03x11 - Episode 11

[bunniefuu]

[woman VO] 13 questions
for couples:

Who is a bad b*tch queen?

Who has the bigger d*ck?

[laughter]

Hey, we just wanted to
tell you that, like,

gender isn't real, betch.

Wear whatever you want!

Unh.

We got our Christmas tree.

[coughs]

And we got COVID, baby!

Hahaha!

- [groans]
- That was not a good idea.

Something for your mind [Mind]

Mind [Mind]

Mind [Mind]...

- [Christine] Couple of bros!
- Bros here!

- That's Chris!
- COVID 2021!

- That's Dean!
- Yeah, Chris!

Giddy up!

Something for your mind [Mind]

[Mind]

[Mind]
Something for your

Mind

[Mind]

[Mind]
Something for your

[groans]

[shivers]

[exhales]

I'm struggling a bit.

I've had really bad IBS
the past couple of weeks.

I can't even get through my
meals without running to the

bathroom.

This month, I
match for residency,

so maybe it's, like,
underlying anxiety about that.

Mm-hm.

And also, I mean, there's a lot
of...  I'm still kind of confused

about what's going on here.

Do you wanna
elaborate more on that?

Uh, sure.

Well, today, she was
feeling a little down.

I think she expected that I
was gonna hang out with her,

and so I think
she needed, like...

I don't know, sometimes I feel
like I want my partner to want

me, but I don't wanna
feel like they need me.

Mm-hm.

And one thing I don't like
is what I call  "sexpectation."

Like, "Just because
you're my partner,

now I have access to your body."

And our sex life
was already, like,

struggling, and so now I'm
having sex with somebody else,

and then it felt like,

"Okay, well, you're
having sex with them,

so you need to be
having sex with me."

And then, I'm like,
"Ugh, if I'm not feeling it,

I'm not feeling it!"

And sometimes, I've felt like
you would never hear me,

and so then, now, we're having,

"Well, what is it?

Okay, well, is it this?
Is it that?"

And then, "Well, I don't
know, maybe we're incompatible."

"You're saying we're
sexually incompatible?"

And then now, it's like this
big thing that's just grown and

grown and grown and grown.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

I wanna take a pause on the
question that the two of you are

struggling with and ask a little
bit about your not feeling well.

Sure.

Uh, okay, physically, I
don't know what's going on.

I'm getting very frustrated.

I've had four to
five years of, like,

almost debilitating GI issues.

Like, I could only eat
eight ingredients for, like,

a year and a half.

[Orna] What were
the eight ingredients?

It was, like, white
rice, plain chicken,

Corn Flakes.

Everything else
made me really sick.

- [Orna] Mm-hm.
- And then, uh...

By the way, how were you as
a kid in terms of your gut

sensitivity?

I was fine, but I always had
a stomach ache any time...

Well, retrospectively,
any time I was anxious.

What was happening at home?

So we were living in the
West Bank for five years,

and the uprising
started in 2000,

so they started
bombing our cities and,

like, there were a
couple of times, like,

bombs fell near our
house and, like,

everything's
flying off the walls,

and a b*mb fell on my sibling's
school but it didn't detonate.

And after that, my
parents were like,

"We have to leave; it's not
worth our children's lives."

And so we left,
like, very quickly,

barely said bye to anybody.

And then we came back
here, and then 9/11 happened,

and all my classmates were
calling me a t*rror1st and

making jokes about me
bringing bombs to school.

They would ask me if I was
related to Osama Bin Laden...

And already, I was
struggling to make friends.

- One long trauma.
- [Christine] Yeah.

And then, my parents,
they were just really tense,

- and we had strict rules...
- Like, alarmist.

Yeah.

Especially me and my sister.

The women were treated very
differently than the men,

and my dad was like, "The only
time you will ever not do what I

say is if another man
tells you what to do."

And I was like,

- "No, thank you."
- "I'm g*y."

[both laugh]

[Christine]  "No, thanks."

Anyways, moral of
the story is...  sorry.

I just wanna note:

so you're obviously talking
about, like, extreme trauma.

[Nadine] Mm-hm.

And your voice is kind of...

flying over it.

- [Nadine] Mm-hm.
- [Christine] Mm-hm.

I d...  I don't wanna feel what it
would feel like to actually slow

down and...

I mean, I feel like
that's probably why...

I mean, retrospectively,
I think I was, like,

very, very depressed.

Like, I couldn't
even get up for school.

I wasn't doing anything
that brought me joy anymore.

And I was only nine.

- [Orna] Mm-hm.
- [sniffles]

And then, that got
worse because I feel like,

for immigrants...

the culture is frozen in time.

We couldn't even
say the word  "g*y."

I didn't even know I was g*y.

But you could... [sighs]

If you saw pictures of
me when I was little,

- I was, like, really g*y.
- Adorable.

And when we moved
here, my parents were like,

"We're gonna paint
your room pink."

And I'm, like, wearing
a sideways hat and, like,

boys' clothes.

I was like,  "Why?"

I feel like it was, like, an
attempt at conversion therapy,

but I'm still g*y...

"She's a girl!
She likes boys!"

[laughter]

I'm still g*y, I
just like pink now.

Yeah.

[Christine] Um, then my older
brother was outed and that was a

disaster, and I was like,
"I can't say anything."

So I stopped, uh,
talking about my feelings,

and then I didn't cry for,
like, maybe eight years.

I, like, wouldn't
show any emotion.

So I think a lot of the
h*m* in the household was

when a lot of my stomach
aches were starting to begin.

But, um...

And my IBS, like, resolved
almost completely right when I

met Nadine.

But now it's coming
back, and I'm scared.

[voice cracking] I
don't wanna do this again.

That was really traumatizing.
[sniffles]

Like, every time
we go out to eat,

I'm, like, so grateful just to
be able to share a meal with

someone.

I ate alone for
so long by myself.

I learned my lesson.

Like, I get it.

I need to be, like, in touch
with my body and I'm trying to,

but I don't know.

But I'm running out of tools.

- [Nadine] [softly] It's okay.
- [sniffles]

I mean, it sounds to me that
the way you've contained all of

these traumatic experiences and
your feelings about all these

things you're describing is...

by a mix of dissociating...

[Nadine] Mm-hm.

And thinking really hard.

- You're using your intellect.
- I'm trying to understand!

I don't know how
to just feel it.

Right, but understanding
the mind is working as a

- container...
- [Christine] Yeah, yeah.

The intellectual mind is
working as a container,

but it puts a lot of the work
of metabolizing on your gut.

[Christine] Yeah.

Which can't keep up.

- There's just too much.
- [Christine] And I can feel it.

I can't even finish my meals any
time we talk about things that

are stressful.

And I feel like, in
this relationship,

I've been kind of given an
ultimatum of either doing

polyamory or just breaking
up, and so I'm very confused.

I don't know how to
move forward anymore.

[inhales sharply]

chill funky music

[Orna VO]
Christine is Palestinian,

and Nadine, her
father is Lebanese.

They both came
from a lot of trauma,

and I do think that's part of
what is binding them together.

To find a person who
understands you can feel like

a potential new home
that they never had.

But they came in trying to
morph into a poly relationship,

and Christine, she's
having a hard time with it.

I have a question
for all of you:

when you see couples
who are poly...

Mm-hm.

For how many of
them does it work?

I've seen couples that start
as a couple and add someone,

and that sometimes really opens
something in the relationship in

really fantastic ways.

Yeah.

But it's always, uh, precarious.

My thing is that
one of them is...

actively feels terrible
in this relationship.

- Christine, right.
- [Kali] Yes.

- Throwing up, diarrhea.
- [Kali] Right.

[Nuar] Could she
work it through?

Or should she
listen to her body?

She's wanting to be something
that maybe she just can't.

I mean, people who go
through the transition to, like,

a new paradigm, they suffer.

- It's not easy.
- Right.

Chill funky music

[cheering]

[cheering]

[sighs]

This week has been really
heavy with rejection for me.

Mm.

'Cause I've been making a lot
of efforts to try to initiate,

both, like, sexual situations
and just intimate situations

with Natasha, and she's
rejecting me every single time.

It's just taking a lot out of
me to just keep trying and just

feeling so undesired.

I'm just trying to
figure out what'll work.

- Mm-hm.
- [Josh] You know?

- Yeah.
- [Josh] Like, I don't know!

'Cause my partner doesn't talk
to me about her preferences.

And I've asked!

But right now, ask.

What is your preference?

How would you like
me to initiate sex?

Josh has these moments
where his desire is driving the

- interaction.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.

When he comes onto me, I'm like,

"Yes,"  but I'm just not...

feeling aroused.

I don't want her
to jump on my bones,

I'm just talking about just
enjoying something, right?

I don't even feel liked.

I feel tolerated.

I feel like a pervert.

That's the energy
that I'm getting.

It makes me feel sometimes like,
"Am I...  is this intentional?

Are you trying to minimize me?"

Because I'm
starting to feel that way.

Like, my emotional
self is hunching.

And it's like...  it's not me.

My natural self is
confident, boisterous,

and it just feels like I'm
being f*cking suppressed!

Let's be real: as much
as I deal with rejection,

I'm handling it
pretty f*cking well.

I'm...  I'm frustrated, and then
I'm dealing with a partner who's

making me feel like my
frustration is oppressing them

or making them
feel bad themselves.

So now I have to
uproot my feelings,

forget about them, and
then worry about her.

And that happens
even in conversation.

So I just asked her,
"How do I initiate?"

- She didn't say anything!
- Mm-hm.

[Josh] She didn't
answer that question.

[Orna] But let's go back
to the original question.

First of all, you said that
the problem for you is that...

it's on Josh's ...  I don't know
what to call it ...  clock or...

Yeah, I mean, it feels
like I don't...  whether it be,

you know, my body, my
hormones, or whatever,

that feeling for me is
very few and far between.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

So I don't get to
experience or reciprocate that.

You don't get to
experience your own desire.

[Natasha] Yeah,
just spontaneous...

Right.

Like, "I would like
to have sex right now."

[Orna] Right.

And then being able to
direct that at my partner.

Right.

Even on our lonesome
time, where it's like,

- "Do you pleasure yourself?"
- [Orna] Right.

We'll have that sort of
thing, and it's like...

- no.
- [Orna] No.

- No.
- [Orna] Never?

Not never.

Extremely rarely.

I'm talking about, like, I just
physically don't have the desire

- - with him, without him.

Like, it's not him.

Either your libido is low or
you're disconnected from it.

[Natasha] Exactly.

Okay.

But I'm not rejecting him.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

It's just that I
feel like I'm...

Ooh, the word
"betraying"  feels bad,

but, like, I'm betraying myself.

What would be okay for
you to do together ...

As far as any
kind of intimacy ...

That wouldn't feel like it's...

an act of betrayal?

- Touching.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.

Making out.

That sort of thing.

I...  I don't...

Do you have any suggestions?

No.

Try.

I'm trying not to be
frustrated right now.

That's what I'm trying to do.

[Orna] Yeah.

[sighs]

I think part of what's
going on is you're so,

um...

overwhelmed by the feelings
that this is bringing up in you,

which I understand ...
Rejection, frustration,

and I guess some form of
humiliation or feeling bad about

yourself ...  that those feelings
get so overwhelming for you that

you're not actually grasping
what Natasha is saying about her

- experience.
- At this moment, no.

I'm not gonna lie
to you, I'm not.

Okay.

Well, I heard Natasha say
that her own libido feels very

elusive to her.

Yeah, okay.

[Orna] So that's part of
what you're meeting when you're

trying to engage her sexually.

Yeah.

What I'm asking the two of you
to think about is what area can

you meet at somewhat in the
middle between the two of you?

Can we take sex off the table?

I have no problem with that.

Okay.

- So...
- [Josh] It's not been an issue.

Let's agree to that.

And Natasha, your job is to
try to find some place within

yourself to initiate
from ...  initiate contact,

initiate conversation.

- Okay?
- [Natasha] Okay.

And let's see what happens.

[sighs]

moody funky music

[Orna VO] I don't think Josh
understands the degree to which

he overwhelms her.

[Virginia VO] Right, yeah.

[Orna VO] He's a
big personality,

big body, he's...
He's a presence.

And she feels very insecure.

[Virginia VO] Yeah.

[Orna VO] And she just
hangs her eyes at him.

She listens, she admires, and
then concludes that she's...

- [Virginia] Nowhere.
- Nowhere.

So there would be
history to that.

'Cause it didn't start with
him, even though he's very big.

Yeah.

[Virginia] So we have
to unpack that more.

Yeah.

So the next couple I wanna
talk about are Sean and Erica.

There's this, like, meta
narrative that if only she would

be more focused on the
good, everything would be okay.

She's trying to, like, box in
all these upset feelings that

are about, like,
very key issues.

[Virginia VO] Yeah.

She wants to be mystified.

[Orna VO] Yeah.

[Virginia VO] And you
want her to see the truth.

[Orna VO] Yeah.

[Sean VO] I
thoroughly enjoy my life.

I would love to spend
more time with her.

But every time I
come around you,

you're so...

either frustrated
or resentful or angry.

I think my resentment started
because we  "agreed"  that I would

go back to work after
our daughter was born,

and that he would be staying
at home and taking care of her.

But over the last
almost five years,

Sean has yet to be employed,

so I think that's
where my anger began.

Erica hasn't lost anywhere
near as much as I have lost.

Mm-hm.

[Sean] I have children from a
previous marriage that are much

older.

Their mother and I have
a very toxic situation.

[Orna] And how
often do you see them?

[Sean] I see them
during the summer.

[Orna] But not regularly.

[Sean] We live in
different states.

- That's terrible!
- [Sean] Yeah!

So my focus has not been that of
someone who is willing to put

my wife, my child, and
my other responsibilities

second in my priorities to
the pursuit of wealth and the

pursuit of financial gain,
because for me,

my time and the time that I
spend with my child and the time

that I spend with my wife
is more important to me than

working 70 hours
a week, as you do.

What's happening to you when
you're listening to Sean right

now?

My temperature is
actually going up.

- Actually.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.

Like, my palms are sweating,

- to be honest with you.
- [Orna] Yeah.

'Cause what's happening?

Well, there's probably a
bunch of stuff going on there.

I'm just disconnecting
with this conversation,

to be honest with you.

Try to locate what's happening
to you listening to Sean.

I feel frustrated and I
feel like he downplays...

the true sacrifices
that I have been making.

Sean, you see how
my parents live.

I come from sh*t!

So for me to have
come out of that,

I did have to put a lot of
energies and efforts towards

being successful.

So don't sit there
and downplay them!

Like, it's almost
like a pedestal.

Like, I hate his pedestal talk.

"I don't wanna put such an
emphasis on working or career

accomplishments because I
see the greater good in having

relationships with people."

But that doesn't pay
a motherfuckin' bill!

[Orna] Mm-hm.

[Erica] I've had to
work g*dd*mn hard, Sean.

g*dd*mn hard!

And I feel like he just...

He doesn't get it; he doesn't
get the level of sacrifice.

But yet, you know what he
pays me back from the sacrifice?

Oh, he has sex with
other women on me.

Like, I...  I don't
unders...  like, I am not winning.

I'm not winning.

[chuckles]

I'm the one that's
getting cheated on,

I'm the one that's not able to
forge long-term relationships.

sh*t, other side of COVID,
I wasn't even having a good

relationship with
my own daughter!

Mm-hm.

I beat myself up
'cause I deserve better,

- I want better.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.

Why doesn't Sean beat...  why
aren't you not beating yourself

up to be like, "Damn it,
I should be...  I should...

You know what?
I should vie for that job.

I am pissed off that I
didn't get that opportunity."

Like, I...

That's not true.

- Maybe I just want us both...
- [Orna] It's not true that...?

It's not true!

I just don't share it with her
because every loss that I have

had that I have shared with you,
you've told me all of the ways

that I messed up to
make that loss happen.

Who wants to hear that?

[Erica] It's a
criticism, not a critique.

[Sean] Who wants to hear that?!

I'm my own biggest critic; I
don't need your help in the

- criticism department.
- All right, listen...

- [Sean] I don't need it!
- We've totally run out of time.

- [Erica] [laughs]
- [Sean] Yeah.

[laughs]

We finally just got to
the good stuff for me.

[Orna] We did get to
some good stuff, yes.

Mm-hm.

I think I'm getting closer
to where the two of you really

live.

- [Erica] Okay.
- [Sean] Yeah.

- So that's good.
- [Erica] Okay.

So I'm gonna have to let you go,

and we will continue talking.
[chuckles]

I just come here and
realize how little you listen to

anything that I say, and the
fact that you feel like I don't

champion in your success...

We should go back to that.

I have some thoughts on that.

[Erica] Okay.

[chuckling] I want you
to champion yourself,

- that's the problem.
- I do champion myself,

you just don't hear me when I
say my priorities have been...

[Erica] I don't
think that you think...

Please remember this; we
should go back to that.

[Erica] Mm-hm.

- I...  I...
- Okay, thank you.

[Erica] Thank you.

I just don't feel like you...

[Sean] Your feelings don't
have sh*t to do with facts!

That's the problem!

You go with your feelings, and
your feelings are wrong a lot of

- the time.
- [Erica] Oh, man...

- [Sean] [mutters]
- [Erica] Hm?

[sighs]

dreamy synth music

Hey, Marjo!

[indistinct chatter]

[Brock VO] So, we live
in separate apartments.

[Orna VO] Oh!

[Kristi VO] We only
live a block apart.

We purposely got
apartments that were nearby...

- [Orna VO] Mm-hm.
- [Kristi VO] With that intent.

If we were even five
blocks away from each other,

we wouldn't really have
the flow that we have now,

which I really enjoy.

Well, I'd have to buy a vacuum.

- Oh yeah, we share the vacuum.
- I'd have to buy a vacuum.

[laughter]

When I first broached the idea,
I was really bothered by the

fact that I had
never had time alone.

I shared a room with my
sister all growing up,

who is eight years younger than
me, and then went to college,

met Brock two weeks into it, and
we were married the next June.

And so I was just like,

"What would it feel like to
just be in my own space?"

I feel like this is
an adult experience.

This is a normal
experience that, like,

people have?

And so...

Yeah, it sounds so
basic but... it's true.

[Orna] It doesn't; it
doesn't sound basic.

It's just like...

Sounds like you gave yourself
the opportunity to...

witness something that sometimes
gets kind of consumed by

"obviousness."

Yeah, yeah.

This was also in the
heat of the pandemic.

Let me see...

September 2020 is, like, when
we started thinking about this.

You know, we were in a
one-bedroom and everything that

the pandemic put on our living
situation was just exacerbated

to the next level, and
so when the time came...

How so?

What was going on
for the two of you?

- [laughs]
- [Kristi] What?

I mean, there
was a lot going on.

Tell me.

Summer 2020 was a
pretty profound summer,

for both for us.

Yeah.

That was the summer that
Brock decided that he was done

- going to church.
- In the beginning.

Can you say
something about that?

- About that summer?
- [Brock] Yeah, yeah.

When that happened,
like, that caused literally,

like, this weird
flood where, like,

I started to see
everything in color.

Everything was more vivid,
and I became so much more open.

Like, I had all these
incredible emotions

and incredible feelings of love
towards her and towards life

and just, like, this
really crazy awakening.

Yeah.

What's happening?

It just felt really good
to have that experience of,

like, falling in love with
you in a way that really felt,

like, earned.

Yeah.

But yeah, that summer was also,
like...  for lack of a better

term, like, it was
really radicalizing for me.

And of course, a lot of the
Black Lives Matter uprisings

that summer also, you know, put
that into hyperdrive as well,

and I felt myself
changing in real time.

It felt like the ground
underneath me was moving

and I wasn't even sure
who I was anymore.

And so, like, that in
conjunction with our

relationship was a
little unsettling for me.

How about you?
What did you...?

[sighs]

- [chuckles]
- [Kristi] What?

- Nothing, nothing.
- [laughs] What's that sigh mean?

I...  I just...

What is the problem right now?

I don't know what
to say right now.

Are you thinking about the
other thing that was roiling

- around that summer?
- Yes, and I don't...  yes.

And, like, I don't
know, 'cause it,

like...  it is...  it's, like,
a humongous thing, right?

And, like...

Ugh!

Because I don't know, uh...

Okay, let me restart.

- [laughing] Okay.
- I'm a little flustered.

- Mm-hm.
- [Kristi] Yes.

So...

everything was good.

Mm-hm.

And then,
everything went really bad.

[Orna] What happened?

[Brock] We both did really
shitty things to each other.

- Like, we...
- What did you do?

Kristi, 'cause you...

The only way it can be brought
up is if you bring it up,

because I'm not gonna...
I'm not gonna bring it up.

- The fact that I cheated on you.
- Yes!

- That.
- Okay.

[Kristi] Yeah.

[sighing] Okay.

[laughing] How do you feel?

I...  I feel so much better.

[laughing] Okay.

My feet were hurting
tap-dancing for so long around

that point!

But yeah, things...
The summer was great,

and then the
summer was not great.

So...  so what happened?

- [Brock] [sighs]
- [Kristi] So... [sighs]

We had a mutual friend that
we were both close with ...

A guy ...

And...

at around the same time
that I left the church,

this mutual friend
left the church too.

And I didn't have Brock to talk
with about a lot of what that

meant and entailed,

and I think Brock always
felt that as a threat.

Yeah, I mean, even during


opening the
marriage, and it was like,

"Okay, like, look, like...

I understand that you want to
explore these things, right?

Let's talk about it.

I'd be open to it.

I would be interested in it.

But this guy ...  it
can't be this guy."

And so, the one guy that
couldn't be is the only guy

that...

[softly] could be.