01x06 - Waco Part 2

[bunniefuu]

[g*nf*re]

- In Waco, Texas, four law
enforcement agents are dead

and at least 12 injured

in a shootout
with a religious cult.

- Through
the beginning negotiations,

you could hear rounds
going off.

[g*nf*re]

- We wanted
to get the kids out of there.

- Cult leader David Koresh
raised hopes

that a peaceful end
might be on the horizon.

- He declared
that he had heard from God

that now is not
the time to surrender.

- It makes nobody's business
whether we have a g*n or not.

- This is every law
enforcement's worst nightmare.

[sirens wailing]

- The dangerous standoff
drags on.

- It was like a pressure,
like a balloon.

And every day, it gets
more and more dangerous.

- These are powerful signs
of the government

taking control
of the situation.

- There was one person

that could have
avoided this outcome...

- And that was David Koresh.

- If you're a true Christian
and you believe the truth

and you know the truth,
the truth will set you free.

- And the fire had started
to consume the building.

And I see a woman standing
on the second floor.

And then she jumped.

[dramatic music]

- In the FBI, we make
a lot of headlines.

♪

Drug busts,

mob stings,

t*rror1st takedowns.

- Get down! Get down!

- We understand why people
want to tell stories about us.

- Mark it.

- Freeze!
- FBI.

- FBI!
- Action!

- But they don't know
the half of it.

What really goes down,

we save that for each other

when we're talking
agent to agent.

♪

This is "FBI True."

- Cult leader David Koresh
raised hopes

that a peaceful end
might be on the horizon.

He promised to give up
if authorities would

allow a radio station
to play an audio cassette

in which he explained
his religious views.

- So here we are,
at this point.

You know, hostage negotiators
have spoke to Koresh.

There was a plan
for him to give up.

- I, David Koresh, agree, upon
the broadcasting of this tape,

to come out peacefully
with all the people.

- He doesn't.
He blatantly lies to us.

We now know that he's
untrustworthy and he's a liar.

- At this point
in the investigation,

what do we know now?

- Well, we know
we have a m*rder*r

who k*lled four federal agents
without remorse.

- We know we have
a child molester,

because we have a slew
of people coming out

and saying he's had sex
with 14- and 13-year-old girls,

and the kids are there,
in the compound with him.

- A lot of beliefs people have
may seem abnormal

or strange to other people.

That doesn't mean
that it's not right, though.

- He's demonstrated
horrific faith,

and he's not to be trusted.

We need to kick the can
down the road.

- The dangerous standoff
drags on.

Cult members remain sealed
inside the compound,

and no one knows
when or how this will all end.

[tense music]

♪

- So when we talk
about Koresh's wives

and his underage "wives"...

- How many wives do you have?
- One.

- One wife?
- One wife.

- Have you committed...
- I've always had...

have I committed adultery,
is what you're fixing to ask?

- Have you committed adultery?

- [laughs]
No, I don't commit adultery.

- What's your understanding
of that?

- There was only one that

he was legally married to,
and that was Rachel,

and she was 16 at the time
that they were married.

And the reason
why that was legal

is because her dad
signed a agreement

to allow her to marry him.

- And what is
your understanding

of some of his youngest
"brides," in his eyes?

- Bye.

- God was telling him
to marry them.

And then his belief system was
that if he had sex with them,

then that meant
they were married.

It's not like they had to have
some sort of formal ceremony.

♪

Raping these young girls,
that then made them his wife.

And that also included

any of the women
that joined the cult

who were already married
to other men.

They surrendered their wives
to Koresh.

And they not only
surrendered their wives,

but any children that they
already had with their wives

became Koresh's children.

So all children
were his children.

All women were his wives.

- And the youngest age
of one of his brides?

- Ten.
- Ten years old?

- Yeah.

♪

- Law-enforcement officers
described

the present situation
as static.

They say they want
to end this confrontation

without bloodshed,
and they are willing

to wait as long as it takes

as long as the delay does not
endanger anyone's life.

- So now we're at day 25.
- Right.

- Koresh has lied to us
over and over and over again.

What are you thinking?
Ten more days?

What's the passage of time feel
like for you at this point?

- Groundhog Day.

- It became almost,
you know, complacent.

Day after day, we'd ride
by the front of the compound,

and sometimes
Davidians would be waving at us

through the window.

- They knew
they were running the show,

it felt like, you know?

And it was like a pressure,
like a balloon.

And every day
this thing goes on,

the more pressure gets
in that balloon.

And it gets more
and more dangerous.

Koresh was always trying
to do little things

to show
that he was still in charge.

And he would do stuff.
Like, at 2:00 in the morning,

he would start with his guitar,
serenading us essentially.

- I'm sitting there
watching the compound,

and I see Koresh sitting up

on the second story
on a windowsill.

And he's playing
his electric guitar.

And he's intentionally
showing the wound to his wrist

and the wound to his side,

trying to compare himself
to Jesus Christ

and the crucifixion.

Then stops and eats
a little bit of ramen noodles

and drinks some Juicy Juice.

It's like,
"I can stay here forever.

This is my kingdom,
and I'm the king."

[rock music]

- What were some
of the distraction tactics?

With the music?

And what kind of sounds
is being thrown out

to put the pressure back
on them?

- I mean, they were playing
some pretty interesting songs,

like Nancy Sinatra.

[Nancy Sinatra's "These Boots
Are Made for Walking"]

- ♪ You keep playing

♪ Where you
shouldn't be playing ♪

♪

- And then, you know,
rabbits being slaughtered.

[foghorn blaring,
dolphin chittering]

I mean, that's always fun.

- Chanting monks.
- Chanting monks.

[chanting]

I mean, I don't know where
they came up with this stuff.

We're sitting back
in our position,

listening to it and going,
"OK, that would keep me awake."

- Who set up the speakers
for all this?

- We did. HRT did.
- Yeah, the HRT guys.

- So when you guys
are setting up the speakers,

what are you thinking
at this point?

- "Don't get shot."
[laughter]

- Oh, so you were having
to go right out front

and expose yourself?
- Yes.

- I'm thinking,
"Charlie, cover me

while we do this."
- Yeah.

[tense music]

- During the day,
there were military

and medical helicopter
flyovers

and tank maneuvers
on the compound grounds.

These are powerful signs
of the government

taking control
of the situation.

Federal agents want
David Koresh and his followers

to get the message.

- What else did we do
to apply some pressure?

- Power had been cut off.
- Yeah.

- How long
was the power cut off?

- Just almost the whole time.

- That's typical in barricaded
subject situations,

as you know.
- Yes.

- That's not an unusual tactic.

- We are trying
to reinforce to them

that we are in charge
of the situation,

that the compound is under

the complete control
of the government.

- Right,
they're gonna cut the power,

they're gonna cut the phones.
- Yeah.

- They're gonna cut lights.
- Make sure

they don't have gas.
- Right.

- And then on top of that,
they had no plumbing,

so they were living in
pretty primitive conditions.

And then you add
sleep deprivation to that,

and, you know, you're making it

a pretty miserable type
of environment

that hopefully,
they're gonna try to come out.

♪

- Were there other moments

where you felt like
there was hope?

- Well, there were a couple
of times that they decided

they needed to try to go up
and do a face-to-face,

with Koresh preferably,

but it ended up being
with Steve Schneider.

We developed an approach

to where we were going to try
to convince Steve Schneider

to break from Koresh.

- He is like the aide-de-camp
to David Koresh.

And David Koresh
had taken his wife,

impregnated her...
- Correct.

- And had a baby with her.
- Correct.

- So what possibly
could you say to Schneider

to have him break
from the bad messiah?

- Well, we knew that Koresh
had convinced the men

that they needed
to give up their wives

so that they could all
become his wives

and have his children.

And we knew
that Steve Schneider's wife

was one of those and that
she had had a baby by him.

- Huh.
- What is your name?

- My name is
Judy Schneider-Koresh,

and this is my daughter, Mynah.

- And so we decided
that our best shot at that

was to try
to go after Schneider

and really get him upset
about that aspect of it...

- And really appeal
to his emotional side

and to his side as a husband

and see if we could
get him really, really angry

to the point of where he would
break away from Koresh.

And so we went at him.

We told him, you know,
"How does it feel

"knowing that
the woman that you love

"and your wife
for several years

"is no longer available to you

"and really
is not your wife anymore

"and that he has taken her
as his wife?

"And in fact, how does it feel,
you living there,

"seeing that baby every day,

knowing that that baby
is his blood?"

- And we kept hammering him
with that,

and he got pretty upset,

because he knew what we were
saying was definitely something

that had been bothering him
for a long time.

- So man to man, you were able
to tickle that man gene

a little bit, like, "Yo,
brother, that's not normal."

- Correct.
And we tickled it pretty hard.

You know, he got upset,
and then a very quick,

complete reversal,
like he flipped a switch.

He went back
to being the Steve Schneider,

number two guy to David Koresh.

And when he flipped
that switch,

it told us
that we had wasted our time.

- Were there other moments
where you felt

like there was hope?

- He had told the attorneys
that he would surrender

once he had an opportunity
to prepare his manuscript

with his disclosing
of the Seven Seals

and prove
that he was the Lamb of God.

- All I care about
in our judgment is one thing:

do you want to know
the Seven Seals?

Do you want to know
where they are?

- But we were
somewhat skeptical.

That was kind of the straw
that broke the camel's back,

because from then on,
it was a trust issue.

- When did you guys
start hearing

that we were going
to arrest and rescue?

- I was on one
of those 24-hour off.

- Yeah.
- And so

I was at the hotel room,

and another operator came
and said,

"Hey, we're doing it
in the morning at 0600."

And I'm like,
"Are you serious?"

- We could rescue the kids,
get them out,

put Koresh where he belonged,
in prison,

and do
what we came there to do.

- Yeah,
and bring those to justice

who had k*lled four A*F agents.
- Exactly.

- Start the process.

- Ultimately, that was

what the attorney general
approved.

♪

- And take me from there,
what you guys do.

- It would have been probably,

you know,


And basically, the negotiators
had announced to the Davidians

that, "Look, there's gonna be
a gas insertion."

- "You're gonna want
to come out of there

"because it's gonna
get very uncomfortable.

"It's not gonna be good
for the children

to be exposed
to that environment."

And so 6:00 a.m. rolled around,

and we all began the procession

in the Bradleys
and the M-88 tanks.

- And the tanks,
which had been configured

so that they could crush
a hole in the exterior wall

and then spray gas
into the compound.

- Sure enough, we literally
hadn't crossed the threshold,

and an operator from one
of the sn*per positions

said "compromise."

And "compromise" means
that the Davidians

were in the tower
with long weapons,

and they were
opening fire on us.

[g*nf*re]

Now we're under fire,
and that meant, you know,

our "rules of engagement"
were gonna accelerate.

Basically, any time
a sn*per called out and said,

"There's a Davidian in this
window with a long weapon,"

then I would fire gas rounds
into that window

to try to run him out of there.

- Sorry, in the sn*per
positions, you guys are...

- We were covering,

but we couldn't identify
targets and be certain

that they didn't have a child
underneath them as cover

or some other human being
that was innocent.

We wanted to be able
to hit the target.

So we couldn't fire.
We wouldn't fire.

We didn't fire
even though we received g*nf*re

the entire morning
all around us.

- The negotiators is
reaching out to the Davidians,

saying, you know,
"Please come out"...

- Thinking that maybe
they'll start to file out

through the doors
and some of the openings

made by the tanks.

But there's nothing,
no response.

Nobody's coming out. Nothing.

- Charlie,
what's happening at this point?

We've moved
the Bradleys forward.

We're pumping gas in.

- The gas is ineffective.

Windy day.
Place was a barn.

Windows open.
Gas was just blowing.

The wind was blowing it
right out the windows.

They had masks.
I don't even know

if they needed them,
to be honest with you.

It wasn't affecting them.
They were still sh**ting at us.

They were not responding
the way we had hoped

they would respond
by letting the kids out.

- Then I see on the red and
white corner, a wisp of smoke.

Another operator calls out
that he sees a wisp of smoke.

I can't see that corner.
- Yeah.

- He can't see mine.
The compound is too big.

So therefore, I know,
OK, there's got to be

two "wisps of smoke."
- Yeah.

- That means
two fires have been set.

And I'm like, they're
starting fires in there.

♪

- I had a pretty
unique perspective

because I was in an angle

where I could see
most of the structure.

And I start seeing puffs
of smoke, puffs of smoke,

puffs of smoke
in three different places

simultaneously
along the building.

And the next thing you know,
with that wind...

- We can see flames
from two miles away.

Now the flames...
oh, my goodness.

- And we wanted to get out.

We said, "We've got
to go get those kids."

And we started to,
but we could feel the rounds

impacting the sandbags
and hear them going off.

We knew it was a death sentence
to do that.

[g*nf*re]

[sirens wailing]

- And the fire has started
to consume the building,

and I see a woman standing
on the second floor.

And then she jumps.

And then she turns around
and walks back in

to the first floor of the
compound, back into the flames.

I climb back into the back
of the Bradley.

I tell the guy who's driving,
I said, "Let's go over there.

"I'm gonna see if I can
get in there and get her.

And maybe
she's with the children."

And I find her laying on
the concrete floor facedown.

And I shake her
and identify myself.

And I said, "Listen,
where are the children?"

And she just was nonresponsive.

And I grab her, and I say,

"Look, if we don't get out of
here, we're gonna die as well."

I'm having to drag her
over the burning debris,

back out
to the back of the Bradley,

and lay her on the back.

I'm still asking her,
"Where are the children?"

She never does respond.

- I was pissed 'cause I'm like,
well, those kids aren't out.

I'm praying now
that there's a bunker

or a tunnel or someplace safe.

- As many as 86 people,
including 17 children,

are thought to have died

in yesterday's inferno
outside Waco.

Today, investigators
will search the ruins

of the cult compound
for remains of the victims.

- And after the fires
had kind of turned

to just, you know,
smoldering embers,

I got tasked
with being the first

to go into that
first-level concrete bunker.

That was hell on Earth,

a hell created by David Koresh.

And then, in a pile,
you see a...

you know,
sort of bone fragment or skull.

It was like 40 children
and, you know, their mothers.

- It looked like
a lot of the children

had died
in their mother's arms.

The forensics afterwards,
we were told

that some of the children had
been k*lled by their mothers

to escape the hell
of dying in a fire like that.

All we cared about
were those kids.

Once we knew they weren't
coming out and they were dead,

we were crushed.

- This tragedy that's
beyond even articulation

is solely
because of David Koresh.

That's it.

- The guy didn't want
to come out

because he was a pedophile.

He had sexually assaulted
underage girls...


had children with them.

And every child of his
was a living, breathing,

walking piece of evidence
against him in court.

And he would have gone to jail
for a very long time

for child molestation,
and he knew that.

- The record of the Waco
incident documents mistakes.

What the record from Waco
does not evidence, however,

is any improper motive
or intent

on the part
of law enforcement.

David Koresh and the Davidians
set fire to themselves

and committed suicide.

The government did not do that.

[somber music]

♪

- How does this case rank
in your career,

and what are some
of the thoughts you have?

- I had a long career,


I enjoyed pretty much
every minute of it.

This was one of the most
distasteful aspects, of course.

And the reason
it still sticks in my throat

is the kids

who had no choice
in the matter

and were essentially m*rder*d
by their biological father.

And the four A*F agents...

Nobody was really
held accountable

for their deaths,
their murders.

I've not spoken about this
in over 30 years almost.

It just breaks my heart,
you know?

- Yeah, I agree.
- Anyway...

- I think there were definitely

some lessons learned
by the FBI.

And one of the big ones was
to have a better relationship

between the tactical side of
the house and the negotiators.

And I do think
that was accomplished.

Something that I think
was not accomplished

was how to deal with a cult.

- "Thou shall break them
with a rod of iron.

Thou shall dash them in pieces
like a potter's vessel."

The guy is tough.

He's got more than g*ns.
He's got God.

- The bottom line is,
there was one person

that could have changed
the outcome of it

but chose not to do so,

and that was David Koresh.

And until people stop
following false prophets,

this will happen again.

[dramatic music]

♪