01x01 - Chapter 1

[bunniefuu]

[footsteps approaching]

[Rick Rubin]
Let's step into the light.

[bottle thuds]

-[bottles clinking]
-[chair scraping]

You up for listening
to a bit of music, sir?

-Let's do it.
-Let's listen to something.

[♪ "Intro [The Dynasty]"
playing]

Hey, that's a nice start.

-[laughing]
-That's a great start.

-Man.
-That's the "Intro."

[Jay-Z chuckles]

[♪ music stops]

Tell me what comes up
when you hear those words.

Oh, man.

Um, just the space.

My favorite intro. Um...

This is after, like,
four albums.

This is Dynasty album, which was
meant to be a compilation album.

It was just like, you know,
that moment of...

the realization of where
you come from...

and where you're going.

You thinking like
people of means

didn't have problems.

Specifically in this song,

Bill Cosby and, like,
speaking of Ennis,

"keen senses ever since I was
a teen on the benches,

every time somebody with
Ennis was mentioned,"

-and Ennis is the name
of Cosby's son.
-Mm-hmm.

"I would turn green,
me being in the trenches,

"him living adventurous,

not worrying about
expenditures."

Like, they had no worries
'cause they had money.

And that-- that sorta--
"I would turn green," right?

-Yeah.
-Me being jealous
of that lifestyle.

"I'm braving temperatures
below zero.

No hero, no father figure."
Right? These are--

These-- This was what's
going on for me in my life,

and, you know, not growing up
with your-- your father.

Well, my father left around 11.

That whole thing
I had to re-explore as well,

you know, the dynamic
between, like,

you know, myself and my dad.

Um, but just this thought
of this criminal world

that I was living in,
"the theme song to The Soprano

plays in the key of life,"
like real life.

And it's a reference
to Stevie as well, like...

And then it goes
right to Stevie,

"plays in the key of life..."

-Yeah.
-"...on my mental piano."

-Incredible.
-Like "Stevie Wonder

with beads under the durag,"

like just making the comparison
to me and Stevie.

And I always wore a durag
at that time.

-Yeah.
-With no waves.

-[laughing]
-"Intuition is there

even when my vision's impaired."

Like, you grow up knowing
what's gonna happen next.

You grow up knowing
'cause you have a sense

of if this--
these certain things happen

or these guys come into the room
and they move in a certain way,

you already know
how it's gonna play out.

-Mm-hmm.
-Because you survived on...

your instincts.

"Intuition is there even
when my vision's impaired,

knowing I can go
just switching a spare,"

knowing how fragile life was.

Ennis had, uh, got m*rder*d.

He pulled over
to the side of the road,

he was switching his tire.

And these are the things
that were happening at the time.

Oh, so the switching a spare
is a reference to--

"Knowing I can go
just switching a spare."

-I had no idea that was
a reference to that.
-Yeah.

"On the highway of life."

-Visually bringing those
two things back.
-Incredible.

And so, just drawing
these parallels

of how you think,
you know, Michael Jordan

and the Bill Cosbys,
and all them,

you know, that their life
is so much greater

'cause they have money.

You know, I know better now.

-Yeah.
-Um, but you think,

"Well, if I had $100,

I wouldn't be complaining
about anything."

It's like, mm.

That's not... [chuckles]

You know, everyone has problems,
different problems.

-Yeah.
-Every-- and I guess
the whole, uh, feeling

of everyone thinking the grass
is greener on the other side.

That's pretty much what that--
that intro was about,

dealing with that.

You have the reference
about the-- The Sopranos,

and throughout the songs
there are references

-to television, movies a lot.
-Yeah. Yeah.

Would you say
it's an inspiration,

or is it just a metaphor
that when you say it,

it's like shorthand
for the message

-that you're trying to tell?
-Well, I love TV and film,

so it always--
it's always back there.

And I know it's shorthand

that if I say the theme song
to The Sopranos.

-We know what that is.
-We know what that is.

-Yeah.
-I don't-- just move on
to the next line.

You don't have to explain it
and what that is.

And you talk about, "Never read
the Quran or Islamic scriptures,

only Psalms
written on arms," like...

So, on the arms of Biggie--

this was a reference--
Biggie, D-Roc, Lil' Cease,

they all have the same, um,
Psalm scripture on their arm.

-Really?
-Yeah.

They all got the same tattoos.

So, it was a reference to them.

"Only Psalms I read was on
the arms of my n*gg*s tattooed."

Like, that was my-my-my--
my, um, learning of religion,

which was a bit of exaggeration

'cause my grandfather
was a preacher.

And my grandfather
had his demons.

You know, a bunch of demons.
He got his, um...

You know, we'll--
we'll get into that.

Where was the line
of, um, exaggeration

permissible and not for you?

It was only
in painting a-- a picture.

Part of my-- my rule
was if it's not about me

or about something that,
you know,

my friends went through,
I'm not gonna say it.

-Mm-hmm.
-I'm not gonna create
a beautiful tale

like a Slick Rick would do.

-No fantasy.
-There's no fantasy.

Even in, like, storytelling,
when I made a song

like, Meet the Parents.

So, Meet the Parents was--
was this song about, um--

-if you have it there, I won't--
-We do.

-Yeah, that's--
-You wanna hear it?

Yeah.

[♪ "Meet the Parents" playing]

♪ I got y'all ♪

-[♪ music ends]
-I don't know how you did that.

So, I took a real subject,
"Meet the Parents,"

like, you know,
my father being gone.

So many of our fathers was gone
and we're always in the street.

Even our dads was in the street.

So, if you had left
early enough,

you would run
into yourself somewhere

and not know that
that's your son,

and the possibility
that you could k*ll your son.

-Yeah.
-Because that's what
was happening at the time.

So, this is actually a PSA
for, like, parenthood.

'Cause you're making a point.

-Making a point.
-You wanted to make a point.

I wanted to make a point.

Not just me. Forget me.

Just the whole neighborhood.

Imagine, you know,
your brother died,

your father died,
your [indistinct] locked up.

You start thinking...

-That's what it is.
-That's what it is.

-Yeah.
-There's no God
coming to save us.

There's no superhero
coming to save us.

This is like,
I gotta do for self.

And you start hardening.

Yeah, you have the line
somewhere about, uh,

church is only for atheists.

Oh, that's probably
Where I'm From.

-"And the church
is the flakiest..."
-Yeah, yeah, yeah.

"And we been praying to God
so long that we atheist."

You know, it's just like
you've been asking for relief...

-Yeah.
-...from this struggle.

And, you know,
you don't have the...

-spiritual maturity to know it.
-Mm.

That's not how life works.

And you'd go through certain
things and you never know why,

but you look back
and say, "Man."

-You look back later and say--
-Yeah, makes sense.

-Makes sense. Makes sense.
-Yeah.

Just from a technical
standpoint,

do you start with the track,
or do you ever have an idea

for a song
before you hear a track?

I think with those two,
because I was in the studio,

the track dictated where--
where these two went.

But it happens both ways.

-The mood of the music
would inspire.
-The mood. Yeah.

If you listen to my songs
that have strings...

-Yeah.
-...they're all, like,
super melancholy

and, like, introspective,
because something about strings

make me, you know,
go into, like, story-mode

and it's like...
[singing melody]

On this Meet the Parents,
it was like immediately,

something about it
informs my brain's story.

How similar was your experience

to the experience of the kids
in your neighborhood?

Very similar.

Everyone had
the same experience,

except I was the one
that could stand on the soapbox

and, like, articulate
what we were going through.

I think that's what--
that's how I struck a chord.

-Yeah.
-There's like, certain details

and certain smells to it
that you couldn't know unless--

-Too specific.
-It's too specific.

-Unless you were there,
you couldn't know...
-Yeah.

...you know,
a handheld weigh scale

and what that meant, you know.
You had to know.

How would you describe
the hip-hop that came before

in comparison
to what you were doing?

-You know, especially
in the beginning...
-Yeah.

...it was just
the stylings of music.

Like, how--
how can I say things,

um, in a very unique way?

-Mm-hmm.
-Rakim came
with multi-syllables,

and then Kool G Rap said, "No,
I got even more multi-syllable."

And then Kane was like,
"No, but I have song structure."

-Yeah.
-Obviously, Melle Mel

came and did The Message,
and that was a major moment

where we were like, oh,

this could do more than just
"I'm the best, I'm the best."

Do you remember when you
first heard The Message?

I don't know where I was,
but I do remember the feeling

and the time, you know.

My mom and pop
had a huge record collection.

I actually heard--
my first rap record

was something like King Tut III

or King Tim,
something like that.

King Tim or King T--
It was a green label.

-Mm-hmm.
-I remember that.

My first rap record
I ever heard was from my mom.

Wow.

[chuckles]
Yeah, because they had--

you know, they built
this wall unit.

We didn't have much money,
so they had, like, milk crates,

-like iron crates.
-Yeah.

And I guess this was definitely
normal then, right?

-That's what you carried
your records in.
-Yeah.

So, they have, like,
iron crates on both sides,

then took like a plywood,
put it on top,

then put another set,
and then put the speakers,

and then on top
had like a reel-to-reel.

[Rick] Mm-hmm.

Um, I didn't even know
how great that was back then.

I was just like,
what's the big thing up there?

-And I never used it.
-What was the music

that was playing in your house
growing up?

Everything. Uh, Prince,

Michael Jackson, Stevie,

-Ohio Players.
-Mm-hmm.

O'Jays, Supremes,

-Richard Pryor's albums.
-Yeah. Yeah.

I heard all my curse words
from Richard Pryor.

-Redd Foxx album.
-Yeah, fantastic.

-Um...
-I had Redd Foxx's album.

And I've said this before,
but it was--

it was always fascinating to me
that my parents shared kids,

but their names
were on the records.

-I was like--
-Well, it tells you how much
they cared about it.

Yeah. It had, like,
you know, like, plastic covers.

-Yeah.
-Like, everything
was in its cover.

There was nothing out.
You pull it out,

and a sticker
was on the corner, "Lulu."

That's what we call my mother,
Lil Lulu.

-Her name is Gloria Carter.
-Yeah.

She had "Lulu,"
and then my father had "AJ."

That was his name,
Adnis Reeves Jr., "AJ."

And they just had their names
on every single one of their--

-That's incredible.
-Their records, their vinyls.

Was that the thing of most value
in your house?

-Oh, by far.
-The record collection.

-Oh, by far. By far.
-Yeah.

'Cause it was everything.
It was the center

-of our universe.
-Mm.

Everyone came
to my house, right?

-'Cause we had all the records.
-Yeah.

And people would
come there and party.

I remember my house being
a house of sports and music.

You know, Sundays, you know,
you smelled Pine-Sol

or Ajax in the-- in the house,
you know,

which I kinda figured out that
as well with my mom.

There was like
this incessant cleaning.

Like, and it was just her
trying to control
her little space.

-Mm.
-The whole world around her

was dirty and--
or looked down on her.

-And out of her control.
-And out of her control.

And that's the thing that
she can control, her household.

-Yeah.
-We lived in the projects.

You know, it might be, you know,
broken bottles outside

and dope needles,
but in her space,

the space that she can control,

it was super clean.

-Mm.
-It was always clean.

We always had
like a-- a schedule

of our chores, of like,
"Wednesday, you do the dishes,"

and ah, this,
and "You take out the garbage

and you sweep the floor."

There were a lot of, like,
angst over that

and discipline over that,
I mean, my mom

was just always on me
about the way I swept the floor.

She like this-- almost like
this military upbringing

when it came to cleaning.

Yeah. I'm picturing it.

And then, so I would--
it was sports.

Everyone would come,
they'd be cooking,

Pine-Sol cleaning,
windows open and music.

-Mm.
-You know, after the sports
and the music start,

and then they would have like
a little red light situation

in the living room where we,
like, sneak out the back room

and be peeking and, you know,
they rolling they little joints,

-you know, on the vinyl cover.
-Yeah.

Back then, they had
terrible weed,

-so it was like seeds,
all the seeds in the weed.
-Yeah.

So, you had to, like,
take the-- the bamboo paper,

and, like, my mom
would let me do this as a kid.

She trusted me as-- as an--
as an adult

really early,
I think about that often.

-Why do you think that was?
-I think she knew.

It was like, "He's-- he's mature
enough to handle it."

Like, she--
she really trusted me.

I was away from my house at 16.

-I was in Trenton, New Jersey...
-Mm.

...living away from my mom
for months.

Months. Sixteen.

-Yeah.
-So, I remember seeing

the Sugarhill g*ng in my house

on the first time
when they were on, um...

-American Bandstand, maybe?
-Soul Train.

-Soul Train.
-So, Soul Train.

And I remember being like...

It was odd to me.

Like, what are they
doing on there?

So, that was the first time
you saw people rapping?

-On TV, definitely.
-But you'd seen them rapping

-in the street before?
-Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

'Cause they-- we used to have,
like, little block parties

where they would, like,
plug into, like, the lamppost.

So, there was always,
like, music outside.

Around nine is when
I start, like, trying to like...

-DJ.
-DJ.

I think that's
everyone's entry, um...

Then, start writing.
Then, I would start writing.

Around nine is when
I caught the bug

of like, I remember clearly,

distinctly, like,
being obsessed.

Like, write-- I would write
every day.

Every day, every day, writing,
just writing, just writing.

And would you write rhymes,
or would you write songs?

-I would write rhymes.
-Rhymes.

-I didn't really understand
song structure...
-Yeah.

...or anything like that yet,
just long--

-Just cool rhymes.
-Long raps, yeah.

And I wrote so much that my mom
bought me this, uh,

green little-- I wish I had it--
this green little, um, binder.

It was almost like
it was-- it was made.

It was like, you know,
big gold, um, paperclips,

I guess is what you call 'em
when you bend 'em over.

-Mm-hmm.
-They would come through,

and had, like, three of those.

And the-- and the sheets
of paper

didn't have lines on it.

So, like, the songs would be
like sideways,

the whole thing,
like, they had no structure.

And then, I would write
really small--

-So it was like drawing paper...
-Yeah.

-...more than writing paper.
-Drawing paper.

-It was drawing paper, yeah.
-Yeah.

And I would just write
and write, and then just--

You know, I had this thing about
people seeing what I wrote,

so I would write really small
and then I'd cross it out,

and write, like,
almost like in a decoded way

so only I can, like, read it.

When did you start memorizing
instead of writing it down?

So, say from nine to 15...

just wrote and wrote.

Once I got to Trenton,
I was in the streets then.

It was way different.

-Tell me about it.
-From nine to 15, I'm home.

-Yeah, writing.
-I'm writing and going
to talent shows

and writing with Jaz.

When did you meet Jaz?
How old were you?

I wanna say right before I left.

-Fifteen-ish?
-Yeah.

And we met
'cause everyone was like,
"This new guy is really good."

And it was like, "No, this guy's
the best in the projects."

And we were meant to battle,
and, you know,

it was like a mutual respect.

He was like, "Man, he is good."

And we just started, like,
writing together.

-Then it was just--
-Yeah, talk about
battling a little bit,

'cause that's an interesting
part of the culture.

-Yeah.
-Rap battles.

You had to prove
that you were good enough

to get on the-- the mic
at block parties.

You know,
like at the block party,

they ain't gonna just
throw somebody up there.

You-- you know, you could ruin
the vibe of the party.

-Yeah.
-Like, any DJ wanna make sure

that the MC
saying something really good

-while he's playing
music for me.
-Yeah, so it was like a--

-It was like a tryout almost.
-Yeah. Yeah.

You had to battle to be like,
"Oh, he's the best one.

He can go up there."

So, there's no rap records yet.

-This is a local--
-There are rap records,

but it's not, like--
it's not ubiquitous.

They're like, like I said--
it's King Tut III

-and Jimmy Spicer.
-And one independent record.

-Yes, yeah. It had--
-Yeah, not anything you'd hear

-on the radio ever.
-No radio.

I remember when
Hot 97 turned over

-from like a Latin station.
-Yeah.

I was in the car
with my-- my cousin Briant.

-Yeah.
-We call him "Bee-High."

And um, he was like,
"Yo, this-- this thing

is turning all rap at noon,"

-or whatever time it--
-How shocking was that?

-It was unbelievable.
-I mean, coming from

the most, uh, fringe...

-Yes, yeah. Yeah.
-...small underground movement.

-Yeah, you had to find a club.
-Yeah. Or I remember

if I wanted to buy a 12-inch,
I had to go to the Bronx.

-Brad's Record Den
in the Bronx...
-Yeah.

-...was the only place
that sold records.
-Wow, yeah.

-That's incredible. Yeah.
-Yeah, it was a real
underground movement.

-Yeah.
-And it feels like

any of the people who started
loving it then...

there couldn't have been
any aspiration attached to it...

-Right.
-...because there was no upside.

-Exactly.
-You only did this

-'cause you loved it.
-Yeah, although...

-Tell me.
-The minute I realized,

"Oh, this is a business,"
was like '88, '89.

-Yeah, that makes sense.
-And, you know,
Kane and them were out,

but I'm saying, Jaz got a deal

-with EMI Records.
-Mm-hmm.

And because EMI
didn't h-have rap,

they didn't-- they had
The O'Jays and things like that,

they didn't know to treat him
like a rapper.

So, they gave him a--
a recording budget

for $400,000.

And when he told me,
I was like... "What?"

-[laughing]
-"$400,000 to do this? To rap?"

How hard would you have to work
to earn $400,000...

-I know.
-...in the actual world

-at that point in time?
-Exactly, yeah.

-I mean...
-Not doable, right?

-Well...
-Difficult.

You had to be in
the underworld, right?

-That can happen there.
-Yeah.

You had to risk your life daily
and risk your freedom.

-Yes.
-You know, there's legends

in the street
that people "celebrate"

-for, like, being kingpins...
-Yes.

...that's never seen
$400,000, for sure.

Most people at the end
of their run

would've been better
with a, like, a-- a regular job.

The amount of hours, like,
you just standing out there.

-It was no nine to five.
-If you amortize the hours...

-Yeah.
-...the potential downside...

-Exactly.
-...it's not worth it.

-It's not worth it.
It really isn't.
-Yeah.

It's worth it for maybe


It sounds like
you didn't choose it.

It was what was available.

Yeah. It was like air.

It was everywhere.
It was the path.

-Yeah.
-You know, and before you get
to map your life out,

the street says, "Come here.

"Your mom
doesn't have groceries.

"Your lights is out.
You didn't have heat last week.

You had to turn off the heat
to keep the lights on."

That's what my mom was doing.
So, what she would do

is like, say, "Okay, what could
be sacrificed this month?"

-Yeah.
-Rent has to be paid.

Right? And even sometimes
she would--

they would do a thing
where you go three months out

and then they would
take you to court

and then you would pay,
but you got the three months.

You-- you got the three months
where you can...

You know, my mom was a hustler.
She was trying to figure out

how to-- how to make this thing
work for four kids.

My mom had four kids
before she was 20.

-I'm the last at 20.
-Wow.

And I look at that saying,

man, I don't even know
how to manage that.

Four children at 20.

So, the streets
grab you for that.

Like, you're not gonna
help your mom?

You gonna let you--
what, you watching your mom

struggle like this?
And, you know,

go do something. Like, be a man.

And there was no one else
offering any other kind of jobs?

No, no, there was no other
kind of job.

But we had, like, summer jobs.

A couple hundred dollars,

-couldn't be more than that,
you know.
-Yeah.

So, you were talking
earlier about Trenton.

-We-- I-- I interrupted you.
-So--

Let's go back to the difference
in living in Trenton...

-Mm-hmm.
-...versus living at Marcy.

So, Marcy was this--
this environment

from nine to 15
where I did some hustling.

But it was-- I was mostly
focused on music.

Once I got to Trenton,
we were living

in a friend
of mine's aunt's house,

and the freedom we had
was unbelievable.

-No parents.
-We're like, living like adults.

And we were in and out hustling,
paying all the bills

in her house as well.

So, I got further away
from music.

So, the little boy
that was sitting at the table

writing every day,
I had no time.

But because I trained my mind
to work like that.

You know,
it's like anything else,

three o'clock, these thoughts
are coming back,

'cause at three o'clock,

I'm typically
at the table writing.

But now, I'm outside
and I'm like,

oh, I got a really good line.

I gotta mem--
uh, let me memorize this.

Now, to memorize this,
I gotta hold onto it.

And, you know,
at first I start, you know,

I couldn't and I would lose,
like, I was like, dang,

I know I had a really good line.
What was it?

It was... it was...

And, you know,
like, whole songs
I've lost like that.

-I mean, unbelievable material.
-I bet. I bet.

I've-- I've just-- just gone.

-Yeah.
-At some point, I was like,

you know what,
I'm gonna go in the store.

I was outside on the corners
and things like that.

So, I would go in the store
and write the idea

and then, like,
ball the paper up
and put it in my pocket.

I wonder if it worked
as a form of,

I'll call it therapy.

Like, if you're in
a stressful situation...

and you have this
other thing you're doing...

-Mm-hmm.
-You know what I'm saying?

-Yeah, of course, yeah.
-You're occupying yourself...

-Yeah. Yeah.
-...with something that's not
this scary thing...

-Yeah, yeah.
-...happening out here.

-But, "I have this other life
in my head."
-Yeah.

I never thought
about it like that.

That's-- That's--
That's, you know...

I see that clear
and I-- I recognize that.

Thank you for that.

I-- I thought-- how I saw it
was, it was an exercise.

Like, I built up my mind...

-I see.
-...and memorized these things.

But I guess it was therapy.

It was a distraction from what
was happening in my real life,

the danger
of what was happening.

Like, anyone could pull up,
you know.

It could be a shootout,
it could be a robbery.

It could be
the jump out, police,

which was often the case.
[chuckles]

-Yeah.
-You know,
it wasn't like the police

wasn't running down on us
all the time.

And then, you know, again,

we started having
more and more success.

We started-- I moved
further and further away

from that pen, that pad.
So, from Trenton,

then we started
moving into our own places.

And then we start,
you know, going further.

Then, I went to Cambridge,
Maryland.

And then, I went to Virginia.
It was like I was getting

further and further away
from this notepad.

-Yeah.
-You know?

Um, so that's what,


-Yeah.
-Big.

Yeah. Big danger and big risk.

So, it sounds like
you always were planning

on coming back to music
at some point.

-Yeah.
-Even when you
were on-- on the corner.

Yeah.

Yeah, at some point, like,
there became a thing

where hustlers was making
so much money

that rappers was corny.

So, I almost had
to hide the fact

that I wanted to be a rapper.

It was like, you wanna be--
look at those guys.

Like, you know, and then
we would, like, go to shows,

and, like, uh, rappers
would pull up

in like, Turtle Tops
and minivans,

and we was coming
with, like, 4Runners

and Lexus, and Acuras,
and, like, "You wanna do that?

-We already doing this, like..."
-Yeah.

"That-- that seems like
a step backwards."

In fact, my first record,
Can't Knock the Hustle,

I really was talking
to the hustlers,

"Who do you think you are?
Maybe one day you'll be a star."

-Yeah.
-That was the feeling of,

I wanted to be a rapper,
and the hustlers

looked down upon
being a rapper at that time.

Yeah.

[♪ "Can't Knock the Hustle"
playing]

-It's fun.
-Yeah, this is great.

-Yeah, thank you.
-♪ Check, check, yo ♪

♪ I'm taking out this time ♪

♪ To give you a piece
of my mind ♪

♪ Who do you think you are? ♪

♪ Baby, one day
you'll be a star ♪

♪ Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah ♪

♪ But until then, lately ♪

Is the first record?

-Yeah. Yeah. [chuckles]
-Amazing.

♪ 'Cause that's the way
you're making me feel ♪

[Jay-Z] I remember the feeling
being like rap is my hustle.

-Hustling was my job.
-[Rick] Yeah.

-"Don't Knock the Hustle"
being about rap.
-[Jay-Z] Yeah.

-[Rick] Yeah.
-[Jay-Z] Yeah.

I remember hearing
that you wanted your first album

-to be your only album.
-Yeah.

-That was your original plan.
-Yeah.

-Tell me about that.
-I don't know where that thought

came from, but it was--
it was serious for me.

-I had these goals.
-Yeah.

I'll have one record,
it'll go gold.

-I see.
-And that'll be it.

And then I'll have this company.

I've always thought like a--
like a businessman.

-Mm-hmm.
-You know, it was like
I was fighting the artist.

I didn't love being an artist.
I didn't like sh**ting videos.

I didn't like interviews.
I didn't like speaking.

-Yeah.
-I was pretty much an introvert.

This was the way I spoke.

I would never talk like that
if you were sitting around me.

People that sat around me
was like...

Go look it up.
Everyone says, "He was so quiet.

He never said anything,
bah, bah, bah."

I would never talk,
like, in those days.

I would never have
a conversation.

You know, it-- and it was
part of the, you know...

my job.

You're not talking to people,
keep yourself sane,

stay in the shadows.

You a hustler
and you gonna be on TV?

-That goes against everything.
"Who are you?"
-Yeah, just the opposite.

There's no early footage of me.

I would never let any cameras
come around me.

-Mm.
-Film me?

Oh, no, we gonna have a fight.

Like, there's gonna be
a problem filming me.

Yeah, so everything
I was doing was...

counterintuitive to how I lived.

And I didn't-- I didn't like...

the music business.

I wanted to do it
'cause I had a dream

and I had a talent to do it,
but I didn't--

-I didn't wanna be in--
-Yeah.

You didn't aspire
to be an artist.

I didn't aspire to be an artist.

Yeah. So, I was like,
I'm gonna do this

and then I'll have a company,

and, you know,
I'll be Russell Simmons.

-[chuckles] Yeah.
-Yeah. And then,
another last album.

When you did The Black Album,

it was-- you were planning
on retiring at that point, too.

I think that was more
just exhaustion.

I just was at-- from '96,

'97, another album.

-'98, another album.
-Every year.

'99. Every year, a album.
In between, features on this,

movie soundtracks here,

shows, tours in between.

It was like this nonstop pace
of recording and making music.

And I had never stopped to say,
I'm not actually living.

I had fun. Don't get me wrong.

-But it's work.
-And it was always work.

It's fun,
but you don't have a choice.

-Yeah.
-Because you showed up.

Never missed a show.
Never was late.

Always just on time,
always just nonstop work ethic

and just always creating.

You know, and I went
too far with it.

And-- and I really felt
like in my heart I was like,

you know how you get that--
those feelings like, I'm done.

I'm done with this.
I gotta do something else.

I don't wanna just make music
just to make music.

And what do I have to say?

I think a better thing
in hindsight

would have been
just to step away.

You know, and I didn't--
I didn't step away for long.

It came right back,
maybe like two years later.

Would you say
you write all the time?

Yeah. Yeah.

What will inspire?

Will it be a thought or will it
be something in the world?

What inspires something to come?

Life.

Life, wherever I am
at that moment, like--

It might start with a phrase
or a thought?

A phrase, a saying.

-Yeah.
-Or something.

It's just like everyday,
like, life inspiring you.

♪ Turn the music up,
turn me down ♪

[♪ "What More Can I Say"
playing]

That's incredible.

♪ What more can I say ♪

So, in this song,
first verse is like, um,

"I'm not a biter, I'm a writer
for myself and others.

I say a B.I.G. verse,
I'm only bigging up my brother."

Biggie Smalls,
who had passed at that time.

You know, and a song
on Volume One,

I say, "I'm gonna make sure
a world with no thing

remember your name."

So, part of it
was like paying homage

and, like, saying, like,
little bits and pieces

of, uh, B.I.G.'s song.

And then, it became
this thing of, like, me--

out of all the songs I made,

you know, that I was taking
Biggie Smalls

to create my career.

And I address it on this song.

And I thought about it,
I'm like, "Man, rap and music

is based on homage,
and samples, and--"

-Absolutely.
-So, what am I talking about?

I remember the first time
I heard that happen,

Snoop had done
La Di Da Di over.

And I was like,
"This is really good.

-Can he do that?"
-Cover song.

We never cover songs,
like, in hip-hop.

You know, they do it
all the time in country

-and rock, et cetera, et cetera.
-Can you say the words?

-Of this song?
-Yeah.

-Tell me the verse.
-On What More Can I Say?

"Never had a n*gga
done good this long,

"this hood or this pop,
this hot or this strong,

"with so many different flows.
This one's for this song.

The next one I switch up.
This one will get bit up."

-I mean,
there's so many people...
-Yeah.

...that say
all my lyrics, like...

In defense of myself,
there's, like...

-Yeah. [laughing]
-...way more of my lyrics
and people--

"This one to get bit up.

"These f*ck too lazy
to make up sh*t.

"They crazy.
They don't paint pictures.

"They just trace me.
You know what?

"Soon they forget where they
pluck their whole style from,

"then try to reverse
the outcome,

"I'm like, 'Tah.'

-[laughing]
-"I'm not a biter, I'm a writer

"for myself and others.

"I say a B.I.G. verse,
I'm only bigging up my brother,

"Bigging up my borough,
I'm big enough to do it.

"I'm that thorough, plus I know

my own flow is foolish.
So them rings--"

-And there's a B.I.G. verse.
Then you go...
-Yeah.

"The rings and things
you sing about, bring 'em out."

Is it different, um,
recalling words

when you don't hear the music?

Mm, it's a good question.

I never thought about that.

I guess-- I guess the music
would help a bit.

Um, but nah, I just--

I hadn't heard that
in so long, like...

How long did you have to start
preparing to do that?

-Like, if you know you have
a show coming up...
-Yeah.

...and not doing it
for four years,
how long do you start--

I'm supposed to do it
a month ahead, but I never do.

-[laughing]
-I always wait
till the last week.

It's just something about it,
like something--

some-- some kind
of freshness to it when I'm...

nervous about
not knowing the next line.

Let's talk about that.
Would you say that pressure...

makes you better
or undermines you?

I definitely run
towards the pressure.

-Even when we did Unplugged
with Quest and The Roots...
-Yeah.

...we didn't rehearse
till the day before.

And he was like,
"What are you doing?"

I'm like, something about it,
like just--

it-- it's something about it
that makes you play.

-You're not acting.
-Yeah, you're living it.

-It's-- it's the moment.
-You're living it, you haven't--

you haven't rehearsed it
so much that you're just...

'Cause if I know it so much,
I'm gonna check out.

My mind wanders.

You have a way
that works for you, so it's--

-Yeah.
-There is no right or wrong way.

-Yeah. Yeah.
-It's-- the beauty is finding
the way that works.

Also, when the last song
started, it starts with,

"Turn the music up,
turn me down."

And normally, on most records,

you wouldn't get to hear that.
You wouldn't get to hear

the instructions
to the engineer.

-And it gives it much more
of a documentary feeling of...
-Yeah.

...this is really happening
right now, this is live.

-Yeah.
-And you do it on many songs.

Yeah, yeah.
Having full conversation.

"Turn the lights up."
And that was, like,
real conversation.

-I know. I know.
-[chuckles] Yeah.

When was the idea like,

"I'm gonna keep this
in the record"?

I don't even know.
I-- I feel like the first--

Was there a decision made
or did it just happen at first?

It just-- I think
it just happened, I think--

I think around
Hard Knock Life,

because I was really
going through the drums,

like, "Turn the drums down.
Turn-- take the bass out."

'Cause I wanted to rap
over just the drums.

-Yeah.
-Okay, and it was like,

"Maybe not,
put the bass back in."

-Like, and I'm really trying
to find the space.
-Yeah.

-And it just dropped so good.
-Yeah.

It's the first time I remember.
It could have been before that.

-Mm-hmm.
-But that's the first time
I remember

leaving in, like, the talk.

-Yeah, the direction. Yeah.
-Yeah.

Well, then back to B.I.G.,
one of my favorite applications

of this is a song
called Victory.

Biggie is talking.

[singsong]
"Your time won't last forever."

[mumbling indistinctly]
"Turn the music up.

No, sir,
I need that sh*t knocking."

-I'm like... [chuckles]
-Amazing.

-Yeah.
-Amazing.

[♪ "Hard Knock Life
[Ghetto Anthem]" playing]

♪ Take the bass line out ♪

♪ Uh-huh ♪

♪ Jigga ♪

♪ Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh,
yeah, let it bump though ♪

♪ It's a hard knock life
for us ♪

♪ It's a hard knock
life for us ♪

♪ Instead of treated,
we get tricked ♪

♪ Instead of kisses,
we get kicked ♪

-♪ It's a hard knock life ♪
-♪ From standing on
the corners boppin' ♪

♪ To driving some
of the hottest cars
New York has ever seen ♪

♪ For dropping some
of the hottest verses
rappers ever heard ♪

♪ From the dope spot
with the smoke GL*CK ♪

♪ Fleeing the m*rder scene,
you know me well ♪

♪ From nightmares of
a lonely cell, my only hell ♪

♪ But since when y'all n*gg*s
know me to fail, f*ck naw ♪

♪ Where all my n*gg*s with
the rubber grips, bust shots ♪

♪ And if you with me, mama,
rub on your t*ts and whatnot ♪

♪ I'm from the school of
the hard knocks, we must not ♪

♪ Let outsiders violate
our blocks and my plot ♪

♪ Let's stick up the world
and split it 50/50, uh-huh ♪

♪ Let's take the dough
and stay real jiggy, uh-huh ♪

♪ And sip the Cris and get
pissy-pissy, flow infinitely ♪

♪ Like the memory
of my n*gga Biggie, baby ♪

♪ You know it's hell
when I come through ♪

♪ The life and times
of Shawn Carter, n*gga,
volume two ♪

-♪ Y'all n*gga's been ready ♪
-♪ It's a hard knock
life for us ♪

♪ It's a hard knock life
for us ♪

♪ Instead of treated,
we get tricked ♪

♪ Instead of kisses,
we get kicked ♪

♪ It's a hard knock life ♪

♪ I flow for those
'dro'ed out ♪

♪ All my n*gg*s locked down
in the 10 by four ♪

♪ Controlling the house,
we live in hard knocks... ♪