We got in a big
fight on Saturday.
So tell me.
[laughs]
We were in bed
and it was
really early,
like, maybe
-6:00 a.m.
-Mm-hm.
I got up to go
to the bathroom,
and when I
came back
Lauren was,
like,
on my side
of the bed.
I just said,
"Scoot over."
And...
she, like,
kind of moved
and then I was
like, "You're --
like, you're on
my pillow."
and so I, like,
got my --
she, like,
lifted up,
I got my
pillow,
I put my head
on the pillow,
and then she put
her pillow down.
And I was like, "Now
you're on my head."
And she yelled
and was like --
Yelled saying...?
"You're all the way on
that side of the bed
an-- over in
your corner
and I woke up on this
side of the bed
and now I just want
to snuggle you."
And I said, "Okay,
if I'm on the --
in the corner,
you don't get to just come
and take my corner."
-Mm-hm.
-And then, she got...
real mad...and...
told me to
go f*ck off
and grabbed
her pillows
and slept on
the couch
for the rest
of the morning.
♪groovy bass
and drum beat♪
[knife slice]
[cat meows]
I had woken up and
went to the restroom...
and I hadn't really
gotten to see her
or connect
with her.
And so I think I was
really craving, like,
just some physical
touch and attention --
[Orna] Mm-hm.
[Lauren] and so I got
back into bed and I...
-snuggled up to her.
-Mm-hm.
I will add
that,
when we go
to sleep,
we snuggle
every night.
But it's been
a thing.
-It has been a thing about --
-Through our relationship...
that she's been
like, "Get away."
Like -- like --
Oh, come on.
-I've never said --
-Well, no, not "Get away."
-But it's been like --
-Wait.
Let's do each
their own version.
Okay.
Say your version
unedited.
I-- I-- I feel
it is like...
"Get away, I need
like, my space."
-Mm-hm.
-Or...
perhaps I
am, like,
scooting over
in the night --
-Mm-hm.
-but...
She -- like, no matter
where we start off the --
the evening at,
when I wake up,
I kind of, like...
-want to be near her.
-Mm-hm.
I think she'll say
that, like, she said...
to scoot over
in, like,
-a normal tone --
-Mm-hm.
It didn't really feel
like a normal tone.
It felt like...?
-Rejection.
-Mm-hm.
So let's -- so
just -- just --
just for the sake of,
like, understanding
the subtext of these
kind of dynamics,
if you had to say
what it feels like
if you go a notch
under, like,
the rational
part of it,
wh-- what --
what's goin' on
there for you?
It's like...
God damn it,
I'm just, like --
I just want
-to be near you --
-Mm-hm.
and you're,
like,
-pushing me away --
-Mm-hm.
and I f-- I feel
like I get, like...
-snapped at --
-Mm-hm.
As if...?
I don't know.
Like, maybe
that I'm...
selfish or...
-too much?
-too much.
-Maybe.
-Mm-hm.
Like I'm, like,
smothering, or --
[Orna] Mm-hm.
Okay, like...
what did you hear
Lauren say?
What's Lauren's
ultimate experience
of this
kind of --
That I was
attacking her
first thing in
the morning
for trying to
snuggle me.
No.
That's not what
she said.
What I heard,
an-- and tell me if I'm
capturing something,
what I heard
Lauren say is...
"I'm coming to
you with my...
want for love
and affection...
and you're rejecting me
as if I'm too much.
It is too much.
Hold on,
hold on.
D-- don't --
stay --
you're moving
back to yourself.
You know, this -- this
business of, like,
coming close
to someone
is a place of, like,
great vulnerability.
To feel like you're
doing it wrong there
has the potential
to be, like,
deeply wounding.
-Mm-hm.
-Humiliating.
But is that --
Lauren, is that --
is there more
to this?
Yeah, I mean,
obviously,
it has to be.
Like, the way
I reacted...
was...
over-the-top.
[Sarah] This wasn't
even the fight.
The fight lasted
all f*ck' day --
-Mm-hm.
-because...
she chose to, like,
get super angry
-Mm-hm.
-and just keep...
digging
and start bringing
up past sh*t.
And all I had
been saying was
"Gimme some
space."
-I mean, I don't --
-It feels like...?
She's ignoring...
-my boundary.
-Mm-hm.
And it feels like she's
ignoring it because...
'Cause she just wants
what she wants
and she doesn't give
a sh*t where I'm at.
-I see.
-Or what I want.
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
I mean, it's indicative
of a bigger problem.
Like, this
is...
how a lot of things
operate -- [laughs]
in our
relationship.
Meaning?
There has
been, like,
this sense of entitlement
in the past...
that we --
has been, like, at the
core of our problems.
-And --
-Tell me about that.
[Sarah] Lauren is
the breadwinner
in our family.
In the very beginning,
it was like...
I was her assistant,
because...
I didn't
have...
Like...
I was...figuring
my sh*t out,
job-wise.
It's not like we had a
conversation and I'm like,
-"You're my assistant."
-No, I didn't say that.
But that's how
you treated me.
But since you're not the one
making money, then...
-Then I should be doing --
-you should help.
It was expected
that, like,
I was gonna get up every
morning before her
and make the coffee
and give it to her
and when she came
home from work,
I was gonna have
dinner on the table,
and, like...
I was gonna do all
the laundry, and like --
that I was gonna be
there to do everything.
I -- I don't think
that's totally true.
I think
there --
there was a bit of...
like...
I'm trying to...
help us survive
and, like --
-By making money.
-get this new job...
and make
money and...
I needed help.
We have
struggled with...
this.
I felt, to an
extent, that...
yes, if someone's going
to sacrifice some time...
it makes
sense for...
the person
who's not...
-earning --
-Mm-hm.
close --
like --
close to
as much --
like, not even
close to, like --
who's not --
in the grand
scheme of things
wasn't earning --
wasn't keeping us afloat,
even in the -- the slightest
that that --
that made sense.
I have --
But there's
not --
I mean, you
didn't invent
that paradigm,
right?
-Right.
-That money equals...
power...
and money equals
some privilege
in the
relationship.
And it is something
that we have --
we have -- we have
talked through --
-Mm-hm.
-and I have worked on --
-Yeah.
-and in has been very,
very, very
hard to...
-switch that mindset --
-Mm-hm.
In the past, I would
say "entitlement."
-Yes.
-Mm-hm.
Today...
it's...
I just feel like it
kind of comes
from a
place of...
"I don't know how
to keep up."
-Mm-hm.
-I-- I-- I--
I am...
[sighs]
I'm nervous...
when there's dishes...
-around.
-Mm-hm.
Because you don't
want to do them.
-Can I ask a question?
-I mean, like...
It's not because I don't
want to do them.
I don't mind doing
the dishes.
I just --
I--
I just don't
have that much
time that
often
And --
and -- I--
I don't --
I don't know --
[Orna] And maybe you
don't feel like
it's your
job?
Because you're more
of the breadwinner?
[snaps]
Ding-ding-ding.
[Sarah] If we're
working --
let me ask
you this.
If you and I are
both working
the same amount
of hours --
Mm-hm.
whose responsibility is
it to clean the house?
And to make sure
sh*t gets done?
Ideally, we should
both split it.
When does
that happen?
-Not that often.
-Well, can I just ask...
I know it's
not a...
PC question
to ask, but...
and does it matter
how much money
each person
is bringing?
I think...
[sighs]
in my gut, I feel
like yeah.
It...
[sighs]
[sighs]
♪funky
music♪
[bark]
[barking]
-How are you?
-Hi.
-Hello.
-Hi.
Oh, it's cool
in here.
I sought therapy
for us
because I believe
that I wanted
a renegotiation
and without
help,
he wasn't gonna
take my...
opinion...
with as much
respect or...
weight as
his own.
Mm-hm.
I bring things
to you
-that mean a lot to me --
-Mm-hm.
and you...
are very --
-Dismissive?
-Yeah.
Do you recognize any
of this kind of --
[laughs] I understand
why she feels this way.
No, but do you recognize
that in yourself?
I recognize
w-- why...
she sees that.
So I -- I know what
she's talking about --
[Orna]
Yeah.
but it'd be,
like, me...
you know, telling
you what
-one side of this is --
-Mm-hm.
and then thinking
it's the whole side.
Alright, I got
it, yeah.
If you look at
it that way,
that's what you're
gonna see.
If you look at it
a different way,
you'll see
something else.
-Right, okay, so the --
-There was --
Wait, wait,
stop.
So this is exactly
what I --
this is exactly what
I was talking about.
I'll say...
"Don't say that,
that's mean" --
-Mm-hm.
-and -- and then
the other si--
so here's the
one side is
"That's mean,
those are ugly words
you're throwin' at me" --
-Mm-hm.
-Or like making me feel...
small,
but the other
side is,
that you can't
wait to show me,
is what a great
and supportive
husband you are
and how supportive
and da-da-da,
which just makes
my side...
irrelevant,
which is your whole
point of doing it.
Baby, that -- that was
a terrible example.
You are being
mean to me.
I already said
that I understand
why you feel
that way.
But you don't!
-Yeah, I do.
-You absolutely don't.
-I still do.
-Okay, but if --
I did when I said it and
I still do [indistinct]
Okay, then so
what part of that
is on you?
But -- but
what is --
what is --
what --
just say, what
part is on you?
Well --
[sighs]
the reason --
a --
a part --
uh...
Look.
It -- it can happen in
certain situations --
-Mm-hm.
-um...
But the constant in
those other situations
is the way that you're
approaching it.
-This is--
-Well, that's a dynamic.
That's a couple
dynamic.
I mean you're
saying to Annie,
"Look, there's a part
that is yours,
which is the way
you approach me.
Mm-hm.
What part's
yours?
[Orna] But
say,
"And here's where
I can meet you.
-Here's my part."
-Yeah, I mean --
Look, I'm struggling
to find what that is
-because --
-Come on.
You can.
No, no.
I'm being
sincere when --
You already
have it.
Your --
your --
it's not missing from
your relationship.
[Orna] Then just
say it again.
Even if you're doing
that effort,
you could
just say,
"Here's what
I'm trying to do."
Here's what
I'm already
successful
at doing.
That's not the
same thing.
I think you'll get
way more traction
if you say,
rather than
say
"I've been doing it
all this time,"
is if you
say,
"I can try
harder...
to...
not be
dismissive.
What triggers
me
is when you talk to me
in this way or that way,
but I still wanna keep
making the effort to --
-Mm-hm.
-Be respectful."
Yeah, that's
insulting.
-To whom?
-To me.
-That -- that's a --
-Okay --
that's a ridiculous
thing to say to me.
Bear that
insult.
It'll be good for
your marriage.
No, I won't
do it
and I don't
want it.
I-- If you
could --
if you were
to give me
everything I ever
wanted by doing that,
I'd say no.
I'd rather
have nothing
than have
that.
[Orna] It feels like we're
going nowhere, in a way,
because
of his...
defensiveness
and...
he won't make
use of anything
that I say
and very little
-of what his wife says.
-Mm-hm.
So it feels like I'm up
against this, like,
armor of
resistance.
Uh-huh.
His claim is
that everyone...
gets dismissed...
-at various points --
-In the world, in life --
-In the world.
-Yeah, right.
-And that she should just --
-No, I know.
Yeah.
She -- he says, "She
should suck it up.
-I give her so much --
-Mm-hm.
and we would
have peace.
[Orna] This is where it gets
wrapped up in feminism.
-Yeah.
-Like, is it
a legit thing...
to...
say "Okay, this marriage
will keep its peace...
if she gives up on
a certain kind of --
-No, I hear what you're saying.
-recognition of her
-subjectivity.
-I hear what you're saying.
And, uh,
it is a bad
choice for her.
Whether he can...
get beyond it,
that would only
have to do with
the treatment that
he's in with you.
There's no other way
he's gonna get beyond it.
♪soft tense
strings ♪
[video game
noises]
♪♪♪
She wants me...
to be attentive to
her at all times.
She wants
me to...
respond to her
at all times.
Um...
She wants...
more...
than I'm able
to give her.
-Mm-hm.
-Period.
Okay, what --
what's the more --
-Attention, attention.
-Attention.
Okay.
I-- I can't
please her.
I-- I don't...
I'm not -- I don't
have what she needs.
I can't give
it to her.
I'm -- I'm just
really angry,
sad, and frustrated
all at once,
I guess.
If I say to him,
"Let's go out.
Let's do
something.
Let's go to brunch or
something," he'll --
he -- he --
he won't do it.
I feel like
I'm -- I'm...
chasing something
or someone --
-Mm-hm.
-And I--
that's -- I--
I'm not -- that's --
I don't want to.
Do you --
do you want to say
something now?
So, if we have
this routine
where we'll -- we'll go
out on the weekend
and we'll do brunch and
we're hanging out together
and we'll do
this routine...
weekends in a row
and the one weekend
where I don't want to
you know, this is
the tirade that I get.
The last time that we
actually did that routine
was probably la-- in the
summer some time ago.
-And if that --
-We do it all the time .
Let me -- how could
we have done it
if you were't
waking up
to go to the
gym with me
and I was going
to the gym
-by myself?
-But we hang out.
-When?
-On the weekend.
Name it.
Name it.
-We'll go eat.
-Name it.
-Name it.
-Every Saturday and Sunday.
You know, I work
with couples a lot...
so let me see if I can
save you the time
of arguing about facts
about what happened.
[Elaine]
Mm-hm.
It doesn't
work.
Like, arguing "Did it
happen this way?
Did it happen
that way?
Did you --
did we go
or did we not
go since...
August?"
You're not going
to go anywhere
with that kind
of argument.
Instead, let's
think about
what's really
of importance
to the two of
you about this.
-Mm-hm.
-Right?
What's really at
the heart of it.
I think...
he wants it to
be a situation
where we live
with each other
and not
interact.
That's what it
feels like.
He thinks sitting on
a couch like this
just staring
into the box
is us
interacting.
And so anything
outside of that,
for him, is effort that
he does not want to...
exert.
I'm assuming you're
not gonna agree
with that description,
right?
-No.
-No.
So that's
not it.
That --
I-- I--
that's what
I feel.
That's what
I feel is --
That's what you
feel, but that's --
you're not --
you have to find
a place where
you actually agree
on what's going on
between the two
of you because
you're characterizing it
in a very extreme way.
You're each
getting polarized
into your own
extreme version.
Let's try to find out
what's really going on,
not your...
fears of what's
going on.
We used to go
out a lot more.
We used to go on
a lot of trips.
We spent more
time together
and we had
fun together,
and we laughed
together.
And, um...
-not so much anymore.
-Mm-hm.
But I can't put
a finger on it.
But you're saying
something changed in your...
way of being in
the relationship?
Something definitely
changed.
And you're
saying in --
in how much you've
wanted to please?
I think
for me,
there's a
lot of, um...
I don't want
to reward
the behavior
that --
because,
you know, I--
you know, I--
there are a lot
of times I feel like...
um...
you know, she's done
or said something
that I don't like
or she acts in a way
I don't like...
I just don't want to reward
that behavior anymore.
-I'm -- I'm not --
-So you...
-retreat --
-I guess that's --
as a way
to punish?
Not as a way to punish,
it's just --
Well, "not reward"
is punish.
Okay.
-Maybe that's it.
-It's -- you're having --
you're trying to
have an impact
by retreating.
A passive impact
by saying
"I don't want
this beha--
This -- I don't
approve
of this behavior."
-Yes.
-Yeah.
And the behavior you
don't approve of is...?
[sighs]
I don't know,
she gets mad
all the time.
She's always mad
at something.
She's always yelling
at something.
You know, anger is rarely
a primary emotion...
right?
Usually, anger is,
like, some kind of
defense against
something else.
Feeling humiliated,
feeling sad
feeling hurt...
You know, people
don't like to...
feel vulnerable,
so they put up anger.
So your way of
avoiding the fighting...
is to try to minimize
interaction --
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
[Orna] Like, you could
be offering more
and you're withholding
maybe because
you're resentful
or...
Yeah.
So what if,
when you want
to withdraw
-and minimize interaction --
-Mm-hm.
go towards.
You hear what Elaine
wants from you, right?
She wants to spend
time with you.
[laughs]
-Yes?
-Yes.
You're laughing
because...?
I feel like...
I will do
that, right?
And I'll do
that for...
six days out
of the week.
-Mm-hm.
-That seventh day --
Mm-hm.
if she wants me
to do something
and I don't
wanna do it
-or I can't do it --
-Mm-hm.
It's all for
naught
-and it's just like, "You --"
-Okay, then we have --
then we have to
deal with that
and I will help the two
of you deal with that.
I don't -- I don't
feel like I want
to deal with that
...anymore.
Well, what's --
uh...
I'm here.
You can't --
that's not --
-[laughs]
-No!
No, we're working.
[laughs]
All right.
-No out.
-Okay.
-Stay in.
-[laughs]
[Orna] What are
you thinking?
-I--
-How are you feeling?
I'm raging.
You're raging?
You look sad.
Yeah, that too.
[Orna] So...
what are you
sad about?
[sighs]
[sighs]
[sighs]
I'm just
tired of...
-feeling like this.
-Mm-hm.
And then to hear
him say that...
he's punishing me...
like, WTF, right?
Like, what?
Oh, I put that word
in his mouth.
But it's -- but...
I heard it even
before you said it
because it's like
what you said:
not rewarding
is punishing.
[Orna] Right, but you're
taking that to mean
-that he is punishing--
-Trying to hurt you --
But what else do
you think it means?
I'm not trying
to hurt you.
You're taking it to mean
that you're being punished
for wanting Desean's
company, right?
No, it's -- it's
just -- it's --
I-- I just
feel like...
I'm trying to force
a situation
that he doesn't
want.
He clearly
said it.
What -- you're
hearing something
-that I didn't hear.
-That's what I heard.
But help me understand
what you heard.
He doesn't wanna put
the work into...
into that
process, right?
Like -- like,
spending the time
and going
through those --
through that, for him,
is too much effort.
-That's not what I heard.
-That's what I heard.
No, what I
heard is...
he wants to spend
time with you,
he wants to
make the effort.
He -- he is
extremely averse
to conflict.
Do you understand
that?
There's no
conflict.
Right, but
what --
you have a high
tolerance for...
um...
conflict, energy,
anger.
Desean doesn't.
From your
point-of-view,
the more you feel
like there's anger
or criticism coming
your way,
-the more you retreat.
-Yes.
and you're
saying,
"If only...
my partner
over there
would stop
being angry...
-I could give more.
-Yeah.
I would want
to please more."
Yes.
Elaine is
saying...
"I want more
connection.
I want more simple
togetherness,
doing things
together."
The more you
retreat,
the more abandoned,
alone, rejected...
Elaine feels...
the more rejected
Elaine feels
the more she'll
go after you.
Gives each of you
a pretty clear idea
of what you need to do
to change that dynamic.
Okay.
Okay.
-Okay.
-[sighs]
-We're done?
-We're done.
-Thank you.
-Okay.
♪bluesy rock
music♪
[Sarah] Thank
you.
-Bye.
-Thank you.
All right, good
night, guys.
Thank you
so m--
Can I give
you a hug?
Yes, you can.
Thank you.
-See you.
-Bye.
G'bye.
♪...feelin'
♪
♪I got a bad
feelin'♪
♪Mmm
♪
♪I got an
itchy mind♪
♪Got thoughts that
I can't scratch♪
♪I got a
parasite♪
♪That I just
cannot detach♪
♪And I've got
a bad feelin'♪
♪And I don't
feel right♪
♪No I don't
feel right♪
♪'Cause I got a
bad feelin'♪
♪About
it♪
♪I got a bad
feelin'♪
♪About
it♪
♪And I can't stop
holdin' on to it♪
♪And I can't stop
holdin' on to this♪
♪Bad
feelin'♪
♪And I don't
feel right♪
♪I can't slow it
down♪
♪And I can't catch
my breath♪
♪And I feel paralyzed by
things that ain't happen yet♪
♪'Cause I got a
bad feelin'♪
♪And I don't
feel right♪
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