01x02 - Chapter 2

[bunniefuu]

[♪ "What More Can I Say"
by Jay-Z playing]

♪ f*ck this, man ♪

-[both laughing]
-♪ What more can I say? ♪

So, a lot of times
in those days, we would--

when I first was recording,

we had a thing called free play
where I would just go in.

I had so many lyrics
and so many songs in my head

that I would flush through them.

-You have one track.
-Yeah.

And then I'll just say
a bunch of things on it

and be like, "Oh, this song
actually works over this."

And everybody
would rush to the studio

'cause it's like, they hadn't
heard these-- these songs.

So like, Biggs, and Dame, and
all them would run in the studio

and be like,
"Yo, free play is happening."

And then, like,
I'd just go in the booth

and I would just go through it,
and the beat always stopped

-at some point.
-Yeah.

-And I always just kept--
-But you keep going.

-So, that inspired this idea.
-That's great.

This wasn't a real time
it happened.

That inspired
the idea to do that.

-Yeah.
-And, um...

so The Black Album,
there was so--

I mean, like, obvious misses.

Encore was supposed to be
the first single.

-[laughing]
-Now, I don't know

how I missed Encore
not being the first single.

-Yeah.
-And how is this
not the last song

-on the album?
-Yeah.

It's the last album,
not Change Clothes.

Change Clothes
was the first single.

This should have been,
"Encore, do you want more?"

I almost went to radio
with Encore,

and I remember
Kevin Liles saying like,

"Man, the album's incredible.
I can't believe it.

"Like, the Encore one
is the only one

that I'm on the fence about."

And I typically
never listen to that, you know.

-Um, but I trust him as well.
-Yeah, yeah.

Then the room was too,
like Guru,

which he's always with me.

-Yeah.
-He wasn't all the way
with Encore.

It was like, it was enough
people in the room

that wasn't all the way
with Encore...

-Mm-hmm.
-...that it didn't happen.

I was sending that song
to, like, Flex.

-He's like the local DJ
at my Hot97.
-Yeah, yeah.

And I had PSA on one CD
and Encore on another one,

and I was gonna send him
those two to play.

And I took the Encore back
and just gave him PSA.

[Rick Rubin] Mm.

And that's how Change Clothes
ended up being the first single.

Yeah, that idea of what's
a single, what's not a single.

Nobody really knows.

And all you can really do
is follow your gut...

-Yeah.
-...'cause that's all you--
that's all there is.

I liked that streaming kinda
like eliminated that.

Obviously, people can
do what they want
and still make singles,

but it's not necessary,
'cause streaming,

people are just gonna
pick the singles.

-Absolutely.
-It's not dictated by radio

or what video you sh**t.

You know,
it's always been like that,

but because you was so--
had a focus track...

-Yeah.
-...you-- even when people
liked this other song...

the masses didn't embrace it
until you...

presented it in-- as a single
or as a focus track.

But now, with streaming,
people just take the songs

and, like, you know,
a song that...

you know, with no hook
or something like that,

ends up being number one
on the Hot 100,

-simply because people played it
a lot because they like it.
-Yeah, people like it.

-I love that part of streaming.
-Yeah.

I love that it-- you know.

And it also unveiled
how popular rap was.

Like, we knew that this
was the dominant genre

-for 20 years now, 25 years.
-Mm-hmm.

But the world didn't know
because the gatekeepers at...

you know, big stations,
Z100 or MTV,

they really controlled
what was being played.

Almost like when MTV
didn't play, like, Black music.

-Mm-hmm.
-And, like, I remember
David Bowie being on there like,

-"What the f*ck
are y'all doing?"
-Mm-hmm, yeah.

We knew Michael Jackson
and all that was popular,

but because it wasn't getting
played on these platforms,

-the world didn't know.
-Mm-hmm.

And I felt like streaming opened
that up for, um, for hip-hop.

It was like the last thing.
It was like, okay, it's over.

-Now, the cat's
really out the bag.
-Yeah.

I feel like now,
even though hip-hop

is as popular as it is...

there's still a lack
of understanding about it.

-I agree.
-I don't know

that people know
how to really listen to hip-hop.

-Yeah.
-It's so dense with information.

-Mm-hmm.
-And a lot of people

-just kinda hear this--
the hook in the beat.
-They hear the music.

Whatever melodic thing
catches you in the beat.

-Yeah.
-Yeah, and the lyrics are last.

When you started performing,
did you always perform
with a DJ?

-Yeah.
-When did it switch

from a DJ to a band?

Unplugged.

-And from then on.
-Yeah.

I never performed
without a band after that.

-Tell me the change.
-It brought the songs to life.

-It was so lush--
-The power of the band on stage.

Yeah, the instrumentation.

And, you know,
I-- I typically choose

musical tracks, even from
the beginning.

It wasn't typical to choose
the tracks I was choosing,

but I chose them
because this is the music

I grew up on with my mom.

-Yeah.
-This is the music

that was amazing to me
and beautiful to me.

I've always chosen, like--

the B.I.G.--
the Brooklyn's Finest song,

is just-- I used to ride around
with that

in my car all the time,
Ohio Player.

♪ Oh, baby, no-o-o ♪

That original song
is called Ecstasy.

And I would play that
all the time.

And Dame was in the car with me.

He was like, "This guy is
playing this song all the time."

Takes it to Clark and says,
"Yo, chop this up.

-He likes this."
-Yeah.

[♪ "Brooklyn's Finest" feat.
The Notorious B.I.G. playing]

[Jay-Z]
This song had a five-bar loop.

He couldn't get it
back on the one,

so we had to throw away a bar.

So when he goes,

"Time to separate
the pros from the cons..."

[mumbling indistinctly]

"...the butter-soft sh*t
from the leather on the Fonz..."

[continues mumbling
indistinctly]

"Brook-Nam, sipping on."

We had to throw that away
so he could get back on the one.

So, we always had
like an extra bar,

and we had these connectors.

And I wrote the connectors
for B.I.G.,

'cause B.I.G. didn't do
his verse that night.

So, when it goes,
"What's your name?

Who shot you?", that was me.

I was like, "What's your name?
Who shot you?",

-so he can know...
-When to come in.

Yeah, because
we would be offbeat.

-Yeah.
-And if we didn't have
those things.

So, it was a problem-solve,

that it was the first time
I had to...

as far as like, uh,
creating song structure,

'cause I was rapping.
Like I told you, this--

-Yeah.
-This album,
I was pretty much rapping.

There's no real hooks.
Like, Mary did a hook.

-Mm-hmm.
-Mecca did another hook.

Can I Live is just me saying,
"Can I live?"

You know, it was no--
no-- no songwriting

in-- in terms of, like,
you know,

creating a-- a complete song.

Even on this, I left--
we left the studio.

Me and B.I.G. was like,
"Clark, figure it out.

You know, we're done."
And that's why Clark

-is rapping on this hook.
-How long before this

did you meet B.I.G.?

I met him, but this night
was when we clicked.

We left this-- this session

and went to see, like, uh,
Kings of Comedy.

And there was like a--
you know, whole lineup,

Steve Harvey,
Cedric the Entertainer.

There was two more other guys.
I forget who was on there.

Anyway, the Kings of Comedy,
and we-- we never--

we talked every day
until he was-- till he passed.

And every Friday or Saturday,
we would go eat together,

and it was like, you know,
it was just like a--

a fast, you know, relationship.

It's strange that, you know,
this was the record

that made Tupac and I
have a little bit of problem,

just 'cause him and B.I.G.,

and I was next to B.I.G.
and thing.

But on this song
where he ends it,

"I'm warning ya,"
the next thing he said,

"I'm warning ya," was,
"most hated in California."

I was like, nah, nah,
nah, nah, nah.

We taking that out.
I don't wanna be a part of that.

But if you listen to the song,
it ends weird,

'cause he goes,
"I'm warning ya,"
And then the beat goes...

[vocalizing]

It's space.

'Cause he's like, most--
"I'm warning ya,

most hated in California." Yeah.

Tell me from your perspective

that East Coast,
West Coast beef.

-Yeah.
-When did it become apparent,

and what was the feeling?

These two guys were having
their disagreement,

and then an entire coast
jumped in.

It felt like, you know, it was
super dangerous, it felt like--

Were-- were they not fans
of each other?

-They were really close friends.
-It seems like, right?

-No, they were
really close friends.
-Explain it to me.

-They were close.
-I don't-- that's why
I don't understand it.

Here's my understanding
of it, right?

-Yeah.
-'Cause this predates me,

the-- their relationship.

Is...

Biggie and Tupac
used to hang out.

Tupac is getting
really popular now.

He-- he was gone.
He's blowing up.

-He's sh**ting movies
and all that.
-Right.

And now, a certain element
is coming around him.

And B.I.G. tells Tupac,

"Yo, you gotta watch those guys.
I know those guys.

They're not good guys,"
bah, bah, bah.

Tupac goes and tells the guys.

So now, they-- the guys
are mad at Biggie,

and Biggie's, you know,
moving around clubs

and he don't wanna go--
I didn't know this at the time.

One time,
we pulled up at the club

and there was a guy outside,
and he was like,

"I ain't going in 'cause
what-you-call-him's there."

And I'm like, "What?"

Me and Tata was in the car.
We going in.

-Yeah.
-Now, it makes sense to me

why he didn't go in,
because he had problems

with these guys who were
really serious guys in the city,

because he had told Tupac,
stop hanging with 'em,

because something's
gonna happen.

And, um-- And as we
fast forward...

-those were the guys...
-[both] Something happened.

And instead of--
I don't know what--

I don't know what was going on
with Tupac at the time.

I don't know
if it was embarrassment,

or what he felt.

He knew that Biggie told him...

-Yeah.
-...and warned about these guys.

He knew it was these guys,
and he blamed Biggie.

Which is why Biggie
never fueled the fla-- flame

to retaliate and make songs.

And, um, but he did make
Who Shot Ya.

-Mm-hmm.
-Which, you know, as--
as incredible as it is...

-Yeah.
-...I'm sure that
added flame to fire.

-Yeah.
-So, instead of saying,

"This guy warned me
about these guys,"

he turned it into a thing like,
"This supposed to be your city.

How this could happen to me
in your city?"

And B.I.G. is a great rapper
and, you know,

he-- he's a good guy,
but he-- he didn't--

he was the king
of New York, musically.

-Yes.
-We know no one
controls New York City.

It's too many bad guys.
Everybody's tough.

And the tougher you are,
the more you be-- the target

to make another guy say,
"I'm gonna try him

because I wanna be
the next guy."

There's no way Biggie
can control

these guys
that he talking about.

-Yeah.
-And he knows that.

But that was the--
that was the way he painted it,

that Biggie didn't tell him.

And then from there,
it just went.

It went.
It took on a life of its own,

and then magazines
start picking it up...

-I know.
-...and it--
it became this thing

where everybody was involved.

People that had nothing
to do with it became involved.

And did you ever feel
when you went to the West Coast

any feeling of like...

I didn't like going there
for a long time.

-Yeah.
-Even after B.I.G. passed,
I was like--

-It's strange
that I live there now.
-Felt like enemy territory.

-Yeah, it felt like--
-It's amazing that
that could happen.

-Yeah.
-Considering everyone

-loves this form so much.
-Yeah.

-Yeah.
-It's an odd disconnect.

And especially in the beginning,
it was a--

and I guess still now,
it's just part of it

'cause that's the neighborhoods
we come to.

There's a street element
in hip-hop.

Always this underly--
underlying,

because we're coming out
of these neighborhoods fresh,

and it ain't like you--
you just become

someone new tomorrow, right?

You got friends and people
that's around.

You was in the street yesterday.

-Mm-hmm.
-With your whole full crew

and doing whatever you need
to do to protect your block,

and having wars,

-and spinning a block.
-Yeah.

-You know what I mean?
-So, it's-- it's a attitude

in life that bleeds over

-into the heart-- art world.
-Exactly, yeah.

And the leader has to be
the one to be like, "Yo...

we doing something else
right now. Chill out."

-Yeah.
-You know, you always
putting out fires.

You know, I spent a lot
of those early years--

'Cause remember, I was--
was like 50 of us

when-- when we first started.

You know, and it was like
guarantee there gonna be a fight

-if we went somewhere.
-Yeah.

Or, you know, fighting,
or bottle, or stabbing.

It was 100% gonna happen,
till it was happening so much

like, wait a minute,
I don't want this.

I'm going over here.
This is business.

-Yeah.
-We taking care of business,

we go home and, you know.

There's another aspect to this
in addition to the--

the actual beef.

There's a perception
from the outside

which is
completely misunderstood.

Run-DMC played
at the Long Beach Arena

-and there was a g*ng fight.
-Mm-hmm.

And somebody got shot
at the-- at the arena.

And I remember talking
to someone in the music business

after that happened who said...

"Why did Run-DMC,
uh, provoke that riot

at the-- at their show?"

Like, what are you
talking about?

-Yeah, right, yeah.
-That-- that has nothing to do

-with what happened.
-Exactly. Yeah.

It's just like
a misunderstanding

-from the outside.
-Yeah, right.

Nothing to do with the show,

nothing to do with the music...

-No.
-...being, you know,
whatever they was saying

-in them early days.
-Yeah.

-Inciting riots, it was just--
-Yeah, inciting a riot, like...

No, I haven't seen you.

You from a different
neighborhood, and I see you here

and we got a problem. Let's go.

The lack of understanding.

-You mentioned
journalists, like...
-Yeah, mm-hmm.

The perception that the spin
gets put on it by journalists...

-Mm-hmm.
-...hyping it up,

that's wrong. And then...

-Yeah.
-...it's wrong and amplified.

Right.

It's just like, uh, you know,
pouring gasoline on a fire.

And everyone had to take
responsibility for that, too.

You gotta know
when certain things

is not to be sensationalized.

And, you know, the participants
have to take responsibility too,

'cause it's like,
the entourages, like,

you know, they wanna prove
to Biggie and Pac.

They wanna prove to them.

They wanna earn they stay,
you know what I mean?

Yeah, tell me more about
the relationship with Biggie.

Just, what was he like?
What'd you like about him?

-What'd you guys connect over?
-Yeah, well, Biggie was--

Biggie's, um,
anytime I think of B.I.G.,

I just think his humor,
first thing.

A relatable, everyday guy,

just super funny, hilarious.

Like, we spent 85% of the time
just laughing.

-Just laughing, like super--
-Great.

-On the floor crying in tears.
-Best.

Laughing, like, in pain. "Yo!"

And obviously, his voice.

His voice is incredible.

Yeah, just like where it
came from and just like--

Yeah, and the way
he pronounced words.

-Yeah.
-Just so cool.

And he'd almost, like, talk in,

where like,
"You know what I'm saying?

Yo, playboy."
And it was almost like, went in.

-Like-- like, it--
-Yeah.

Like, his words almost went...

went inward in a strange way.

It was like--
almost like a muffle.

-Mm-hmm.
-And we were-- we were like,

in New York City, that was it.

He was big,
but on the streets, I was me.

So, we had
that whole thing covered.

And I remember we walking
to a parking lot one day,

get our cars,
we were coming from a studio.

And he was like, um...

"No, we should just move
to Atlanta and, like,

"get, like-- like, you know,

two big houses
next to each other."

And... and in my mind,
I'm like...

-"What?"
-[laughing]

We're the hottest guys
in New York City.

New York. Like, we've made it.

Like, we've reached
the pinnacle of New York.

Why we wanna move to Atlanta?

And just think
about Atlanta today
and the scene today.

I'm like, that was super wise.

It was-- he had all these
things, like, outside of music

that he was thinking about
and talking about.

[♪ "I Love the Dough"
by The Notorious B.I.G. playing]

Don't forget the vinyl.
[chuckles]

sh*t.

♪ I love the dough, ay ♪

♪ I love the dough
more than you know ♪

♪ Gonna let it show ♪

[♪ music stops abruptly]

What do you remember
about that night?

Oh, yeah, we finished that
one night in Daddy's house.

I remember Puff come
and I started doing my verses.

And Puff's like,
"What you doing?
He trying to k*ll you."

[chuckles]
Puff was trying to, like,

spark the competition
between us.

-Yeah.
-You know, he's like,
"He trying to k*ll you."

-[laughing]
-Like, "Y-You-- yo,
you better go ahead."

And it was just fun,
we just was having fun.

It was just almost like
a regular night for us.

We just hanging out
and just creating music.

Did you both come to the studio
with no lyrics?

-This-- this gets written...
-No lyrics.
Yeah, this is all done--

This might--
this happens in one night.

Yeah, that's dead all--
I didn't hear the music

till he just had, like,
"I wanna do a song."

And we just-- he played this

and it was like,
alright, let's go.

And then, you both, like,
writing at the same time?

Yeah, I think I finished
my verses first.

-Yeah.
-'Cause that's when Puff
was coming in here,

and then B.I.G. was just like,
letting the music loop.

And he was just sitting
in the back.

This was the first time I saw
they-- they had a week thing

called Branson in New York.
It was very super popular.

Like, "Yo, me and Branson--
took thing-- things to Branson."

You'll hear it in a lot
of Lox raps and Biggie raps.

They used to be
the king of Branson.

You go to Branson, you get
the weed, he'd give you candy.

They would take a box
of Philly blunts

and roll
every single one of them.

And it'd just be like a box
of blunts just ready to go.

And I remember he was in
the back and he was--

he was so high
and he was, like, leaning back.

And I was like,
"How high is you trying to get?"

And he says...

Like that. [laughing]

[Rick] Wow.

-Incredible.
-Yeah, it was great.

There's Cristal mentioned
in this song.

It was almost-- all those little
markers that we were trying--

like hip-hop, like trying
to separate yourself.

Like, "I know the new sneakers.
I got the new thing.

Oh, y'all rocking
platinum jewelry?"

Nowadays, it's more
of an adoption.

Like, if someone got something,
now everybody wants to get it.

In those days it was like, yeah,
we all rock the same uniform,

but if you got the hat,
I'm getting the visor.

You know, if y'all are rocking
gold, I'm rocking platinum.

-You don't wanna be the same.
-It was all about the gift
of discovery,

and was trying to elevate.

So, that line was about, okay,

-y'all watching Tyson fight.
-Yeah.

-You know, we at
the Tyson fight.
-I see.

And, you know, you see how cheap
those tickets was.

Those tickets now like 20,000.

-Yeah, yeah.
-15,000, whatever.

It was like
I'm in the 1,500 seat.

-Yeah, 'cause that's what
it was then.
-That's what it was.

-Yeah.
-I'm in the 1,500 seats
watching Tyson.

"Same night, same fight, but one
of us cats ain't playing right."

Right, 'cause we all talking
about we're players
and we on this thing.

-I see.
-I'm at the fight.

-I see.
-People-- on the surface,
it's like,

"Oh, he just talking about
flashing and money and thing."

But if you take
a second and listen.

Like you were saying,
people don't really listen.

If you listen,
I always gave you the reason.

And I tell you, people,
"Place yourself in the shoes

of two felons and tell me
you won't ball every--"

'cause we might not
be here tomorrow.

"And tell me you won't ball
every chance you get

at any chance you hit."

"Hit" meaning k*ll.

"We live for the moment.
Makes sense, don't it?

Make dollars."
And I go back to it.

"Cats pop bottles..."
[mumbling indistinctly]

In the middle, there's almost
like a commercial break.

I-- I interrupt all the balling
and flashy sh*t to say,

"Now, listen, pockets stay full.

Skip the bull
'cause we matadors."

-It was like, you know,
a little rap line.
-Skip the bull.

"Skip the bull
'cause we matadors."

"Snatch the P89s--"
was a type of g*n--

"that we pack in the drawers
and we clap the doors

"of your Acuras.

Make you all dance
hold a hammer to yours."

Another little-- you know,
hammer to dance.

"Make you all dance,
hold a hammer to yours.

"Jig and B.I.G. rock ice,
no cracks in floors.

"Everybody got a part to play,
back to yours.

"Run up in your crib now,
crack your doors.

"Watch the real players live.
It's a habit to floss.

"Play the charts
like The Beatles,
y'all adapt the loss.

"Toast Cristal
on behalf of y'all.

"Too bad for y'all, ain't too
many as bad as yours truly.

Do we?
We laugh at y'all little bast--"

You know, the MC bravado
braggadocious type of sh*t.

So, tell me the story of Cristal
because there was a time

-you stopped-- you stopped
mentioning Cristal.
-Yeah.

So, we had discovered
Cristal pretty early.

And I remember drink--
like, literally drinking

Cristal in the club,
and people were like,

"What are you drinking?
Is that beer?"

Then the whole of hip-hop,

pretty much Cristal became
the drink of-- of choice.

They asked the guy--
I forget his position,

if he was like the president,
or whatever his position was.

They asked him
how did he feel about...

hip-hop's affinity for this
luxury brand.

And he said something like,

"I can't stop them
from drinking it."

It was-- It was--

I mean, all he had to do

was just say, "Thank you."

-Of course.
-"We welcome anybody
who loves our brand."

-Like any--
-You took it from
this exclusive brand...

-Mm-hmm.
-...that no one
even knew about...

-Right.
-...to making it
the hottest drink

-in the hip-hop world.
-Yes. He didn't want us--

almost like we were
tainting his brand

by being associated with it.

Like it didn't make it
luxury anymore

'cause we were drinking it.

That was the feeling.

-And I was like, "f*ck you."
-Yeah.

You know, I had the club.
I still have the club.

I had 40/40, took it out
of all the clubs...

and just-- and that was it.

And once I made that statement,
like, "I'm-- I don't--

we no longer drink Cristal,"
um, I was approached by a guy.

He had an idea
for this champagne.

That's how Armand was born,
Ace of Spade...

-Yeah.
-...which is what I call it,
Ace of Spades.

It was born there.
There was no liquid in it.

And it was-- and nothing,
it was just this idea

and this beautiful gold bottle.

And we built
this brand together.

-Amazing, the timing.
-Yeah.

Yeah.

Have you had those
experiences before

where just, like,
the things line up

-at the right time?
-All the time.
Yeah, all the time.

It's really spooky.
All the time, it happens.

I'm like, of course. [chuckles]

It got to-- it's beyond
that point.

It's-- it's beyond the point of,
"Wow, that really happened,"

-to, "Of course this happened,"
you know.
-Yeah.

It seems like we could--
if we're open to it, it comes.

-That's right.
-It comes.

Yeah.

And if you think
it's not possible,

then it's not possible.

-That's right. Yeah.
-Do you know, if you--

Once you realize
it's possible...

-That's right.
-...and you're open to it,

-it's everywhere.
-Like you say,

-you put your attention
out there.
-Yeah.

When you say it's not
gonna happen, you shut down

-the possibility of it
happening for yourself.
-Yeah.

So, even when you say
things like, you know,

the universe doesn't respond
to negative,

uh, what's the word
I'm looking for, like, energy,

like sparks of-- so if you say,
"I don't wanna be like my dad.

I'm not gonna be like my dad.
I'm not gonna be like my dad."

-You end up being
exactly like your dad.
-Yeah.

-Because the universe--
-It doesn't hear the "no."

-The negative.
-Yeah.

As opposed to saying,
"I wanna be like this."

Or, "I wanna be
in my child's life,

"and I wanna be like this,

and I wanna be a father
who's attentive."

Like, instead of saying...

setting your attentions
to what you want to do,

you're saying
what you don't want.

But-- and the universe
only hears

-the negative.
-When did you learn this?

[Jay-Z] Hm.

[sucking teeth]

I want to say around
Black Album -ish, round...

'cause I was dealing with it
a lot then.

I met my dad around Black Album.

It actually opened up
a space for me

to, like,
mature into the next.

And I obviously made
some mistakes after that,

but it definitely opened up
the idea of... of...

not running away
from the feeling of...

rejection, or abandonment,
and things like that, you know.

I would always,
like, if I get into, like,

any sort of relationship,

never wanna, like,
fully be vulnerable

because I don't-- I ain't never
want to feel that feeling

that I've had since a kid.

But, you know,
and as I've grown,

I've had so much more
understanding of my dad

and who he was,
and so much, um...

so much...

like, just relating to his pain
and his struggle,

and, like, see him
as a human being

-and not a dad and, like...
-Yeah. Yeah.

...so much understanding of,

"Wow, that's what was
going on for you."

You know, seeing it
through your lens,

you know, it's like, this is
a bad dad who left. Left.

How could you leave your kids
and bah, bah, bah, bah.

But seeing it through his lens,
it's way different.

He had a relationship
with his-- with my mom.

You know, that--
that precedes us.

-That came before us.
-Yeah.

So, that relationship
was complicated.

And then, like, his life

and his personal life
when he was gone.

Like for instance, you know,
it was a couple times

he was supposed to pick me up,
and he just never showed up.

So, imagine that hurt, right?
And that feeling

of just, like, abandonment,
and, like...

-He doesn't care. That's--
-He doesn't care.

That's the story
you tell yourself.

So, you tell yourself that story
your whole life,

you build this
kind of resentment.

-Yeah.
-And the truth about it

was my dad took a lot of pride
in his appearance.

Had the big Afro,
always kept his clothes clean.

My mom would
take credit for that.
She said, "I cleaned him up."

[both laughing]

"I put him together."
And he was just so together.

And he started using drugs
at some point.

So, his appearance
wasn't what it was.

-So it wasn't more of--
-It was shame?

-Shame.
-Yeah, didn't want to be seen.

"I can't be seen like this."

How I imagine him was like,
looking at himself in the mirror

-and just like...
-Yeah. By showing up,

-he would disappoint you.
-Exactly.

[Rick] Yeah.

That's deep.

You know, I learned that
as well in that time,

like, always try to look
through someone else's lens.

Everyone sees things different.

Like, everyone's gonna tell
a story of today differently

because it's gonna be
through their lens and through--

-Absolutely.
-Through their information,
and how they grew up,

and how they perceive things.

You know, we all have
a different camera lens.

You know, I hear stories
of someplace

that I was clearly with--
with the same people,

and I was like,
that's not what happened.

-Yeah.
-They just telling
a whole different story.

I would say before,
"You're lying.

-Why are you lying?
That's not what happened."
-Yeah, just...

And it's like, you know,
sometimes people lie.

But sometimes, people have
told themselves that story.

I'm sure I've done it before.

You've told yourself that story
so much that you believe it now.

And this is the way
you perceived it.

And each time, it gets more
fantastic than the last time.

Whenever we experience
something,

the first thing we do

-is try to make sense of it.
-Mm-hmm.

-Like, nothing really
makes sense.
-Right.

So, we-- we have
this instantaneous
reaction to something.

-Mm-hmm.
-It gets implanted in us,

and forevermore that's how
we remember it.

-Yeah.
-But we could--
could have been wrong

-with that first interpretation.
-Exactly.

We don't know.

We never know.

No matter how hurt
you are in a moment

to really think what was going
through that person's mind,

especially if it's someone
you love, to like,

really think about, like,
what they was going through.

Like, what was he going--
'cause when I got

all that understanding of,
you know,

and I-- I know his little
brother got k*lled,

his brother got stabbed.

I was maybe nine.

And this happened right after.

So, he was depressed.

Yeah, of course,
he's on drugs.

I used to look down
on that type of thing.

Was he close
with his little brother?

Yeah, and,
you know, obviously,

his charge is protect
his little brother.

And I look--
by the way, I look more like
his little brother than him.

Like my nephews, they look
more like me than their dad.

Wow.

I couldn't go to the funeral,
I was still too young.

-Yeah.
-They ain't take me to--
and I loved him so much.

I think they didn't want me
to see him like that,

'cause my sisters went.

-She only one year
older than me.
-Yeah.

It was my first moment
of, like, tragic loss.

So, it was always there.

I've talked about Uncle Ray
so many times.

-Yeah.
-It's there. Uncle Butchie,
I don't speak about much,

but he was-- he was in
the background.

He was like-- you know,
I remember--

like, the reason I have dreads
and all that,

I can dr-- draw back to him.

He had dreads and...

back when we used to run
from him for having dreads.

-Wow. Wow.
-And a hat. Like, by the way,

I-- I'm thinking of this hat
and these dreads that I have.

They used to call him weird.
He didn't eat meat.

-Yeah.
-But this is way back then.

I remember he cut himself,
his blood was so dark,

and I was like,
"What's wrong with him?"

But he was so healthy.

When he would come around,

because we all had
our hair cut low...

-Mm-hmm.
-...it was not--
this is after Afro age.

-Yeah.
-He would come with dreads
and we would be embarrassed.

-Yeah.
-'Cause he was
just so different.

Like, all these things
make sense to me now.

You know,
at that time it was like,
"What's wrong with Butchie?"

He was just-- Butchie was
super into, like,

he was super spiritual,
super into his health.

He was Rick Rubin
before Rick Rubin.

-[both laughing]
-But I had no access

-to you at that time.
-Yeah.

There was no access to anyone

that wasn't speaking of anything
but what was happening

in the hood right then and now.

I asked you about
when you had that relationship

-to projecting negativity.
-Mm.

We were in Brooklyn together.

We were filming
the 99 Problems video,

and you won't remember this,
but we were walking somewhere.

We went to a record store,
the record store

-I guess you used to go to
when you were growing up.
-We filmed there.

Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right.
Downtown Brooklyn.

-Uh-huh, yeah.
-And we were walking,

and a little girl came up to you

and said,
"Can't I get an autograph?"

-Mm.
-And you said,

"If you say 'can't,' you can't."

[Jay-Z] Mm-hmm.

"If you ask me,
'Can I get an autograph?'"...

Yeah.

"...I'll give you an autograph."

-And I loved it.
-Yeah, that's great.

Thank you for that,
I forgot about that.

-That's great.
-My pleasure.

-Yeah.
-I have another--
another personal story.

I don't know
if you remember this,

but the very first time--

we didn't meet,
but the very first time

I was in your presence
was on an airplane.

There was a flight from
Los Angeles to New York.

I was flying in first class
on American Airlines,

and I was big at the time,
and I had back issues.

-Mm-hmm.
-I sat in my seat,

and I went to recline,
and it wouldn't recline.

And I said to the stewardess,
"There's a problem
with my seat."

And she's like,
"Sorry, we're sold out.
Nothing we can do."

Like, okay.

And then, I hear from
behind me, "Excuse me."

You-- I hear, "Excuse me.

I'm happy to switch seats
with him."

And the person behind me
switched his seats with me,

and that was you.

Wow.
You gave me chills just now.

-Wow, I didn't even
remember that.
-And I didn't know it was--

-I didn't know who you were.
-Right, uh-huh.

But then, we were both
flying to New York,

and you were going to--
to do The Chris Rock Show.

-Mm-hmm.
-And I-- I went there
to see Chris Rock.

-Right. Yeah.
-'Cause we've always
been friends.

And I'm standing
on the side of the stage

and you came out
to do your song.

I was like, "That's the guy

from the airplane
who switched seats with me."

-Wow.
-That was the first time

-I knew that it was you.
-Yeah. Right.

I-- I would have said
something on the plane

-had I known, but...
-Yeah. Wow.

So, that's a good--
uh, in terms of karma.

[Jay-Z] Uh-huh.

I can attest to the fact that
I know that you believe in karma

-'cause I've seen you do
good deeds out in the world...
-Right.

-...before I even
knew who you were.
-Wow, thank you for that, man.

-Thank you for that.
-Amazing, no?

Yeah, yeah, it's incredible.

-Incredible.
-Yeah.

Let's listen to another song.

-How 'bout--
-And I had to have known you,

'cause I've known you
my whole life.

-[laughing]
-[♪ "Big Pimpin'" playing]

♪ It's big pimpin', baby ♪

♪ It's big pimpin,
spending Gs ♪

♪ Yeah, we doing big pimpin' ♪

♪ We spending cheese,
check 'em out now ♪

♪ Big pimpin' on B-L-A-Ds,
we doin' ♪

♪ Big pimpin' up in NYC ♪

♪ It's just that Jigga Man,
Pimp C and B-U-N B ♪

♪ Yo, yo, yo, big pimpin'
spendin' cheese ♪

♪ We doin' big pimpin'
on B-L-A-Ds ♪

♪ We doin' big pimpin'
up in NYC ♪

♪ It's just that Jigga Man,
Pimp C and B-U-N B ♪

♪ n*gga, it's the big
Southern rap impresario ♪

♪ Comin' straight up
out the black barrio ♪

♪ Makes a mil up off
a sorry h* ♪

♪ Then sit back and peep
my sce-nahr-io ♪

♪ Oops, my bad,
that's "My scenario" ♪

♪ No, I can't f*ck
a scary h* ♪

♪ Now every time, every place,
everywhere we go ♪

♪ Hoes start pointin',
they say, "There he go!" ♪

♪ Now, these m*therf*ckers
know we carry mo' heat ♪

♪ Than a little bit, we don't
pull it out over little sh*t ♪

♪ And if you catch a lick
when I spit, then it
won't be a little hit ♪

♪ Go read a book,
you illiterate son of a b*tch ♪

♪ And step up your vocab ♪

♪ Don't be surprised if your
h*'s there out with me ♪

♪ And you see us
comin' down on yo' slab ♪

♪ Livin' ghetto-fabulous,
so mad ♪

♪ You just can't take it ♪

♪ But n*gga, if you hate now
then you wait ♪

♪ While I get your b*tch
butt-naked, just break it ♪

♪ You gotta pay
like you weigh wet
with two pairs of clothes on ♪

♪ Now get your a*s to the back
as I fly to the track ♪

♪ Timbaland,
let me spit my prose on ♪

♪ Posted up in the pro-zone,
that's the track ♪

♪ That we breakin'
these hoes on ♪

♪ Ain't the track
that we flows on ♪

♪ But when sh*t get hot,
then the GL*CK ♪

♪ Start poppin'
like ozone... ♪