[slow, pensive music begins]
[Dr. Rose] I wanna ask questions about...
what happened within the family
that brought you to therapy.
[music continues]
[Sophia "Arguelles" Maddox] You know,
I don't know, I come from a, a m*rder*r.
You know, who would...
who the f*ck would accept me?
Uh, so what else do you need to know?
Maybe the best way to start this
is to talk about my dad.
My dad... was a great dad.
Are you my babys? Are you my babys? Huh?
[Sophia] Growing up, I felt like he and I
were the only two people who existed.
She's flying through the air!
[Sophia] Everyone else
was living in our world.
My parents were divorced,
but my dad took care of me part-time.
[Daniel Arguelles]
Time to get dressed for school.
[Sophia] His biggest gift to me
was his imagination.
He was a writer, actor, and director.
What, are you kidding me?
The President's gonna be there.
[Sophia] But he never
quite made it as a filmmaker.
Until one day...
he did.
[Daniel] Action.
[yelling]
[Sophia]
He filmed every second of my life.
There was nothing
we wouldn't do for each other.
[young Sophia]
Can I, um, videotape, um, the world?
[Daniel] That's what
you're doing right now.
You're videotaping the world.
[young Sophia] Oh, you're gonna like this.
[traffic rumbling]
[Sophia] I'm now that LA clich
of a struggling actress,
babysitter, wannabe filmmaker.
I work a bunch of jobs,
and I have 50 bucks in the bank.
And then, my dad and I just, uh,
got some really bad news.
[somber music playing]
It shattered our worlds.
[crew talking indistinctly]
-[crew member] Bobby, you good?
-[Bobby] Yeah.
[crew member] Okay, cool.
This is Daniel's interview.
[Sophia] I'm terrified.
-Is it a little weird for you?
-[Daniel] Yeah.
[Sophia] But... this is my story.
So, this all started because
you never knew your dad.
Yeah, yeah.
[soft music playing]
Growing up, was always
skeptical of my father.
Uh, he was Hispanic, of course,
with the last name Arguelles.
And I would go up to him
and put my arm up against his
and I'd say, "Hey, how come
I'm white and you're brown?"
So, when I was 21, I did press my mother
if Jim was my real father.
[Sophia] What did she say?
She confessed, "No, he wasn't."
And I said, "Okay, who's my dad?"
She said, "I really don't know."
And when I was, you know, 18, 19 years old
in Hollywood, everybody was telling me,
"Wow, you look just like a young Elvis."
I like to sing, I like to dance,
I like to act.
[imitating Elvis Presley]
How are you doing, everybody?
That's right, it's me, Elvis Presley.
You know, I'm doing my new album,
and it's called Loving You.
You had a lot of Elvis impressions,
impersonations around the house.
[normal] Yeah, I walk around
like I'm Elvis, you know?
I gotta be Elvis, right?
[Sophia] So, you joined Ancestry
to find your father.
It wasn't until seven years later
you found a half-brother.
[inhales] Right.
He just said,
"Hey, uh, I'm Mike, and we matched."
And I was like, "Oh, brothers, wow.
Okay, then you know
who your dad is, maybe?"
"Yeah, I know who he is."
And who's your dad?
[Daniel] You know.
Can you say it for me?
Charles Manson.
[Sophia sniffles]
["My World" by Charles Manson playing]
My world is a sad world
Often wonder if there's blame
Such a fool
-In a mad, mad world
-[Sophia] Hi, Puppa. [clicks tongue]
Did you have a good day?
Such a fool in a...
Charles Manson, to me,
he was just this cult leader
and this m*rder*r I had
read about on Wikipedia.
When I found out
he was my grandfather,
I didn't know what he looked like...
so I decided to YouTube "Charles Manson."
[newscaster 1]
Breaking news, Charles Manson,
cult leader
who led a string of murders
in the 1960s is dead.
[newscaster 2]
With a swastika on his forehead
and eyes wild with violence,
Charles Manson was the face of evil.
Maybe it was that look
in Charles Manson's eyes
that convinced people
to m*rder in his name.
[newscaster 3] He was once called
"the most dangerous man in America."
Forty years later
and the fascination hasn't faded.
People are still interested
in Charles Manson.
Twenty years ago today,
America was stunned
by one of the most brutal
k*lling sprees in history.
[newscaster 4] He's been called,
"Madman, mobster,
and monster, and m*rder*r."
The center of a kind of
horrible fascination that will not die.
He's a dangerous influence on society.
Dangerous, highly dangerous.
[suspenseful music playing]
[newscaster 5] In a scene
described by one investigator
as reminiscent of a weird religious rite,
five persons, including actress,
Sharon Tate, were found dead
at the home of Miss Tate and her husband,
screen director, Roman Polanski.
Miss Tate was eight months pregnant
and was found with a rope around her neck
attached to the body of a man.
Among the other victims
were Hollywood hairstylist,
Jay Sebring,
and coffee heiress, Abigail Folger.
[Thomas Noguchi]
Cause of death, multiple stab wounds
of the chest and back.
[newscaster 5] One officer summed up
the murders when he said,
"In all my years, I have never seen
anything like this before."
[newscaster 6]
A short time later, not far away,
a middle-aged couple was found m*rder*d
in similar circumstances.
[newscaster 7]
Leno LaBianca, a supermarket owner,
and his wife had both been
stabbed to death, repeated stab wounds.
On his body, the word "w*r"
had been carved in the chest.
Then, with blood, the k*ller had scrawled
the words, "Death to Pigs."
[intense music playing]
[newscaster 6] Five members
of a so-called religious cult,
including Charles Manson,
the guru, or high priest,
have been indicted in the m*rder
of Sharon Tate and six others.
[Vincent Bugliosi] These defendants
literally entered the homes of citizens
of this community at random
and literally slaughtered the victims
in an orgy of m*rder.
[newscaster 8]
All the elements are present
for one of the most sensational
m*rder trials in American history.
The involvement of a mystical hippie clan,
which despised
the straight affluent society.
Young girls, supposedly under the spell
of a bearded Svengali,
who allegedly masterminded
the seven murders.
[newscaster 7] In a conspiracy,
the acts of one member
are attributed to all members.
Under that approach, they needn't prove
that he actually did the k*lling.
It's all a play, isn't it?
[newscaster 7] The act
of the murders themselves
will be the case against the other members
of the so-called Family.
Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkel,
Leslie Van Houten, Charles Watson.
[Vincent] Manson's principle motive
for ordering the seven
Tate-LaBianca murders
was his fanatical obsession
with "Helter Skelter,"
a term he borrowed from the English
musical recording group, The Beatles.
To ignite Helter Skelter,
to start the Black/white, uh, revolution,
Manson envisioned that white people
would turn against the Black man
if they thought
the Black man had committed
these seven murders.
The victims, by necessity, had to be white
and preferably in the white establishment.
[newscaster 1] The jury
hearing the charges
against Charles Manson
and three girl members
of his so-called Family
brought in its verdict.
All were found guilty
of m*rder in the first degree.
[newscaster 2]
Manson then shouted at the jurors,
"You're all guilty.
We are still not allowed
to put on a defense."
The press has been the mouthpiece
of the prosecution.
And they've succeeded in brainwashing
a lot of people.
Charlie never preached a Race w*r."
-That's what the DA gave you for reality.
-[Tom Snyder] Okay.
He stood in the courtroom and said,
"This man did this,
and this man did that,"
and you all believed him.
[music fades out]
[Sophia clears throat, sniffles]
[Sophia] Those first few days
after I found out...
I don't think I've ever been
that low in my life.
I kinda hated myself.
I hated him.
[exhales]
I've always been the good one.
I've always been the one, or the kid,
with her head screwed on right.
I would always get these, like,
integrity or caring awards, and...
all of the teachers would tell my parents
how nice I was to everybody and...
if someone was lonely,
I'd go sit next to them,
or if I saw someone bullied,
I'd stand up against the bully and...
I always took really great pride
in being this moral, good person.
[pensive music playing]
And then you find out
your grandfather's Manson...
[sobbing]
...the most hated man.
How could my blood do something so...
atrocious?
How could my blood...
be the cause of other people's bloodshed?
[tense music playing]
If it's true that there
was something in him
that made him this satanic cult leader...
do my dad and I
have that in our blood too?
[reel clicking]
I have his eyes.
His hands are my dad's.
It f*ck with you.
Was he born evil or was it something else?
I need to find out what made him.
[birds chirping]
I don't know, I just feel like
I, for sure, need a therapist.
I'm the spawn of the spawn
of the spawn of Satan.
You know, he was called second to Hitler.
[Dr. Rose] Um, I don't want
to minimize what you're sharing...
but I may challenge
parts of your narrative.
Being the descendant
of somebody labeled "a monster among men,"
it is your God-given right
to break that down
and to make sense of that.
I think a part of the information
that you're coming into
is that there are parts
of Charlie's narrative
that was sensationalized.
If you're not careful
as one of his descendants,
you will carry the sensationalization,
-and that is not yours to carry.
-Yeah.
So, breaking down
the sensationalization of him,
what is true?
What is accurate? What is real?
So I am clear about what I need to break
-and what I don't need to carry.
-Yeah.
[Dr. Rose]
Why would I carry, um, fabricated wounds?
-Right?
-Okay.
-[Dr. Rose] Yeah?
-Yeah.
I'm gonna face him.
I'm gonna face what he did.
I am not a journalist.
It's going to be really hard
to dig out the truth,
and I have to try and stay objective.
[line ringing]
To understand his true pathology,
my gut tells me I should track down
the only surviving prosecutor,
Stephen Kay.
I am just giving you a call.
I am directing a documentary
about Charles Manson.
Okay, um... Hmm.
I've reached out to victims' relatives.
It's actually kind of a different approach
than you might think.
But people seem to not want to talk to me
because I'm
Charles Manson's granddaughter.
I see.
Okay, thank you.
Now that I'm Manson's granddaughter,
people assume that I'm not so moral.
[speaking gibberish]
But I'm the same person as I was
before I found out
I'm Manson's granddaughter.
I have not changed.
I'm not really sure
what I'm getting myself into,
but I'll take anybody.
[pensive music playing]
I tracked down a friend
of my grandfather's.
Charlie called him "Black Wolf."
He's an ex-con,
someone who's lived in the underworld.
He prefers to keep his face off camera,
and I'm nervous to meet someone
who's come face-to-face with Manson.
You made a promise to stay in the shadows
for my grandfather.
So, what made you
make this exception for me?
[Black Wolf] I think
'cause you're his blood, for one thing.
And I think that your intentions are pure.
Uh, seemingly to me.
[Sophia] What was
your relationship with him?
[Black Wolf]
I wrote Charlie in 2007, just a letter,
included, uh, my phone number.
And then he called.
He would call, probably,
three times a week, even more.
And then, from there,
we had a relationship for 10 years.
This is all the phone calls
that I had with Charles,
for you to listen to and... learn more.
How many of these calls are on here?
[Black Wolf]
Close to 800. I think, like, 780, yeah.
It'll take some time.
[suspenseful music playing]
[phone beeps]
[prison operator] [on phone]
Your call is being connected.
[Black Wolf] [on phone]
How's it goin', man?
[Manson] Hanging on, man. Hanging on.
[Black Wolf] Yeah. I wanted to ask you
if, if there was any way
that I could be
a member of your family?
[Manson] I ain't got no Family.
I got stuck with that tag.
-[Black Wolf] No, I know it.
-[phone beeps]
[Manson] So, they labeled me
as the devil long ago.
And they played me for that all my life.
There's a whole lot involved
that never got told...
that never got spoke.
[Black Wolf] You should tell it.
[phone beeps]
[Manson] My mother, uh, threw me away.
She got rid of me.
She didn't want me.
I spent from the age of
nine years old locked up.
I got uh... busted and put in
a reform boys' school in Indiana...
uh, for being incorrigible.
Most people were controlled by
their parents, right?
[Black Wolf] Yeah.
[Manson] And, but I had no parents.
So who was I controlled by?
[Black Wolf] The system definitely.
[Manson] Yeah.
You know, that's what made me.
[unsettling music playing]
[Sophia] Charlie could be
playing Black Wolf,
or telling him the story
no one wanted to hear.
I've gotta go to Indiana Boys' School
to see for myself.
I submitted my family's DNA to unlock
my grandfather's sealed records.
I hope to find the truth in them.
[airplane droning]
Every time I bring this up,
you seem to be afraid for me.
[Daniel] [on phone] I want you
to be happy and healthy, and...
you know, this is not really
a happy, healthy subject matter.
Unfortunately, we're all raised
by dysfunctional people
who were raised by dysfunctional people,
and... you've been
so battered down by the way
the trajectory of all
of our lives have been.
You are a very, very resilient person.
You're doing the right things,
and you're going in the right directions.
[gate beeping]
OK, now I'm going to pat you down.
Would you mind taking off your coat?
[newscaster]
In this neighborhood in Indianapolis,
he had his first brush with the law
for stealing a bicycle, and then a car.
He was 14.
He was sent to the Indiana Boys' School.
He wouldn't conform to the rules
and was moved
from one dormitory to another.
Manson compiled 28 bad conduct reports
in two years.
[psychologist] He was a, as I described,
perhaps, 20 years ago,
a chronic discipline problem
even at that time.
[Sophia] So, this is the school.
[Bob Gipson] Yes, didn't change much.
Uh, these are
the original desks right here
that was used back in the day.
[Sophia] Even when
my grandfather was here?
-[Bob] Yes.
-[Sophia] Wow.
[Bob] Let me give you guys
a moment to, uh...
-Thank you.
-...do what you need to do.
-Appreciate it.
-[Dan Macallair] Thank you, Bob.
So, what I'd like to do is
just go through the records.
My grandfather's records?
Your grandfather's record
while he was here.
I wanna emphasize something,
that this is rather unusual
that we've got the full set of records.
Very often, the in-institutions
will destroy them after a period of time.
Understand that this is
only part of the story,
and it's part of the story that's told
by the institution itself.
Would the institution sanitize?
Yes, I was just gonna use that word.
-Okay.
-So, yes.
So, this is somewhat
of a sanitized version.
This is, uh, March 31st, 1949.
So, this is his commitment order.
Um, "Charles was referred
to the juvenile court, 1948,
"by the police department who discovered
"that he had stolen a bicycle,
entered a grocery store,
and stolen an automobile."
[Dan] Mm-hmm.
"Charles said he was very unhappy at home
"and that he thought of running away.
"He said his mother was continuously
becoming intoxicated
and was promiscuous."
-Wow.
-[Dan] Mm-hmm.
[Sophia] "Statement of Boy Being Punished.
"I asked that corporal punishment
be administered to Charles Manson.
Offense: Escape."
In '49, so it's, like,
the first year he was here.
Yeah, so they were--
called it "paddling,"
which was common form of punishment
in institutions like this at the time.
[Sophia] He would talk
about this in interviews.
[Tom] All the pain
that you've caused people,
-all the anguish you've caused--
-Oh. Oh, I don't know pain.
I don't know pain.
I have no depth of pain.
I have no depth of suffering.
I haven't been punished by you all my life
since I was 10 years old.
I've been in every reform school
you got across the country
and used to lay down
and have to get my a*s whipped
'til I couldn't walk.
Tell me about some pain.
[Sophia] "Number of strokes given, 10.
-Was skin cut or bruised? No."
-[Dan] Yeah.
[Sophia] Do you believe it
when they say "mild"?
[Dan] Uh... [laughs]
There would've been a tendency to, um...
sometimes minimize the severity
of the, of the punishment.
These would've been, in-in a case
where a more serious infraction,
usually running away.
And that was his thing. He was--
I think he tried 18 times
when he was here.
The only way to keep the kids
in the institutions
was to... uh, punish them severely.
[Sophia] "The big debate was,
should they beat the boys
"with their trousers on or off.
"When the leather strap had no effect,
"the guards would take
them out in the cornfield
and beat the piss out of them."
I didn't realize it was that bad.
[Dan] Here's a story
about them with the escape.
Mm-hmm. "This kid escaped
Indiana Boys' School...
and was interviewed in--"
[Dan] With Charlie.
-Oh, really?
-[Dan] Yeah.
[Sophia] "Manson said,
'I was kicked in the back
"for not working fast enough
on the school farm.'
"He also had been forced to hold
other boys who were being thrashed.
"Quote, 'You haven't got much choice
when they tell you to do it,
but you'd rather take it
yourself than hold them.'"
[Dan] Mm-hmm.
[Sophia] "'A boy who refuses
to hold another boy for beating
receives a beating himself,' Manson said."
He'd only know that
if he refused to hold him down.
[Dan] Yeah.
[Sophia] I can't really think of anyone...
any boy or any minor
who would deserve any of this,
no matter what they've done.
It's just inhumane.
Your grandfather was
a product of the failure
of the juvenile justice system.
He wasn't born that way.
He-He is a product of the, of the system,
and it's a system that failed.
[Bob] This, this part here
has not changed.
This housing unit here
would've, would've housed kids
from 14 to 16 years old.
35 to 40 students would've been in here.
[Sophia] f*ck.
Was there any sexual as*ault?
[Bob] Occasionally.
Some of the biggest challenges is, um,
if you had a, a more dominant student,
he might prey on a younger student.
[Sophia] One of the things that I read
was that my grandfather was g*ng-r*ped...
-[Dan] Mm-hmm.
-...in... a boys' school.
I think he said it was this one.
He was small stature.
He was 15 years old.
So, he would've been
vulnerable to as*ault.
The reality of life here,
I mean, it wasn't easy.
[Sophia] But also,
he r*ped a boy at knifepoint?
That was always a problem
in a facility like this.
His argument was
he was protecting himself, but, like--
Yeah.
What a cruel thing to have to
feel like you're protected
by being the aggressor.
Unfortunately, too, too many situations,
kids coming through
institutions like this,
they learn their lessons in survival.
Social workers in those institutions
are identifying one of
the major problems for him
and his adjustment is the fact
that he spent so much time
in an institution like this
that he wasn't prepared
to enter the outside world.
Yeah, my, my dad--
I was raised with my dad telling me
about his time
at a military reformatory school.
And, um...
Yeah.
[Daniel] When I was eight years old...
I went to Mt. Lowe Military Academy
in Pasadena, California.
Uh...
It was a, a hell hole.
It was, it was the worst of the worst.
It was Lord of the Flies.
Kids would come around the corner
and walk up to me and say,
"Hey, I'll suck your d*ck
if you suck my d*ck."
I was just a kid.
I was like, "What's a d*ck?"
Uh...
First thing the commandant did
was molest me.
Second thing, they gave me a g*n.
So, I shot the sh*t out of that target.
And I was so good that they took me
to other military schools to show me off.
And if they would've asked me
why I was such a good shot,
I would've told 'em that I pictured
that commandant who molested me
and that-- my parents on that target
for sending me to that God-awful place.
[somber music playing]
[Sophia sobbing]
[Dr. Rose] What's coming up, Sophia?
[Sophia] Um...
I think first time
he told me he was molested
was when I was a kid, too.
And so-- But it was out of, like...
He would train me. He would be like,
"Has anyone touched you?"
-[Dr. Rose] Okay.
-You know, he just wanted to make sure
-we weren't touched.
-[Dr. Rose] Okay.
[Sophia] He trained me
to be, like, a survivor and a fighter
because of his pain.
[Dr. Rose] So, that would be
the intergenerational trauma.
The hand-me-down
of maladaptive coping responses.
Because I went through something,
I'm going to introduce it
[chuckles] to you to prepare
you to not go through it.
But in order to introduce it to you,
I also have to introduce
the trauma element of it, right?
And send your brain into survival mode.
I am not, by any means,
questioning your dad's love for you.
I-I believe it.
But what happens when we are loved
from wounded spaces.
Something else
that I'm hearing in you too, um,
have you ever heard
the term "parentified child"?
-Just from you.
-[Dr. Rose] [laughs] Okay.
If you tell any child, like,
"This happened to me, and that happened,"
like, you see the person you love
in pain and I wanna fix it.
And so, we go into a reverse role
with the parents.
Now, I feel a higher sense
of responsibility over you, right?
Start to think about boundaries
around this whole process
of unraveling to become.
'Cause you're in the process
of becoming the first generation
who will not follow the same patterns.
You're the one
who's breaking generational dynamics
and saying, "I'm going to work on myself."
"I am because they weren't."
That is our mantra.
"I am because they weren't."
[Daniel] In 2017, I fell into this abyss.
[camera shutter clicks]
I just basically said to God,
"Until you reveal to me who my father is,
"I'm quitting everything.
"I'm not working.
I'm not loving. I'm not living.
I'm not doing anything.
I will sleep under a park bench."
And so, I did that, I shut down.
I didn't do anything.
I just always wanted to know
who your dad was.
[Daniel] Yeah...
I never knew him, but I know him.
You know what I mean?
I am him, but I'm not him.
[Sophia] I always felt
similar to my dad, too.
Was that just an echo of their trauma,
or was that Charlie whispering to us
through our genes?
If I keep digging, what will I find?
[newscaster 1] The sensational headlines
quickly turn from the Sharon Tate murders
to the trial of Charles Manson.
[newscaster 2] Seven murders
and conspiracy are charged
against four defendants,
requiring 27 different verdicts.
[newscaster 3]
The case has since become a bizarre
national and international sensation,
attracting the attention of everyone
from President Nixon to the curious people
who sit in the courtroom
where the case is being heard.
No one in this entire metropolis was safe.
Animals don't treat
even their own kind like
these people did our people.
[Daniel] When I was 10 years old...
1970, his picture was
all over the front page.
[ominous music playing]
He was everywhere.
I think my mother knew
that my dad is Charles Manson.
I remember my mother
cornered me in a bathroom...
[voice breaking] beat the hell outta me.
The vacuum cleaner cord, the plug end...
for about five minutes.
I didn't do anything.
It was just her venting her shame
and her rage out on me.
[somber music playing]
[birds chirping]
[Sophia] I'm doing some research now,
and the similarities
between my dad and Charles
are kind of eerie from birth.
Charles Manson was born
to a teenage mother
and a father that disappeared.
My dad was born in 1959 to a mother
who was a teenager, was 17 years old,
and a father who just disappeared.
Charles Manson was my age
when he met my grandmother,
and he went by the name of Charlie Dear.
Um, he had just gotten
out of prison for pimping.
The story goes that
they met at a bus stop,
and they had a one-night,
possibly two-night stand.
When my grandmother
realized she was pregnant,
Charlie was back in prison.
He was sentenced 10 years
for forging a $37.50 check.
It's sad to think he could've
stayed with our family,
but maybe he was more comfortable
with the only family he had ever known.
[Jeff Melnick] Manson, essentially,
he's in jail from the time he's 12
'til he gets out in 1967.
There's a larger cultural truth here,
which is that, like,
incarceration breaks people.
[pensive music playing]
Manson's a gr--
like, a great example of that,
of, like, being incarcerated
at a young age
means you're gonna carry stuff out
that's gonna make it
really impossible for you
to be, like, normally functioning.
And I think he would
say that in interviews.
He would be like,
"I'm not from your world."
-[Jeff] Right.
-"I was incarcerated my whole life.
-I'm not from your world."
-[Jeff] That's right. Oh, yeah.
Oh, he literally put it
in the language of "family."
[Charles Manson]
I've been in jail all my life.
All the men in the joint raised me up,
told me what to do,
what was right and wrong.
Told me when to sit down, stand up.
I just did everything I was told.
-[Jeff] He performed a lot.
-Yeah.
[Jeff] But when he said that,
I don't think he was performing.
Yeah.
How and when did he create
the Manson Family?
[Jeff]
So, Manson comes out of jail in 1967,
hits San Francisco Summer of Love.
This is the kind of, like,
coming out summer
of the counterculture, of their practices,
which include free love.
Manson, he's got big eyes.
He's not, like, standard hippie age,
he's in his 30s.
And he starts meeting women
in the Bay Area...
and kind of gathering his tribe.
[Sophia] What were that women like?
Did they come from good families?
Did they have family of their own?
If you read the press coverage
of the Manson women,
they were almost, you know,
unanimously depicted
as these, like, witches,
these terrible, like, purposefully evil,
hypersexualized druggies.
But I really resist that.
I'm, I'm really interested
in thinking about them
as abused women.
Mostly, they're runaways.
Young women who found their way out,
as so many young people did in that era,
to California as a place
that seemed safer, freer.
They moved down
to Southern California in '68,
fairly well established
what we call the "Family."
[Ruby Pearl] They call it "The Family,"
they're brothers and sisters.
They just lived anywhere
they felt like it.
They were constantly taking dope
and drinking wine and stealing cars.
[Manson] It was a spiritual,
divine intervention.
It just happened, man.
You know I didn't go out
and kind of get...
enough people to take membership cards
and all, ya know.
There was nobody joining.
We were just like uh...
we're sitting around smoking grass...
bullshitting and playing music man.
[Reporter] Well, what kind of guy
was Charlie?
He's a good person. Very good person.
Kinda had a peace.
[newscaster] He named her "Squeaky"
and she became one of the first members
of his so-called Family.
[camera shutter clicks]
[Jeff] There's an amazing documentary
that came out
that had amazing footage from Spahn Ranch
where, you know,
like, Lynette Fromme is, like, like,
posed there with, like, a r*fle, you know.
And she really wants to vibe,
like, scary, chaotic energy.
[Sophia] Though not involved
in the Tate-LaBianca murders,
she served over 30 years
for attempting
to assassinate President Ford
to protest environmental destruction.
Can I ask if I can record this?
-[Lynette Fromme] [on phone] Yes.
-Okay, thank you.
I, I wanna start from the, the beginning.
[Lynette]
With Charlie, we were a very...
cohesive female energy.
We were going day to day,
and we were opening ourselves up
to that experience
of pretty much the universe.
[chuckles softly]
Most of us wanted to be with Charlie.
I don't think there was
any doubt about that.
He thought the more
people became part of it,
the better it would be.
[soft music playing]
[Sophia] I know other Manson girls
have much darker memories
of my grandfather.
I contacted Dianne Lake,
also known as "Snake,"
who was 14 when she joined the Family.
[Alexandra "Allie" Orton] [on phone]
Are you in a space where you feel okay
about tomorrow?
-Yeah.
-[Allie] Yeah?
[voice breaking] Yeah, it's always
gonna be a little tough. Um...
It's the first time meeting a victim.
[Allie] I wish for you, you don't have
to wear this so heavy on your shoulders.
Like, you take on so many people's
struggles to try to understand them.
Well, listen, hang in there, okay?
-[Sophia] Okay, thank you.
-[Allie] Alright, thank you.
-[Sophia] Talk soon. Bye.
-[Allie] Bye.
[Sophia] How did you meet my grandfather?
I had a really big disconnect
with my parents.
And then, I had this, um...
this acid trip where I, I heard God
tell me it was time for me to leave home.
I hitchhiked to LA
and shortly after I got there,
I go to this party.
Lynette comes out...
"Dianne! Charlie!
Dianne is here!" You know?
And gives me a big embrace.
And Charlie gets up
from the, you know, the circle,
offers me, you know,
a sip of his root beer
and was totally enamored
with him, you know?
I mean, here I was loved, embraced.
Charlie took me to the bus that night
and made love to me
like I had never experienced
before in my life.
I felt truly loved as a woman, you know,
and not just a kid
being taken advantage of.
So, um, I hopped on the bus.
That's when we got
connected to Spahn Ranch.
-Charlie would play the guitar...
-[Sophia] Mm-hmm.
[Dianne "Snake" Lake]
...and we would, you know, sing along.
Charlie had this way of combining music,
things from the Bible,
things from Buddhism.
He had this ability
to weave all that together,
so that it sounded really,
ooh, special and--
Like, he had a special inside gift.
That was kind of his hold on us.
I think he got a Messiah complex.
[Jeff] Manson is generally,
and his Family, are generally understood
as part of the counterculture,
but they're really like,
they've taken a ladle and just kind of,
like, scooped the top, you know, surface.
He gets the free love part, for sure.
He gets the drug part, for sure.
But, like, this was a commune
that was organized
for the benefit of one man.
He was a con man, you know.
He was a manipulator.
He was approaching them not with empathy
or with, you know, solidarity,
but with this notion that he could
get from them what he wanted.
So, they steal, they sell drugs,
they also creepy crawl.
And that's the one crime that, um,
I think folks don't talk about enough.
Manson and some of the girls,
and whoever was around up at night
would go out in a crew,
in a couple cars, and just pick a house
where the people were sleeping.
They would break into houses
in-- around the LA area,
and they'd literally go in
and rearrange the furniture and leave.
Like, they would change enough,
so that the folks
would wake up and know,
"We've been invaded."
[Catherine "Gypsy" Share] When he
started taking the girls on creepy crawls,
he was actually getting 'em used to,
you know, burglaries
and calling it something cute.
[Jeff] As part of his
patriarchal control of the Family,
Manson, uh, is a trip master.
[sinister music playing]
I mean, it was very much tied up
with his sexual control of the family.
Like, he would get people tripping wildly,
and then arrange,
you know, various couplings.
When I was with Charlie, we took...
anywhere between 30 and 40 trips
on-on acid alone.
That's not counting
all psilocybin and mescaline
and little opium.
[Barbara Hoyt] They went through
their acid trips together.
They went through their
group sex things together.
But it was always Charlie's will.
Everyone was subservient
to Charlie's will no matter what.
He was the father.
[Jeff] Manson is trying
to, uh, advance his music career
through the vehicle of his--
the women of his family
by making them, you know, available,
um, to a wide range of music industry men.
Was he pimping you guys at the time?
-Kind of. For favors.
-Hmm.
You know, it wasn't
outright, like, for money,
but it was definitely for favors.
[Catherine] Charlie invited myself
and another, uh, young lady, Gale,
to go swimming at Dennis Wilson's house.
[Dianne] Come on! The Beach Boys?!
They were, you know,
they were, like, on a par
with The Beatles at that point.
These are, like, central guys
in the music industry.
Terry Melcher's a major producer.
They were going out to Spahn Ranch
and having sex with yo--
really young women
because they knew that Charlie
would sort of, like, curate that for them.
[Charles] I didnt come to Terry Melcher.
He come to me with money in his hand.
He offered me. I didnt ask him.
[Jeff] He had kind of puffed himself up
with this new idea about himself.
He was Daddy of this family.
He was gonna be a famous rock star,
and there were plenty of people around him
who thought he was really talented.
Neil Young is one of the few people
who's been willing to go on record
saying that Manson had a lot of talent.
And so, when he went
for his official music audition
with Terry Melcher in a studio,
Manson thinks he's gonna
get a, a record contract.
And then he doesn't.
And I think that really
sends Manson around the bend.
When I went into
Dennis Wilson's, uh, Beach Boys,
I said, "You owe me money for music.
Where's the money?"
They put me
onto the Italian business manager.
He-- I said, "Don't I get something
for this music here?"
And he said, "No, you get nothing."
He said, "Sue me."
I said, "I won't sue you.
I'll b*mb your car, man.
I'll blow your house up."
[Sophia] I'm speaking to Ed Roach.
We were texting this morning.
He was the Beach Boys photographer.
-[camera shutter clicks]
-Really good friends with Dennis Wilson.
[camera shutter clicks]
My dad and I, we loved The Beach Boys.
So, this is kind of crazy.
[turn signal clicking]
Kind of excited.
-This is you? Wow.
-[Ed Roach] Yeah, that's me.
That's, uh, 1971 or '73 maybe, uh,
sh**ting The Beach Boys with Dennis.
These photos that you're picking up,
this was, uh, the very first time,
the only time that I ever
went up to Spahn Ranch, uh.
God bless the timing of things
because my wife and I
were so f*cking sexual,
were so crazed, uh,
that we very easily could've been
sucked up into the Family.
We were-- weren't even looking at the fact
we're flying into m*rder zone central,
and it happens to be
with one of the people that's...
-[Sophia] Yeah.
-...intimately involved in it.
And then, uh,
the next night, I met Charlie.
Dennis and my ex-wife
were sitting at the piano
where they were great together.
Two minutes later, the door flung open
and Charlie went,
"I just come from the moon!"
And I'm watching Charlie
looking at my wife like,
"I wanna f*ck you," you know?
And I'm looking at Charlie like,
"I am gonna f*ck you up."
And Dennis is instigating
this whole thing with the piano.
And Charlie and I started
to lunge at each other
and Dennis just jumped up,
and he said, "This isn't happening here."
And he took Charlie out the door.
[Sophia] So, Dennis took Charles--
-God, you got pretty eyes.
-Thank you.
So, Dennis took Charles
outside of the house
and what happened?
[Ed] Dennis thought that he could
give him $300 for a song
and Charlie was just
gonna go away, you know?
It was not the most auspicious way
to meet a guy
that probably could've
offered me enough women
that I would've given up
my wife and, uh... [chuckles]
You know, God only knows.
[Sophia] How come all
of these musicians were so okay
with someone so scary?
You know, kinda the women
made things easier
to accept how extra scary he was.
I mean, I looked at the women back then,
and I thought, "God, Dennis,
what's wrong with you?
I would never f*ck women that early."
But I look at them now and I think,
"God, would I love to f*ck you."
I'm only kidding. I'm only kidding, bo.
Boy, I wish we had a fan.
[Allie] It's just because of
the sound but we could....
Okay, alright. No, f*ck it, f*ck it.
We can survive, right?
Yeah, we can, we can do it.
[Ed] This won't be
the last time we sweat together.
-Yeah, let's--
-[Ed] Hey, really? [cackles]
We can do this.
[Ed] I think I just got a commitment,
gentlemen. Get that on camera.
No no no...
No way.
-[Ed] Boy, you...
-[steady electronic whine]
-Well, thank you for...
-[Ed] You're welcome.
...telling me all these stories.
-I have a lot, a lot to think about.
-[Ed] You're welcome. You know, I mean--
-[Sophia] Yeah.
-I like doing it.
-[Sophia] Yeah, thank you so much.
-You're welcome, honey.
[Sophia] I really appreciate it.
Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it.
[exhales] Cool.
[Ed] Cool!
Who's buying me a beer?
He was, like, one of
the most disgusting people
I've ever spoken to in my life.
So naive that I could try
and make this positive spin
out of my grandfather being friends
with The Beach Boys
and being an artist.
[sniffles]
But they're all f*cking pigs.
They're all disgusting.
[water running]
[line ringing]
[ringing continues]
Every time I ask my dad to be present
at an interview or filming, he...
completely...
psychs me out.
[line ringing]
[Daniel] [on voicemail]
Hi, sorry, I missed your call.
This is Dan. Please leave a name--
[Sophia] He says he doesn't
wanna be there, doesn't wanna do it,
doesn't wanna hear about anything,
doesn't wanna learn.
I literally grew up with my dad
telling me he wishes
he knew who his father was.
So, all I'm trying to do
is figure out who his father is,
so that he can know.
And he gives me sh*t
and he hangs up on me,
and he doesn't wanna be on set.
[somber music playing]
But if I want to understand
what aspects of my grandfather
my dad and I may have inherited...
I need to know what exactly led
to the family's 1969 m*rder spree.
I was up until 2:00 in the morning
just reading transcripts and...
doing a crash course,
reviewing everything I've read.
And the deeper you get into it,
the more confusing it becomes.
[sniffles]
I'm not my grandfather and I'm not my dad.
I'm not going to self-sabotage.
[Sophia exhales deeply]
I'm not my grandfather.
I'm not my dad. [sniffles]
And I won't self-sabotage.
[Allie] You won't.
You know it, right?
Yeah.
Do you think anyone
was telling Charlie that, though?
No...
But your life is different.
-Okay, take one. AV mark.
-[clapboard claps]
-[Sophia] Hi.
-[chuckles]
Finally, Sophia.
-Hi, Sophia. I'm Steve.
-[Sophia] Nice to meet you.
I can properly shake your hand now.
[both laugh]
Um, I just wanted to clarify
'cause you asked me in the other room
how I got into this project.
I found out my grandfather
is Charles Manson three years ago.
Oh.
[Sophia] I think--
We spoke over the phone.
I've-I've mentioned that to you.
I just wanted to remind you.
-And I have to tell you...
-[Sophia] Mm-hmm.
...that the reason
I didn't return your phone calls
when you identified who you were
'cause I thought, "Oh, my gosh.
This person's gonna be
an apologist for Charles Manson."
It's a, it's a slippery subject.
If I try and gain an understanding
of these people,
it's really easy for people to accuse me
of being an apologist for him.
All I wanna do is learn.
Well, let me say that I know these people
probably better than anyone.
I've proceeded
four Tate-LaBianca m*rder cases.
Hinman and Shea case.
Sixty parole hearings for the five
Tate-LaBianca m*rder defendants.
I've been threatened with death
by Manson three times.
I've been threatened
by "Squeaky" and "Sandy,"
so I know these people.
I know what makes 'em, uh, tick.
You know, what-what turned
this small-time con man
into a, a m*rder*r, uh,
I have my theories on-on that.
Manson, when he was in prison,
he thought that the Blacks
were more together than the whites.
He thought that they were gonna take over.
In June of 1969, he said to his followers,
"We're gonna have to show
Blackie how to do it."
Manson had just become obsessed
with the idea of a race w*r.
He had machine g*n
mounted on a dune buggy.
He had a g*n room at the ranch.
Had a bazooka.
Manson was preparing for w*r.
[Sophia] I know a lot
of things are going wrong
for my grandfather that spring.
His music career went bust.
He's desperate for money.
But what would make him
want to start an all-out race w*r?
[Jeff] One of the ways
I'd really like to challenge Bugliosi
is he has this notion that, like,
Manson from jump street,
like, had this whole plan
about, you know, starting a race w*r
that he called Helter Skelter.
I don't think that's true.
I think, ultimately, what changes is
Charlie's mental health.
[Sophia] So, when did
it start going downhill?
[Dianne]
Well, he-he was getting really frantic
about getting this whole survival mode.
We were trying to make money
to get to the desert,
to Barker Ranch.
And they were stealing Volkswagen bugs
to turn into dune buggies.
The Straight Satans,
they were a Simi Valley motorcycle g*ng.
They started coming by,
and I think Charlie
kind of encouraged that
because they were offered protection,
and knives came on the scene.
g*ns.
And "Tex" came on the scene.
He had been, like,
a drug dealer in Hollywood.
He definitely brought
higher level speed or whatever.
We, as a Family, we smoked
marijuana pretty regularly.
We took LSD pretty regularly.
But as far as other drugs,
as a Family, we did not do them.
Tex did.
[Sophia] Part of this doc is
me dealing with my dad,
being the daughter of someone who might
have some mental health issues as well.
My dad's health deteriorates
a lot when he gets stressed...
and it's pretty f*cking bad actually.
I'm like a disowned daughter.
When Tex Watson comes up
on the scene,
things feel like they go downhill.
And that's one of the things I don't feel
enough people talk about is Tex Watson
who slaughtered
all of those people, most of them.
For all the, all the talk we do about
Manson being able to control anybody,
to hypnoti-- you know, brainwash,
I don't think he had
Tex Watson under his control.
[Sophia] Because I am Manson's blood,
I was able to secure a meeting
with George Stimson,
an insider who's connected key events
between Tex and my grandfather
leading up to the murders.
Is it okay if I ask you about
your relationship with "Blue" or no?
She's my partner over 30 years.
[interviewer] If you had your way today,
where would Charles Manson be?
He would be in the United Nations.
I have absolute respect for him.
He doesn't lie.
[George Stimson] Sandra Good,
"Blue" talked me into, uh, putting myself
in his service, and that's what I did.
Visited him almost 200 times in prison.
Wrote a book about him.
I've just been intertwined with him
since about 1990.
What led up to
the Waverly and Cielo Drive murders?
They were the culmination
of a series of criminal incidents
that began on July 1st, 1969
when Charles "Tex" Watson ripped off
the marijuana dealer, Bernard Crowe.
Uh, he took the money and ran.
Crowe wouldn't have anything of it.
He wanted his money then,
he wanted everybody involved in it.
He wasn't gonna be reasonable at all.
Tex has a little problem.
He has a little problem.
He gives me a g*n. He cant do it.
I have to go deal with his problem.
[Charlie Rose] Which is?
I have to go sh**t somebody for him.
-[Charlie Rose] Who'd you sh**t?
-Oh, I had to sh**t "LotsaPoppa."
[George] Charlie thought he was dead,
and he told Tex Watson,
"I k*lled this guy for you.
You owe me a favor.
"And when it's time for me
to collect the favor,
you're gonna pay it."
[Sophia] That's where I feel
his mental health started deteriorating
is that level of stress of like,
"f*ck, I just shot a guy."
He thinks he k*lled him.
'Cause it led to a chain of events
that did destroy everything.
What happened?
[George] Bobby Beausoleil got involved
with the mescaline deal
between Gary Hinman
and the Straight Satans.
Bobby k*lled Gary Hinman.
About a week after the m*rder,
Bobby Beausoleil got arrested
driving Gary Hinman's car.
I can't let somebody
that's with me stay in jail.
It, it just-- You know,
it's not in my makeup, man.
I got to get my brother out of jail.
[Sophia] Charlie Manson
goes up to Tex Watson
and says, "Get a brother out of jail."
Yes, it's a payback thing.
It's an underworld thing.
It's favors owed and favors paid.
"I want Bobby outta jail.
You owe me for sh**ting Crowe."
However you do it, you do it.
I don't care how ya do it,
but don't bring it to me.
[George] So, Tex Watson, he goes out
and, uh, commits some atrocious murders
in an attempt to make it look like
Bobby Beausoleil wasn't the k*ller.
The real k*ller of Gary Hinman
was still at large.
The followers wanna change the script
of, of what really happened.
Manson could've cared less
about Bobby Beausoleil.
He was a on-again, off-again
member, uh, of the family.
There's been some speculation
that Hinman was a drug dealer.
He was not.
Manson got Watson aside
and told Watson, "k*ll everyone there."
And he told the girls,
"Well, Watson knows the layout,
so do whatever Tex tells you."
[Sophia]
Tex described the scene himself.
"We took lots of speed,
especially me and Sadie.
"She was a speed freak,
"and we were flying high
the night of the Tate murders.
"It was a private stash,
and Charlie didn't know about it.
He wouldn't have liked it."
[Stephen Kay] They drove up
to the, the front gate.
Watson got out
and cut the, the phone wires
'cause he didn't want anybody calling out.
[Sophia] Tex Watson, Susan Atkins,
Patricia Krenwinkel, and Linda Kasabian.
They go into the Tate residence...
and commit a m*ssacre.
[camera shutter clicks]
Tex Watson shot Steven Parent.
[Stephen] Wojciech Frykowski
was asleep on the sofa.
Watson woke him up at gunpoint
and told him that he was the devil there
to do the devil's work.
[Sophia] "He tied up
Folger, Sebring, and Sharon
before stabbing them to death."
[camera shutter clicks]
"Question: 'How do you feel
about what you did?'
"Answer: 'It was fun tearing up
the Tate house, okay?'
"Question: 'It was fun?'
"Answer: 'You should have seen it.
"People were running around like chickens
with their heads cut off.'
Defendant is laughing."
[Stephen] Sharon Tate,
eight and a half months pregnant.
Susan Atkins looked at her and said,
"Look, b*tch, I don't care
about you or your baby.
"You're gonna die,
and you better be ready for it.
And I don't feel a thing about it."
And then, Susan Atkins
proceeded, uh, to stab her 16 times.
And then, Watson came in and he hung her
from a high beam, uh,
going over the, the living room.
The coroner said that she was hung
while she was still alive.
[Sophia] He's just telling
these whacked-out people
on amphetamines, speed, belladonna, acid,
"Take care of something."
-What did he expect?
-He doesn't live in expectation.
He stirred the pot.
He told 'em to do something.
He didn't anticipate like that.
[Sophia] The next night of murders,
Charlie gets more involved.
It's been hard to get my dad to hear
about his own father's culpability.
-[Daniel] Jessica. Nice to see you.
-[speaker] Your dad's here.
[Sophia] Yeah, obviously. [chuckles]
[Daniel speaking indistinctly]
But he agreed to come meet
Nikolas Schreck,
a friend of Charlie's
who spent decades defending him.
Charlie told Nik about the night's m*rder.
I wouldn't be doing this
if you didn't tuck me in every night
and tell me you wanted
to know who your father was.
Hi, I'm Nikolas. Nice to meet you.
Was he [Nik Schreck] there?
He's a researcher.
He spent 30 years talking to Grandpa.
He was a good friend of your dad's, so...
And then, we're gonna talk
about what he was culpable of,
what he is guilty of 'cause I think...
that's something we should know.
Well.. this..
...first of all, it's just his opinion.
He's not the foremost authority.
He doesn't know everything.
Who do you think is?
God.
[Sophia chuckles]
[Sophia] Rolling?
[crew member] Yep.
I know you don't wanna be here
when I talk about it,
but I think we have to talk about
what he is guilty of
and what he has done.
Because I don't wanna whitewash things,
and I, I wanna--
Well, when, when you say,
"What is Charlie guilty of
as far as his criminality?"
Larceny, auto theft.
He robbed constantly,
he-- breaking and entering.
That came naturally to him.
He was always looking for money.
In terms of the more famous phase
of his career,
his involvement with Cielo Drive,
I don't believe that Manson
was culpable for m*rder.
It was Tex Watson
and Linda Kasabian's idea.
Did Manson deny telling Watson
to go k*ll people or did he not?
[Nikolas Schreck] Oh, yes, he denied it,
but that doesn't mean that's the truth.
They came back to the ranch,
and the way Charlie described it to me,
he saw them coming back with blood.
Susan Atkins comes home to you
with bloody hands.
Yeah.
She says,
"Charlie, look what I did for you."
-Yeah. Said, "I give you the world."
-I give you the--
"I just k*lled myself,
and I give you the world."
So, how'd you react?
I said, "You dumb f*ck' c**t,
I already had the world.
You just put me back in jail again."
[Nikolas] So, it was a disaster
that they had k*lled a minor celebrity.
And he's terrified
because he's on probation thinking,
"These amateurs
are dragging me back in prison."
'Cause he knew it would fall back on him.
And he told me he'd never been
as frightened in his life
despite all of the things
he'd been through.
Now, the next night, the LaBiancas,
he went into the LaBianca home
and took money from Leno LaBianca,
a large amount of money.
He admitted that.
[newscaster 1] A day later, 15 miles away,
there was another m*rder
in the same brutal manner.
[newscaster 2] Leno LaBianca,
a supermarket owner,
and his wife had both
been stabbed to death,
repeated stab wounds.
On his body, the word "w*r"
had been carved in the chest.
Then, with blood, the k*ller had scrawled
the words, "Death to Pigs."
[Nikolas] Um,
he was guilty of going
into the LaBiancas' home
and robbing them,
which makes you culpable, technically.
He didn't k*ll them.
Do you believe that happened?
That he went to the crime scene?
I don't believe a word of anything.
If you're gonna take the implication
that Charlie was involved, yeah, okay.
But every person that was
in Charlie's cult in the beginning,
-the-the-- like, first--
-It wasn't a cult, number one.
Every person was arrested a minimum
of four times before they met Charlie.
Right, they were a bunch of criminals.
And all four of 'em were released.
I'm telling you, this is a squalid series
of g*ng murders
involving bikers and drug dealers.
With all due respect,
I think people who do this
are entertainment Manson people.
They don't really know the p-- the whole--
Then, you doubt, you doubt
everything that your father said?
Yes.
Well, here's where we have to part ways.
If you doubt
that your father ever told the truth
about these things, well, he did.
And I spoke to him for years,
quizzing him, interrogating him.
I-- In my opinion, I-I think that,
uh, still needs to be, um...
things need to be released,
more information.
And, uh, you know--
I'm not doubting
that things are covered up.
No, the fact, the fact
that they had to go all the way up
to the President of the United States
and have him say,
"Manson's guilty of m*rder"...
I'll never forget they were...
all so worried about the Manson case.
I knew exactly what we were doing
with Manson.
You've gotta win some things in the press.
...tells you that it was an operation.
[Nikolas] I understand that.
I just don't think that that's relevant
to these particular crimes.
-That's all.
-[Daniel] Well, I do.
The whole thing is just
a shitshow, and it's a lie.
The whole thing's a lie.
You're caught up in the biggest lie
in the history of lies.
-Okay, thank you very much.
-Fine. Thank you.
[door opens]
Isn't that what you expected?
[mellow music playing]
[Sophia] I was hoping my dad could...
listen to Nik.
Maybe he thinks he's inherited some evil
and he doesn't wanna believe
his dad is like that.
The more I learn, the more I,
the more I realize
I, I don't really have family.
I couldn't depend on my dad today.
I'm very f*cking alone.
[somber music playing]
It's hard, but I can't turn back now.
I faced the murders,
but it's the trial that cements
my grandfather's legacy.
[newscaster] All the elements are present
for one of the most sensational
m*rder trials in American history.
[Sophia] And convinces my grandmother
her 10-year-old son is evil.
[newscaster] Young girls, supposedly
under the spell of a bearded Svengali,
who allegedly masterminded
the seven murders.
The Manson trial is a circus.
You know, it's wild.
[newscaster] Lawyers who had never been
heard of before are now heard of.
[Vincent] Manson was seeking
to ignite Helter Skelter,
start the Black/white w*r
by making it look like
Black people had m*rder*d
seven Caucasian victims.
[Jeff] LA had had
a incredibly devastating race riot,
and so, then to have a prosecutor come up
and say, like,
"This weird little hippie guy
is trying to start a race w*r,"
it's like he found, you know,
his [snaps finger] aha moment.
[Vincent] Manson told his followers
that this would be a bloodbath,
and what happened on these
two nights you don't even see
in a horror movie.
Do you believe
in the Helter Skelter narrative?
No.
Lots of people have said
Manson spoke of a race w*r,
-that it was imminent.
-Mm-hmm.
[Sophia] But besides Linda Kasabian,
I can't find anyone
who said he wanted to start it.
Can you talk about her immunity agreement?
[Stephen] The prosecution,
they focused on Linda Kasabian
who was like the getaway driver,
but didn't physically participate
in the murders.
Her attorney said,
"If she's gonna testify,
she has to be given full immunity."
You know, Linda Kasabian
was on the, the stand for weeks
and the, the jury, they believed her.
I don't like all this chaos
or whatever the word is.
[intense music playing]
[group]
All around, all around, all around
I think there's, like, a turn
that happens during the trial,
and the women are so freaky.
[newscaster] They have been on this corner
for nearly five months,
and they vow to remain here
until Charlie is free.
[Jeff] You know, the girls are out
literally crawling
around the streets of LA.
They're performing outside the trial.
They're really trying to show
that they're just regular,
you know, young folks
who have some
unconventional ways about them
and not being able to, like, suppress
the anarchy in their hearts, you know?
[reporter] I noticed
that "X" in your forehead.
Why did you do that, may I ask?
The X just symbolizes our being X'd out
of this whole madness.
Why won't they let us testify?
[Lynette] [on phone]
So, we were trying to defend him,
but he didn't ask for that.
[reporter] When you saw
Mr. Manson this morning,
how did he look to you?
"Help!"
[Lynette] And in effect,
it made it worse for him.
[newscaster] All were found
guilty of m*rder in the first degree.
The prosecution in this case has used
this trial for political purposes.
[Sophia] Charles Manson's testimony.
"What you want is a fiend.
You want a sadistic fiend
because that is what you are."
The mass media and the public, uh,
have used it for entertainment purposes.
You dealt the hand.
You put me on LIFE magazine,
and had me convicted
before I walked in the courtroom.
"You only reflect on me
what you are inside of yourselves
"because I don't care
anything about any of you,
and I don't care what you do."
Uh, you might say I'm kinda like Satan.
I'm in so many different places at once.
I think he was giving people
what they wanted to see really.
[Charlie Rose] You were the--
one of the most infamous criminals...
-Of all time.
-...of all-- in the world.
He's playing for the interviews,
and he's playing for the public.
[gibberish] How many times
I got to go through...
[gibberish]
My curiosity gets a hold of me,
and I'm like,
"Is he leaning into this evil guy
'cause they started writing
about him as this evil person?"
On some level,
it's just, he looks the part.
Like, he's got the wild hair.
He's got the wild eyes.
He's got the beard.
He carves a swastika on his forehead.
It's like this very dramatic
physical presence.
Believe me,
if I started murdering people...
there'd be none of you left.
And so, for mainstream press coverage,
he's, like, the fulfillment
of the worst dream
that's been, you know,
prognosticated for years.
He plays the boogeyman.
He knows how to do it.
It would be very sharp
for one person to do all the things
that I'm gonna have to do...
to survive...
in you, and in you, and in you...
and in you too.
[Sophia] The thing about
my dad and my grandfather
is that they never had the tools
to heal their trauma.
So, when someone tells them
they have darkness in their nature,
they double down.
[line ringing]
My dad and I always argued
over sexism, over Manson,
but he started taking it
really personally.
[automated response] [on phone]
I'm sorry, but the person you called
has a voice mailbox
that has not been set up yet.
[gentle melancholic music playing]
[Sophia] And then, it all boiled over.
Tell me what you just said.
-[Daniel] No, you tell me.
-[Sophia] Yeah, tell me.
[Daniel] No, you tell me.
[Sophia] Do you wanna
call me those things again?
[Daniel] Because that's
what your trigger words are.
[Sophia] And what is it?
[Daniel] Yeah, those are
your trigger words.
-[Sophia] Call me, call me it right now.
-[Daniel] Those are your trigger words.
[Sophia] Call me a b*tch
and call me a c**t.
-[Daniel] Take me home, please.
-[Sophia] Call me. Call it me.
Don't stop being a sexist now.
[Daniel] Why are you parked in the road?
Why are you risking our lives right now?
[Sophia] Don't do that now.
Don't cop out now.
[Daniel] Why are you
risking our lives now?
[Sophia] Don't cop out now.
Don't cop out now. Tell me.
[Daniel] You better get out
of here right now, young lady.
-You're risking our lives.
-[Sophia] You hate me.
[Daniel] Because you're a f*cking idiot.
[Sophia] Yeah, okay.
[Daniel] And I regret
calling you my daughter
because you're a lying f*cking b*tch.
[Sophia] How-- What did I lie about?
[Daniel] Everything.
-[Sophia] What did I lie about?
-[Daniel] Take me home.
-Don't talk to me.
-[Sophia sighs]
[turn signal clicking]
[Sophia] Before I drop you off,
can I say something?
[Daniel] No.
Don't f*cking say a word to me.
[Sophia] I'm not mad at you.
[Daniel] I'm not mad at you either.
Don't f*cking say a word to me.
Drop me off on the corner.
I don't wanna ever talk to you again.
[Sophia] Don't say that.
-[Daniel] I don't-- f*ck--
-[Sophia] Don't say that.
-Don't say that.
-[Daniel] Just go on that corner.
-I don't wanna talk to you ever again.
-[Sophia] Don't say that.
Don't say that.
-[Daniel] Goodbye.
-[Sophia] No.
-[Daniel] Yeah.
-[Sophia] I'm not letting you.
-[Daniel] Goodbye.
-[Sophia] I'm not letting you
get out of the car with that.
-[Daniel] Stop. Right here.
-No-- I don't care.
I'm not mad at you. I don't care...
[Daniel] Stop, right here!
-No.
-[Daniel] Yes!
-No.
-[Daniel] Stop, right now!
-Don't do that.
-[car door opens]
[tense music playing]
[Sophia grunting]
[trainer speaking indistinctly]
[grunting continues]
Ever since I've been investigating...
[grunting continues]
...and I've been talking
about his dad to my dad...
[grunting continues]
...every time I find out
something new about his father
that's sad or heartbreaking or murderous
or guilty, whatever it might be...
[panting]
...my dad breaks a little.
And it's, like, the question is,
do you abandon and leave them
like everyone else
has abandoned and left them...
or do you stick it out?
I'm not talking with my dad.
I don't talk to my mom.
And I don't talk to anyone
who doesn't make me feel...
good or happy or, like, safe to be myself.
That's how I protect myself
'cause I feel safe alone.
[Charles] [on laptop]
You can't fight for peace.
[Charles/Sophia]
You cannot capture freedom.
[Charles chuckles]
[Charles] And it's just
a simple little old thing, man,
that any little baby
could figure out if we didn't...
Put cancer in their minds.
[Charles] ...put cancer in their minds.
If someone beats you with a whip
and you love the whip...
[chuckles] what's he doing?
He's making a fool outta himself.
[laughing]
[Sophia] I think it's interesting
that he was accused
of giving this incredibly a*usive love
to his cult followers.
And later, he's known for a*usive love.
I'm not saying
he's innocent of a*usive love.
I think he's capable of both,
but he's not, like, going around,
and I don't think
my dad is either, going like,
"I'm gonna make Sophia think I love her,
so that I can abandon her
and test her loyalty to me."
I think they're just troubled.
[Allie] I think there's something
interesting in all this
that is maybe, like,
below the surface in you.
There's something about this quote
that's doing something for you
that helps you feel better
about your grandfather,
and I'm curious what that is?
It's anti-w*r.
And I mean,
Stephen, the prosecutor, told me,
"All he wanted to do was start a w*r
and he never spoke of love."
Now, I've met enough people
to know that that's not true.
[Allie] I am not pushing against
that interpretation,
but what I'm going
to reflect back to you...
when you spend a bunch of time
listening to your grandfather,
or before, when you spend a bunch of time
listening to your dad...
I hear, sometimes, your dad.
Here's the thing... you're right.
I was raised by my dad,
and there's a lot of, like,
dad thoughts and dad-dad patterns.
I've always thought of myself and my dad
as very adaptable people.
You could put me...
in a room with someone
who k*lled somebody.
[Allie] I just-- Im sorry. You are
working so hard to help them sound better.
I don't know. I don't know.
But Dr. Rose also said
Manson was parentified
and my dad's parentified.
[Allie] I believe it.
But I guess what I'm saying is...
you are more than their patterns.
Don't you feel that in you?
[Sophia] Sure, yeah.
[gentle music playing]
My dad would tell me
his golden years were just raising me,
being a stay-at-home dad,
and I really felt that love, you know?
Every day.
Didn't mean he didn't get
emotionally turbulent.
Um...
he could flip on a dime.
Can be very, very generous and giving,
and then be very, very selfish.
So, he's always had this duality...
um, but I've always held on
to the loving part.
[Dianne] Part, right.
When you love somebody,
you forgive... far and wide,
the indiscretions
or the, you know, the bad stuff.
You know, you kinda just...
you don't dwell on it.
Did you feel, at the time,
that Charlie's love was genuine to you?
Yeah, I did.
I-I-I really did.
And I think he--
But on the other hand,
I also learned that, um,
that's what the p*mps had taught him.
And he was definitely,
you know, manipulative.
He did, you know, he did hurt me.
We talked about pimping me out.
And then, you know, he--
we hadn't had sex for a while,
and I really wanted him to want me,
you know, because of that first experience
and other experiences were just
so incredibly wonderful, right?
We went to this, you know,
this little gypsy caravan
that was halfway between the ranch house
and the back ranch house
and, um, you know,
took our clothes off and...
it wasn't the same.
He turned me around and...
sodomized me, you know, rather brutally,
and then said, "That's the way
we do it in prison," you know.
And left me crying.
And that was, you know,
I, I never asked him
for sex again, for sure.
And I, I don't think
we ever did have sex again.
That was really, that was really painful.
I-I didn't deserve that, you know.
Um...
I'm really sorry that happened to you.
I think you're a very strong person.
And so open and honest.
[Dianne] It was very hard for me to,
um, accept the fact that, you know,
that I had been-- I'd stayed.
I was really young, and I, I thought
Charlie would be mad at me if I left,
and I didn't know where to go.
I don't know.
When I hear them, they break my heart
'cause that's not the dad that I know.
-It's not what my dad and I stand for.
-He's-- But he's not your dad.
[Sophia] He can be so loving.
He can be so hateful.
There's no reason,
like, there's no reason for him
to have changed on a dime to you.
-We didn't deserve that.
-Right.
But then, they don't have the tools
to know what personality
or mental health thing
they're going through.
You know what? It's hard.
It's hard, I know.
[somber music playing]
[Sophia] I see similar patterns
in my dad and my grandfather.
Those sudden, almost manic changes.
But with my grandfather,
the panic of the murders
occurring took hold of him
in those final months.
To understand it better,
I'm going to meet Stephanie Schram,
his final girlfriend
before the murders of '69.
[Stephanie Schram] Have a seat.
[Sophia] Thank you so much.
It's so cute out here.
I was wondering, um,
if you could describe
the first time you met my grandfather.
I-I-I just wanted to be, like,
loose and free,
and, uh, a friend of mine was, um,
driving up to, uh, Nevada
to visit his, um, aunt and uncle.
And I-- So, he said,
"You wanna go with?"
And so, it was on that trip
coming back that I met Charlie,
and I was just taken with him.
I think it was just 'cause
I was, I was looking for something.
The night that I met him, he took me
to meet everybody at the ranch.
Everybody was very glad
to see Charlie back.
He was recruiting,
and I think that they thought
that he'd be--
he'd have several new,
uh, recruits with him,
and all he had was me, um.
The first night that we were there,
he told me go to sleep in--
there was a trailer.
And he said, you know, "Go there
and I'll, I'll be in there
in a little bit."
Well, evidently, I fell asleep and, um,
he went out,
and that's the night it happened.
-[Sophia] The LaBiancas.
-The-- Mm-hmm.
He didn't come back
to, to bed until, like, dawn.
[Sophia] Hmm.
Do you believe he said
those things to those people?
To go and do that? Yes.
[Sophia] Okay, what makes you think that?
[Stephanie]
Well, he did like m*rder school.
It was like a little class.
He'd tell you how to put a knife in
and what to do with it,
so that you were sure somebody
was dead and stuff like that.
And... that wasn't what I was there for.
Who was at that class?
All the girls, everybody.
Everybody that was--
It was out in the desert, you know.
-At Barker?
-[Stephanie] Yeah.
[Sophia] So, this was after the murders?
[Stephanie] Yeah. Yeah.
One of the things that Charlie
had us doing was digging holes.
"What are we doing this for?"
And he said, you know,
"Those were for us to hide in."
-[Sophia] Mm-hmm.
-And...
there had to be more than I knew
because I thought, "Why?
I'm not hiding from anybody."
But they, they were.
Um, and that's why it started
to get weirder and weirder to me.
So, that's,
-that's why I wanted to leave.
-[Sophia] Mm-hmm.
You don't need to, you know...
-[Stephanie] Yeah.
-...talk too in, in depth about it...
-[Stephanie] Yeah.
-...if it'll upset you,
but, like, how did you find yourself to--
or get yourself to escape?
[Stephanie] "Kitty" and I,
we would sit and talk about
how much we miss 31 Flavors ice cream.
We started talking about
Thanksgiving and turkey
and stuffing and everything.
[chuckling]
Sounds like you guys are hungry.
Yeah. We were most of the time.
-So hungry.
-Yeah.
Um, and so, I-I really--
I-- A lot of things are gone
outta my memory, you know,
bits and pieces of stuff.
But I-I-- We just decided
when everybody went to sleep,
this one night, we're just gonna take off.
-Yeah.
-And, um, and we did.
We had gotten to the top of the wash,
and they were looking for us
and we knew they were, so--
But we were at the top of the wash,
and the dune buggies
couldn't make it to the top.
So, we just walked until
down the road came a car
and it was the sheriff.
-[Sophia] Hmm.
-[Stephanie] So, "Help."
-[Sophia] Yeah.
-[Stephanie] [chuckles] You know?
[Allie] What made you
realize you had...
to escape that night?
What told you in your gut
you needed to get out?
[clears throat]
Charlie, um, had made it clear to us,
"Once you're here, don't go.
If you do go, we'll k*ll you, and--"
-[Sophia] Did he say that to you?
-[Stephanie] Yeah.
You know, I think he probably,
at some point, told me that.
I can't really remember, um, the occasion
or exactly what happened,
but I was well aware...
that once you're in the family,
you don't leave.
And I was afraid.
I was afraid that I'd end up dead.
And what was happening with those
people, people was not a, a commune.
It was a cult. [chuckles]
-Yeah.
-[Stephanie] So...
In what way?
[steady electronic whine]
[Stephanie] As a group, they...
worshiped Charlie.
They thought he was God.
They really did.
And I'm-- I think maybe,
at some point, I did too.
The girls were, um, sufficiently,
I'll use the word "brainwashed."
They were sufficiently
brainwashed by Charlie and they--
And that's...
You know, he pretty much
dictated their behavior.
Uh...
so I just followed along.
I always felt that, um,
Charlie had that much control
over their minds.
Really, I did.
A lot of this stuff is unbelievable.
[Sophia] Mm-hmm. It is unbelievable.
-It's not so black and white.
-[Stephanie] Yeah.
[Sophia] Cool.
[birds chirping]
She is so sweet and so kind.
She kissed me goodbye and said,
"I really enjoyed talking with you today."
I think she persevered
and overcame a lot...
but she showed me her box
of Charlie Manson, um... research.
The books were Helter Skelter,
the book by Jeff Guinn
and the Nuel Emmons' book.
Those are, like, the three most
sensational anti-Charles Manson...
books you can, you can get.
And I got really upset.
You know, if you, um,
ask my dad's half-brother,
he would tell you my dad
wasn't kicked out of the house
and he wasn't abused.
He would say that my dad just ran away,
ran off with his friend.
He'd say all these things
about my dad because...
he knows just enough
to get it completely wrong.
She knows enough in those books
to say, "Oh, he must have told me that,"
because she read it over and over again
that they would ki-- that Charlie would
k*ll people if they left the ranch.
That is my opinion,
and I don't really wanna argue about it.
I-I can have my therapist push back,
but I'm not really comfortable
arguing about it with you.
[Allie] Why not?
[Sophia] I don't need to be
always processing on a whim
when traumatic things
just happen to me and put on camera.
It's unfair, and I've done it so often.
I do it so many times,
and I-- there's only so much I can take.
[Allie] So, I totally hear that.
Why--
You could have talked to the therapist.
Allie, if anyone wants to believe
that he did those things,
be my f*cking guest.
Be my guest.
I don't care. I literally don't care.
Everyone else thinks it anyway,
so who cares?
I'm telling you what I feel
because the camera's pointed at me,
and I'm going on this journey.
I've read the transcripts.
I've looked at the evidence.
I knew all the events that she had
missing holes and memories from.
[Allie] You don't have to endorse it,
but, like, do you feel--
'Cause when I watched you
listen to that stuff,
you-- your wall went up.
I don't--
[scoffs]
Well, I'm very sorry.
[Allie] No, I'm not
asking you to feel bad.
I'm asking...
[Sophia] [sighs] f*ck me then.
Like, I don't know.
Maybe I'm not doing enough.
I really can't do it anymore.
Can't do it, I'm done.
It's f*cked up, dude.
[steady electronic whine]
[foreboding music playing]
[jarring stinger]
[music continues]
[newscaster] Young girls,
supposedly under the spell
of a bearded Svengali.
[Vincent] Slaughtered the victims
in an orgy of m*rder.
[Dan] Your grandfather
was a product of the failure
of the juvenile justice system.
[Daniel] We were all raised
by dysfunctional people
who were raised by dysfunctional people.
[Charles] If I wanted to k*ll somebody,
I'd take this book
and beat you to death with it.
[Nikolas] You doubt everything
that your father said?
[Daniel] I don't believe
a word of anything.
[Dianne] When you love somebody,
you forgive far and wide,
you know, the bad stuff.
[Daniel] Don't f*cking say a word to me.
-[Sophia] I'm not mad at you.
-[Daniel] Don't f*ck' say a word to me.
[Sophia] Ever since my therapist told me
I was being pushed and pulled
in so many different directions, I...
I'm now so aware of it.
I don't wanna feel this way anymore.
-[intense music playing]
-[steady electronic whine]
[voice breaking] I just want it to stop.
[somber music playing]
[Allie] She is the director of a movie...
and it's really hard.
And I wish she had had better parents.
[music continues]
[voice breaking] Now, she's trying
to be an adult all alone.
No help, no roadmap.
She just needs more people to love her
and give her what she gives others.
'Cause until she has that,
she will keep clinging to these two men
who do not deserve it.
Because her dad is flawed...
and, and missing,
and her grandpa is dead.
There's nobody to save back there.
[Dr. Rose] How are you
feeling today, Sophia?
[Sophia] I just don't
wanna be a bad person.
I just wanna do right by the victims
and by my grandfather...
and I don't know how... I'm doing.
Like, I don't know if I'm doing it right.
[somber music playing]
Rosemary, Leno LaBianca...
Steven Parent, Jay Sebring...
Frykowski, Folger, Hinman,
Sharon Tate, Sharon Tate's baby.
Nine people, after they were m*rder*d,
they were revictimized
over and over and over again.
[Dr. Rose] I heard you
recite those nine names
with such fluidity that it tells me
you're carrying these names on your heart.
The grief is getting bigger and bigger.
You are holding onto something
that doesn't belong to you.
You can give this
to something bigger than yourself.
Do me a favor. Write down their names.
You cannot be the holder of this, Sophia.
It's what this journey is about.
[faint guitar music playing]
[Sophia] [gasps] Oh, my-- [squeals]
It's Fun in Acapulco!
My dad would play this
every morning on vinyl...
to wake us up to get ready for school.
That's incredible.
My dad sold this vinyl record
when he was just super broke and had to...
get some money for food or whatever.
And... he sold
all of our vinyl, in-including this one.
And I've always wanted it back.
Not my granddaddy, but that's okay.
I'm keeping this. This is mine.
["Thoughts in My Mind" by
Donnie & Joe Emerson playing]
Thoughts in my mind
About to unfold
What life is about
[giggling]
Just grieve all alone
[young Sophia] Ah!
[lips squeaking]
There's no one here
-[Daniel laughs]
-Come on, Dad.
-[Daniel] Thats elderly abuse.
-When I need someone
Go, go! It looks great.
Beautiful. There you go.
That's what we want.
Happy birthday, dear Sophia
Happy birthday
To you
Make a wish.
[Dr. Rose]
Talk to me about the past week
and how are you feeling?
How are things going?
My dad blocked my number.
He's-- Hasn't reached out to me.
I wish he acted...
in a way that is respectful.
I wanna respect him.
I've always had so much empathy
for him and compassion.
[Dr. Rose] Can I ask why?
[Sophia] Yeah, he put a lot
of intense dark memories
into my mind as a very young child.
[Dr. Rose] Sophia,
just putting together everything
that you described about your dad, um,
and those parts of your upbringing,
even the good stuff
as well as the bad stuff, um,
I, I suffice it to say
that your dad groomed you.
[somber music playing]
Not for, you know,
salacious, sexual actions,
but to adhere to the story
that maintains his victimhood.
[car door opens]
[Daniel] Hi honey.
You OK?
[Sophia] I've just been walking around
El Segundo.
[Daniel] Well, you can thank
your mom for that.
[Sophia] I called you like three times
on three different...
kinds of phones and you didn't pick up.
[Daniel] Well, I'm busy! I'm working, man!
I'm trying to make a living, alright?
I got more important things to worry about
than your doctor appointment... okay?
That was last minute, not set up with me.
[Sophia] Your work is
more important than me?
So, stop yelling at me
or I'm gonna start yelling!
You're the one that started yelling first,
and I have it all documented here on tape.
[Sophia] Jesus Christ.
We'll go to the videotape
and we'll see who's yelling.
[Dr. Rose]
He poured everything into you...
so that you were the person
who always see his victimhood.
It means that you get
to control the narrative.
And only one person
wants to control the narrative,
and that person is the narcissist.
[Daniel] You're the one that wants
to run off to all your problems.
I'm the one who stuck it out,
who stuck around,
who's been there for you,
picks you up when you fall down,
wipes your nose
when you got it runny,
gives you medicine when you're sick.
[Dr. Rose] Do you know
radical acceptance is the only way
to win with a narcissist?
[Sophia] Mm-hmm.
[Dr. Rose] And the radical acceptance
is that you'll never win.
Yeah, totally.
[Sophia] I don't want to yell at you.
It's not your fault.
-I know it's not your fault.
-[Daniel] Then why are you yelling at me?
I'm not mad at you.
[Daniel] What? Oh, you--
[Sophia] I'm mad at you for--
[Daniel] Oh, you are, you are
schizophrenic, I'm sorry.
Drop me off on the corner.
I don't wanna ever talk to you again.
I don't care. I'm not mad at you.
-I don't care.
-[Daniel] Stop, right here!
-No.
-[Daniel] Yes!
-No.
-[Daniel] Stop, right now!
-Don't do that.
-[car door opens]
[Dr. Rose] I think he's trying
to feed even further his victimhood
by grabbing onto Charlie's narrative.
I wanna make sure that the grooming
you experienced with Dad,
that your relationship
with your grandfather
is not benefiting from that.
[Sophia] Hi, Dr. Schug.
-[Dr. Robert Schug] How are you?
-[Sophia] I'm good.
Thank you for having me.
-[Dr. Schug] Nice to meet you. Come on in.
-Sophia.
Later today I'm taking a inkblot test,
a personality test.
I don't know exactly
what I can get out of this test,
but I know my grandfather
took it a few times
and results varied
and progressed over the years.
Um...
so I'm gonna take it with a grain of salt
'cause, like, we talked about...
you know, the psychology world,
maybe it wasn't on point
in some of those years,
but they're comparing my results to his.
[Dr. Schug] The data
from your grandfather comes
from a 1997 evaluation
at Pelican Bay State Prison.
For him, this particular five-day session,
he was in a wire mesh cage
and he was shackled.
His wrists and legs were shackled.
And, um, so, what his results
suggested was that,
first of all, hypomanic symptoms
like elevated mood, irritability,
that kind of thing.
A manic episode sometimes associated
with, like, a bipolar illness.
Distractability, euphoria,
grandiosity, irritability.
Yeah, my therapist told me that
whenever I describe my dad,
she said that, "Your descriptions of him
kind of match descriptions
of people with hypomania."
And I Googled it,
and I would notice that as a kid.
I was like, "Wow, my dad is so happy
over this very small thing."
And I thought that was a cool thing.
-[Dr. Schug] Yeah.
-It's, like, kinda charming.
It's kind of earnest.
It's like he's got a sparkle in his eye,
but then other times, he's so irritable.
It's kinda two sides
of the same coin, isn't it?
-Mm-hmm.
-It can be an asset
-and a liability, right?
-Right.
[Dr. Schug]
So, with your grandfather,
he was reporting
some thought disorganization,
um, some bizarre thoughts
and persecutory ideation.
The idea that people
were out to get him, right?
So, his results did speak
to some vulnerability
to, like, a psychotic illness
or psychotic break,
meaning a break from reality.
[Sophia] It makes sense
my grandfather's vulnerable to psychosis.
I think--
Like, I have ideas of...
when my dad has had a psychotic break.
-[Dr. Schug] Okay.
-Or when my grandfather
has had a psychotic break.
And then, finally,
in terms of personality traits,
some psychopathic, antisocial,
schizotypal, and narcissistic traits
really relating to kind of
operating without a conscience.
Now, you, on the other hand,
didn't have any of that.
It was a very,
we would call it "unremarkable"
in the sense that there--
nothing was really--
-No red flags, right?
-Okay.
[Dr. Schug] So, let's move on
now to the R-PAS,
the Rorschach Performance
Assessment System.
Okay, so this is gonna be, uh,
your grandfather's, uh,
Rorschach scores will be on the left
and yours will be on the right.
Okay, so the first score
is giving responses
that don't fit the blots,
that don't fit the way
other people see them.
-Is it unique...
-Yeah.
-[Dr. Schug] ...versus conventional?
-Normal.
[Dr. Schug] Your grandfather's
was elevated and as was yours.
In fact, yours was higher than his.
[Sophia] I would not
have thought I beat him.
-You beat him. You won, you won.
-[laughs]
This alone doesn't
make anybody crazy, right?
It's just the way
they're filtering information
coming in from the outside.
I think about this a lot.
Like, the, you know,
you look back historically
at, like, artists,
the fine line
between genius and madness, right?
An artist is able to see
outside of the box, right?
And so, it could be some of that too.
So, as expected,
um, his aggressive content score
was quite high.
-[Sophia] Yeah.
-[Dr. Schug] Looking at the blot
and seeing aggressive images
could mean a number of different things.
It could mean that a person identifies
with aggression, um, and power.
It could mean
that they're especially wary of that.
Like, they're on the lookout for it.
-Yeah.
-[Dr. Schug] Or that they identify,
perhaps, with being a victim of it, right?
So, it doesn't necessarily mean
you're aggressive.
-He's the perpetrator.
-[Dr. Schug] Right, right, right, right.
And you, on the other hand,
were just right down the middle.
His responses
were quite different from yours.
And I remember
your responses tended to be
more lighthearted and whimsical
and kind of creative.
At the very least, they weren't concerning
or scary or, or that kind of thing, right?
But one did jump out at me, right?
That yours was almost identical.
On one of the cards,
you had pointed out a mustache man.
So, on that same card,
your grandfather said it,
"Looks like a Hippie
with a mustache wearing shades."
The second part of these responses,
I think, is also very telling.
"Looks like a Hippie
with a mustache wearing shades
"with the Eiffel Tower on top of his head
and there are
two caterpillars on the side."
-So, it kinda went another place, right?
-Uh-huh.
[Dr. Schug] You, on the other hand,
"I think a weird creature, mustache man.
"The eyes, the mustache.
"I see the eyebrows kind of like
what you might see on a mask,
"and I don't know,
I've been to Japan or Indonesia
"and they have these crazy cultural masks.
It could be that."
Right? So, you put it
in a very kind of normative context,
and he just sort of went
somewhere else with it.
And there's another bit to the story
to sort of further cement that.
We can look at, um, the popular.
The higher the score,
the more likely a person is
to see conventional images in the cards.
Your grandfather
was below average on that.
You, on the other hand,
were way above average.
You don't have the signs
of thought disorder,
and you are able to see the world
in a conventional way.
-Mm-hmm. Yeah.
-[Dr. Schug] He was not.
So, if-if you came in here worried
that Dr. Schug was gonna tell you
you're just like Charles Manson, right?
You're not. These are
some of the ways you're not, okay?
I, I also wanted to touch
a little bit on the fact
that I've never once met a monster.
I've talked to people
who've done unspeakable things,
but I've never once met a monster.
I don't think your grandfather
was a monster.
You know, I think...
he was complex, right?
[engine rumbling]
[Sophia] I know people
will always view me skeptically
because I am a descendant
of America's most notorious criminal.
And I think that's the part
my dad can't handle.
[Daniel and young Sophia
yelling and laughing]
[voice breaking] The discovery that
his dad is Charles Manson is trauma
that threw him in a mentally
and emotionally vulnerable position.
And he bailed on me.
Again.
Despite everything,
I know that he took me
as far as he possibly could.
For everything he's done wrong...
I know he's tried his best to do right.
[somber music playing]
When you found out Manson was your father,
did you have any second thoughts
about who we are
and if we're bad, if we're good,
if we're guilty, if we're--
You must have thought
some ill feelings about him.
It's hard for people actually who know
who their parents are
to even identify with somebody
who doesn't know who their parents are.
It's a void that can never be filled.
It gnaws at you.
It-It...
It's a terrible thing for anybody
to have to go through.
I, I didn't wanna subject you
to this darkness...
this terrible story.
So, I weighed it very heavily
for about two months,
uh, and I felt that actually
the best thing to do was
to be truthful with you
because that's what you deserve.
That's what I deserved,
but I never got it.
Come here.
[Sophia] [sobbing] You gave me
a much better childhood
than what your parents gave you.
[Daniel] And in return,
I gave it to myself
because I was able to give it to you.
My whole life has been
rescripting it through you.
You were the only person
who ever, um, held my hand
and told me you loved me.
And I would've been
more like your childhood
if you were out of it.
[Daniel] [voice breaking]
That's why I didn't let go.
I fought my a*s off.
-To keep me?
-[Daniel] To keep you.
[Sophia] Both my dad and Charles
had to take on last names
that were not in their bloodline.
My dad's last name, Arguelles,
is his stepdad's last name.
Charles Manson was born
to Kathleen Maddox.
But because he was a b*stard child, uh...
he needed the name of a man.
And Manson happened to be
the guy Kathleen was dating.
Felt like I've never had a last name,
so it's a very exciting prospect
to have found a last name
for me that I really enjoy.
Things went horribly awry
with the name "Manson,"
and I just wanna give
my family lineage a second chance
with this new name.
Maddox.
Maddox. Sophia Maddox.
Hi, I'm Sophia Maddox.
I'm not gonna bring the camera in
because I'm not allowed
to record anyway, so cheers.
I love my dad.
My door is always open.
All I can do is
continue working on myself,
creating boundaries,
and just have it be about me
instead of trying to fix him
or trying to fix my grandfather,
let's just fix me.
So...
[Allie] And I have to say, like, the vibe
coming off you right now is very...
[Sophia chortles]
...is very uplifting.
[Sophia] [laughing] I know.
[Allie] Give yourself a bit of credit.
[Dr. Rose] Sophia, you were the first one
in your lineage to be born free.
On top of that, I wonder if, uh,
yours was to lead and not to follow.
That's not... [laughs]
That's not the narrative
I grew up with. [laughing]
[Dr. Rose] Well, um, people who felt small
would wanna keep you small,
so... [laughing]
they can justify their height.
[Tom]
Somewhere out there, somewhere,
there's at least one son
that we know of that's your child.
Who's probably about 25
or 26 years old right now.
-Is that right?
-Yeah.
Look in that camera.
What do you say to that kid?
You gotta catch it on your own, boy.
Train's hard. The road's rough.
-And you wanna hear something?
-[Tom] Yeah.
He'll do it better than me. [laughs]
[Tom] Do what?
[Charles] Whatever he does. [laughs]
He'll do it a little better.
Kids do, don't they?
-[Tom] Sometimes.
-[Charles] Yeah.
[laughs] That's what
makes him such a gas.
They always seem to get through.
Ah, it's magic!
Whoo!
[inspiring music swells]
It's time to let all of this go...
move on with my own life,
and do my own thing, separate from cameras
and separate from Charlie
and separate from my dad.
Now I've gotta find my own story...
separate from all of this.
And... God, I have no idea... [chuckles]
where I'm gonna go or what I'm gonna do.
["Lay It Down Slow"
by Spiritualized playing]
If you got dreams in your heart
Why don't you share them with me?
And if dreams don't come true
I'll make sure that
your nightmares are through
If you got pain in your heart
Why don't you share it with me?
And we'll just wait and see
If it's half of what it used to be
[song fades out]
Welcome to our World! Where we serve you cookies to ensure you get the best viewing experience on our site.
Did you know that you can remove censorship board-wide, use our advanced search functions, be notified when new content is posted, join our memberships, set episodes to show in any order you want & more if you are logged into your account?
Register or sign in here: ucp.php?mode=register
Did you know that you can remove censorship board-wide, use our advanced search functions, be notified when new content is posted, join our memberships, set episodes to show in any order you want & more if you are logged into your account?
Register or sign in here: ucp.php?mode=register
My Grandfather Charles Manson (2026)
Moderators: Maskath3, sidolanters, GabrielAlejo2341