My dad has always
told me, like,
you make sure
you're happy,
because...
you're ultimately
in charge of that,
you know what
I'm saying?
Like...
[sniffs]
-Meaning --
-Don't depend on anyone.
You know...
goin' back to when we
got married, like...
the day before,
he was supposed
to come out,
like, he just said
he's not coming'...
'cause he just --
he didn't
believe that
I was doing
the right thing.
Wow.
That's sabotage.
He...
had a girlfriend.
Like, you
know, like...
I guess my mom
had called him
for something
and, like,
she picked up
the phone and --
I don't -- I don't
know what h--
something transpired,
and --
Mm-hm.
[voice breaking] You
know, it's just, like,
my dad --
[whispers]
It's okay.
No, I don't even
know why
I'm getting
upset. [laughs]
-Well, keep going.
-[clears throat] Um...
no, my dad always
told me that --
he said --
he's like,
"You taught me a lot --
[clears throat]
You taught me a lot
about relationships,
like...
how much you love."
[crying] You know, my
parents had split up...
shortly thereafter,
so it's just --
[stifles cries]
[sniffs]
it's just like, I
don't understand.
[Orna] Yeah.
I think it just ties
into everything...
that we --
like the mistrust
and stuff like that,
and...
as much as...
I may put myself in a
position where it looks...
like I'm doing
something, like, I--
that's -- I would
never do that.
Mm-hm.
If I cheat on
you or if --
there's no turning
back from that.
[sniffs]
♪slow airy
music♪
[Orna] So you
were away, or...
-remind me?
-I was.
-I was away.
-What were you --
I went on a father-son
trip with my dad.
-Oh.
-Yeah.
So who went?
Just me and
my dad.
Wow, that's
extraordinary.
Yeah.
[Orna] And how are
you two as a couple?
-We're --
-[laughs]
I think we're
okay.
Yeah, we're okay.
We just weren't on the
best terms when I left.
Yeah.
What happened?
He was with
his dad.
He gave me a call,
and he was like,
"I'm on my way home
with my dad."
So I head home --
[clears throat]
and...no one
was home...
so I thought
that was weird.
Maybe...they went out
to eat or something,
which... again,
I thought that
that was strange
that he wouldn't even
have called me t--
to invite me
or anything.
So...
I went ahead
and I...
ate by myself
at home...
and then he ends
up coming home...
and he's like,
"Where's my dad?"
And I was like, "Wait you
weren't with your dad?"
And he's like, "No,
I, like, went-"
I went to take care of
something with the car
before I left.
He kind of, like...
brushed it off.
He was like, "Oh, I went
to the mechanic."
I knew that he had
been drinking,
'cause I could smell it when
he sat down next to me
on the couch.
He said what
he said, like,
"Oh, I -- I went
there to, like,
get my mom's tires
rotated, and...
you know, I just stayed
there to hang out."
Like, this and that.
And I honestly didn't
really believe it,
because...
why should I?
It comes across...
like...
you're hiding
something.
[voice cracking] I just feel
like the lack of effort
just really shows me how
he feels about me,
and it's not --
it's not good.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
And I guess I have
to see that,
'cause that's
really --
that's really who
he is, you know?
Mm-hm.
[sighs]
So while he was
away, I felt...
almost like --
like a --
almost like
a relief...
because I feel
like I didn't have
to worry about
anything.
What -- your face
is saying a lot.
Wh-- what are
you feeling...
when you're
hearing Evelyn?
It's just,
like, I--
I feel like it's
an overreaction.
It's my buddy's
shop,
I went there...
he was doin'
me a favor.
They had beers
in the fridge.
He knew I wasn't
gonna be here
for my birthday
He just said, "Oh,
you know,
like, hang out
for a little bit."
He was an old f--
it was nothing...
nothing, but...
I get home
and it's just...
immediate attitude.
And then he --
listening to her tell
you, it's just like,
"Oh, I don't know
what he's doing,
I don't know
what he's doing."
Like...
why do you
automatically assume
that I'm doing
something...
to you?
She didn't call me,
first of all.
Mm-hm.
You know, sh- she
could've been like,
"Hey, um...
I- I didn't know
where you were,"
or like, "I didn't know
what was going on.
Like...
I had this...plan,
like, we were gonna do
something for dinner.
Like, I didn't know
what we were doing."
Like, there's
no plan.
And then I- I would've
apol- it's a-
it's a
miscommunication.
Why didn't
you each call?
Why didn't you call and
why didn't you call?
[sighs]
I just wasn't...
thinking.
I r- really, like,
didn't expect to be
there as long as I was.
But I'm just curious,
why didn't you call?
[Alan] I just-
I just didn't.
-It was a bad-
-But say-
try to- try to
think about
what was going
on inside you.
I didn't think I was
gone for that long,
or that I
needed to.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
What are you
thinking, Evelyn?
Why not call
or text?
I guess
because I...
thought he would've
been home,
and then the fact
that he wasn't...
and didn't say
anything,
and I thought that
he was with his dad.
I was like,
"Okay, they either
went out to eat
and they...didn't
invite me [laughs]
so I'm just gonna
do my own thing...
-and I'll let them-"
-So you started-
but you started
to go down
a certain path of
feeling insulted?
Yeah, I guess.
Yeah.
I'm sorry to
interject,
but like,
you see?
Like, all these
things when
you could've
just asked me.
You could've
just called.
Like, I don't
like to be...
looking for you.
Like, I don't
want to be,
"Oh, well, if you-
if you were interested,
or if you couldn't-"
You know, "If you
were concerned,
then why didn't
you just call me?"
W- why do I have to
be looking for you?
-Did it-
-I'm an adult.
If I'm gone for
two hours,
it doesn't mean
I'm off...
-cheating on her.
-Mm-hm.
And that's-
that's the vibe
that she gives me.
Like I'm being
dishonest or deceitful.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
A- and it-
frankly, it just-
it pushes
me away.
And it's not, like,
even though
we've been...
doing this
and, like-
I don't feel like
anything is changing.
[Orma] Mm-hm.
[Evelyn] I feel like things
were getting better.
Do you feel like
you...
telling me...
and communicating
with me --
'cause I feel like we were
doing well for a while.
Do you feel like...
that was not
working for you?
[voice cracking] Was that
that difficult for you?
Well, let's...
hear what Alan
has to say.
I did not have a
problem with it,
but it's like, the
one time I don't,
it's like the end
of the world.
-Mm-hm.
-[sniffs]
But knowing that that's
what's gonna happen,
I mean, we- we can
all predict it already,
that that's
the dynamic...
why go there?
You mean go down
that route?
Yeah.
Uh, I don't
know.
♪soft
piano♪
[sigh]
[Alan] Have a good
night, Orna.
-You too.
-Good night.
[Orna] They were supposedly
getting better.
He was being
more up-front,
she was feeling
less suspicious...
and then there's,
like, a backslide...
and they're both feeling
kind of hopeless.
They each described...
not feeling up
for the effort...
a-- almost like there's
not enough love, or...
But...
they were getting
rewards for the effort,
week by week.
It was a lot
of effort
and they got
their rewards.
[Orna] Yeah.
So some- there's
something else in here.
Could it be the cruise?
It's like, it's a very
big thing to do-
He can't really be
in this relationship
because of his
identification
-with his father.
-And his father did not,
um...
anoint them.
Yeah.
I mean, that is the
most astounding thing.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
♪funky
music♪
[meow]
[meow]
I go through phases
where I'm just, like,
I don't wanna
have sex,
and, like, not
interested.
I can be
persuaded,
but like,
ennh, no.
And then I go through
phases where I'm like,
"Oh, my God, I can't
get sex off my mind.
Please, Lord,
give me...
-sex right now."
-Mm-hm.
There's been a lot
of that lately...
-and-
-A lot of "give me"?
-A lot of me being like-
-Mh-hm.
"Oh my God,"
like, revved up.
Mm-hm.
And...
Lauren being like...
"Yeah, sure,
let's do it."
Where I'm like,
"Mm, you're not
into this."
I'm just not...
feeling just very...
sexual...
right now.
Sarah has been in
a period of, like,
extreme...
-like, wanting to have sex.
-Mm-hm.
And...
she'll say...
"I'd like to have
sex this evening."
-Mm-hm.
-I say...
"Great!"
-Like, "I'm in."
-Mm-hm.
Like, I- I'll- I'll
absolutely have sex.
Like, I might
not be...
wanting, like,
in that moment
-to have sex-
-Mm-hm.
but...
the fact that she
wants to have sex,
like, yeah, I can
certainly be into that.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
And...
then nothing
will happen,
and then I feel like I
continually get blamed.
And what's
your wish?
That she would,
like,
want to have
sex, or, like,
at least bring
it up-
That she would
want it,
or that she would initiate?
I guess
initiate...
because...
I feel like I'm
always initiating.
Lauren really
hardly ever...
I mean, I don't-
like, percentage-wise,
maybe...
Does that
feel fair?
-What are you asking?
-Initiates?
Yeah, I'd say
that's a generous.
I would say it's
generous too,
but I was trying to
be kind. [laughs]
No, that's very
generous.
-Um-
-So you initiate more...
and that
bothers you?
I think I...
want to feel wanted.
Part of it is most
likely tied...
to...
um...
I had my surgery...
uh, my bottom
surgery-
-Mm-hm.
-Six months into
our relationship.
Theres a, uh...
a complication
that I have that...
uh, makes, um-
-it's incredibly painful.
-Yeah.
It kind of, like...
shuts me down,
uh, pretty good.
-Mm-hm.
-Um...
Which is fine, we've like
worked around that,
-but it was...
-Yeah, it's not uncommon,
-right?
- No.
Yeah, it's- I have
a stricture,
-which is, um-
-Mm-hm.
Yeah, just feels
like jagged glass...
and I have a lot
of shame...
around it...
um...
What, uh-
what's the shame?
Help me...
understand,
get there.
I feel like I did
something wrong.
I think she feels
like it's her fault...
that...
her vag*na causes
her pain.
I-- i-- i--
is that it?
I just- I feel kind
of incomplete,
and kind of...
um...
[sighs]
I j-- I feel very
ashamed.
It's just kind of, like,
where I'm at, like...
down there,
and it just...
makes me-
I think, uh,
I'm angry.
-I think I'm angry.
-Mm-hm.
Still, I feel like
the shame is...
there's some--
something hidden in that.
[Sarah] Hm.
Like, wh-- what is
this shame about?
Like something
is getting...
passed around...
through the shame...
and I-- I wanna go back
to how it affects
the two of you.
W-- how has it affected
your sex life,
-your erotic life, your-
-Yeah.
I feel like we got into little
grooves here and there
where...things
would click,
and we'd...make
something work,
and then we'd
fall out of it...
and then it was just really
hard to start back up.
Like, I think at
some point...
probably right before
we got married,
it was like...
we were going, like,
a month or two...
without having sex.
-I think two months.
-Without any kind of sex?
-Yeah.
-Yeah.
And then when
we got married,
like, I think I
started panicking
right before we got
married, of just being like,
"Oh no.
Like, there's part of
me that's dying."
Meaning if you give
up on your sex life,
-the two of you.
-Yeah.
I remember, that was
my only hesitation
was being, like,
"Our sex life,
I don't know if
this is right."
Did you talk
about it then?
We tried talking
about it.
I feel like every time
we talked about it, it-
it got heated,
and like...
I think that
Lauren got-
felt...defensive
and like I was
attacking.
But then after
we got married,
we opened up
our relationship...
and...
that, like...
it was like...
-a- a pressure relief valve.
-Mm-hm.
Just the conversation
of being able
to have sex with
other people
took a lot of
pressure off.
[Lauren]
It did.
That suddenly she
wasn't on the defense,
she was like,
"Oh, you
have needs-
Mm-hm.
Cool.
And here's a
solution, like,
where maybe you can
get your needs met."
Mm-hm.
And then she was
kind of thinking, like,
"Well, sh*t, maybe
I wanna date men.
Yeah.
And then we
got to...
-explore all of that-
-Mm-hm.
together, and
that was...
just...
magic.
That was like a-
such a turning point
for our relationship.
-It was pretty cool.
-Mm-hm.
And then suddenly,
like, we were, like,
having sex with
other people...
separately, together,
and then
it was like
encouraging us
to have sex,
-like more sex together.
-Yeah.
Amazing.
And it really just
sort of, like,
changed our
whole world.
Mm-hm.
And now that I say
this, I'm like,
we haven't dated
anybody externally
-in about a year.
-Mm-hm.
And I have, like, a massive
crush on someone.
-[laughs]
-Mm-hm.
And so, like, I am
super revved up,
like, I know that's
why I'm revved up.
-Mm-hm.
-Yeah.
And...
it's been really
fun to, like,
share my fantasy
with Lauren,
and like tell her every
step of the way,
and be like, "This
happened today,
this happened today."
You know?
-Like, crushes happen.
-Mm-hm.
And it's been great, but
I'm not getting the, like-
like-
like I wanna bring
that energy to her
and be like,
"Let's t--"
'cause nothing
is happening.
But like, let's
do this. [laughs]
-Like, let's-
-Mm-hm.
Let's roll with
this energy,
and she's not...
especially, like...
yeah.
I-- she's not in a place
where she can, like...
-roll with me.
-Come along.
Yeah.
I just- I think
that's-
I don't-
what do you want
my response to be?
I just wish that
you were, like,
as excited to have
sex with me
as I am...
to have sex
with you.
♪soft
music♪
♪♪♪
I don't want to
fight with you.
I really, really would
be so happy
if we could just
stay calm.
Remember the-
our safe word, okay?
-It's Mamie.
-Mamie.
[laughs]
-Hi.
-Hi.
Hey.
[Orna]
Hmm.
One of the things that
we didn't get to
is that...
Mau, you know...
he left home
at 15.
He left for an
older woman,
because this
college-aged woman...
picked him up...
and...
bed-bound him for
a couple of days.
His family didn't
know where he was...
and it was, like,
his sexual awakening,
slash...
like, that
was it.
Childhood was over.
And he was with
this woman
and...he really
never went home.
Mm-hm.
This was the
first person
that ever said
to him,
"You're great
at something,
you're great
at this."
You know, she-
it happened to be
that she was treating
you as this, like...
you know, sexual
powerhouse...
child.
But...
that experience,
that foundational
experience,
then informs...
so much that
we fight --
that we have
fought about.
Okay, I- I need
to hear more...
just to know how
to understand
-this piece of history.
-Okay.
[Orna]
How old were you
when your parents
separated, finally?
Um...
I think probably
like 11 or 12.
And- and who
did you go with?
[Mau] My mother.
She didn't so mu--
I don't think she, like,
really took care of us.
I mean, we
were there ,
and so we
were safe,
because she
was not...
violent the way
my- my dad was.
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
-Um-
-So you were safe physically.
Yeah, we were safe
physically, um-
But what kind of
mother was she?
I mean, I'm a big fan
of my mother's.
Uh, you know,
my mother is...
uh, she's like
incredibly warm.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-And- and-
and sweet and...
vain and
thoughtless.
-You know, uh-
-Mm-hm.
I mean, to
this day,
I think if you were to
ask any of my siblings,
we'd all agree that
we're still waiting
for her to take
us to the pool
I mean, she-
she never once
successfully
accomplished,
like, any, like...
you know, you-
"We're gonna
do a thing."
Like, it never
happened.
You mean pack
up a bag
and go to
the pool and-
Anything, like
there's no-
there's nothing
that ever-
a-- and, uh, you know,
maybe that's unfair.
You know, the truth is
she had a bunch of kids...
she was overwhelmed.
By the time
you were 15,
what was going
on a-- at home?
I mean, our-
You were going
to school still?
Tha- that's-
I dropped out.
But you dropped out
around this relationship?
Um...
it wa-- no, it wasn't
about the relationship.
-Although-
-Was it around the same time?
It was around the
same time, yeah.
So what was going on
at home around then?
Uh, I think it was just sort
of more of the same.
It was like m--
our house was
unsupervised.
When I disappeared,
like, I mean,
I-- I hooked up
with this girl,
and I just went
with her, and...
it never dawned
on me to-
to communicate
with anybody, uh-
I-- I never
had before.
About this
love affair.
No, no, no.
-About-
-About being-
not coming home
for dinner
and then not
coming home.
Right, but we didn't
have dinner.
That's what I'm
saying, though,
-I'm trying to just-
-Yeah.
[Orna]
I see.
He just didn't come
home one day.
Like, the thought of one of
my kids doing that. [laughs]
-[laughs] No, no, I-
-It's, like, unthinkable.
When I did show
back up,
my y-- younger
brother, Reg,
he was like...
"Yo, where've
you been?"
And I'm like, "Oh,
I was just-
I met this girl,
I was with her."
He's like,
"Oh, okay."
-[laughs]
-That was it.
That was the extent
of the conversation,
-o- of-
-Right, no parent questioning.
-No.
-No older brother,
-nobody noticing.
-I mean, I h--
[laughs] I don't know
if my mother is aware
-I wasn't there.
-To this day, yeah.
I mean, she- she
may not have known.
That's upsetting.
Come on, I mean, you-
we can't joke...
that far.
Hold on.
I-- I appreciate
that.
It isn't upsetting
to me.
I, uh-
having kids
of my own...
I-
I would be very
upset and-
And just thinking-
you would be upset
as a parent,
but just thinking
about the kid...
Yeah, I mean-
No one worrying
where you are
at 15, that's
upsetting.
Or before, that's
upsetting,
and that's
non-negotiable.
Okay.
I-- I don't have a
sense that, like,
things were
terrible.
I mean, I can
understand...
that I didn't have sort of
a typical or- or...
it was not a path
that would...
genuinely lead
to success.
-Yeah.
-I mean...
we never had
enough food.
I never- I mean, the first
new clothes I ever wore
were clothes I bought
for myself.
You know, the-
that was...
my experience, but
because that was my exper--
I mean, I could
re-write it...
but I don't know what
the point would be.
♪soft
music♪
[Orna] He is
self-educated,
he didn't go to school
beyond ninth grade.
Very poor...
um, no one really
taking care of him.
-Yeah, so-
-Extreme neglect.
Bu- neglect
on her side,
but I've got "abused"
here because
-the dad was actually--
-The dad was
-physically a*usive.
-Yeah.
[Orna] He says, "We're-
we're still waiting
for her to take us to
the pool 35 years ago."
Mm.
He's illustrating her
incompetence,
but if we just shift
our attention,
there is the child...
still waiting
for their mother
they are in
love with...
who is right
over there...
-and doesn't even-
-Oh my God,
that is the
birthday thing.
Yeah, exactly.
And that's the
birthday thing.
-[laughs]
-There you have it, right.
Right, still waiting.
So a foundational
strand of his identity
-is "I do it alone.
-Mm-hm.
-No one helps me.
-Yeah.
No one believes
in me,
but I will
succeed...
doing it my
way."
[Orna] Right, which is
what he does with her.
Yes.
Yes.
And this is
a real-
this is one
of those,
"I saved my life...
because I met
that challenge.
Don't mess with
my system."
Okay.
♪groovy
beat♪
No, we've never
gotten this far...
before.
[Annie] We've
never been...
♪Don't let me
do it to him♪
♪Don't let me
do it to him♪
♪He came to me with
a messed up face♪
Thank you.
-Have a good one.
-[inaudible]
♪What he don't know
is I ain't no clown♪
♪So I pulled up close
and I struck him down♪
♪Struck him down,
down, down, down♪
♪Yeah
♪
♪Struck him
down♪
♪Words are words but
what he did was bad♪
♪Maybe he thought he
could just hold me back♪
♪What he don't know is
I ain't no clown♪
♪So I pulled up close
and I struck him down♪
♪Da-da-da
da-da-da♪
♪Ooh, I struck
him down♪
♪I struck him down,
down, down, down...♪
♪Ahh
♪
♪I struck him
down♪
♪Yeah
yeah♪
♪He came to me with
a messed-up face♪
♪Tryna hold me down
put me in my place♪
♪What he don't know
is I ain't no clown♪
♪So I pulled up close
And I struck him down♪
♪I struck
him down♪
♪Yeah
♪
♪Yeah
♪
♪Words are words but
what he did was bad♪
♪Maybe he thought he
could just hold me back♪
♪What he don't know
is I ain't no clown♪
♪So I pulled up close
and I struck him down♪
♪Pulled up close and
I struck him down♪
♪I struck him
down♪
♪I struck him
down♪
♪No, no
no, no♪
♪I'm
unstoppable♪
♪I'm
invincible♪
♪You get in
my way♪
♪Then I'll be like him
and I'll strike you down♪
♪Yeah
♪
♪Yeah
♪
♪I struck
him down♪
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