07x04 - Evil Never Dies

[bunniefuu]

Narrator:
a million-dollar mansion
on the coast of florida

Is rumored to house
a terrifying ghost.

[ Screams ]

It felt like looking into
the face of sheer evil.

Narrator: alive, he committed
unspeakable atrocities.

Someone died
from a hanging right there.

Narrator: dead, he continues
his reign of terror.

Jennifer: you didn't want
to turn your back.

You didn't want
to close your eyes

For fear of what might happen
if you did.

I was terrified.

I was afraid for my children.

I was afraid for myself.

Whatever was there was after me.

[ Lauren screams ]

Narrator: will the family
get out before it's too late?

[ Screams ]

In america,
there is real evil.

It lurks in the darkest shadows
and in our most ordinary towns.

Between the world we see
and the things we fear,

There are doors.

When they are opened,

Nightmares become reality.

-- Captions by vitac --
www.vitac.com

Captions paid for by
discovery communications

Among the waterways and marshes
of the escambia bay

In pensacola, florida,

Stands a majestic,
million-dollar mansion.

In the summer of 2009,

Jennifer welburn
and her two teenage daughters,

Lauren and candice,

Bask in the beauty
of their new home.

Before we moved to florida,
it was just the girls and i.

I was a single mom
trying to raise them,

Put them both through school,

Take care of all of their
daily needs all by myself.

Lauren: I was like, "wow.
This is really my house."

I was like, "I'm dreaming.

Somebody smack me
and wake me up." [ Chuckles ]

[ Birds chirping ]

Hey, jenn,
you about ready to go?

I was until
I came out here.

[ Sighs ]

Pretty spectacular,
isn't it?

Mm.

Narrator:
a few months earlier,

Jennifer and her
high-school sweetheart jamie

Reconnected and got engaged.

Together, they moved into
their dream house.

Jamie: I found this beautiful
home close to the water.

It was the perfect family house,

Because there was plenty of room
for the kids.

So, lauren, how many times
that guy call you today?

When I first met jamie,
I absolutely loved him.

Twice.

No, it was three times.

Like mother, like daughter --
heartbreaker.

Lauren:
he was really sweet, and you
could tell he made mom happy.

This is a guy
that I can look up to as a dad.

Jennifer:
I figured that we would
live there happily ever after,

But that's not how
it turned out.

Narrator:
it turns out the beauty of the
house and the surrounding land

Mask a violent history.

Pensacola, florida, is one of
the oldest european settlements

In north america.

By the mid 1800s,
the native population

Had been completely overrun
by new landowners.

Cotton plantations flourished

And sl*ves accounted
for nearly half

Of florida's
growing population.

Jennifer:
you can imagine escambia bay,

Being the waterway
right on the property,

It was definitely used
in sl*ve trading.

Narrator:
today, the horrors of the past
are buried deep but not dead.

Someone has never been able to
let go of the land or the house.

Jennifer: two weeks
after moving into the house

Was when I actually noticed

The first signs
of something strange going on.

I went upstairs and noticed

That the pictures were hanging
upside down on the wall,

As if that's the way
we had placed them.

Initially, I thought

That the girls might be
playing a prank on me.

Lauren?

So I walked into
my daughter's room...

Lauren?

...and her windows
were wide open...

Candice?

...the blinds were pulled up...

So, you know
the air condition is on.

Why are all the windows
in lauren's room open?

She hasn't even been here
all day.

I didn't open them.

Well -- well,
somebody opened them.

It wasn't me.

So I suppose you didn't

Flip the picture in the hallway,
either, huh?

Mom, what are you
talking about?

Oh, forget it.

Just please keep
the windows closed, okay?

Okay.

I thought it was really weird,

But I decided not to pay
too much attention to it,

And I put it to the side
and tried not to think about it.

Narrator:
over the following months,

Jennifer isn't the only one
who senses something strange

In the new house.

A few weeks after moving in,

Lauren and candice
enjoy girl time at home

While their mom and jamie
are out.

The first time
something happened,

Candice and I were alone
in the house.

[ Thudding ]

What was that?

I don't know.

You stay here.
I'll go check it out.

And we kept hearing
this noise upstairs.

Sounded like somebody
was walking around.

[ Thudding continues ]

I went into my mom's room,
where the noise was coming from.

[ Gasps ]

I told you
to stay downstairs.

What was it?

I don't know.

There was nobody up there,

So we just kind of swept it
under the rug

And just assumed
that it was the house.

Probably nothing.
Come on.

Narrator: a few nights later,
jennifer is alone in the kitchen

When she senses
a change in the air,

As if someone were watching her.

[ Screams ]

Narrator: for the past month,

Jennifer welburn
and her daughters have had

The distinct feeling
that they are not alone

In their charming escambia bay,
florida, mansion.

Lauren:
I would walk around the house.

I felt constantly
like I was being watched,

But I could never pinpoint
what exactly it was.

It was just
a really eerie feeling.

My grandfather
from before I was even born

Had shared ghost stories
that just got passed down,

But I never really believed in
any of it myself.

You have to see it
to believe it.

Narrator: but not too long
after moving in,

Jennifer has a terrifying
encounter she can't explain.

[ Screams ]

It felt like looking into
the face of just sheer evil.

I heard a blood-curdling scream,
so I immediately ran down,

Thinking that something very bad
had happened.

What's wrong?!

There was someone
in the window!

There's someone out there
watching me!

When we went outside...

...and there was
nothing there --

No one, no sign of anyone.

I just didn't see nothing.

Well, whoever it was,
they're gone now.

Did you get
a good look at him?

No, but there was
someone there.

It was a man. He was --

He was looking
right at me.

Narrator:
but jamie doesn't believe her.

It was probably just kids.

You probably scared them
just as much as they scared you.

Somebody was there.

Somebody was there!

I think maybe the house is...
Haunted or something.

Haunted house?

[ Chuckling ]
you've been watching
way too much television.

You know that stuff
doesn't even exist.

Finally, I told her,

"Let's just, you know,
let it go,

"And we'll keep
an eye on things,

"Make sure everything's
gonna be fine.

No problem."

Jennifer: he didn't feel
the house was haunted.

He thought that I was crazy.

There's no way to explain
what's happening,

So he just didn't
want to hear any of it.

Come on. Let's just go on back
in the house, okay?

Come on back in.

I was really at battle
with myself

Because on one hand,
I knew what I had seen,

I knew what I had experienced...

Come on.

...and on the other hand,
I really didn't believe it.

Everything's all right.

I just could not believe

That I had a ghost in my house
that was haunting it.

Narrator: at first, jennifer
keeps the unexpected intruder

A secret from her daughters.

I was worried because I had
physically experienced something

And seen something
that no one else had.

Narrator:
but she finally decides
to bring it out in the open.

[ Sighs ]

I sat down with the two girls
and explained to them

A little bit about
what I thought and what I felt,

And sure enough,
they were experiencing

The same types of events
and emotions that I was.

I finally felt like,
"okay, I'm not going crazy.

Finally, someone else
can see this, too."

Lauren: knowing that mom
was going through the same thing

Definitely made me scared.

When you're the only one
feeling it,

You're kind of like,
"well, maybe it's nothing,"

Just kind of brush it
under the rug.

But to know that somebody else
is experiencing the same things

Makes it more real

And definitely
a whole lot more scary.

Narrator:
for the next few weeks,

Talking about the haunting only
heightens the fear in the house.

Jennifer: as a parent, it was
terrifying that my girls were

Having to witness a lot
of the same things that I had.

It was a difficult situation,

Because I didn't know
what to do.

I didn't know
how I could help them.

I couldn't even answer all
of these questions for myself.

Narrator: within a few months
of moving in,

Tension is at an all-time high.

Lauren finds herself
walking around on eggshells

In constant fear
of the unknown and the unseen.

[ Wind whistling ]

[ Whistling stops ]

Lauren: I was in my room,
and I turned around,

And it was just
a really eerie feeling.

Something's in my closet.

[ Screams ]

Narrator:
for the last few months,
lauren and candice welburn

Have been experiencing
paranormal activity

In their million-dollar
pensacola, florida, home.

[ Thudding ]

Everywhere they go,
the teenagers sense evil,

While their mother jennifer
is convinced she's seen a ghost.

[ Screams ]

I was terrified.

I was afraid for my children.

I was afraid for myself.

Narrator: jennifer's fiancé
jamie doesn't believe her.

Strange things
were happening in the house,

But I didn't believe in
the paranormal.

It was such a big house,

I just thought that maybe
she wasn't used to it

Because it has its own
little creaks and sounds.

Narrator:
then one night, lauren's
instincts go on high alert

When she feels a presence
in her bedroom.

[ Wind whistling ]

[ Whistling stops ]

Lauren: I was in my room,
and I turned around,

And something's in my closet.

I was petrified.

[ Gasps ]

It had this hold on me.

It wouldn't let me
call for help.

I tried to scream out
for my mom,

But I couldn't get anything out.

I felt absolutely helpless.

I don't know how long it was --
seconds maybe minutes --

Before I was finally able
to scream.

[ Screams ]

Mom!!

Jennifer:
I heard lauren scream...

Lauren, what happened?

...and could tell
by the way she yelled for me

That something had hurt her.

[ Crying ]
honey, what's wrong?

What's the matter?

She picked her arm up to hang on
to me, to cling on to me.

She had two, it looked like,
claw marks.

They looked fresh.

It was pretty new,
whatever had happened.

Narrator:
lauren remembers the man lunging
at her but not being scratched.

What did you do
to your arm?

Lauren: I don't remember ever
being scratched or feeling pain.

Seeing that there was
completely horrifying for me.

It really scared me.

Narrator: jennifer fears that
the ghost she saw in the window

Has now attacked her daughter.

What happened?

There was a...a man.

Jennifer:
she was scratched. Look.

Narrator:
jamie has no idea what to think.

Now both his fiancée
and her daughter are convinced

The house is haunted.

[ Sighs ] by what?

Jamie: the first thing
that went through my mind is,

"How did it happen?

"Has she decided
to hurt herself for attention,

Hurt herself
and not want to tell us?"

I mean, I'm really concerned

Of what the surrounding
circumstances are

Of how it actually happened.

[ Firmly ]
she doesn't know.

There was a...man.

It attacked me.

I'm not going
back in there.

I can't go back in there.

You don't have to, honey.
You don't have to.

Jennifer:
she was shaking, trembling.

She didn't understand what had
just happened to her.

She didn't even
really understand

What she had just seen.

As a parent,
you protect your child,

And I was not able to do that.

I was terrified.

Whatever it was
definitely meant us harm.

Narrator:
jennifer decides to take
no chances with her daughters.

Jennifer: that night,
we took lauren and candice,

And we all slept
in the same room.

I didn't want my girls alone,
I didn't want to be alone.

We needed to be together,

Where we could look out
and protect one another.

Narrator: no longer able
to hold back her anger,

Jennifer confronts jamie
about the haunting.

What are we gonna do?

About what?

About the house.

Lauren was attacked.

I'm really worried.

I don't know, jenn.
I -- [ sighs ]

I just can't believe this stuff
is happening to us.

Jamie:
in the world I live in,

If someone's a threat,
you can face it.

And there, I felt like there's
just nothing I could do.

I couldn't really give them
any peace of mind.

I mean, what could I really say?

Jennifer:
it was really frustrating
that jamie did not believe.

Well, I'm gonna find someone --
someone who can help us.

Okay.

I knew
that my house was haunted.

I had to get help.

I had to do something

Because I did not know
what was going to happen next.

Narrator:
with the help of friends,
jennifer finds toni tally,

A paranormal expert, and invites
her to investigate the house.

My name is toni.

I'm an empath, and that means
that I feel things very deeply

About environments and people.

Narrator:
right away, toni feels

That the energy surrounding
the house is off.

Toni:
when I arrived on the property,

Something just didn't
ring right.

I felt very uncomfortable.

[ Doorbell rings ]

The level of negativity
made you feel like

You had to look
over your shoulder.

You definitely knew
something just wasn't right.

Hi. I'm toni.

Jennifer reached out to me.

Jamie: my biggest hope with
miss toni coming to the house

Was just to tell jennifer
that it's all in her head

And go back
to being life as normal

And just forget
about the whole thing.

Hi. Thank you so much
for coming.

How is lauren?

[ Inhales deeply ]
she is...still really upset.

Toni:
you could just really see that
jenn was wearing the stress.

You could see tightness
in her jaws.

Her whole body language
just really showed

That she'd been under stress
for a while.

She's refusing to sleep
in her room.

Well, that's where I'd
like to begin, in lauren's room.

Is it upstairs?

Yes. It's the first door
on your right.

Narrator: toni can immediately
sense an evil force at work

When suddenly...

[ Gasps ]

That dark energy --

He had written his name
in the mirror -- h-a-l -- hal.

I was awestruck.

I wanted to run.

Narrator:
for more "a haunting," visit...

Narrator:
for the past few months,

Jennifer and her
two teenage daughters

Have been spooked
by what they believe is a ghost

In their pensacola,
florida, home.

[ Screams ]

Then jennifer's oldest daughter,
lauren, is attacked.

[ Screams ]

Lauren!

Honey, what's wrong?!

Jennifer: as I saw the marks
on her arm, I was terrified.

[ Crying ]

I knew that if it had
attacked her on this level,

I was afraid
what was going to be next.

Narrator: a skeptic
of the paranormal,

Jennifer's fiancé jamie
has been no source of comfort.

I just thought people were
just a little over-dramatic.

If the wind blew,
they'd blame it on a ghost.

I, quite frankly,
didn't believe in it.

Narrator: feeling desperate
and alone in her fight,

Jennifer calls upon toni tally,

An empath with the ability

To feel the presence of entities
from other worlds.

Jennifer: my biggest hope was
that miss toni would be able

To come in and give us our house
and our lives back again.

Narrator:
it doesn't take long for
the ghost to introduce himself.

Narrator:
there was a large mirror
that had partially fogged,

And that dark energy --

He had written his name
in the mirror -- h-a-l -- hal.

I was up close and personal,

And in a one-sided fist fight
with dark, evil energy.

You are not
welcome here.

You must leave
this house.

You hear about
things like this,

But till you see it
with your own eyes,

You just always kind of have
a little bit of doubt

When you hear other people
talk about it.

Well, now here I am
in this situation

That I can't doubt the people
that have invited me.

On the inside,
it made me feel nervous.

Even though I was very afraid,

The family needed me to be
stable and confident

To get this energy
out of their home.

The only spirit welcome in
this house is the spirit of god!

Narrator:
the ghost of hal eventually
draws toni to the backyard,

Where a feeling of dread
immediately washes over her.

Toni: as I made my way
around the outside of the home,

It became very clear

That a lot of lives
were lost on that property.

As an empath, coming in contact
with that kind of feeling

Is extreme sadness.

Narrator:
and then...she sees them.

I had a flash vision of multiple
people hanging from the trees.

Narrator:
the men appear to be sl*ves.

The house sits
near escambia bay,

Believed to have been
the site of a sl*ve plantation

In the 19th century.

According to toni's vision,

Hal was the plantation's
sl*ve master.

Toni: I came to the conclusion
that this entity, hal,

Was over the sl*ves, somebody
who mistreated the sl*ves.

These are people that died
without their last rites.

They died under
the most cruel circumstances.

I knew this house had
a very dark presence.

I knew the family
was in danger.

Narrator:
toni gathers the family together

And confirms
their worst nightmare --

Their house is haunted
by an evil ghost.

Toni:
I know who attacked lauren.

His name is hal.

And he used to live
on this land.

Hal was a plantation master.

It was engrained
in his personality

To be cruel and inhumane,

And he brought that with him
into his afterlife.

I could see hal to be
in excess of 6'2",

Very large build,
very balded looking,

A scour across his face
all the time.

You could see the meanness
on this person

From the top of his head
to the soles of his feet.

If he were to laugh or smile,

It would be at somebody else's
weakness or pain.

Jennifer:
I had not told her anything
about what he looked like

Or what we had actually seen.

She came in
and described it to a "t."

I wanted to feel relieved,
but I didn't.

I felt more terrified

Knowing that someone who was
an expert in this sort of thing

Had seen the exact same figure
that I had seen.

It actually made me more scared
to be at the house.

So, how do we
get rid of him?

I believe we need to do
a house-cleansing,

And I'm going to start
in lauren's room.

Jennifer:
at this point in time,

I was willing to try anything
to reclaim my house.

Jamie: it was surreal that
miss toni was able to validate

Some of the things
that were going on there.

One half of me,
I wanted to believe her,

And the other half of me
still didn't.

I hereby banish all negative
energy from this house...

Toni: I knew that at that point,
the mission was to rid the house

Of all that darkness
and all that evilness.

...through the power
of light and love.

Narrator: for the next few days,

The family senses
a levity in the house,

As if hal has disappeared.

Lauren: after the cleansing
on the house,

It just felt
completely different.

It felt like it had felt
when we first moved in.

We had this little glimmer
of hope

That the cleansing had worked.

Jennifer:
everybody in the house just had
an initial sigh of relief.

"[ Sighs ] this is done.
It's finished."

I was incredibly hopeful that we
were going to get our life back,

That the house was going to
once again be my dream home.

Narrator: but the peaceful state
of the house

Is about to come
to an abrupt end.

Hal is back.

[ Screaming ]

Narrator:
ever since they moved in
to their million-dollar mansion

In pensacola, florida,

Jennifer
and her teenage daughters

Have been tormented
by the ghost

Of a former sl*ve-plantation
master named hal.

All of us were scared.

There was a lot of tension
in the house

Because we didn't know
what to expect anymore.

Narrator: in the fall of 2009,

Despite her fiancé jamie's
disbelief in ghosts,

Jennifer brings in an expert

To cleanse the house
of the evil spirit.

But she soon finds out
it didn't work.

He was back, and he was back
with a vengeance.

[ Screaming ]

I felt just a kind of a grip
on my ankle.

[ Screaming continues ]

I had this just gripping fear
grow through my body, like,

"This is someone
trying to hurt me."

I knew that someone was
under my bed.

Being a good, southern,
christian boy,

I keep a black bible
right by my bed

With a .45 loaded and c*ck
right on top of it.

What is it?!

There's someone
under the bed!

Jennifer: I was terrified.

I didn't realize what was
going on and what was happening.

You got three seconds
to come out!

I'm gonna open fire!

I just wanted to get at it, and
I wanted to inflict pain on it.

Aaaaah!!

There was nothing there.
Nothing.

That was impossible,
and it freaked me out.

Narrator: jamie realizes he's
up against the same evil force

That's been after his family,
and now it's after him.

This is my house!!

Jamie: I just lost it.

This is my house!!

I went on a tirade.

This is my house!!

A normal person would
probably think I was insane.

You want to bully somebody?!
Bully me!

I felt so helpless.

This is my house!!

I have a loaded .45,
and I can't defend myself.

I knew that this was hal.

He wanted to ruin my life
and my family,

And he was not gonna stop
till he did.

Lauren: it was
completely terrifying to know

That whatever this was

Could pull a man out of bed
like it did.

It terrified all of us.

Jennifer: for jamie,
this was the first time

That he knew
in his heart of hearts

That the house
really was haunted.

It caused him to feel

Like he wasn't in charge
of his household anymore.

There was something there
that was bigger,

Something there
that had more control.

That scared jamie.

[ Cellphone beeping ]

Narrator:
with nowhere else to turn,

Jennifer pleads
with empath toni tally

To come to their aid once again.

I was hopeful that she might
still be able to help us.

Maybe something was
just inadvertently left out

The first time that would
completely cleanse the house

And give us back
our home and our family.

Narrator:
that night, toni returns to do
a second cleansing.


And 17-year-old candice

Are not present.

Toni:
I need you to remain in prayer
with me and focus your energy.

I hereby banish all negative
energy from this home.

Toni:
when I was invited to come back
to the home the second time...

The lord is my shepherd.

...after walking through
and blessing and praying again,

I knew it would take
divine intervention

To be able to get
that dark energy out of there.

He leads me in the path of
righteousness for his namesake.

It made me very afraid
for the family,

Afraid for
the teenage daughters,

Afraid for anybody else, really,
that would come into that home.

[ Thud ]

All at once,
there was a very large thud

On the wall directly behind me.

Narrator:
toni has made someone angry.

I just kind of, like,
lost the feeling of direction.

It's the phantom.

She just does
an immediate stop...

[ Grunts ]

...and gets thrown back
against the wall.

Toni!

It felt like
somebody had punched me.

My arm.

What?

When she takes her hand away,

It's pretty obvious
that something...

Oh, my god!
What is that?!

...the only way
to describe it --

It looked like
something bit her.

It was gruesome.

I mean, it was bad.

It made me feel like I was
up against the most evil thing

I've ever faced in my life.

Narrator:
toni reluctantly claims defeat.

It appears hal has won.

I can't help you
anymore.

Everything until now
has just been a warning.

Jennifer: miss toni said
that she didn't feel

That she alone would be enough

To rid the house
and the land from hal.

Toni: I knew hal
was not gonna leave.

This energy that hal is, this is
beyond where my expertise lies.

Hal's energy
was just not gonna go easily.

It really required
divine intervention.

I'll find someone
to help you,

But I can't tell you
what to do.

Only your hearts
can do that.

Jamie: she said that there was
not gonna be a happy ending...

...that this is only gonna
get worse.

She really felt
that we were in danger.

It was devastating because
you spend most of your life

Thinking and dreaming
about an opportunity

To live in a house like that --


And it turns out to be
a living nightmare.

[ Jamie sighs ]

Narrator: for now,
jamie and jennifer decide

To keep hal's attack on toni
a secret from the girls,

But they do tell them
they are thinking about moving.

Lauren: I was ready
to be out of that house

And try to get the normalcy
back in our lives,

But after everything that had
happened, I was ready to go.

Narrator:
but it won't be soon enough.

Lauren:
I went into my mom's closet.

[ Screaming ]

Narrator:
for the past seven months,
jennifer and her family

Had been living in a haunted
million-dollar mansion

Near escambia bay, florida,
while an angry ghost...

[ Screams ]

...targets family members
one-by-one.

An empath has had visions
of a ghost named hal,

Who she believes used to be
a sl*ve-plantation master...

He's angry.

Jennifer:
I was scared to death.

He was a bully.

He liked being in control.

He liked people to be
afraid of him.

Narrator: ...and has warned them
they are in great danger.

The family makes plans

To move out of what was once
their dream house

As soon as possible.

When miss toni shared with us
that we were in danger,

Jamie and I decided to have
a serious talk about the house.

We didn't know
where we would go,

But we didn't know
what else to do.

We had to think about the girls.

[ Screaming ]

I saw this shadow figure,
and I knew it was hal.

[ Screaming continues ]

I felt this burning feeling
on the back of my neck.

I just remember
it hurting so bad.

What?!

My god!

Jennifer:
she had a scratch going

From the base of her hairline
halfway down her back.

Narrator: for jennifer,
this is the last straw.

We are leaving right now.

It was at this point
that I said, "I don't care.

"My kids --
this is not worth this.

"I don't care about the house.

I want out, and I want out now."

As much as I had loved
the house, I didn't want it.

Lauren: I didn't care about
having my own room anymore.

I didn't care about
how big the house was.

I was done.

I couldn't handle
that house anymore.

Come on, candice.
Come on!

Jamie:
doesn't matter what it costs.

Doesn't matter what
the devastation is financially.

It's time to say goodbye,
cut our losses,

And get my family to safety.

As crazy as it sounds,

I felt like I was in a fight
with what was in that house.

Girls, come on. Get in the car.
Let's go. Get in, please.

I've never walked away
from a fight.

That's the moment
I had to concede that it won,

That I would have to take my hit
and move on.

[ Engine turns over ]

I focused straight,
I put that car in drive,

And I never looked back.

Jennifer: after this happened,

We were struggling financially
for a little while,

Because all of our money
was tied up in the house.

We sold the house
back to the bank,

And the house
that we paid $1 million for

Was sold for $119,000.

I'm very blessed that we were
able to get out unhurt

And relocate and have our family
together and safe.

It was a very,
very difficult time.

Lauren:
before I moved into the house,

I did not believe in
ghosts at all.

I don't know
that it's something

That I'll ever fully put
behind me.

I think that it's something
that I'll always deal with.

I completely believe in
the paranormal now,

Whereas before, I would laugh
at anybody that said it.

Until you live it,
don't judge it.

'Cause it is real.

Toni: I was very sick
for the next few years

After coming in contact
with that house.

I had to have
an emergency surgery.

They removed
a mystery four-pound tumor

That had doubled my intestine
in half.

I was life-threatening.

I stopped doing house blessings
all together.

I believe that opens a gateway
that invites dark, evil energy.

I don't think
I'll ever be the same again.

I don't really think
there's any way you could.

You can't experience things

Happening like this
to your family,

Things happening like this
in your own home

And forget about it.

It changes who you are.

I don't know
if whatever this was

Has manifest itself at all

To the people
that are living there now,

But I have no doubt
it's still there.