[Josh VO] Today was
a really good day.
[Orna VO] Tell me.
So...
we had sex today, before
coming to this session.
- [Orna] Wonderful!
- And...
she was open to it, and
that made me feel happy.
Mm-hm.
It didn't
matter, you know, like,
what the mechanics were
of whatever it was...
[Orna] Yeah.
It was just that she
was like, "All right."
- [chuckles] You know?
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
And for me, I was
like, "All right!
- Let's give it a go!"
- [laughs]
We just-- we take our
"All rights," right?
Yeah!
No, and--
But that's part of what
we've been talking about.
- [Natasha] Yeah.
- [Josh] Exactly, yeah, yeah.
Kind of expand
the idea of, like,
- what sexuality is.
- Yeah.
[Orna] That it can
be lots of things,
and willingness is plenty.
[Natasha] Yeah.
It was so nice to, like...
have sex, and then
afterwards, we were like,
"Great job!"
And then, like, we were talking
about, like, other things.
- Like, normally--
- Yeah, part of life.
[Natasha] Exactly.
I feel like that was like, um...
a new chapter, right?
- [Orna] For the two of you.
- Yeah.
Because it was
like, "Oh my God, like,
this can happen."
Check us out, Orna.
[Natasha and Orna laugh]
cool theme music
[Nadine VO] We took, like,
a whole week apart of, like,
- no talking, no nothing...
- [Orna VO] Uh-huh.
Yeah, and then
when we did reconvene,
um, I kind of
exploded about something,
and I think it was
just a culmination--
[Orna] What do you
mean "something?"
[Nadine] So when
we were together--
Mm-hm.
[Nadine] If she would
go on a date or whatever,
it didn't bother me as much.
But now that we're not together,
when she does those things,
now I'm feeling jealous...
and just, like--
yeah, just, like, not...
positive.
- Like, it didn't feel good.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
So I got really
upset, and, like,
all my emotions
came out, and then...
And what's that doing to you?
I'm getting frustrated, because
I feel like Nadine is doing
whatever she wants
with her person...
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
- We are broken up...
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
- I am not obliged to tell you
anything about what
I'm doing in my personal life...
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
- And I get very frustrated
that now, all of the sudden,
I'm the liar, I'm this,
I'm that, and I'm like, "I was
very clear with you about my
feelings for this person
during our relationship..."
She told me she was in
love with this person.
Yeah, um, but--
That you were in love with
this person -- I'm sorry --
- during your relationship?
- [Nadine] Mm-hm.
[Christine] Yes.
So I told Nadine a
few months ago...
[Orna] Uh-huh.
When me and Nadine
were in a relationship --
- Prior to us--
- Prior to the breakup --
that I had feelings
for this person.
Yeah.
[Christine] But they were
in a monogamous relationship.
Yeah.
And so they had a
breakup at the same time...
- Convenient.
- So now--
[Orna] What are you saying?
Convenient.
[laughs]
[Christine] How is it different
from me watching you want to
date someone else?
It's not that different!
- So--
- From what to what?
- What you were doing...
- Yeah.
And what I'm doing
is not that different!
- I agree!
- So feel your feelings, girl!
I've been feeling them
for a year and a half!
Like, I feel, especially when
the other person came into the
picture on November 5th --
I know exactly the day
- that you met...
- [chuckles] Oh my God...
I feel like you got
checked out of our relationship,
and that was the end of it,
and I had to watch you...
Yeah.
Leave, basically.
- Yeah.
- [sniffles]
So that's the difference.
Yeah, and I'm not,
like, dating that person.
Babe, you told them
you're in love with them.
So let's...
pause there, because
you're both, like,
gravitating towards
litigating some case in which
the other person
has wronged you.
I think it's the build up
of resentment, I wonder.
[Orna] But resentment is--
Sadness!
I'm so sad!
But resentment is not sadness.
Sadness is
different from resentment.
- [Orna] Yes.
- Okay.
[Orna] Resentment comes
when you feel like you've been
wronged.
In some ways, yeah!
I mean, we made a
commitment to each other.
Yes, we're doing this
new relationship dynamic,
but you are my home!
- You're my rock.
- Mm.
Like...
[voice wavering] But I felt like
you left and you didn't come
back.
That's what I'm upset about!
And then you want
me in your life,
and you're FaceTiming
me, and you're being very,
like...
making sexual advances,
and it's confusing for me!
[sniffles]
I hear what you're saying,
and I wanna say I'm sorry.
I wasn't, like,
actively trying to,
like...
curate this plan and,
like, trick you,
and do all of those things.
I was not trying
to do that at all.
If anything, I was--
[Orna] Meaning the
narrative that you were lying--
That I'm, like, actively
lying and, like--
That narrative is a
misunderstanding of you?
[Nadine] In many ways,
I see her lens of, like,
how you're saying
that that happened.
What I'm trying to
say is, if anything,
I was so in love with you,
I was suffocated by
the relationship,
I didn't know how
to get to say that,
and so what I
could search for was,
"Okay, let's
change the structure,"
and changing the structure by
means wasn't a way to exit the
relationship, it was trying to
alleviate some of my anxieties,
pains, stress, feeling
suffocation -- those things.
It wasn't like I
was trying to, like,
"Okay, I'm gonna do this and
then she'll break up with me."
It wasn't like that at all.
And I'm so sorry that this
whole thing happened this way.
I'm so sorry.
I swear, from the bottom
of my heart, I'm not--
- Hold on.
- [Nadine] Trying to...
- Do you understand that?
- [Christine] Yeah.
- Does that make sense to you?
- [Christine] Yeah.
[Orna] If you just
stayed with that narrative...
Mm-hm.
That Nadine didn't lie to
you, she was...struggling,
what feelings then
are you left with?
- [softly] Just sadness, then.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
Say more.
Um...
I feel like...
uh, there's so much love
here, there's still so much love
- here...
- [Nadine] Mm-hm.
[sniffles] And I did, like...
When I first met you, you
really took my breath away...
- [Nadine] Mm.
- As cliché as that sounds.
Like, I feel like
I already knew you.
And I remember texting
you after our first date.
I was like, "I feel like I
was talking to an old friend."
Mm-hm.
[sighs] [voice wavering]
Yeah, I'm sad!
I'm really sad.
You came into my life
at such, like, a...
chaotic time, when I
felt very hopeless,
and you...
were...
like, my mother, my
friend, my lover,
my family, my care--
like, you were everything.
[sniffles] And so, like...
it feels more than just like,
like, losing a partner.
It feels like...
a home or, like, s--
like something bigger.
So...
[softly] yeah.
- [sniffles] I love you.
- I love you too.
[both sniffle]
bittersweet music
[kiss]
Oh, there she is.
I didn't see you.
[Orna] So I wanna talk
about Sean and Erica.
[Virginia] Yeah!
Okay.
What I can see around
the affairs with Sean,
he cannot tolerate...
being in the place where he
can take responsibility--
- Yeah.
- [Orna] For the pain he caused.
Yeah.
But he was able to describe
why being in that place...
is 100 percent an association to
being the same dyslexic f*ck-up
he's always been.
[Virginia] Right.
In his mind, this is a f*ck-up,
just like he was always a
f*ck-up with his mother, who
saw him always as a f*ck-up,
and even though he could
try to improve himself,
he was never adequate.
Yeah.
I could see on his
face he became this boy.
Uh-huh.
And I can feel empathy for him,
and she can feel empathy for
- him.
- [Virginia VO] Yes.
[Orna VO] So it's so much
easier to work with him.
Hi!
- Hi!
- [Erica] How are you doing?
I'm-- I'm good, I'm--
I'm really in a good place.
[Orna VO] Mm-hm.
[Erica] Uh, Mother's
Day was good.
Didn't do anything,
which is wonderful for me.
And I-- Sean organized--
reorganized the bathroom,
straightened it up.
I was like, "Oh my
gosh, I love it so much!
It's so nice!"
And I felt that the clutter
had been lifted and gone,
and the grit and the grime!
I've been just, like,
loving it ever since.
Wow!
Mind you, I did
show him a video...
about being taxed
and being over...
burdened, that was sent to
me by a girlfriend of mine.
Maybe that's what
clicked for him too,
and literally...
It's funny, 'cause
I saw the video...
It's almost like when
I saw it, I was like,
"I really think that she's
sending this video to you to
express all the things
that I already do."
Say that again?
[Sean] Like, the activities
that are in the video--
Yeah.
Are more things that I do than
they are things that Erica does,
- so it's like...
- [Orna] Uh-huh.
I got the sentiment
that she was giving me--
Are you f*ck' serious?
That's absolutely
so-- [chuckles]
Do you do the laundry?
Do you do all of those
things that are in the video?
Oh, my-- Sean, I mean, you're
taking the symbolism of the
situation way too deep
and applying it you.
Brother, you just,
like, totally just...
shat on the whole message.
I didn't...poop-- I'm not
pooping on the message.
Like, I got the
message, I'm just saying--
Well, what just happened?
What do you think just happened?
- I, uh--
- [Erica] [laughs]
- From-- from my understanding...
- [laughs]
Because I applied what I
saw in the video to me...
[Orna] Mm-hm.
That I somehow am
taking from her.
[Orna] Right.
And I'm saying I'm not
trying to take from you,
I'm just saying
the activities--
[Orna] But you just did.
What motivated you
[chuckling] to you do that?
'Cause that kind of ruins it.
[laughing] Right, all the way.
Uh...
it-- the activities were
just more relatable to...
my day-to-day.
How do you feel about the
fact that Erica doesn't fully
participate in some of these...?
For me, it's more the...
You ask for help a lot.
And I give you a lot of help.
But I get treated as though I
don't help you with anything.
I feel like I'm just seen
as somebody who's lacking.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
Can I ask,
how does this repeat in your
family-of-origin situation?
In my household, my
experience as a child,
all the way up
until my mom got sick,
was that she was
hardly ever there.
You know, it wasn't like we
sat at the dinner table and had
- dinner as a family.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
My mom rarely
ever made it home...
- at dinner time.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
So I think my parents,
they existed in two
totally different worlds,
and for my dad, his
world revolved around his
friends and his family, and my
mom's world revolved around her
career.
And my mother, I
guess in a lot of ways,
looked at him and was like,
"Why don't you want more?"
And he -- like me --
was like, "I'm happy.
So what do I need more for?
I'm already happy,"
whereas my mom...
Was more ambitious?
[Sean] There was always
another level to achieve.
Mm-hm.
I feel like you're
describing, like, me and you,
for some odd reason.
- We marry our parents.
- It's kinda scary a little bit.
- It is us!
- [Orna] Tell me?
Literally.
I kinda almost
get lost thinking,
"Are you talking about your mom
or are you talking about me?"
I mean, the reality is my
parents met when they were in
their 20s.
My dad became a carpenter.
My mother
initially was a teacher.
She decided that
career wasn't enough,
- decided to go to law school...
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
When she was
pregnant with me,
and then became an attorney,
and then became a partner,
and then kept climbing,
- and then she died.
- Mm-hm.
So, like, I loved my mother,
and gave her everything that I
had to give her as her child,
and it still
resulted in her death
and her absence from my life.
I have four children.
[voice wavering] They
will never know my mother.
It wasn't more important to her
to get well and be present than
it was to work.
- And I watch you pick work...
- Mm-hm.
As though your job
gives two shits--
- They don't.
- About what happens to you.
That's the disconnect for me;
I will never understand that.
But you're carrying so much...
sorrow.
I'll-- I'll never understand
people who choose things that
will never...!
Nobody remembers
you for your work.
My mom was a
partner at the law firm.
I could walk into
that office right now,
and even though my last name is
on the wall and there's a plaque
of my mom up there, I could walk
in and nobody would know who I
- am.
- [Erica] Mm-hm.
[Sean] Knowing
that my children--
- But can I say something?
- [Sean] Mm-hm.
So Sean, in addition to these
thoughts about what's important
- in life...
- Mm-hm.
I think what you're also
telling Erica is that you are
full of sorrow...
Mm-hm.
From what
happened, from your...
the remains of
how your mom lived.
[Erica] Mm-hm.
[Sean] Mm-hm.
How are
you...listening to that?
Well, it makes
me upset for him.
Mm-hm.
But on the flip side,
I don't know how to...
uh, qualify, I guess...
personal success?
With work, it's easy!
It's-- it's on a piece of paper!
It's on a paycheck!
I just don't know
how to attach it...
[Orna] Mm-hm.
To-- to the family
dynamic, I guess.
You know, there's something
interesting that happens
- psychologically...
- [Sean] Mm-hm.
With people.
People tend to
repeat their histories,
- right?
- Mm-hm.
You live it as a child, and
then you have your life as an
adult, and you
unconsciously set out to repeat.
[Erica] Mm-hm.
And Sean, it might be that
your expectation was
always that you were gonna find
yourself again in a
similar situation,
where your wife
is gonna get busy,
- maybe you even chose someone...
- [Erica] Mm-hm.
Who is prone to go
in that direction,
and, in a way, repeat the same
thing you had with your mom.
Mm-hm.
But it also could be that,
with that expectation, you...
took over all the domestic
paternal responsibilities,
unconsciously kind of already
setting the stage for that to
happen.
[softly] Yeah.
You might need to kind of take
an angle against just repetition
and try to break the cycle.
- Mm-hm.
- Mm-hm.
[Orna] Both of you.
Mm-hm.
uplifting mellow music
[Erica] That was a really
good session, babe.
- [Sean] It was.
- [Erica] Thank you.
- [Sean] Thank you.
- [Erica] That was very...
- eye-opening.
- Yeah, no,
I'm sorry for how I...
misspoke what I was
trying to express...
about the video.
[Kristi VO] Um...
- [both laugh]
- I guess I'll kinda start.
- Yeah.
- [indistinct].
Yeah.
[Kristi] It was a
hard day for me.
[Brock] Yeah, really hard day.
Just feeling, like...
hopeless about our future,
hopeless about, like,
where we can meet...
It was hard to hear you say...
that, like, you're
still so angry at me...
when, like, you know
everything [sighs] about me.
And it just feels like none
of that means anything to you.
What would it--
what would it sound like if it
did mean something to Brock?
I feel like if
Brock understood me,
you wouldn't be
saying things like,
"I just need you to promise that
that will never happen again."
Like, "I need you to, like...
make that covenant," really.
- But if Brock is saying...
- [Kristi] [sighs]
"I don't feel safe when I
ask you to not hurt me
and you do that...
I can't trust you
that you won't hurt me,"
what are you doing
with that information?
I hear that as Brock wanting to
return to the systems and things
that have given him comfort:
a world in which men
control women...
[Orna] Mm-hm.
And I have subverted that
order and it makes him scared,
and so instead of
transcending that,
he wants to revert back.
That's possible.
I don't know if
that's Brock's experience.
- Is that?
- No.
Especially 'cause, like,
I asked you to talk about--
talk about opening the marriage.
- Like--
- Yeah, but not for me.
That's because you wanted to
assuage your own anxieties
'cause I wouldn't
give you that promise!
Like, I feel like Brock's
suggestion of that is trying to
shortcut, uh, some deeper
healing that I think we--
- that needs to happen.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
And also, that
feels unproductive.
I'm not going to do it.
[sighs]
[Orna] Okay, I'm
registering what you're saying.
Can you articulate
what matters to you?
Yeah.
I just want to know
that in this partnership,
that we're committed to
not hurting each other!
And I refuse to commit to
that because that's not what a
partnership-- that's--
But then that's not a
partnership I wanna be in!
Okay, fine!
Then you want a
partnership that doesn't exist!
You want a mirage!
How-- what are
you-- [chuckles] like,
you don't-- okay, you don't
want to open the relationship,
and yet, you don't
wanna commit to me,
and that makes me anxious!
Because I'm
trying to be honest!
I'm trying to be honest!
- I'm trying--
- [Brock] [groans]
I'm trying to
move towards a new...
- But--
- Way of thinking about
partnership with you!
[Brock] What does your new
version of the partnership look
like?
You keep talking about
transcending to something else.
What is it?
[sighs]
It's fluid!
[Brock] Okay!
"Fluid," to me, means open!
That is...
not what-- [groans]
[Brock] But Kristi, what
does "fluid" mean to you?!
"Fluid" means that you...
accept...
risk, that you are...
okay with a love
that could hurt you!
[Brock] But, like...
It's real!
[laughs]
[Brock] I know!
But that-- the-- the risk
- is after the commitment!
- What?!
Without the
commitment, there's no--
You're talking about
relationships like they're a
math formula!
Like-- [groans]
Kristi, can I ask you
to let go of contempt?
[Kristi] [sighs]
[whispering] Yeah.
And try to actually
have a conversation?
[Kristi] [sighs]
[Orna] You need to
show up for this.
The two of you are
having a real issue!
I mean, you're hoping that the
resolution will come from Brock
understanding you.
- But there are two people here.
- [sighs]
[sniffles]
You have to extend the
same degree of understanding.
[scoffs] I know, Orna.
Like, I have!
- I really feel like I have!
- [Orna] Well, I need to see it.
- I need to see it.
- [sighs]
[Orna] So I can
understand what's the impasse.
What do you hear Brock saying?
[sighs] I'm hearing from you
that it's not possible to cheat
in an open relationship,
which is not true.
- That's not--
- [Orna] No, but you're--
- Okay.
- [Orna] Sorry.
Relieve yourself of your own
[chuckling] opinions...
- for a minute!
- [Kristi] [sighs]
And just try to understand!
What is Brock saying?
It's like he's asking for
something that he already has!
[Orna] Which is?
A commitment to not hurt him.
I love him!
You-- I actively try not to
hurt the people that I love!
It doesn't mean that,
like, I won't do it!
But, like, you
already have that from me!
That's what love is!
I don't know what more you want!
[Orna] Can you respond to that?
Just...
a commitment that we're not
gonna cheat on each other!
[Kristi] [sighs]
What is the cost to you...
Say it in full terms.
What is the cost
to you of saying,
"I will not do that again?"
Just the pain of everything...
that this has been to us...
to reduce it to that, to
think that that is the out...
[Orna] Mm-hm.
[Kristi] Is to just promise
it'll never happen again.
Mm-hm.
The cost is the pain!
And that pain was really
worth something to me.
It was worth something
to me too, Kis.
Say what you mean by that.
- What I learned from it...
- [sniffles]
Was that we can
recommit to each other,
and we can-- we can
stretch our marriage
to the needs of
ourselves as partners!
But we work together
- to do that!
- [sighs]
Like, we don't
just decide one night,
"You know what?
f*ck it, I need
this, I'm taking it."
Like, that's not how
I view commitment!
All I hear when you talk...
is my grandpa's voice.
'Cause that was the
one thing that he said!
Do you remember?!
We sat on the couch,
and he was going to marry us.
He said, "That's
the number-one thing.
That's the most
important thing...
is commitment!"
Not love, not
compassion, not forgiveness!
- Right.
- Commitment!
That is not the most
important thing to me!
- It-- it's--
- And it's the old ways!
To me.
To me, that's the old ways!
Okay, then let's
open the relationship!
No!
[sighs]
[laughing] What
the f-- what the f--!
Uh, n-- [chuckles]
- [Brock] [laughs]
- [Kristi] Unbelievable.
Brock, can you, um...
Sorry.
- I do--
- [Orna] Use--
No, I think what you
might wanna try...
- [sighs]
- Is use a different language.
[Brock] [sighs]
My concerns are...
I don't want to be...
blindsided...
like that again.
I-- I can't!
And if that is hanging over me,
I won't be able to...
fully be with you.
[sniffles]
Well, I won't make
you that promise again,
so...
I guess we're open and
you can do what you want.
[sighs]
[Kristi] I won't
make that promise.
Okay.
That's fine.
[whispering] So go
do what you want.
What-- what does that resolve?
That resolves for you, Brock...?
[Brock] I don't
know what it resolves.
The reason that I wanted an open
marriage is because she's not
- going to commit to me...
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
So I am not-- I am not
going to promise to her!
Right, that's what
it sounds like --
that it's some kind of...
I don't know, secondary deal.
[Brock] Kind of.
[Orna] That none of
you will be happy with.
Probably.
It's a great win, isn't it?
[Orna] Uh-huh.
[Brock] [sighs]
You know, this
dilemma between...
the need for predictability
and safety -- that you're each
expressing in your own way --
and the need for some kind
of freedom is always there--
- [Brock] Yeah.
- In a relationship.
And there's some way that your
histories and the way the church
lives there that is
making it very difficult
to sit in a place where you're
each owning both sides of it.
It gets repeatedly split
between the two of you.
And I feel like
I get put, like--
I get put in the
box of the church--
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
- In the box of patriarchy,
in the box of family.
Like, I become the
stand-in for all of that,
so, like, my opinions, it's
almost like when they travel to
her, they pick up all of this
historical trash along the way
- to get to her ear...
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
And then it's not
about me anymore,
- now it's about broader things.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
And you?
What, then, gets
put all into you?
Fear about losing ground
that I've fought so hard...
to claim.
And so I'm just
on a high alert...
for being
manipulated back into that.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
- [Kristi] [sniffles]
I don't think I've ever been
able to trust the things that I
love.
[whispering] So...
mellow crooner music
[sniffles]
[whispering] Thank you.
[Kristi] [whispering]
Thank you, see ya.
You and I were meant
For each other
You and I need
Each other
We know no other
Will ever do
You and I belong
To each other
The kiss we
share is shared
By no other
And day
After day
We'll always
feel this way
For you and I
Have found love
You and I belong
To each other...
Welcome to our World! Where we serve you cookies to ensure you get the best viewing experience on our site.
Did you know that you can remove censorship board-wide, use our advanced search functions, be notified when new content is posted, join our memberships, set episodes to show in any order you want & more if you are logged into your account?
Register or sign in here: ucp.php?mode=register
Did you know that you can remove censorship board-wide, use our advanced search functions, be notified when new content is posted, join our memberships, set episodes to show in any order you want & more if you are logged into your account?
Register or sign in here: ucp.php?mode=register