him.
So we could negotiate for the freedom
of political prisoners, men and women.
What happened next?
When everything was ready,
all the information prepared and reviewed,
and the logistics in place,
Carrero Blanco was
unexpectedly named president.
And that meant
we would be encountering
much tighter security details.
So the cell that was in charge
of this specific operation,
the one to kidnap him...
Well they had to adapt.
They had to conform their plans.
You were already settled
in the French Basque Country
in the early '70s.
And there, an attempt was made
on your life
by the extreme right-wing group
Batalln Vasco Espaol,
Basque Country Battalion.
I think it was June 1975.
- Do you remember what happened?
- Yes.
I remember that day vividly.
At the time, my wife was in the kitchen.
I was sitting in the bed,
writing, instead of at the table.
And my eldest son, who was
about a year old, just over a year,
was lying on the bed, next to me.
And my daughter,
who had just been born, was in a room
that faced the side of the house
where my car was parked.
I went immediately to the room
where the expl*si*n came from,
the room where my youngest daughter
was lying in her crib.
And, well, it was covered
in shards of glass. Debris was everywhere.
She was lucky
that nothing happened to her.
Well, she did have ruptured eardrums,
but nothing more serious than that.
Although that was serious enough.
She was saved
because the bed was higher than the crib,
and all the glass
from the expl*si*n swept over her.
So after that,
we went out through the back door
because the entrance was on fire.
And when we got outside,
I saw that the car was on fire.
It was wrecked,
and next to it there was a body.
Who was it?
It was the body of one of the members
of the organization who planted the b*mb.
He had planted the b*mb with the intention
of detonating it the next day,
when I'd be taking the car with my family.
How did you feel when you realized
one of your children could've died
in that attack?
Well, we could have all died.
What did I feel? Well...
that they were victims of...
in this case... They would have been
victims of... or they were...
They would have been,
and they were, obviously,
victims of an attack
by the Spanish government.
Did it cause you to have second thoughts
about the bombs ETA would later place,
that would put other people
in the same situation your family was in?
Obviously. I mean...
Armed violence...
for me,
and... and for ETA,
armed violence has never been
a goal, in and of itself.
Never.
But decades and decades of armed violence
have produced countless victims
on both sides.
Permanent victims, I mean,
victims with irreversible damage.
And I think
that those victims...
should be acknowledged.
And the confrontation, the conflict...
Well, it has resulted in us...
basically forgetting,
basically losing sight of
the... the intentions behind it all.
They've been obscured by...
by the twisted consequences
of this spiral of violence,
committed by both sides,
that just increased and increased.
And that spiral of violence
has driven all of us,
men and women,
on both sides, to become mutually...
to become mutually numb
to other people's suffering,
to their pain and suffering.
Did that happen to you?
Obviously.
But that was more
in the aftermath, I think.
Because in that moment,
when you're in the middle
of that violence...
somehow it...
it somehow prevents you...
from considering the ethical aspects,
from being compassionate to others,
to your opponent's suffering.
And I'm talking about both sides.
I mean, there's no empathy
for the other person's suffering.
There's no effort
to put yourself in their shoes.
And the other side
doesn't consider that either.
Have you ever celebrated someone's death?
Absolutely not. Never.
Some members of ETA
have admitted celebrating attacks.
Have you ever celebrated an attack?
No. No.
The only death I've ever celebrated...
I'm not sure about Carrero Blanco, maybe.
Definitely Franco.
My fellow Spaniards,
Franco... has died.
Franco's death did not satisfy
ETA's pursuit of their objectives.
Quite the opposite,
if we take the numbers into account.
In 1979, 80 deaths.
In 1980, 98 deaths.
Almost two people k*lled a week.
What did you want to achieve
with all these murders?
What ETA wanted to do,
wanted to "achieve,"
to use your words,
at that time, was to bring
the Spanish government to the table
in order to initiate conversations.
That would allow the conflict
to be resolved through negotiation.
So you used dead bodies
to pressure the Government to negotiate.
Obviously, to destabilize the Government
so that they would consider us and think,
"Well, in order to prevent
more deaths from happening,
let's see what it is...
what it is that these people really want,
these people causing these deaths."
"What is it that they want?"
"Let's go knock on their door."
Weren't you troubled by the fact
that the organization you were part of
had k*lled 98 people in one year?
I'm telling you,
it's not about being troubled.
And, I'm telling you...
I'm using the same word
you used to describe
the attack on La Peineta.
I've always thought
those deaths could've been avoided.
Were you friends with Yoyes?
I don't know if you could say
we were friends, but, yes, I knew her.
Mara Dolores Gonzlez Catarain, Yoyes,
she was the first woman to lead ETA.
She ended up leaving
the organization in 1979,
and fled to Mexico.
According to her friend,
you and others went to say goodbye
before she fled to Mexico. Is that true?
Yes, along with others who also went,
I saw her.
Not only then.
I was with Yoyes in Mexico too.
When was that?
I don't remember exactly,
but when she was in Mexico.
When she was an exile in Mexico?
- Yes.
- After she had left ETA.
Yeah.
So even though Yoyes had left the group,
you went to Mexico and met with her.
Of course. We had
lunch, dinner, went for walks...
Yes.
ETA assassinated Yoyes
on the 10th of September 1986,
in the main square of her town,
while she was with her son.
She was 32 years old.
YOYES TRAITOR
YOYES SNITCH
How did you feel
when Yoyes was k*lled?
It was different, it was...
I don't know. It's very hard to express
how I felt at that time. Very hard.
I...
I felt, and I feel, deep sorrow
because, as I've already said,
I knew her, and we had
a relationship, well sort of.
But at that time...
ETA's leadership at the time
considered
uh, that...
the choice that Yoyes had made
by getting in touch with the officials
of the Spanish Ministry of the Interior...
Well, it's obvious that when she decided
to negotiate an agreement
or make a deal with the enemy
about a number of things,
it meant that she became part of
a divisive policy of reintegration,
put forward by the government,
the government of Felipe Gonzlez.
Crossing a line, so to speak,
contacting someone
from the Ministry of the Interior...
Was that why Yoyes was k*lled?
What was obvious is
that the organization...
thought that it was necessary
to cut out the cancer, so to speak,
that came from her choice,
considering that she was...
a... very important figure,
individually speaking, I mean.
Did you take part in that decision?
No.
I want to read
from Yoyes's personal diary.
"I, Mara Dolores Gonzlez Catarain,
declare that I have been threatened by ETA
when they found out my intentions
of returning from exile
to live in Southern Euskadi
with my family."
"It is unacceptable that an organization
which considers itself revolutionary uses
fascist or Stalinist tactics
with people who were once members
of that organization."
As Yoyes wrote in her letter,
did ETA use fascist tactics with her?
No. I don't consider
them to be fascist tactics,
but rather the consequences
of a political cause.
Has the occasion ever arisen...?
Have you ever bumped into
one of Yoyes's family members?
No.
If you could say something to them,
what would you say?
That they have my deepest sympathies.
In 1988, Yoyes's sister said
that ETA had sentenced her to death
just for thinking differently.
I'm deeply sorry to say that
I don't share that opinion because
I don't think ETA ever k*lled
anyone who didn't share their ideals.
It... It would've been because,
one way or another,
the person was collaborating
with the oppressor
or collaborating with oppressive actions
against the pro-independence left.
Do you think
that any political cause justifies m*rder?
Uh, listen, k*lling is not okay.
Neither this death or any other
would have happened
if the government hadn't ignored
the demands of a very significant segment
of the Basque population.
But the only response received
was oppression.
Allow me to clarify what you mean
by "a significant part"
of the Basque population.
Okay.
Election results at the time showed that,
in some respects,
the pro-independence
Basque left was represented,
but its most well-known party,
Herri Batasuna,
never got more than
15 or 16 percent of the vote.
That wasn't exactly a very large turnout.
It's a very significant segment.
I stand by what I said.
When you talk about the Basque people,
maybe you should qualify.
"One segment" of the Basque population.
Yes, because, in this case,
it should be defined regionally too.
It shouldn't just be based on
which ever political party you align with.
It should also be based on your region.
Let's say that, percentage-wise...
That's what I'm saying.
...the majority
of the Basque population
have never supported ETA's ideology
across the board in elections.
So, do you think
Yoyes' assassination was a mistake?
I think that, at that time,
as a member of the organization,
I... well, I complied
with the group's decision,
a decision that was made
for political reasons. That's it.
Do you know
how to make a car b*mb?
No.
No.
In just two years, from 1986 to '87,
four car bombs caused 49 deaths.
Ten of those k*lled were children.
Were you part
of ETA's leadership at the time?
No.
Not the political
or military fronts?
I wasn't, no. I was
in the international branch.
That wasn't part of the leadership?
No.
Or the political leadership?
No.
The international branch
isn't related at all
to the rest of the branches
in the organization.
Who did you report to?
Well... to people in the ETA leadership.
Did you have any second thoughts at all,
knowing that the use of such methods
could result in many unintended victims?
I... I don't think anyone knew
that there would be unintended victims.
Who didn't know?
When you change your tactics,
no one knows
if that change could suddenly mean
that there will be unintended victims.
- But it happened so soon.
- Well, yes.
- So soon after...
- Yeah, exactly.
I don't know exactly if it was
the first car b*mb or the second,
but by that point
there were already victims.
- Yes, but there's...
- They had nothing to do with ETA's cause.
And I don't like
to distinguish between deaths,
but ETA does.
Uh, well, no,
because it's reprehensible to do that.
If anyone has, how do I put it?
If anyone has distinguished
between victims,
then it's been the Government. Here's
an example, off the top of my head...
And ETA didn't?
Never.
Did they lessen the victims? Yes. But, no,
they never distinguished between them.
For example,
I can think of the attack
that was against...
I... don't think he was
president yet. It was Aznar.
A person died in that attack.
I don't know
if they were at the door... Someone died.
Press releases condemned the attack,
but that person was not mentioned.
Yes, they said
that someone had died, but that's all.
So they did distinguish
between the victims.
Because who got all the attention?
Aznar, in that case.
Someone was k*lled in the Aznar attack,
but it was barely mentioned.
The thing is,
the pro-independence left
did not distinguish between victims.
It has been done, but not by the ETA.
Do you remember
what happened on the 19th of June 1987?
No... The 19th of June 1987.
No, not really.
That year... no. I mean,
a lot of things happened that year.
I... I don't remember that exact date.
- Hipercor.
- Ah, of course, yes.
Hello. Yes?
- Good afternoon.
- Good afternoon.
I'm calling on behalf of ETA.
JUNE 19TH
The Hipercor on Meridiana Ave.
will explode at 3:30 p.m.
People should definitely leave
the parking garage.
- 3:30 p.m.?
- 3:40 p.m.
Everyone should leave, especially
from the garage. But no cars.
Long live Euskadi.
I'm surprised you don't remember.
No... No.
Well, why would I? I mean...
- Well, because of its importance.
- Yes, okay, but...
I can tell you other dates
I remember from that same year.
Like...
when there was, I think it was,
the biggest raid
since the Vel' d'Hiver Roundup
in 1944 in Paris, in France.
I remember that date.
Uh, but there are so many dates...
Li... Like you said, it was important.
I know you're right about that.
Because of the repercussions.
And because of how everything went down.
Uh, well, I... I should've remembered it.
What did you think when you realized
ETA had m*rder*d 21 people,
including four children, in a supermarket
in a working-class neighborhood
of Barcelona?
What do I think? Well,
uh, that... that those repercussions, well,
they were caused
by a mistake made by the organization.
Hipercor was a mistake?
I think so.
I consider it to be a mistake...
because of...
uh, the fact that...
that the leadership of ETA
put their trust in...
a government, an administration,
and that government had a role,
which was to protect its citizens.
And despite ETA having given two warnings
so that they would evacuate,
they didn't evacuate.
It reached a point
where the government was condemned
for having failed
in their civil responsibilities.
Because the role of the government is
to protect its citizens.
Uh, especially in a case like this where...
uh, where they had been given
two warnings about a b*mb
that was in a supermarket building
where there were...
um, whe... where there were
hundreds of people.
Hundreds.
Let me see if I understand.
Was this a mistake made by ETA or not?
Come on now.
I said it's a mistake, in terms of
ETA's assessment of the situation.
So they fell into the trap.
They fell into the Government's trap.
You think that you've got
it all worked out,
that all the bases are covered,
like when ETA warned the government
that there was a b*mb in the...
I don't know, wherever it was.
You'd think the people responsible
would go to the place and evacuate it.
And this approach had worked up until now.
So why change anything?
It was a mistake, a huge miscalculation.
It was a major error
that had irreversible consequences,
and those consequences would affect
working-class people. That's it.
That's it?
All because the police didn't evacuate?
The objective wasn't to k*ll 21 people.
That happened
because the police didn't evacuate.
Come on.
When you put a car b*mb
in the parking lot of a supermarket,
there's a high possibility
that it will explode with people there.
That's exactly the mistake.
That's the mistake,
a miscalculation of the consequences
of targeting a place populated
with hundreds or thousands of people.
And on top of that, the fact that...
that you're trusting a government
which doesn't carry out its duties.
Are you saying that ETA only meant
to cause property damage in the attack?
Exactly. And that's what they said
when they claimed responsibility.
The remains of the expl*sives
from the car b*mb at Hipercor,
as well as the shrapnel,
were mixed with... They found soap residue,
and this soap caused the fire to spread
much farther than it otherwise would have.
And because of that,
some victims were k*lled by the fire.
They burned.
When you prepare a car b*mb in that way,
there must be some other motive,
not just to cause property damage.
You're going a little too far,
and I'll explain why.
If you want to be a t*rror1st,
it's very easy.
ETA's purpose was absolutely not
to carry out t*rror1st attacks.
Terrorism is what we've seen in London,
Paris, and, closer to home,
in Madrid in 2004.
So, ETA's objective...
which was clarified
again and again following the attack,
was that no victims were ever intended.
Never.
The goal was
to cause damage, financial loss.
And if the b*mb set fire to the,
what do you call it...?
The... The warehouse...
Then there would be even more damage.
When we discussed the tactics
of religious extremism earlier,
you said that it was meaningless
and that it's insane
to treat any citizen
as a justifiable victim.
Isn't that the same thing
you did in Hipercor?
No.
Absolutely not.
ETA's objective with that operation...
Their objective was made clear.
And that objective was
to cause property damage.
By no means...
In... In no way whatsoever was
the objective ever to...
You're going too far when you compare
ETA to religious extremism.
Whether in Madrid, London, or Syria,
jihadists stand by their actions.
And they go further,
justifying unintended victims.
The Madrid bombings
resulted in 2,000 victims,
and they would have been happy with more.
But none of ETA's attacks,
for example, Hipercor...
None of the attacks in ETA's history had
the goal of causing unintended victims,
as you said.
Absolutely not.
But there were.
Clearly, there were.
And we're back to that.
ETA said it was a mistake.
How did you feel
in the days following the attack?
Really bad. Really bad.
If you could talk to
a survivor of the Hipercor attack,
what would you say?
I would say that I am deeply sorry.
But I keep asking myself
if there is anything
that I could say to this person,
any empathy that I could show them,
that would actually do them... any good?
Right?
It's in the past.
Is the pain going to be any less?
They'll probably just tell me
I'm a hypocrite.
And I'll tell you something else.
If I was in their situation,
I'd probably say the same thing.
On December 11th, 1987,
ETA placed a car b*mb
at the residential barracks
of the police force in Zaragoza,
which caused 11 deaths,
six of them children.
This happened six months after Hipercor.
Mm-hmm.
You said the attack
on Hipercor was a mistake.
Was the attack in Zaragoza a mistake?
That's not the way I see it.
If we look at the newspapers,
and we look at the documents
from well before the attack,
and we focus on the statements
and announcements that ETA made,
it is repeated several times...
I don't remember the exact date,
but they stated
that, from such and such date,
not only will the police and military
continue to be targets
but also their barracks.
So therefore, they requested
that all the families be evacuated
from these residential barracks.
That was made public.
But the National Police ignored them.
In fact, they locked themselves
away in their bunkers.
And the ETA decided
to act in accordance with
their political strategy and analysis,
in which they had publicly declared,
uh, that residential barracks
would become targets.
So, there were consequences,
which were determined by ETA.
DECEMBER 11TH
Do you find any fault with the
attack on the barracks in Zaragoza?
The fault I find with it is
that the victims,
uh, were obviously women and...
and, well, it... was
the children more than anything.
That was the...
the unintended, irreversible,
and tragic result,
the dire consequence of that attack.
A... And obviously I feel deeply sorry
for those victims who, themselves, had
nothing to do with...
what it was
that the police barracks represented.
But if you put a car b*mb
beside the residential barracks, at night,
when you know
that there are people inside,
that they'll be sleeping,
that the families
of the officers will be there, too,
sleeping with them,
children,
husbands, wives,
you know what's going to happen.
I don't know how the group decided on
that course of action.
I don't know the individuals
who carried out the attack.
But
they would have been aware
of the families.
Or maybe not.
How could they not be aware
of what might happen?
I can't know what they were thinking,
the cell who carried that out.
I can't tell you
what was going on in their heads.
What did you think when you saw
the devastation caused by that attack?
It was painful.
It was painful
and shouldn't have happened.
But,
with this attack in Zaragoza,
to say ETA had warned
that the families should be evacuated
from the barracks and that only officers
should be sleeping there overnight,
and that because they didn't evacuate,
well, then that's just what happened,
and in the case of Hipercor,
the fact that the police didn't evacuate
the parking lot also meant,
"Well, if they didn't evacuate,
what could we have done?"
Isn't that cynical?
You're taking things out of context
and applying your own values
to the situation.
To me,
it's very clear
what happened at Hipercor was a mistake,
and that's it.
You'll say, "Yes, but the consequences..."
Okay, they were
terrible and irreversible consequences.
When you asked me
about the barracks in Zaragoza,
I gave you context.
And the consequences were
very serious and painful.
So there's nothing cynical about that.
I admit that I feel deep sorrow
about the fact that those victims
were children.
What if they had been police officers?
The police force knew their role.
Wasn't it to save the homeland?
"Everything for the homeland,"
isn't that what they say?
So when they walk into those barracks,
especially close to the Basque Country,
where they were sending groups
like the GAR, Rapid Action Groups,
to oppress the Basque people...
It's their job. You told me...
Excuse me, actually, I told you,
re... regarding the members of ETA
and whatever happens to them,
whether it's oppression,
death, or... or if they died
during an attack,
they're not victims.
Absolutely not.
They're volunteers.
And it's the same
for the police force. They're volunteers.
Or maybe not volunteers,
but they chose their jobs.
You said earlier that it's reprehensible
to distinguish between victims.
- Yes.
- Isn't that what you're doing?
- No. Absolutely not. No. Absolutely not.
- Isn't this just as reprehensible as that?
- You're...
- I'm not distinguishing victims.
- Come on!
- In any way, whatsoever.
You're saying certain victims, well,
if they're police officers
or part of the National Police
or the military then...
At that moment, they were targets.
It has nothing to do with distinguishing.
I'm not distinguishing.
I'm not distinguishing at all.
You're saying you feel very sorry
if the victims are kids,
but if they're officers,
then they're the defenders of the country
and so they can die for it.
Yes, but I'm not distinguishing at all.
To me...
That is distinguishing, Mr. Urrutikoetxea.
I don't think it is.
The Spanish authorities, as you well know,
want you to be extradited
to be tried for this case,
and the French authorities seem to agree.
You're accused of being
a member of ETA's leadership at that time
and thus complicit in the attack.
Mr. Urrutikoetxea did you give the order
for the attack in Zaragoza?
First, absolutely not.
Second, I wasn't part of ETA's leadership.
There are police reports
showing that you were a member
of the leadership of ETA at the time,
even statements from companions
like Elena Beloki,
who in her statement refers to you
as part of ETA's leadership
in that year, in '87.
That's one of the reasons
why police put together that report.
Her statement doesn't say that.
What does it say?
It says it was possible,
but it isn't a confirmation.
Just like everyone else who accuses me,
be it Soares Gamboa or others.
They all say the same thing.
There's no proof whatsoever
of any kind, anywhere.
MAY 29TH
In 1991, ETA carried out
another attack
on the residential barracks
of the police, this time in Vic,
causing ten deaths,
half of which were children.
The people who carried out this attack,
the t*rrorists who detonated the car b*mb,
they pushed it down a ramp
at the barracks in Vic,
and at the end of the ramp
children could be seen
playing in the courtyard.
Despite this, they decided to push
the rigged car down the ramp.
I don't know exactly.
If you say that's what happened,
it... it must be what happened.
- I just don't know.
- That's what witnesses said.
But, yes, that probably happened.
If you say so.
How do you feel about that decision?
If the people who placed the b*mb saw
that there were kids,
I think those people were in the wrong.
By people, in this case,
I mean those
who carried out the operation.
I'm comparing
this attack with Zaragoza,
where a car b*mb was set off
during the night.
You said that because it was night, they
couldn't assess the consequences properly.
- The consequences.
- I disagreed.
But in this case, it was daytime.
The consequences were much clearer.
We talked about this.
Jos Antonio Urrutikoetxea,
alias Josu Ternera,
was arrested by intelligence services
while he was on his motorcycle.
Josu Ternera is considered to be
ETA's number one.
He was involved in the death
of Admiral Carrero Blanco
and had narrowly evaded French police
in Saint-Pe-sur-Nivelle.
After your arrest in 1989,
you spent eleven years in prison.
First you were incarcerated in France.
What were you charged with?
I was arrested in '89 in Bayonne
and charged with
belonging to a criminal organization,
with the intent to commit
acts of terrorism, or something like that.
It might not be that exact translation,
but, anyway, that's
the alleged crime I was tried for.
French authorities delivered
Josu Ternera, a top-member of ETA,
to Spanish police
at the border crossing near La Junquera.
He is suspected
of leading ETA's international arm
and of being involved in the extortion
of Basque business owners.
After serving seven years
of your sentence in France,
in 1996, you were extradited to Spain.
You were transferred
to the AlcalMeco prison,
where you spent another four years,
this time in preventive detention,
while you were being investigated
for other crimes.
That same year, ETA kidnapped
prison officer Ortega Lara.
I'd like to know
what your relationship was
with the correctional officers
when you were incarcerated at AlcalMeco,
while Ortega Lara was in captivity.
In general,
their attitude was extremely cold.
Excuse me, and very contemptuous.
Even when all the stuff that happened
with Ortega Lara was over,
they still had the same attitude.
That's just what they were like.
To them, we were the enemy.
- ETA also saw officers as the enemy.
- Yes, at that time. That's true.
- The facts speak for themselves.
- Yeah.
Ortega Lara was kidnapped
and held c*ptive for 532 days
inside a tiny pit,
under inhumane conditions.
JULY 1SWhat did you think
when you saw that iconic image
from Ortega Lara's release,
after a kidnapping
which must've been so terrifying?
What do I think?
I think it must have been
very hard for that person.
Because living in isolation,
like some of my male
and female companions,
not for 539 days,
but for twenty years or more, well...
I... I can imagine it must be very tough
living in that type of isolation.
Would Ortega Lara have died
if he hadn't been found?
I don't know.
Considering ETA's demand
for prisoners to be transferred closer...
I don't know.
There were demands. There are facts...
From my point of view, it's possible.
It's possible.
I think ETA's objective in that situation,
like you just said, was to exchange him
for other prisoners.
That might have been the angle,
or any steps towards that outcome.
Then they might have freed him.
Well, we therefore think
that the police
as well as many politicians
will praise the use of repression.
We'd like to give them some advice.
Be careful about
getting drunk off repression
because there's the inevitable hangover.
A few days after Ortega Lara's release,
and only days after the statement
from a spokesperson for Herri Batasuna,
ETA kidnapped
the People's Party representative
for the town of Ermua,
Miguel ngel Blanco.
Was that a response?
That's your interpretation.
What's yours?
A response?
I don't think so, no. I don't know.
I don't know what went through the minds
of the people who decided
to kidnap Miguel ngel Blanco.
It doesn't seem
like a logical response, but anyway...
Was this payback from ETA?
I don't think so.
I don't think so,
because as far as I know...
In my experience,
it's always seemed as if
the pursuit of retaliation or revenge is
just not a sentiment...
uh, which helps us to advance our project
or our goal
of the reconstruction of Euskal Herria.
Not in any way, shape, or form.
Uh, plus, revenge and hatred blind you
and don't allow you
to analyze things properly.
When you heard about the kidnapping,
what did you think?
Well, I thought...
I... I didn't really understand it,
honestly. I don't really understand...
uh, what the objective
of that operation was.
That's it. I... I had no information,
so I didn't understand.
JULY 11TH
ETA KIDNAPS A TOWN COUNCILOR
AND THREATENS TO m*rder HIM TOMORROW
DEADLINE SET AT 4:00 P.M.
ETA gave the government
48 hours to move
imprisoned ETA members closer to Euskadi.
Or else they would execute
Miguel ngel Blanco.
You were incarcerated at the time.
How did that affect you?
I'll say it again.
With the information I had,
uh, which was extremely limited,
my interpretation is...
I don't know. I didn't see the point
in what they did, and I can't explain it.
During those 48 hours,
did you voice disagreement with ETA?
It's not about making it public.
Why would I do that?
The fact that I disagreed with them...
and any comments I might have shared,
or... or my point of view...
Those are things that I would convey
to whomever I needed to.
Did you communicate those things?
I did, of course.
JULY 12TH
During those days,
not only in the rest of Spain
but also in the Basque Country,
hundreds of thousands of people went out
onto the streets to demand
that ETA not k*ll Miguel ngel Blanco.
Why didn't ETA listen to them?
I think they ignored
what the people were saying,
or they ignored what a segment
of the population was saying.
When you don't listen to people,
it's because you don't hear them,
or you don't want to.
Forty-eight hours passed.
It was 4:00 p.m on that Saturday,
and ETA carried out their threat
and m*rder*d Miguel ngel Blanco.
We've received confirmation...
JULY 13TH
...that Miguel ngel has been m*rder*d.
Murderers!
They're not Basques!
They're murderers!
They're not Basques! They're murderers!
ETA, sh**t me in the head!
ETA, sh**t me in the head!
ETA, sh**t me in the head!
When you saw that crowd
of Basque people shouting,
"They're not Basques. They're murderers!"
"ETA, sh**t me in the head!"
what did you think?
Well, I think that it's obvious
that there's a segment
of the population, men and women
of the Basque Country,
who did not agree with us.
Instead, they dissented.
That's what I think.
Even some prior supporters dissented.
I... I don't know who was there.
But a lot of people turned out
to express their disagreement,
people who, as you said,
may have previously supported us.
Of course.
Did you know
Francisco Javier Garca Gaztelu?
- Txapote.
- No.
- The perpetrator of the m*rder.
- No. No.
What would you have said
if you had been able to talk to him
during the 48 hours
of Miguel ngel Blanco's captivity?
I'd have said
that I didn't think the operation, um...
should have taken place.
Why not?
Because...
I think that it was...
a mistake,
politically and morally,
with irreversible consequences,
and which was not
helpful in any way at all...
uh, strategically.
Personally...
I believe the organization,
ETA, was probably working on
bridge-building at the time,
ways to find a solution
to the conflict through negotiation.
Did you consider leaving ETA?
Why?
Because I disagreed with them?
No.
Today, the Basque Country saw
something unprecedented
yet entirely legal.
Josu Ternera, ETA's former leader,
entered the Parliament
to register as a member of parliament.
Josu Ternera,
one of ETA's heavyweights behind bars,
returned to prison
after he had been freed for a few hours.
While you were in prison in 1998,
you were elected to the Basque Parliament
as a member
of the Euskal Herritarrok party,
which was another name used by Batasuna.
But you weren't able to attend
Parliament on a regular basis
until your release
from prison in the year 2000.
Josu Ternera was released today.
The Supreme Court ruled
that in France he was already tried
and sentenced to ten years in prison
for the same crime.
Now that I am free,
I intend to participate
in an ongoing... project in Euskal Herria,
which is that of building Euskal Herria.
It was startling to see
you in the Basque Parliament.
What were you thinking about
on that day that you took a seat
as a representative of the Basque people?
Nothing in particular.
Just, well, the people.
By "the people" I mean
the people in my constituency, obviously.
They had elected me.
And it was my responsibility to do my job
as a representative
of that segment of the population.
It was my duty and responsibility.
...information...
In the year 2000,
the same year you became
a member of Parliament,
ETA intensified their operations
and k*lled 23 people.
It had been 8 years since ETA had caused
that many deaths in one year,
and they would never again k*ll so many
in such a short time.
Scream.
As long as you scream, you're not k*lling!
Among those who were m*rder*d were
politicians, journalists, and businessmen
who had refused to pay
the money that ETA demanded.
The so-called "revolutionary tax."
k*lling people who don't pay you,
isn't that something the Mafia does?
That's not the point.
Those deaths were avoidable.
Those people were involved
in the process, but, as you said,
they accepted the consequences.
And, furthermore, they said so
publicly and openly.
I'll say it again. I think that...
it's sad, but those were
the consequences of the conflict.
Did you support
this type of revolutionary tax?
The revolutionary tax was necessary
because it was needed
to continue the struggle
of the pro-independence movement.
After the 23 murders in the year 2000,
there were Basque elections in 2001,
and Euskal Herritarrok
again put you forward as a candidate.
The party ended up losing seats,
dropping from 14 to 7.
And their percentage of the vote went down
almost nine points.
I have one question.
I want to know if you chose
to participate in the political process
to end violence
for ethical or for strategic reasons.
Both.
First, I realized,
well, actually I'd realized before,
that we were in the middle
of an oppressive spiral
and the ethical aspects
were not being considered,
or minimally at best,
and this had consequences.
The insensitivity and disregard,
the lack of empathy from both sides,
that cut both ways, and therefore it was
an important factor to consider.
The other factor was
that, in order to take...
steps towards
a resolution of the conflict...
Those steps... simply couldn't be taken
by using a strategy
which involved violent confrontation.
It would have been a total contradiction.
So on the one hand,
we had ethical concerns,
or, rather, a lack of ethical behavior
in terms of the confrontation.
And on the other hand,
there was a need to change our strategy.
In 2002, the Supreme Court summoned you
to make a statement during the proceedings
for the attack on the police barracks
in Zaragoza in 1987.
You did not attend.
You fled from Spain
and went back into hiding.
While you were in hiding,
you participated in the negotiations
between ETA and the Spanish government
that started in June in 2005.
You met for the first time
with the president
of the Socialist Party in Euskadi,
Jess Eguiguren.
Is it true that one of the first things
you said to Eguiguren was
"I'm here to end the violence"?
That's one of the things
I said to him, among others.
I told him,
"You and I should do our utmost
to overcome this phase of violence."
I said we had to find a way out,
that we couldn't leave this conflict
for future generations to deal with
and we needed to do
everything in our power
to put an end to that phase.
You and Jess Eguiguren met again
in Oslo, in November 2005.
You left Oslo having made the commitment
that there would be a ceasefire
and that ETA would communicate
this decision publicly.
In September of 2006,
you met again in Switzerland.
Mm-hmm.
And on that occasion,
in addition to Eguiguren and yourself,
you were accompanied
by another representative from ETA,
whose name is
Xabier Lpez Pea, AKA Thierry.
Was Thierry ETA's leader at that time?
ETA was never...
Well, it's always been lead more
by groups and collectives, not by leaders.
- Not by one sole leader.
- No. There wasn't just one leader.
But, was Thierry part
of the collective leadership of ETA?
Yes, supposedly, that's why he negotiated.
There was no reason to doubt
that he came on behalf of the leadership.
Obviously, by that
I mean the leadership of ETA.
Why did Thierry go to that negotiation,
which took place in Montreux?
I think that, at the time,
that ETA leadership wasn't...
uh, in the right mindset
to enter negotiations.
Rather they were
in the mindset of continuing
wi... with the political-military conflict,
with the armed violence.
They were of the opinion
that the outcomes of the negotiations
would not be sufficient.
I believed otherwise.
And I realized, at the time,
uh, that ETA's leadership didn't agree
with what I thought
and that their sights were set
on something else.
So, I had two options.
One, I continued being a member,
which meant I'd have to comply.
Or, two, I could leave.
And that's what I did.
And you cut all ties?
Absolutely.
You no longer have contact
with Eguiguren or...?
With no one.
I decided to leave,
to go to a place I knew.
The Pyrenees?
To the Pyrenees,
to the district of Arige.
It's true that ETA opened up
an internal debate between 2007 and 2011
in order to decide
which direction they were going.
- Yes.
- Basically ETA's path forward.
Even though you weren't
in the organization, did you take part
in that internal debate?
No. Absolutely not.
Over the past two decades,
ETA's close circles, and ETA itself,
have been under extreme pressure
from the Spanish police and the military,
and also from court rulings.
ETA's leadership fronts were dropping,
one after the other.
Long live ETA!
Long live a free Euskal Herria!
To what extent do you believe
that police pressure influenced ETA
to the point that they decided
to end the violence indefinitely?
Well, that's part
of taking control of the story,
what they call
"controlling the narrative."
I mean the government was selling
an image of organization in disarray.
It's the same in w*r.
It's psychological warfare.
You have to convince the citizens.
They need to see
the image of a defeated enemy
in order to lose faith.
Psychological warfare aside,
don't you think that the pressure
on ETA and their network cornered them?
I think...
I... I don't think that was the issue.
Having two governments on your back
and, on top of that, all the resources
that they have available...
Well, obviously, that complicates things
for any organization or any movement.
Especially for ETA, being in Europe,
between both the Spanish
and French governments.
And then on the other hand,
there's the fact that the organization
had always listened to what the people...
were saying.
The people's point of view had shifted.
The voice of the public was
no longer in accordance with
the political-military strategy
that ETA had been using.
ETA has decided to permanently disarm.
ETA calls upon
the governments of Spain and France
to open a direct line of dialogue
in order to put an end
to the consequences of the conflict
and to overcome armed confrontation.
ETA has announced
that it will permanently disarm.
It is the clearest step towards peace
the t*rror1st organization has ever taken.
Today we should celebrate
this great victory of democracy.
How did you feel
about that final statement from ETA,
declaring the definitive end
to the violence?
Was it a victory or a failure?
- Not victory or failure.
- What was it?
I saw it as a necessary step,
when faced with the reality
of Euskal Herria at the time.
Did the announcement come too late?
Not the announcement, no,
but the decision, itself, came too late.
By that decision I mean...
uh, the decision to...
to put an end to
violent armed conflict, definitively.
When do you think
the statement should've been made?
In 2005.
All right. So, then let's fast-forward
to May of 2018,
when you were the one to read out
that last statement issued by ETA.
"ETA,
the Basque socialist revolutionary
organization for national liberation
hereby informs the Basque people
that its journey has ended."
"As a consequence of this decision,
ETA has completely dismantled
all of its structures."
"ETA was born from the people, and now
it dissolves back into the people."
"Long live a free Euskal Herria."
- You were no longer part of ETA.
- No.
Then why did you read
the final statement, ETA's last words?
I read that statement because
I had a long history as an ETA member
and as a member
of the pro-independence left.
That meant that,
whether we wanted to or not,
uh, we had to come out,
how do you say... unmasked.
Unmasked.
That also came
with legal consequences for me.
Obviously.
Why?
Because I'm reading
a statement from a t*rror1st organization.
And who do you suppose does that?
A member of a t*rror1st organization.
But at that time, I wasn't.
It wasn't normal.
It wasn't.
But that was the truth.
This year, you'll be turning 72.
You've dealt with death
and near-death experiences for decades.
Do you fear your own death?
Not at all. That's life.
Do you think that when the time comes
for you to face death,
that you'll have any regrets
when you look back on your choices?
Regrets? I think that
like any other person,
I'd probably regret some things.
For example, I would...
regret
uh, not having... not having done more
than I did at the time
in order to...
...um,
to end the...
the crazy cycle,
the spiral of violence, much sooner.
I'd regret that because I hadn't...
I... I mean, maybe I could have done more
to help stop it sooner.
In this interview,
you revealed something we didn't know.
You shared several things,
but one specifically that we didn't know
was that you had been involved
in the m*rder
of the mayor of Galdakao in 1976.
It's a fact we were not aware of,
and, actually,
you were never tried for it.
Do you feel
equally responsible for that death?
Obviously, I do. Yes.
I take responsibility
as much it relates to me,
as a member of ETA at that time.
Are you saying that
you feel equally responsible
for the deaths caused by ETA too.
I take responsibility for what I did.
Let's be clear. My actions, what I did.
I take responsibility for what I did
as a member of the organization.
Please, don't put words in my mouth.
I would like to say
the name of that mayor,
Vctor Legorburu,
and also
the person who was escorting him,
a local police officer
named Francisco Ruiz Snchez.
He was shot many times,
and he has also written
a book which details his...
I know.
...details his experience,
which, of course, was very traumatic.
The aftermath was also traumatic.
He faced stigmatization
from his neighbors.
He described that they would cross
to the other side of the street
whenever they saw him.
He wrote that it seemed almost as if
they disapproved of the very fact
that he survived the attack at all.
If any members of Legorburu's family
are watching this interview,
what would you say to them?
I'd say what I've said before.
I extend my deepest sympathies.
And to Mr. Francisco Ruiz Snchez?
- Who was wounded.
- The...? Yes.
I want to say something.
k*lling isn't pleasurable for anyone.
Anyone.
Obviously, not for the person
who was k*lled or for their family.
But k*lling isn't pleasurable
for the k*ller either.
It is
and will always be
a burden
which that person, man or woman,
will carry to the end of their days.
Do you carry that?
Obviously. And I'll say it
for the third time.
I take responsibility for what I did.
Obviously, I carry that burden.
How does that feel?
Well,
it's like a backpack.
It's full of things
related to what you've done in life.
Is it heavy?
Very heavy.
Mr. Urrutikoetxea,
what has been the point of all this?
Look.
If the question you're asking...
is what is the point
of the things that I've done in my life...
I'd say that for fifty years...
I've been involved
in the struggle of the Basque people.
I made some good choices, many,
and some mistakes.
And...
it would be disingenuous for any person,
having fought for fifty years,
to say that their life has been pointless.
That would be monstrous.
I was involved
in accordance with my beliefs,
from the beginning.
And I've tried to live my life
as a citizen
the way I thought best,
to the very end.
That's it.
I wasn't expecting this, my boy.
This subject...
I learned something
that I couldn't have imagined.
I never thought
Josu Ternera could have been involved
in that m*rder, Jordi.
I never thought that.
That's why there are still
330 unsolved cases,
and we don't know
who was behind the attacks.
And we'd like to know
who the murderers are.
So, today I was really surprised
by the interview that you did with this...
I was going to say "m*rder*r."
You know, I would've appreciated it
and it would still be nice
if others also came forward
and made statements.
That would be a way to find closure,
to live in peace
and finally forget all this.
Regarding the attack
in which you were injured,
Josu Urrutikoetxea said
he "extends his deepest sympathies."
I don't think he does.
I... don't think he does.
He could have said...
he could have said
that he regrets it.
He talks about this burden.
Okay, I'm sure he carries it on his back.
But he probably thinks
he was fighting for a good reason,
defending the Basque Country,
or for whatever reason.
For independence,
to build their own nation.
But he doesn't regret what he did.
If Josu Urrutikoetxea was in front of you,
what would you say?
I'd ask him to
apologize to me.
If he would ask for forgiveness
and admit to all his crimes...
I'm a man of peace.
All I want is peace
and to forget about all that hatred
and terror we experienced for 60 years.
And that,
I don't know if...
if we could end up shaking hands
and finally forget about all of this.
But I don't think that day will ever come.
After operating for nearly 60 years,
ETA disbanded in 2018.
The organization never achieved
any of the goals
upon which it was founded.
In 2021, the Basque
pro-independence left acknowledged
that the pain that ETA's victims suffered
"never should have happened."
As of the completion
of this documentary in September 2023,
166 ETA members remain incarcerated
in France and Spain.
In 2011, ETA announced
that it would permanently disarm,
and the organization has never committed
another act of terror.
ETA is the only t*rror1st organization
in Europe to have done so.
Francisco Ruiz is retired and lives
in a town in Ciudad Real, Spain.
Josu Urrutikoetxea is on parole
in southern France
and awaiting extradition to Spain.
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Face to Face with ETA: Conversations with a t*rror1st (2023)
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