05x02 - Episode 2

[bunniefuu]

[Chris] I betrayed her,

and I have sort of a...

A theory about why I did it.

In order for you to understand, though,

you'd have to know more about my childhood.

-Yeah. Obviously. -[Chris] Yeah.

Because there's a lot of that tied into this.

I didn't want to ask you about it immediately.

I wanted us to spend some time together before...

[Chris] Oh, I'm very open.

I can dive right in if you want.

-[laughs] -I'm sure you are very open,

but the question is,

what does it do to you to just dive right in?

I'm just realizing how scared it makes me.

-[Orna] Yeah. -For example,

after my mom passed away,

um, I had a nightmare

that she was still alive

and she was coming for me almost every night

-for the next two years. -Wow.

-There's a lot there, clearly. -[Orna] Yeah.

It's interesting because I'm looking at you

and what I can-- Just physiologically,

like, you got very red.

I know. I feel like I'm going to sweat.

Yeah, there's a change that happened with you,

and you're holding your breath and...

Yeah.

...your whole-- Everything.

Your veins are popping.

[Chris] Yeah.

You're having a lot of feelings.

Yeah. Like, I'm having a physical reaction to this.

Maybe that's why I want to talk about it,

because I want to exorcise it.

Maybe if I speak it, I can just purge myself of the--

You probably speak it to exactly the opposite of purge it out,

but to dissociate.

Oh.

To make it sort of like...

-Like it's not you. -[Chris] Yeah.

Yeah.

Oof!

[Orna] Slow down.

♪ funky pop music playing ♪

♪ gentle piano music playing ♪

[Orna]He wanted to tell me about his childhood.

-[Virginia]Yeah. -[Orna]He did say a lot of it,

I'm sure, has to do with my mother.

But I just felt I need to know

how to bring him into the present,

and I don't know him enough.

[Virginia]No, I agree with you that it would be too soon

because it would be too easy, therefore it wouldn't be right.

[Orna]And nothing would happen from it.

But I'm gonna go back to it

a little bit later.

They came in with a recent discovery

that he has had multiple

paid cuddling sessions.

Do you know about this? It's a thing.

No, I did not know there was such a thing.

Oh.

A couple of these

evolved into more,

into sexual relations.

When he talks about these cuddling affairs,

he talks about it in this very split apart way.

Like, "I don't know why I did it.

I love her. I don't know how I could do it to my family."

Why? Why? Why? I love this woman, and yet...

The drawing a blank about something

this enormous is unconvincing.

But then around the next corner

would be a lot of the reasons why.

[Orna] Do you want to tell me something about the betrayals?

Like, what's the background story there?

I think I was trying to create a situation

where I could be close to someone

and do cuddling

and make it so that they liked me.

Like, they thought I was a good person.

They thought I was interesting.

They were attracted to me just by sheer force

of just being present and being just there.

I think I just was trying to have something for me

and explore different people in ways of being intimate,

um, and I just didn't want to tell Sienna

because I was scared.

[Orna] Mm-hmm.

Are you... How are you doing, Sienna?

I saw pictures of all the girls that he cuddled with.

You know, it wasn't like he was just trying

to cuddle somebody nice or just be cozy.

-They were all young, hot... -Yes.

...big-breasted women

that were from, like, to ,

you know, which is hard for me because I'm .

I am not, you know, fecund anymore.

I feel this sense of oldness, I guess?

Yeah.

[Sienna] Which I feel good about myself.

And then this really turned that upside down.

I wouldn't cuddle with someone that I wasn't attracted to,

and they generally were on the younger side.

It's a sexual activity, whether...

-[Chris] Yeah. -...on a spectrum.

I didn't go into it thinking consciously, at least,

like I want to engage in a sexual thing with this person.

That's not what was driving it.

But when it went in that direction or was offered,

like, I...

I was like, "All right."

[scoffs]

It feels like you were able

to put a lot of common sense aside

in order to fulfill this.

Yes.

And that is really concerning to me.

Yeah.

What would the common sense say?

You have a wife who is

open as a pair of French doors.

-Like, you can... -[laughs] Nice.

...we can do anything

and you can ask for it and you can have it.

One of the ways I was able to make myself okay doing it

is I thought, you know, if she knew,

she probably would say, "No problem."

But a part of me was like,

but there's a possibility this could create a whole thing.

Her getting upset really messes with me.

It's just like this unbearable anxiety and fear,

not because of her but because of me.

Any thoughts here, Sienna?

[Sienna] Yes.

He has in the past,

throughout our marriage,

had times where he's been very aggressive

when he gets overwhelmed with emotions, I guess,

when the shark eyes can't contain whatever...

My disassociation no longer works, and I've got to attack.

Yeah. I learned to quiet myself

and to make myself smaller,

to not awaken the beast.

And so I feel a lot of sadness for those years.

Talk about it.

I feel a lot of...

resentment because I feel like you did me wrong.

You did me dirty.

I feel like you changed me into your worst nightmare.

Either by your perception or by diminishing me.

Yeah.

See, and I'm...

Like, you f*cking as*h*le.

I deserve to have years with somebody who was...

nice.

And I think,

what if I had left at year two?

-Yeah. -Or year five?

Or year eight?

Or year and a half?

And then I wonder, "Well, why didn't I leave?"

♪ funky ambient music ♪

[Shay] We haven't spoken in four days.

Today's the first day we have seen each other.

Okay.

What happened?

[yawns]

We had a massive argument on Friday.

And...

Hold on one second.

Clinton, where are you?

I don't want to talk about it.

-You don't want to talk--? -I'm f*cking tired

of you bringing that sh*t up.

I told you I was going to pay you.

[Clinton sighs]

I'm sorry.

But how are you feeling sitting here?

[Clinton] I'm angry.

I'm frustrated.

I'm anxious. I'm nervous.

-[Orna] Mm-hmm. -Like...

all the feelings.

Well, what do you each need

to enter a certain kind of listening mode?

Maybe a drink of water.

-[Orna] Water? That's good. -Yeah.

So is it okay for Shay to continue?

[Clinton] Yeah! Yeah, yeah.

Do you think you can turn a little bit in her direction?

Yeah, sure.

In our relationship,

Clinton has had some issues with finances.

I have tried to show him

how to take care of this in a better format.

I paid off all of his credit cards to start fresh.

-[Orna] Mm-hmm. -We were developing

in our relationship heavily,

and we wanted to eventually move in together.

And so this was a goal to do that.

Pause. What's... What are you thinking?

[Clinton] She's missing so many parts of that story.

I paid back half of that that I borrowed,

and then I had literally lost my job maybe a month after that.

I really wanted to take care of it on my own.

Afterwards, he re-racked the cards.

He re-racked them all back up.

It didn't stop there.

We needed to get him a new bed

because he wanted me to come over more often,

but I can't sleep on a twin.

I'm too big of a person.

So if you want to pay me back for the bed,

-you can put it on my account. -Yeah.

And in that moment,

he took it upon himself

to buy a -inch TV

and to buy a video game for $.

That-- No-- Yeah, and--

All on my credit. Without asking me.

And then she-- And we talked about it.

That's the sh*t that bothers me.

She came to me and was upset about it,

and we talked, and I said, "I'm sorry."

We're gonna move in together. Like, you know what?

I'm buying it for us so we have another TV.

That's the thought process I had.

-[Orna] Okay. So-- -You know what I mean?

I know that it wasn't okay.

But hold on, Clinton.

What do you imagine?

I know she felt mad and... and she felt--

[Orna] So why not make some room for that?

[sighs]

Because I'm not allowed to express myself.

No! You're...

No!

[groaning]

[sniffles and whimpers]

What's the issue, Clinton?

[Clinton] I don't know!

I'm really overwhelmed, okay?

Can I guess?

Yeah. Okay.

-[Orna] Is that helpful? -Yeah.

Does it make you feel incompetent?

Does it make you feel shame?

Yes.

I don't have the words all the time...

[Orna] Mm-hmm.

...but it feels like I'm constantly

being looked down upon.

Like I can't take care of things.

[Orna] Mm-hmm.

Can I interrupt you?

[Clinton] Yeah.

I want to help you make room

to listen to Shay without getting,

you know, triggered about it.

All she's talking about is her feelings.

Yeah.

It doesn't immediately, immediately mean...

that you've totally failed.

[inhales sharply]

It's just her feelings.

Yeah, I know.

[Orna] And actually, you can make things better

just by listening well.

That's a lot.

Sorry.

Keep going, Shay.

So he misses the payments, and then I have to cover them.

So he's just adding more to this total he owes me.

And-- Because I am an actions person, not a words person.

I need you to do to make me feel loved.

If you're measuring,

looking at those actions as signs of love

and you're exactly landing on where

Clinton has trouble...

how's that going to work?

It wasn't always like this.

-That's the-- That's-- -Please answer her question!

-Please! -Hold on a second.

What are you upset about?

He's starting to have a meltdown.

[crying]

So take your time.

Can I just say something, Clinton?

Everyone has trouble with this.

It's called being in a relationship.

Okay.

People frustrate each other

and get mad and hurt.

I don't really like disappointing Shay.

-I love her-- -You don't like what?

Disappointing Shay. I love her so much.

[Orna] Right, but when you disappoint her,

there's got to be a way for her to say that to you.

-That will do a lot. -Yeah.

I mean, if she just told me straight up,

"Hey, I'm disappointed because..."

[Orna] "Because you didn't pay me back."

Yeah, or I'm disappointed 'cause you didn't do things

you said you was gonna do.

[Orna] Yeah.

And I'm like, "Oh, my bad."

Thank you. I appreciate you, baby.

You're welcome.

I think I don't have a space

to emotionally share when I'm upset

or when I'm frustrated or when I'm disappointed.

Just no one talks about what it's like

being on the opposite side

of, like, dating a neurodivergent person.

I have heard her and what she is saying,

and I want to do everything I can to alleviate that.

Do you want a hug?

Are you feeling like one? If not, then that's okay.

No, if you're not feeling like it, it's okay.

It's fine.

Oh.

[Orna]Clinton is diagnosed with autism,

and I wanted to speak with someone

who specializes in autism

to see if I'm missing out on something

or some ways to understand or think deeper

into his experience.

And then in particular about meltdowns.

When you're autistic, sometimes it's not understood.

Like, what happened? We're talking about something,

and suddenly you're having a meltdown. Why?

When you're autistic,

there can be hidden triggers to the meltdown

that neurotypicals don't see.

It's an overwhelm leading to very intense emotions

that cannot be managed, cannot be controlled.

The meltdown is in response to not being understood,

which happens all the time.

So then there's sort of the repeated frustration

of whatever's going on with you, nobody gets,

you can't explain it clearly,

and there's something wrong with you.

-You're bad. -Yeah.

And that's the feeling that I see Clinton

reacting to the most in his meltdowns.

Also, his hidden trigger, I think,

is the trauma that he went through.

Because there's more bullying, ostracization.

So it's this tremendous aloneness, I think,

that makes things very traumatic for autistic people,

and I definitely see that in Clinton.

He responds so well to you explaining.

-[Orna] Mm-hmm. -He often calms down.

So I think I would want to slow things down,

not let him get to... Like, once he's in it--

You can't have couples therapy with meltdowns, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[door closes]

[Marjorie] Hi. Oh, yes, I got kisses.

I knew it. I knew she'd love me.

-[Orna laughs] -Yes.

That's 'cause I love animals better than people.

-Do you smell our baby? -How about you?

Do you like animals more than people?

I don't know about that, but I like animals.

But Marjorie has shoved so many animals down my throat

over the last couple of years.

I mean, sometimes we have seven,

eight animals in the house at once.

That's not even true. Our highest census was seven.

And what do we have now? Six.

-No. -That's a lot.

We have three cats and three dogs.

Yes, we do.

There's a couple of things in the house

that is very important to me.

My bed, my sleep space.

Well, I can't have that there

because the animals are on the bed.

Dog's licking herself on my bed, put a big wet spot.

-[laughs] -So we have a split king, right?

I got so frustrated that I'm gonna take my bed off the--

And put it in the closet until I'm ready to sleep.

-So f*cking dramatic. -And then I will deploy it again

to ensure that the bed is in the same condition...

-That's a good idea. -...that I left.

It's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

I know you're a doctor and I don't want to disrespect you,

but that's the dumbest thing ever.

She's not licking anywhere.

But let's pull a little bit up from this,

and what are you saying?

[Marjorie] Oh, wow.

He always wants things a certain way,

and he'll b*tch and complain about things

if they're not done a certain way.

But he never helps.

[Jason] The conditions, the way the cats,

the litter and stuff.

I want nothing to do with that

because it's a disaster.

You wouldn't even know how to keep it.

When I had a cat, I'd scoop every day.

[Orna] Don't go into another round of it.

Let's start again because it--

Notice that immediately fell apart, our conversation.

[both laugh]

-Okay. -We're a disaster!

Are we a disaster?

-[Orna] You're not a disaster. -This is only the beginning.

We're trying to build a process that you can apply

to any of these conversations.

It doesn't matter what we talk about, politics or cat litter.

You're saying that you each, first of all,

have very different ideas or standards of

-how you want your home to be... -Absolutely.

...and how to take care of the pets.

[Jason] Definitely.

[Orna] How do you propose

the two of you manage

the six or seven pets together?

As far as the cats go, I would really appreciate,

if you want it to be scooped every day,

if we do it even every other day.

Me, you, Bailey. Me, you, Bailey.

But I can't imagine you ever going and doing that,

but I would love to help that.

-I know, I did it again. -No, but...

Hold on. What did you do?

I-I was mean.

-[Orna] Yeah. -I was mean.

If Marjorie has a Monday, Bailey has a Tuesday

and I have a Wednesday,

and when I walk by Monday and Tuesday

that I see that their portion has been done,

I have no problem doing Wednesday.

-But when I see slack and-- -[Orna] Wait.

-Yeah, sorry. -Each of you do this.

You start with something constructive,

but then you kind of take it apart.

Do you want to agree on this small experiment?

-[Jason] I would love-- -Let's get to an agreement

and see what happens.

-Can we agree with that? -I would love : p.m.

-Oh, Jesus. -Monday is me.

Why's it got to be so strict?

Does it have to be a date and time?

If they say, "Oh yeah, I'll do it."

No, nothing.

If you hold to a deadline--

[Orna] Okay, let's rewind a little bit.

Tell me something about your background.

You know, I grew up, I had a major anger problem as a kid.

-[Orna] As a kid? -Yeah. Major.

What was the major problem?

I think it came from a broken home.

-Never had a dad. -[Orna] Where was your dad?

He left my mother, cheated on my mother

when I was three years old or something.

Custody battles, you know?

Drug use.

-[Orna] Who? -Both.

-[Orna] Mm-hmm. -I got hooked.

[Orna] At what age?

[Jason] I started messing around with smoking pot

when I was like, you know, , .

Hang out with the wrong people and you try a little of this,

you try a little of that, and you get hooked.

-What did you get hooked on? -Heroin.

[Orna] At what age?

Heroin started probably around , .

[Orna] How did you use it?

I ended up IV.

You know, a bundle of dope a day.

Every-every-every day.

You know, running to Newark.

Stole my mother's wedding ring,

cut the gutters off the house.

I was bottom of the barrel man.

And I'm very lucky to be alive.

You are.

[Jason] And I remember

being in rehab that last time

because I went to rehab multiple times.

I said, "This is gonna be the last time."

Whatever these people want me to do in there,

I'm gonna do it the best I can

and I'm gonna follow the rules.

Whatever they taught me in that program,

I kept doing it when I got out.

All the principles that they taught me.

Like what?

You know, your first thought,

do the opposite.

That first thought is what got you going that way.

So I shot off the other way.

And I kept building on it and building on it.

Like, she says all this rigidness,

all this, "Seven o'clock, clean the cats."

-[Orna] Yeah. -You know?

Because that way I know works.

-[Orna] Yeah. -And for me,

sometimes things are a life-and-death matter.

So if I don't follow that,

I could die.

That's basically my perspective.

That's good information for you.

I hear him, and I understand what he's saying, and I get it.

On the-- I want him to realize that that works for you,

not necessarily for me.

So we're different...

But then I could say--

-[Orna] But you can understand-- -Why it's important to him?

-A hundred percent. -And I could say,

"If you're that way, what you do will k*ll me."

-That's intense. -[Orna] That is intense.

That's how I have to maintain

and live the life that I live today.

So let's try to get to a simple agreement about the cat litter.

[Marjorie] Okay. Okay.

: p.m. Monday.

-So you want Mondays? -Scoop the litter.

-[Orna] For you? -For me.

You can pick your own date and time.

Why does it have to be a certain time?

You like things very precise, orderly.

-Marjorie doesn't. -No.

She prefers it looser.

So meet in the middle.

Okay, between : and :.

[laughs]

-Dr. Orna... -That gives you : and :.

-No. -[Jason] Afternoons.

I have a day. Tuesday. It's a day.

[Orna] That's meeting in the middle.

Each responsible for your own day.

And let's see what happens.

♪ relaxing music playing ♪

[barking]

♪ funky Spanish pop music ♪

[barking]

-[cat meowing] -[dogs barking]

[Nessa] Andrea and I are best friends.

We get along.

And so I rely on that to carry me through,

to keep the atmosphere in the home peaceful.

And I don't focus so much on the part that is dissatisfied

until I have to focus on that part,

until it's time to be romantic with one another.

I'm like, "I'm not feeling it." And you're like, "I am."

And then it becomes that... you know what I mean? Struggle.

When you talk about romantic, are we talking about sexual?

Intimate, yes. I'm not necessarily...

in a desiring mood.

Okay, let's say more about that.

[Nessa] For a long time in our relationship,

our sex life was very one-sided.

Andrea was a, what we call a "pillow princess,"

where I was just always serving.

Then we went through a period of time

where she kind of didn't want to do anything with me at all.

And it was like, well, okay.

So I went without a hundred percent.

How long was that period?

[Nessa] Like a year.

-[Orna] So a drought. -A drought.

And then we worked up and she found her--

I think turned . She found her sexual prowess.

Her confidence is building. She's like, "I can do this."

Now she's like, ravenous. Oh, my gosh.

She's like a horny teenager. I want, I want.

And I'm like, I don't know if it's already me just in my head

about, here are all these things now I'm also unhappy with.

Okay, pause for a second. How are you hearing all of this?

It's hard to just lock those things all up and be like,

"All right, now let's, you know, be intimate."

I understand that.

Comma, where are you putting those things

when you're letting me eat your p*ssy?

You're not still laying there thinking,

"Oh my God, you know,

Drea made me suffer through a drought for a year

and Drea didn't do this and that."

So wherever you put them then, why can't you put them away?

I'm thinking, "Am I leading her on by thinking that this is..."

-Leading on your wife. -Right.

[Orna] Say that again.

I'm thinking, am I leading her on

by accepting this pleasure, right?

[Orna] Mm-hmm.

Into her thinking,

"Okay, we're back to normal."

It's not back to normal for me.

But if I bring that up, then I'm "k*lling the moment."

You don't have to "bunny ears." You are k*lling the moment.

No, because what I'm saying is that--

Nessa, what would you want

Andrea's response to be?

What would be a response

that would feel like there's space to talk?

I want to refrain from intimacy.

You think that's what Andrea should say?

I'm saying that, and I think she could...

-Should be in agreement. -...should agree.

And not try to advance,

and also not make the atmosphere

thick because of lack of intimacy.

It's so crazy of me to think

that I should be having sex with my wife.

Isn't it so crazy that we can have nice,

intimate moments...

But Andrea-- Andrea, stop.

-...where we can be... -Andrea. Andrea.

You're being cynical.

But that's not a discussion.

-She's being ridiculous. -[Orna] That's a fight.

-We can have moments where-- -Andrea, look at me.

You can zing each other and be cynical with each other,

but that's not going to get you anywhere.

[Drea] Okay.

So what's your response? Where does that leave you?

I don't have anything to say about where that leaves me.

Let's imagine what you could possibly be feeling.

I mean, it's upsetting.

It is an upsetting thing to hear.

-So I feel upset. -[Orna] Sure.

Yeah.

And do you want to say more

about your own experience in that?

Hmm.

I mean, it sucks right now, but...

And it sucks sometimes.

I love her, and I love being married to her,

and I don't want to not...

[Drea sighs]

It's okay.

I don't want to not be married to her.

The best parts of my life have been with her,

have come from her.

Every good experience I've had in my life.

Everything. I met Nessa when I was .

Half of the first-time-ever-doing anythings

have been with her.

She's the best person

I could have picked to be with.

She's the best person

I could have picked to have a child with.

And all I hear is just...

she's ready to be done with me and move on.

[Orna] Mm-hmm.

Whatever.

[Drea crying]

Like, I am really trying.

I think I'm a good wife,

and I think that somebody would be happy

to have me as their wife.

And I just wish it was this person.

♪ Da, da, da ♪

♪ Da-da, da, da ♪

♪ Forget it ♪

♪ I know how you want it ♪

♪ Uh-huh, I'm not her ♪

♪ Don't wanna talk about it

♪ I see it when you lie when you come back, run back ♪

♪ Wondering why I didn't call back ♪

♪ Look me in the eye, I know you ♪

♪ Don't wanna talk about it ♪

♪ Because I love you, babe, and I want you to stay here ♪

♪ It's a two-way road ♪

♪ But it feels like we ride in a one way ♪

♪ One way ♪

♪ Ooh, honey ♪

-♪ Oh, take it down -♪ Take it down

♪ I wanna wear the crown ♪

♪ You should see me now ♪

♪ Ooh, ooh, honey ♪

♪ Ooh, I got needs too ♪

♪ Need you to please, please, please ♪

♪ Please my needs too ♪

♪ Ooh, ooh, honey ♪

-♪ Oh, take it down -♪ Take it down ♪

♪ I wanna wear the crown ♪

♪ You should see me now ♪

♪ Ooh, ooh, honey ♪

♪ Honey ♪

♪ I got needs too ♪

♪ Need you to please, please, please ♪

♪ Please my needs too ♪

♪ Ooh, ooh, honey ♪

♪ Yeah, honey ♪

♪ Yeah, honey ♪

♪ Oh, honey, honey ♪

♪ Yeah, yeah ♪

♪ Da, na, hmm ♪

♪ Da-da, da, da ♪

♪ Da, da-na, da, da, da ♪

♪ Da, da, da, da ♪