02x02 - Episode 2

[bunniefuu]

[Orna] Michal
would like to not work.

Mm-hm.

And for you to be
the breadwinner.

[Michael] Mm-hm.

How do you feel about that?

I would love that.

You would love that.

[Michael] Yeah, I have
no problem with that.

But would you love that?

Would I love that?

Yeah, sure.

I'm fine with everything.

I'm not hearing you there.

That could not be true, that
you're fine with everything.

Why not?

[Orna] That's just
not how humans work.

I'm pretty much
fine with anything.

[Orna] Let's try
something else.

[Michael] Okay, fine.

What if you said
"This is what I want?"

I don't
particularly want anything.

Sorry, I'm still not
managing to hear you.

[Michael] I don't care.

[Orna] You don't care about...

I don't know.

Most things.

theme music

[laughter]

[Michael] Okay, which
game are we going to...

[Michal] I get the puzzle.

[Michael] [chuckles]
Why do you get the puzzle?

Because you
always snag the puzzle.

Because I'm better at it.

Um, you haven't solved it
once and neither have I--

Yeah, because you snatch it
every time I'm about to solve

it.

[Michal] That's so not true.

[Michael] Well,
how would you know?

You keep snagging it.

-You know what's funny?
-Me.

Because I have
such a good memory,

if I actually look at it,
I'll know how to solve it.

-So I can't look at it. [laughs]
-No way.

-Yeah.
-I say look at it and then

-flip it.
-Okay.

All right, I know
how to solve it.

-[Michael] All right, let's see.
-[Michal] Okay.

When we were first married,
the first few years of our life,

I was so excited every
time he would come home.

Sometimes, I would wait for
him by the window like a puppy.

Like, waiting for
him to get home.

And I just feel
like over the years,

so much resentment and so much
disappointment has built up that

it's very hard for me to just be
jovial and happy and carefree.

What he says to me, that when
he feels that I'm agitated,

it's hard for him
to come toward me.

Right.

So it's almost as if I can
never get what I need out of him

because when I'm upset and
when I'm agitated and when I'm

frustrated and when I'm angry,
it's when I need him the most,

but I'm the least
able to express it,

and he's the most likely to
take that step back and say,

"I don't want to go near you
with a ten-foot pole because

you're clearly upset right now."

Like, I don't want to be
the person to say to him,

"Will you give me a hug?"

Because I don't want a hug from
him because I'm angry at him.

But if you get a hug from him,
how will that get in your way?

Maybe it will make me feel in
some way as though I'm rewarding

him or make him feel like
everything is copacetic when

it's clearly not.

So you're kind of
doing a star system.

[laughter]

You are not getting a check on
the 10th day and you do not get

to stay home from work
so don't get any ideas.

The star system never
worked on me as a kid.

[Orna] It doesn't really work.

I feel like it also
expresses itself sexually.

I was just going
to ask, actually,

because that's
often the next arena.

[Michal] Yeah.

I get very frustrated that
he doesn't initiate things.

I'll say to him, "You know,
you don't have to do very much.

All you have to do is
just show me a little bit of

affection and
that'll be enough.

Like, I'll fill in all
the rest of the gaps."

But he won't do that.

He'll never take
that first step.

Never.

In 11 years of
marriage, it never happens.

[Michael] That's not true.

It's like you are asking
me to be that person that--

[Orna] Listen.

Part of what you're doing in a
way might be a clue to what goes

on sexually and
in other domains.

You are doing all the work.

You've asked the question.

You've answered already
what his response is.

You're doing it all.

-[laughs]
-[laughs]

But then you're
saying, "Where is he?"

Right?

So, let's ask.

-[Michal] Where are you?
-[laughs]

-[Orna] What are your thoughts?
-Are you even here?

I think so. [laughs]

What are your thoughts?

First of all, how are feeling?

Well, you know, it's--
setting a little uncomfortable.

I think there's, like, a
baseline fear that I'm upsetting

her, or that
she's angry at me.

She'll say, like, "Hey, I'm just
sitting here on Netflix and you

could just, like,
jump my bones."

And it's just like,
no, I'm, like, not--

You have no idea
what you're gonna get.

Like, I'm don't want to
jump into a bear trap that,

like, might be okay.

I put a real live bear trap and
I wait for him to walk into it

and I'm like grr.

Right, exactly.

I would say most of the
time I bring up a topic of

conversation, I feel like
it's shot down for some reason.

That creates a bedrock of--

A baseline of kind of expecting
to be rebuffed or criticized.

Yeah, a baseline of just, like,
being careful where I tread.

[Orna] Okay.

That's good information for you.

But to go back to the
original business of,

like, initiation, what ends up
happening is the more agitated,

anxious, and in a
way rejecting you are,

the more you retreat.

-Right.
-[Orna] Right?

Yeah.

[Orna] The more you retreat,
the more agitated you are.

That's it.

That's your dance.

-Right.
-Right?

So...

if we translated that into
what you each could do to make

somewhat of a difference and
see if we can get any traction

with that, what would be a way
for Michal to position herself

differently with you?

I mean, really--

[Orna] In a way that
would be less scary?

Yeah, I mean, look.

The truth is I'm
never scared of Michal.

[Orna] That's not true.

What I mean is that,
like, when I'm scared,

it's like scared to engage.

[Orna] Right.

So how can Michal position
herself differently so you feel

less scared to engage?

Well, the truth is, if she
were to greet me with a smile,

that would be a mile
in the right direction.

Like--

I always greet you-- I don't
know what you're talking about.

-I'm constantly smiling at you.
-[Orna] Okay, so wait.

[Michael] That's
not how it feels.

It feels like when I walk home,
I have to sort of take a deep

breath, walk into the room--

Oh, that sucks.

First of all, I don't
mean this as a rant.

But, like, I don't think there's
a day I come home that you

don't tell me about something
terrible that happened that day.

You gotta realize that
when I walk through the door,

the first thing I'm
getting is bad news,

uh, Michal's
probably in a bad mood,

and maybe just leave her alone,
or try to engage politely and

carefully without upsetting her.

And I'll do that and it'll
start getting on, like, buttons

I shouldn't be touching.

And then you just
sort of tell me to leave.

Like, that--

So would it be an okay
ask for you to move towards the

areas that Michal is
most agitated about?

Let's say you are imagining
"I'd like to have a really nice

relaxing evening later on.

Let me start off by actually
asking a question about what

really makes Michal anxious.

So how are we doing
with the finances?

What are your
thoughts about it today?"

Well, I don't know if I can
really bring those topics up.

I would love for you to
talk about that stuff.

I feel like you ignore it.

I feel like you get angry
when I talk about those things.

[Orna] Well, then bring it back
here and we will discuss that

because that's your homework.

Okay.

And for you, when
Michael comes home,

to spend half an hour
just having a benign,

pleasant interaction.

Yes.

Yes, and.

-Improvisational here.
-[laughs]

Yes, and can we also have a
half an hour talking about

things that are more practical?

Sure, I think that's perfect.

Fine, deal.

Deal.

Forged in blood.

[laughter]

With the therapist's spit.

Right, right...

ambient music

[inaudible chatter]

You okay?

-Yeah.
-Okay.

-[inaudible].
-[inaudible].

[kiss]
[giggling]

How are you?

Good.

We're better, don't you think?

I mean, I feel like
we're getting better.

Since last week,
we've talked a lot. [laughs]

I wanna hear.

Okay, so we are
planning a weekend away.

It's me, him, and
two of our friends.

There's a group text.

Everyone's going back and forth
and there's no decision-making.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

And--

Well, it's just
everyone is open to anything.

Yeah, which is great,
everyone's open to anything.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

But we know that
Matthew wants a plan.

Um, you just
have to have a plan.

For him, yeah, you
know, we talked about it.

What do you mean "for me?"

You want everything planned
the entire time we're gone.

Yeah, something
needs to be decided on.

I mean...

Wait, but I guess I don't
understand where the tension is

coming from.

What I feel like the true
tension is really all about is

the stress of me being with
him on a trip with his friends.

Meaning that Gianni is feeling
like he's needing to manage you?

[Matthew] Right.

[Orna] Do you
think that's true?

Mm-hm, yeah.

I think this is our
first trip since...

you got sober.

So it's a big deal
in a certain way.

Yeah, so I want things to go--

What does my sobriety
have anything to do with your

stresses of this trip?

I mean, I just want you to...

Don't feel stressed.

I don't know, like it puts
you in a bad place, you know?

I want everybody to enjoy
themselves and have a good time.

Me having to be in
the middle, you know,

with my boyfriend--

I see, your
boyfriend, your friends...

-[Gianni] Yeah.
-Uh-huh.

So you're anxious.

Mm-hm.

[laughs] Yeah.

Okay.

So everyone's anxious.

No, I think it truly is him
being anxious and it's like

projecting on me.

It's very odd--

Well, Gianni is
owning his anxiety.

He's saying he is anxious.

Matthew, you're saying that what
Gianni keeps projecting onto you

is...?

I guess that I don't
bring anything to the table.

I don't, you know...

What is the thing that you
don't bring to the table?

I think it's because I'm not
the life of the party anymore?

That he has to step around me
because Matthew's sensitive and

he's sober.

It just feels like a lot of
pressure on Matthew to be this,

you know, this ideal person that
he wants me to be and I feel

like I don't live up
to that expectation.

Gianni's very focused on your
happiness and your well-being.

And I can understand that part
of that feels like some kind of

pressure on you.

But what I also see is that
you're not experiencing

some of it as
simple care for you.

I hear two different--
completely two different things

going on.

You have this compassion that
you want to ensure this trip

goes very smoothly.

Mm-hm.

But then you have this
irritability going on that

revolves around me
and planning and,

you know, wanting to do
what Matthew wants to do.

So I just don't-- I'm getting
confused on which road we're on.

Like, are you compassionate
or are you irritable?

-[laughs]
-[Orna] But it's not either-or.

-Okay, so it's both.
-[Orna] It's both.

I don't understand how
this has to be so much work.

-Honestly.
-For you.

-Mediating.
-Yeah.

I mean, just going
away for the weekend,

why it has to be so complicated?

Because there are four people.

Yeah, I don't know
why I said yes to this.

Don't know why you
said these things?

What?

I said I don't know why
I said yes to this trip.

-But you're right, it's--
-[Orna] Why?

But that's normal.

-Normal people take trips--
-[Matthew] What's normal?

I want to live
with my boyfriend.

I mean, it feels like I
don't have a boyfriend anymore.

Like, I'm--

Okay, get back on track and
say why you got irritated.

Let's get back to the point

Because see?

Because I don't
want this to happen.

Okay, you did just
say you're opting out.

You're putting something in
there that Gianni's going to

respond to.

From the beginning
of this conversation,

I said, "You're projecting
this 'Matthew's not going to be

happy, I've gotta
manage Matthew.'"

[sighs]

But what are you
unhappy now about?

The whole thing.

I'm just not happy now.

But now you're totally
showing up for what Gianni was

expecting.

So...

how do you want
this weekend to look?

It's really easy to look at
all of it and look for the thing

that will trigger your fear or
your resentment or a memory of

something in the
past that annoyed you.

It's very easy to do that.

But what's available to you are
also really good things right

there on the table.

I see them.

So, what are you
gonna do with that?

I'm sure he's not gonna...

-[Orna] He's not gonna?
-He's not gonna go.

Yeah, you can
always bolt and exit and--

-[Matthew] I know.
-Take the easy way.

[Orna] I don't know
if it's the easy way.

It is.

It's the much easier way.

But then I'll get sh*t for that.

You should get sh*t for that.

I still have to find an
excuse to give tomorrow.

For what?

For you not coming.

I'm going.

Yeah, but I don't want you
to come and be like that.

No, you projected
this from the beginning.

-No, it's not--
-No, you projected this.

"Matthew's going to
not want to come..."

Gianni, Gianni.

Let him be.

Let him be.

[sighs]

[whimpering] It's so much.

Oh, it's just so
hard to manage me.

It's a lot to deal with.

Jesus Christ.

It's insane.

[Orna] Let's see.

Why does everything have
to be so hard every time?

[sniffling]

[Orna] Say it.

[Gianni] This is exactly
what I didn't want to happen.

-It's happening.
-[Orna] Which is?

This.

Because you projected
it from the beginning.

[Gianni] I didn't project it.

-[Matthew] Yes, you did!
-Wait, one second.

And I've been talking for weeks
now about how you're not happy

in this
relationship and here you are.

You have to be pushed to the
point where you come out with

your true feelings.

-[Orna] Which are?
-Because Matthew, it's always...

"I can't deal with him anymore.

His sobriety, it's just...

I always have to, you know--"

You don't seem happy.

I don't-- look at
you, you're not happy.

It's hard to make you happy.

Because you are constantly
projecting that I am the reason

and fault for everything.

That you have to walk around on
eggshells around Matthew and

"I can't drink around him at
this certain time or he's gonna

judge me for this."

What do I care if you drink?

Or your friends drink?

You're just
projecting, projecting,

projecting.

Matthew's sober.

Is that so hard?

Is that such a bad thing?

mellow rock music

As long as I hold a smile and I
make it seem as if everything's

okay or I don't show
any emotion whatsoever,

everything is good.

For him.

You know, if we're
having a good week,

don't wait 'til
the end to tell me,

"Oh, well, I was just being
quiet to keep you happy."

That's not what I said.

That's not what I'm saying.

She's not a good communicator,
especially when something is

bothering her.

So we should jump right in
there and take an example.

[Dru] Okay.

So this morning there was
some stuff on the table.

Her paperwork or something.

It's been there
for a couple days.

And now, it's driving me nuts.

So instead of me
saying anything negative,

I bunched it up and smiled.

Like, "Look what I
put here for you.

It's been a couple days now."

And she threw something in my
face about, like, "When I do the

laundry, I fold it and you
don't put it away right away."

And that got me upset because
something so simple of just

putting something
away, you know,

why do you have to
sit there and fight me?

Why does it have to get to a
point of now we have to face

off?

Okay.

-And then what happened?
-[Dru] So...

Then I grabbed the stuff,
I put it in the room,

and I said, "Okay, I'm
sorry, I won't leave my things

on the table anymore."

And then I went into the
bathroom to continue to get

ready for work, and there he
goes following me to say the

same thing.

"But I don't understand
why you got so upset."

It's over with now, Dru.

She says it like, "Oh, I
apologized and he's still up my

a*s about it."

No.

The way she
apologizes is basically,

uh, a silent "Shut the
f*ck up, leave me alone,

get out of my face."

So I'm hearing on both
of your ends you're not

really...

not wanting to
actually hear each other out.

Right?

I'm...

I wanna say that
I wanna hear her.

I want to know.

I want to get down to the root.

Why-- what makes
you get that upset?

Like, what flipped
the switch on you?

[Orna] Okay, let's try that.

Let's try that.

Why don't you ask Tashi?

Okay, so what...
flips the switch?

Because when it comes to
house things, I have asked you a

million times to
do a lot of things,

and you don't do them.

And I just gave up asking you.

Okay.

Do I ever get upset like you
do, like you did this morning--

Hold on, hold on.

Did you get an answer?

All I got was that "You do it
so it's okay for me to do it."

I heard a little
more than that.

What else did you hear?

That basically "I don't know
why you're asking me to do this

when I ask you to do
things and you don't do them."

That's why I was
trying to reply--

Right, that
there's some resentment.

Tashi's holding some
resentment about trying to get

you to do certain things in the
house that you haven't done

that she wants you to do.

Yes, yeah.

So you got an answer.

What are you doing
with that information?

I don't know.

[Orna] I'm not sure you're
actually processing it as

information, as an
answer to your question.

So, do you actually have
any interest in learning new

information from
the other person,

or do you want to keep
chewing on your resentment?

No, I'm always trying
to get down to the root.

[Orna] You are not trying
to get down to the root.

I would love to.

I-- I--

But you have the option right
now and you're not doing it.

And I will ask Tashi to
do the same thing for you.

How do you contribute to your
conversations disintegrating?

I probably shut down.

And I...probably
give him a bang, too.

Once he gives me a bang,
I give him another bang.

Meaning?

Meaning like if he'll say
something that's insulting to

me, I'll just say
something insulting back.

So a lot of retaliation?

[Tashira] Yes.

But then if I bring it up, I
mean, what am I supposed to do,

bring it up at
a separate time?

That would be
very wise, yes.

If you want to stop the cycle
of retaliation or this kind of

ping pong, yeah.

For sure.

But you also have to give up
the wish to win and retaliate.

I guess it's me
holding onto resentment,

and it's me just angry that I
kind of got pushed into this

life.

All I do is cook, clean.

I go to work.

I take care of the kids.

And when it's not done...

You could shake
your head all you want.

I'm staying quiet.

Continue.

That's just how I feel.

I was pushed, I was...

This housewife life was not
what I necessarily intended for

myself.

It just all happened so quickly.

I mean, I was a single mom.

I was living my life.

Now, I have two kids.

I practically have a husband.

And I feel like that's
what he wanted all his life.

He wants his family.

He wants his wife.

He wants all these things.

And sometimes it's heavy.

Sometimes it's a
lot to deal with.

It's a lot of responsibility.

And I feel like
sometimes I do it all.

So let's just maybe
artificially separate out the

idea that you do more
than you need to be doing,

and whether you want
to be doing it at all.

I don't know if I want
to be doing it at all.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

tense acoustic guitar

[man on TV] Here in New
York, Governor Andrew Cuomo has

confirmed the first case of
coronavirus in New York City.

Researchers say the virus may
have been spreading undetected

for the past six weeks.

[man on TV] The mayor reporting
a major jump in cases today.


could be a thousand in just a

week.

[De Blasio on TV] New Yorkers
should be prepared for the

possibility of a
shelter-in-place order.