05x06 - Episode 6

[bunniefuu]

[door opening]

[door closes]

-[Shay] Hi. -Hey.

How are you?

Tired.

I can imagine.

[sighs]

[sniffles]

♪ funky music playing ♪

-Hi. -Hi!

-Hi. -How are you?

-[Orna] Good. How are you? -[Shay] Good!

[door closes]

Took two days and we started fighting again.

-Two days after you left here? -[Clinton] Two days, two days.

And I'll explain what happened.

So we were just talking about

the open relationship aspect of it all.

Tell me-- First of all, tell me the parameters

of your open relationship.

What exactly is going on there?

In the beginning of our relationship,

I was seeing someone else... -[Orna] Mm-hmm.

...and he was very aware of that when I started.

[Orna] Mm-hmm.

I ended up stopping seeing them,

and I just saw him.

And he wanted monogamy in the beginning.

-[Orna] Okay. -So I went with it

for a good amount of time.

And then I wasn't getting my needs met.

-Mm-hmm. -So I was like,

I'm not interested in someone else intimately,

but I still want to have sex... -[Orna] Mm-hmm.

...and I am very capable of separating the two.

So I was doing this in agreeance.

We both had an agreeance with it.

It wasn't-- There was no odd terms.

-We both were aligned. -Mm-hmm.

[Shay] Except the core problem

is that Clinton hasn't followed the rules.

Clinton has had two moments

that I had to find out on my own

where he's-- He talked and spoke with people about...

No, I'll tell her how I found out, too. I'm not ashamed of it.

Yeah, going through my damn phone while I was sleeping.

No, no, no, no. I didn't go through your phone

while you were sleeping.

It was going off repeatedly late at night.

For right now, I don't care how you found out, okay?

I just want to understand what the issue is.

He met up with two separate women on two separate occasions.

And we're in an open relationship.

-[Orna] Yeah. -There's nothing to hide.

You could have just been upfront about it.

But you made a decision to hide it from me.

Pause.

-Do you want to say something? -[Clinton] Yes.

The first time, I told her about it.

The second time, I found out last minute

that they was working near my house and we had met up.

I didn't get a chance to even tell her... and stuff.

I didn't even get a chance to tell her yet.

It was like an ultimate last-minute-- Last-minute thing.

-So that happened. I understand. -[Clinton] And that happened.

And this person was also, like,

in the beginning of their transition,

so we were just talking like friends because we met

in a meetup group, in one of my meetup groups

and stuff like that for neurodivergent people.

And...

they were just showing off some of the stuff that they got.

-Half-naked photos. -[Orna] Mm-hmm.

They were just showing off some of the stuff they got

because they starting getting new clothes and stuff like that.

I was like, "Oh sh*t, that's dope." Da-da-da-da.

You know, like celebrating that.

-Mm-hmm. -And, like,

do I understand how

that conclusion could be reached?

[Orna] The conclusion that...?

Of that I am doing something behind her back.

-[Orna] You're hiding stuff? -Yes, yes.

-I can understand that. -[Orna] Okay.

And this isn't the first--

So this created some mistrust.

-Tension and misunderstanding. -There's no misunderstanding.

-No, no, there-- -It's very clear...

-And on top of that-- -...in how you're acting.

-[Orna] I understand-- -No, no!

It is a complete misunderstanding.

I think you two-- Clinton, can I stop you for a second?

Okay. I'm sorry. I just realized I was getting overwhelmed.

But I'm trying to get to the essence

of what's the problem with the open relationship.

What's the main issue right now?

I jumped on the Discord and I was talking with people

and stuff like that, just randomly talking with people,

just like, you know, a new community.

I'm learning something new, right?

Meaning you're excited about this group?

[Clinton] Yeah! I'm very excited about it.

Discovering different things about myself and things I like,

things I don't, but also, like,

talking with people about their experiences.

And yes, there's a lot of trans women in this group.

He's not casually talking.

That's a lie.

And I'm kind of tired of him lying in front of me.

-I'm not lying! Can you stop-- -You sure?

Because I can pull up receipts that you are lying.

Receipts for what?

Receipts of your actions.

I will pull them up in the phone.

-Do you want to sit here lying? -Do you hear her threatening me?

-Clinton, stop. -[Clinton] No, no!

Because my moms did this sh*t. I'm tired of this sh*t.

Stop. Stop. Stop.

There are two people that have two different ideas

of what's going on between the two of you.

Do you want to fight it out

or do you want us to have a therapeutic conversation?

-Yes, that, the latter. Yes. -[Orna] Okay.

So you're going to each tell each other and me

what matters to you about what's going on here.

Don't argue about facts.

Talk about what matters to you.

He's been seeing a girl in the group,

and he has said in the group that he has two girlfriends.

I said in the group that I have...?

[grunts]

Shay, do you want to just say out loud what you discovered?

I discovered that he is having an intimate relationship,

that he's just been talking about my life

and my vulnerable things in this group

without even asking me if I'm okay with it.

He's sharing it as if he's helping people,

using my life to help others,

which I've shared with him intimately.

[Orna] Mm-hmm.

Do you understand what's upsetting to Shay?

-Yes, I do understand. -Can you say it back to her?

She is saying that, like,

me having these conversations online,

sharing her information, sharing her stories,

saying I have, like, two different relationships.

She's feeling very hurt by that.

[Orna] Mm-hmm.

Right.

And I understand it.

[Orna] Do you hear that?

I hear it. I just...

[Orna] What-- What else would you like to hear?

[Shay] You're emotionally tying yourself to people

who aren't even present with you.

I'm here.

I'm here in real life.

I have fed you emotionally, spiritually, physically...

and that is what you bring to my table?

Can I see what that says?

The audacity! It's just--

Because there might be some context that's missing.

Here you go.

-[Clinton] Let me see. -Go right ahead.

[muttering]

What part of this is the most painful to you?

He can't even be honest with me in an open relationship.

If it was closed, at least I could be like,

"Oh, you're hiding it with purpose.”

I’m... [sighs]

-It's fair that Shay's upset. -[Orna] Yeah.

I am sorry.

Well, and she's not-- She’s not going to hear it.

-Do you want an interaction--? -[Shay] I don't know.

-[Orna] You don't know? -"I'm sorry" feels...

It's "I'm caught, now I'm sorry."

[Orna] Hold on. Hold on.

You have a lot to say

and a lot of feelings,

and many things you want to convey.

But it sounds to me like talking to each other right now...

-[Shay] Is not effective. -...is not effective.

So I have homework to assign.

Yeah.

How about you write letters to each other,

but the letter cannot be longer than words.

[Clinton] Okay.

[Orna] No insults.

-Yeah. -No cynicism.

Let's see what happens with time.

[Shay] Thank you for your time.

♪ funky guitar music playing

[Orna]Do you know what this platform called Discord is?

Yes and no.

[Orna] You can create these online groups,

chat groups where people can join.

On a particular subject that everybody wants to talk about.

[Orna] Yeah.

So the agreement between them

was that their relationship is open

as long as it's just sexual

and there's no emotional intimacy.

But he's developing close relationships

with some of the people in the group,

and she feels like all of his attention

is now going to this Discord group

and she lost him as her partner.

[Virginia]The feeling I have is she's too much for him.

She's overwhelming. She knows everything.

And so...

he may need another domain...

-[Orna] Yeah. -...that she's not a part of,

and maybe it's not about betraying her.

-It's about, I have a thing. -[Orna] Yeah.

Yeah.

♪ percussive music playing

[chattering]

[indistinct chatter]

[Nessa] She was sitting there having a bad day.

-[Orna] Mm-hmm. -[Nessa] Right?

She's staring off into space

and with a literal frown on her face.

Once I see that, I'm like, "Oh gosh, like, what's wrong?

How can I make it better?

Nothing I can do makes it better."

For me, it's like, I just need to escape from this.

But you're actually not saying something about Andrea.

You're saying something about yourself...

which is that if Andrea is in a mood or tired,

you feel immediately compelled

-to do something about it. -Yeah.

[Orna] That's your undifferentiated response.

Right.

[Orna] So let's start there.

What's that about for you?

It's a pattern I think that has played out for so long,

and I resort to it.

-Mm-hmm. -[Nessa] Growing up,

my mother had gone through a lot,

and I was the child in the home.

I remember not even wanting to go outside to play

because I knew she was sad.

-Mm. -And I'm always the one like,

"It's going to be okay. Let's do this."

That's how we kind of related to one another, is...

not that she would tell me adult things,

but I would know because I was in the home.

And because you were tuned in.

Yeah.

So in a way, you were a little bit

of your mom's therapist.

-[Nessa] Yeah. -Yeah.

So you kind of learned

to be that way, or wired that way.

-Yeah. -[Orna] Whether it's fixation,

Andrea's face or fixation on...

how is she feeling?

Do I need to do anything about it?

That's your own thing.

-Right. -[Orna] Right?

♪ contemplative ambient music ♪

[Orna]From the beginning, Drea has been talking

about the fact that they go through this crazy cycle.

This pattern of Nessa has to go,

and then falling back into each other.

[Virginia]Yeah. They separate out of hurt,

not out of desire to be separated.

[Orna]Yeah. Now, why this is happening,

we're still not completely clear.

But what I'm betting on is working on differentiation.

-Agreed. -On cutting the umbilical cord

and having them figure out a way

to be each her separate individual

and let's see what happens.

-Hi. -Hi.

[Drea]I feel like...

it's good and things are going good.

And then I'll notice within like to hours,

we've gone from being playful and, you know, funny

and having a good time to me getting, like,

this cold shoulder and one-word answers.

In this moment of impasse that the two of you are describing,

when was the last time this happened?

Uh, maybe four days ago.

-[Orna] Okay. -She felt like I put on...

sleepwear that, uh, implied that I wanted to have sex.

So she went and got the video game

and went in the office and laid down in the bed

and played the video game

while I stayed out in the living room

to put distance between us

to get rid of that confusion.

[Nessa] When you put on the nightdress

that she has said gives her scantily clad--

And she's, you know... and it's enticed me before.

We've had a moment before with it.

When I saw you put that on, I was like,

I don't want to put myself in a position

where I'm doing something because I know you want me to.

And so what I tried to do was take the game into the room

to remain close to you because you were in the room.

You were in the room, but I was saying,

"I don't want to be distant. I just don't want to have sex."

[Drea] I did not consciously bathe

and put on something thinking, you know,

tonight's the night.

-I did not-- I told you that. -That's okay. And that's fine,

but you're making it seem... -[Orna] Nessa.

...like you're pissed at me. -Nessa. Nessa.

Hold on, Orna. You're making it seem--

-You're pissing me off. -[Orna] Stop, both of you.

I need to be able to understand.

So can you finish your sentence?

I felt rejected.

And when I say something about that, it turns into,

"Well, because you wanted to have sex and I didn't want to."

I was trying to avoid her feeling rejected

by going to her.

[Orna] Nessa, let me try something.

Yes.

Is it possible that in your attempts,

legitimate attempts to find your own space,

your own mind,

you're putting Drea

through a level of rejection

that it's hard for you to tolerate?

-For me to tolerate? -[Orna] Yes.

That you're both doing it

and trying to somehow convince her

it's not happening.

No, I know that I'm putting her through...

That I'm hurting her. - A certain level of rejection.

Yes, yes. I do know that.

-And it is painful. -So let her have her feelings.

You don't need to convince her to feel any different.

I'm not trying to convince her,

but when she remembers the situation wrong,

-that's, to me like-- -She's not remembering it wrong.

She's remembering what matters to her.

Okay. All right. Okay.

[Orna] And she's saying she felt rejected.

-Okay. -You say things in a way

that is true for you,

and Drea keeps telling you, "Ouch, that hurt."

So what am I supposed to do then?

Nothing.

Not try to convince her to not be hurt.

Okay.

[Orna] Let's just start from there.

Okay.

Any change is uncomfortable and painful.

But let's allow some of that to happen.

Do you agree with that?

Sure.

[Orna] So I want to talk to you

about what to do when you feel hurt.

It doesn't have to mean some kind of catastrophic rejection

of the relationship.

It could mean this person is on some kind of journey...

and what are you going to do?

You know, I don't know because I don't see how...

me being patient

is not just taking another loop

on the roller coaster. -[Orna] Hm-hmm. I hear you.

So do I.

But to really answer that question,

you have to try to do something differently, both of you.

And the differently thing is,

how do you do this marriage differentiated?

So what do I do different?

[Orna] Let her have her space.

Don't take it so personally.

And use the time...

for yourself.

She gets space. I don't get space.

What would you like to do if you had more space?

-I've never thought about it. -[Orna] Let's think about it.

I don't know.

Stuff. Go places.

And not implying that we don't, because we do things.

[Orna] Not "we." You. What would you want to do

-if you had more space? -I don't know.

If somehow into your schedule there were,

I don't know, four hours a week.

It could be like take a nap. It could be read a book.

Read more books, probably.

[Orna] Mm-hmm. Read a book.

-Or write. -[Orna] Mm-hmm.

Read, write.

-Take a nap. -[Orna] Take a nap. Mm-hmm.

I want to cook stuff. I want to...

learn to make my own pasta.

[Orna] Mm-hmm.

I don't know.

Is there any way that the two of you

can work into your schedule

four hours where Andrea's...

off duty?

You want Friday nights?

Take Friday nights.

[Orna] I'd like it to come from you.

Friday nights.

From what time?

-From what time? -No, you.

Five?

-Sure. -[Orna] Okay.

I'm thinking of this as creating a space in your mind...

of where to go

when Nessa is suddenly, like,

needing her own space.

I'd like you to have your own space too.

To practice it.

All right, let's see how this goes.

♪ dramatic music playing ♪

[traffic ambience]

[Orna] Chris keeps offering himself up

as the guilty one,

but then you have to ask,

"Well, what is he still

under the spell of?"

There's something else that he's still needing to reenact."

This is not just between him and Sienna.

I was thinking about it from the ambiguous loss lens,

-And then-- -From the what?

[Tashi] The ambiguous loss lens.

Losing someone psychologically, losing someone physically.

If you lose them in one way

but have them in another way,

that's called an ambiguous loss.

Something that he experienced with both of his parents.

-Like if someone had a stroke. -[Tashi] Right.

If someone had a stroke. -[Kenny] And he's -years old.

[Tashi] And he's five.

Yeah.

And his father was present,

but not present.

His mother suddenly was present, but not present.

[Orna] Then the parents got divorced at some point.

And with the divorce,

he and his sister were sent to live with the mom,

and the Tongan family

were sent with the dad.

[all] Oh.

So he lost that mom.

Malia.

And Malia's son, Moses,

who was an older brother to Chris.

[Jade] Yeah.

And then Sienna was working,

left home, was working.

Could that have been a kind of...

-Feels like it. -...triggering...

ambiguous loss?

And that's when he started paying for cuddles.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Orna] Yeah.

[Chris] I had a great deal of guilt

in the way that my mom treated my dad,

and then I kind of treated my dad.

And we never really had a father-son relationship

because I was always thinking,

"He's my dad, but he's not my dad.

So, just, there's nothing--

Like, I don't need to really connect with him deeply."

But Moses,

my brother Moses

and my dad were tight.

You see pictures and they just like are...

Moses has his arm around them, like high fives.

And I just think, like, I love that they had that.

-But I didn't. -[Orna] Mm-hmm.

[Chris] I was

and my dad had had an operation,

and I was supposed to visit him.

And I didn't.

I wanted to just hang out,

see my friends, smoke a little bit of weed.

And Moses called me that night and he was like,

"Your dad died."

[sighs]

So after he died,

basically I'm-- I'm in control now.

But it's tough because when you're

and you have attorneys involved, they're like,

"We're selling your dad's house. They have to go."

Like, they were staying

because they were taking care of your dad.

That was the job."

And I was like, "No, they were staying

because they're f*cking family."

Mm-hmm.

And then when I turned

and got access to some of the trust,

I gave them money to put a down payment on a house.

Like, I always wanted to make sure I was there for them.

And I think when we moved back from Baltimore to San Mateo...

and Moses' kids were grown...

and Malia's right there across the bay...

and we had little-a*s kids,

-and it was like-- -Three kids.

"Can you come and visit and be with us?"

It just didn't f*cking happen.

And I think that really hurt me.

-Yeah. -I was like,

now everybody's okay and I need you,

and you're just with him because he's actually your son

and you're not with me anymore.

-Baby. -Because I'm not.

And I think that f*cked me up.

Well, to say that in more words,

you think that...

Malia didn't become a mother and a grandmother

like I wanted her to,

like I thought she would be.

But some question in the back of your mind

of how much of that is paid for.

Yeah, how much of it is genuine and am I...

charming and nice?

Am I lovable?

[Chris] Yeah.

I didn't clock the rejection.

-You know... -I didn't clock that

you feel in some part that...

she chose Moses over you because that's her blood son.

[Chris] Yeah.

Uh...

[sighs]

Right when we were getting together,

my mom broke her hip and her femur

in Key West, and I had to go get her.

I didn't have, really, a place to live.

Um, and so I brought her...

to the Tongan family in Hayward.

Oh, God.

[Chris] And she stayed in her room,

and I stayed in the room next to her.

And it was f*cking childhood all over again,

but it was in their house.

Every f*cking day,

my mom was telling me that I had to help her

commit suicide.

Mm.

f*cking every day she wanted to discuss it.

I think she just wanted to fantasize

and know that she had an out.

And she had a g*n.

And she's like,

"You can just sh**t me, you know?"

And finally, it was just me, my mom and Moses,

and I f*cking broke.

I grabbed the g*n

and I was like, "Let's go."

She's like, "What do you mean?"

I could see the fear in her eyes and I f*cking loved it.

Like, "Let's get in the car. I'll carry you right now.

We're going to go to Stinson Beach.

I've already thought about this.

Stinson Beach. I'm gonna carry you into the woods

and I'm going to put you down and sh**t you in the face."

-[Orna] Mm-hmm. -"And then we're done."

And she's like, "No, no, Christian. No."

And I was like, "Oh yeah, we're doing it."

Because I just wanted her to f*cking stop.

And then I just started screaming at the top of my lungs

and slamming the door over and over and over again.

-Oh my... -Then I just stopped.

And I went and I made myself like a bowl of ice cream.

-[laughs] -And Moses comes

running down the stairs and he's like,

"What happened? Is Melinda okay?

Are you okay?"

And I just calmly looked up at him,

just eating my ice cream and I was like,

"Everything's fine. Everything's fine."

"There was screaming and banging."

I was like, "No, there wasn't."

And so, uh, later on when my mom died,

that closed that book.

And then three months later

I was f*cking admitted on a .

[Orna] Yeah.

All right.

-This is a good session. -[laughs]

[Orna] Um...

How are you, Sienna?

I'm feeling the weight of the web,

of how interconnected everything is,

and also feeling overwhelmed by...

the magnitude of these...

sticky strings that were held in.

-[Chris] f*ck. -[Sienna] Oh, sweetie.

[Chris sniffles]

[Sienna] You haven't done this in a long time.

-Mm-hmm. -He used to lay his head

in my lap like this when he was...

Was it before the hospital? It was after the hospital.

When my mom moved back,

like, I wasn't in a good place mentally.

And then her dying was just, like, the, the...

the end, the break.

But I used to lay my head in Sienna's lap

and I wouldn't get up.

[Orna] Mm-hmm.

I mean, now that you're doing this, I'm like...

I can see why cuddling...

was a source of comfort.

Because you'd pay for an amount of time of this.

Yeah.

[Sienna] Oh, honey.

I'm always here.

All right. I'm ready.

[Orna] How are you doing, Chris?

[sighs] I'm good.

Stop! What?

Just take a second...

-No, I'm not... No. -...and listen to the question.

I'm not suppressing. Like, I feel good.

Like, I feel like I need a really good f*cking cry.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

["Unguarded Light" by Matt Pond PA & Anya Marina]

♪ I see you ♪

♪ You see me ♪

♪ In unguarded light ♪

♪ We let ourselves be free ♪

♪ In unguarded light ♪

♪ We let ourselves be free ♪

♪ You've heard it all before ♪

♪ The sound of slamming doors ♪

♪ We know we won't be bored ♪

♪ I see you ♪

♪ You see me ♪

♪ In unguarded light ♪

♪ We let ourselves be free ♪

♪ I see you ♪

♪ You see me ♪

♪ In unguarded light ♪

♪ We let ourselves be free ♪

♪ When you leave the house ♪

♪ I'll leave the car ♪

♪ Surrender ♪

♪ Soaking up the rain ♪

♪ Meet me on the steps ♪

♪ We own the dark ♪

♪ I see you ♪

♪ You see me ♪

♪ In unguarded light ♪

♪ We let ourselves be free ♪

♪ In unguarded light ♪

♪ We let ourselves be free ♪

♪ In unguarded light ♪

♪ We let ourselves be free ♪