01x02 - Poor Little Rich Boy

[bunniefuu]

What do you see as the downside

to sitting down
and doing an interview,

and what do you see
as the upside?

The downside
of giving an interview

is that the interviewer
will take what I've said

to make me look
as bad as possible.

The upside is that
there will be

something out there from me.

I mean this whole time,
since I've gotten out of prison,

I've said nothing to nobody
about anything.

So, people out there
have gotten

very used to the fact they
can say anything you want,

because I'm never going
to give an interview,

so, it's never
going to be disputed.

And, and I see that a, a lot.

Um, I will be able
to tell it my way,

and if somebody
is reasonably open

to a different story
or a different,

um, situation

than what has been
put in the media,

then they'll have an
opportunity to believe it.

Anyone who knew
his life story would be sympathetic.

And it's true.
He's, he had some rough times.

Um, you talk about
the Poor, Little Rich Boy.

One thing that was very
telling that Bob said.

He said, "You know, all my life

"I've had more money
than I could spend,

and it didn't make me happy."

_

I'm the oldest.

Douglas is two years younger.

I have a sister who's


and I have a little brother
who's 7 years younger than me.

Your memories of
your time with your mother?

Happy. Happy. Happy.

What's your
first memory of that night

that your mother d*ed?

My father came and got me,
and he said,

"I'd like you to
come on over here.

I want you to, you know,
to see, see Mommy."

And we looked out a hall window

out onto the roof,
and there was Mommy.

And I waved at Mommy.

I don't know that she saw me.

It never went through
my mind that...

"What is she doing out on
the roof in her nightie?"

I mean,
it just didn't focus on me.

"There's Mommy.
Wave at Mommy.

Okay, now go on back to bed."

All of a sudden I heard the maid shouting,
"She's off the roof!"

It was a long, long fall.

_

The 4 adults who were there
reported that she fell.

Whether they reported that
because they didn't want to say

she committed su1c1de,
I have no idea.

I never forgot it.
I mean, it happened.

I was there. I saw it...
Whatever I saw.

It, it never left me.

I went to the funeral.

I mean, if you ever
have an opportunity

which you're
better off not taking

a 7-year-old child
to a funeral.

That was a disaster.

People are telling me,
"Ah, your mommy will be safe.

She'll be right here."

And they're starting to lower
the coffin into the ground.

And I'm going, "Wait a minute.

Mommy's in this box?"

"Oh, yes.
She'll be right here."

"Get Mommy out of the box!
I don't want Mommy in the box."

And I jumped out
and tried to stop the guys

from lowering this box in,
into the ground.

After that,
they had a big problem with me,

because I would run away.

They took me to school,
I would run away.

At home I would run away.

A number of times,
they had to call the police to go find me.

I would just run away
and go hide somewhere.

Did your dad do
anything to make up for

the disappearance of
your mother in your life?

Did he say, "Well, now I'm going to
come home more frequently"

or "I'm going to change..."?

He never said that.
And he did not.

My father was not there
like he should have been.

Did you confront your dad about it
later on in your life?

Oh, I confronted him
with the whole thing.

You know, way back when,
when I got 12, 13, 14.

What was his response?

He wouldn't go there.

Bob carried around with him

a number of photographs
from his life.

It's very touching to see
what mattered to him.

He had several pictures of, uh,
himself with Kathie.

He had pictures
of their wedding.

_

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Which one of those
pictures is Kathie?

Kathie? Oh.

This is Kathie.

That's when we lived in Hollis.

She was always
nice-looking.

She had a brain.
That's the thing.

She was probably smarter than me.

_

Bob must have been
out with his friends,

and that's how she met him.

All his pick up.

The worst thing that ever happened,
I think. Really.

_

"What did you do with her?"

Because he's the...
The key is with him.

Where is she, Bob?
What did you do with her?

I didn't meet him right away.

I heard about him.

That he was courting her,
and she was you know very...

"swept off her feet" is the way
I like to describe it.

You know, he just came on
like Prince Charming.

Um, and she was
basically Cinderella.

She thought I was
good-looking in my little way.

Cute, or whatever it was.

And she was very
outgoing and social,

and got along
with people real good.

So, it was perfect.

Because I don't
get along with people.

Most people don't
get along with me.

_

We met in the fall of '71.

I was living and working
in New York City,

whereas Bob was visiting
New York City from Vermont.

I had this health food
store in my mind

and then I met Kathie.

And she, we got along great,

and she was right away
in favor of it.

After two dates, he asked me

to come live with him
in Vermont,

and I did, in January of '72.

My very first impression of
Kathie and Bobby when I met them

was that they were in love.

There was no two ways about it.
They were in love.

In late March,
the question of marriage came up.

We were as close then
as we probably ever were.

Did you see yourself staying
in Vermont for a long time?

Oh, yeah.
This was it.

This is what I was going to do.

_

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_

_

_

Every October,
we would go up to

the cemetery where
my mother was.

My father said,
"You know, one day I'm going to be

over here"...
Pointing next to my mother.

"Please let me,
when I come here, know that,

that the business is being
taken care of by you."

_

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_

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_

I remember very early on

being enamored by
his family success.

The business, at that time,
it was 8...

it was reported in one of the,
I think it was Forbes,

$880,000,000 family dynasty.

And I said, "Wow,
maybe I can learn from this guy."

And when I tried to
engage him in discussions,

he kind of changed the subject.

He never was friendly.

To me, I don't think.

You never could like converse
with him or anything, you know.

He wasn't that friendly.
He was an oddball.

Kathie's mother
was very interested

in Bob Durst "liking me."

And Bob Durst
"conversing with me."

Her favorite reading material
was the magazine

Yankee, a New England thing.

And she,
she would want to talk to me

about the articles in Yankee.

I don't know.
I'm not interested in

talking about canning.

These experiences with her
family were kind of like

"Bob meets the average
American family."

Well, more than "meet."

"Bob is forced
to spend time with

the average
American family."

"Bob is supposed to be polite
and cooperative and pleasant,

and engage in the same
conversations that they are."

And I just couldn't do that.

As we're going back in the car,

Kathie is crying, and saying,
"They're all good people.

"They treated us
with utmost respect.

You can just put up
with it for two hours."

Did you say, "I'll try"?

I wouldn't talk about it.

If you were with Kathie's mother,
what would you say?

"I feel bad about
the way I treated you."

"That you're
a good person."

"I am complicit in Kathie's
not being here."

I was the last person
to see Kathie in New York.

And the very first
thing we did,

as soon as we got
through the door,

she picked up the phone
and phoned Bob.

And said,
"I'm here with Geraldine."

And I said to her,
"Do you always phone Bob?"

And she said, "Yes,
he always wants to know where I am."

We said to Kathie,
"Don't forget.

You have to be
up in the morning at 8:00."

They were going to go up
to the South Salem house.

She said she really
didn't want to go.

And I said,
"So, tell him you can't go."

And she looked at me like
I'd just sprouted horns.

And she said,
"Are you kidding? He'd k*ll me."

I was having a late afternoon
dinner party for my family.

And Kathie really
wasn't invited.

But when Kathie called me
that morning and said,

"Gilberte,
I need to get out of here,"

I'm not going to tell
my best friend "no."

Everybody was getting along,

and everybody was enjoying,
you know.

It was just a nice evening.

And I can remember very clearly
the telephone calls.

And Bobby insisting that
Kathie come home

and Kathie being visibly shaken
after the phone calls.

She went out.
She warmed up the Mercedes.

She came back in and she said,
"I'm leaving now."

So we stood on the front porch.

She said to me,
"Gilberte, promise me.

"If something happens,
you'll check it out.

I'm afraid of Bobby."

And I just said,
"Kathie, of course.

You can count on me."

It didn't even register
that she was

telling me that for some
dreadful reason.

I just didn't get it.

Gilberte called me.

And she asked me if I had heard
from Kathie, and I said, "No."

And she said, "Well,
I was supposed to go to the city.

I was supposed to meet her."

I was waiting for Kathie
and waiting for Kathie

and she never showed up.

The phone rang, and we pick up
the phone and it's Bob Durst.

And his gravelly voice...
I can still hear the voice,

because he has that sound...
He said, "Jim. This is Bob."

You know, words to that effect.

"Do you know where Kathie is?"

And I was like, "Bob,
I don't know where Kathie is.

You know, I'm presuming she's,
she's with you."

Kathie is off the grid.

Something happened.

My name is Michael Struk.

I'm retired as a detective from

the New York City
Police Department.

Can you just read the details?

Yeah.

So, when I, when I initiated

the, uh, the missing persons
brief narrative,

it said, "The complainant,
Robert Durst,

"was present at the 2-0 Precinct,
Precinct Detective Unit

"and states that
his wife of 9 years,

"who is currently
a fourth-year medical student

"at the Albert Einstein
Medical Center,

"has not been seen
since Sunday evening,

"January 31, 1982.

"The subject is the
daughter-in-law of

wealthy real estate
executive Seymour Durst."

We went over the events of Sunday,
January 31.

Mr. Durst stated
that he and his wife

had gone to South Salem
Grocery Store

to get a newspaper.

They came home for breakfast.

Kathie went to Gilberte's house
later in the afternoon,

around 3:30, 4:00.

And she utilized the Mercedes.

Kathie returned back to
South Salem at about 7:30.

She had appeared
to have been drinking,

but that she wasn't drunk.

Mr. Durst stated that
they had a sandwich together.

And then later left
for the Katonah Station

at about 8:30 P.M.

And according to him,
it appeared that

she did get on a train.

He then returned back
to the house in South Salem.

As he was going to the house,
he had observed

his neighbor Bill Mayer.

He had a drink with Mr. Mayer.

He further stated he
then went for a walk.

Later called his wife
from a pay phone.

And that had occurred at about 11:00,


She stated that she was fine,
and that she was watching TV.

After the call to his wife,
Durst says that

he walks home
and he goes to sleep.

Police are satisfied
that the 28-year-old, 5' 6"

Mrs. Durst made it to the city,

and got to the couple's
apartment on Riverside Drive.

The night doorman told them
he saw her come in

at about 11:30 Sunday night

and go up to the Durst penthouse
on top of the 15-story building.

The doorman
at 37 Riverside Drive

saw her arrive home that Sunday
evening and go to her apartment.

And she was
heard from Monday morning.

Mrs. Durst was a fourth-year
medical student

here at the Albert Einstein
College of Medicine.

And she was to have
a clinic class that morning,

but she called up saying
she wasn't feeling well.

She had called
the dean of the Medical School

and told the dean that
she couldn't make it

because she was sick.

As far as police know,

that's the last time that
anyone had contact with her.

Good evening.
She talked on the telephone

with her husband and with
a supervisor at a medical center.

Then she vanished.

That was more than a week ago.

And no one has seen
Kathleen Durst since.

- She's gone.
- Nobody's heard from her.

There's no crime scene.

There's no telephone activity
or checking account activity.

Credit card activity. Zero.
It's almost like "poof."

Right off the face
of the earth.

2-0 Detectives Squad.

Yeah, is Lieutenant Gibbons in?

- Yeah.
- He is?

- Yeah.
- Can you transfer me in to him?

This is Jim McCormack,
Kathie Durst's brother.

- Hey, listen, Jim.
- There's two ways of viewing

this thing, you know,
at this stage.

And I wouldn't bullshit you.

She's either dead,
or she voluntarily left.

I wouldn't be surprised as to the second,
as a matter of fact.

When a guy comes in
and says the wife is gone,

right away,
not that you're jaded about the effort

that you're going to put forth,
but it's like,

"Yeah, well, you know,
maybe she's shacking up

"or, or she's just
tired of this guy.

"Maybe he's a,
he's a, he's a banana

"and she doesn't just want to

involve herself
with him anymore."

And then she took off.

That happens all the time.

Is there any
reason at this point

to suspect that she
might have been k*lled,

kidnapped, anything like that?

No. No.
At this point there's nothing

to indicate any
foul play at all.

Do you remember what he said

about the state
of the marriage?

Sure, that would,
that's always...

The, the state
of their marriage...

That's, that's,
that's a common question

you have to ask
when a spouse is

reporting another
spouse missing.

You know,
I don't remember his exact words,

but like, "Well, you know, like

"every other family,
you know, we may have

occasional argument,"
or something like that.

_

Kathie was very protective of

the negatives of
the relationship.

She'd always share
the good things.

You know,
happy to tell us about

the trips and the decorating

and the new house in
South Salem on the lake.

But when there were issues...
Fights, whatever...

You didn't hear about it.

Spring of '79.

We return from a party.
Both drunk.

We argued and he slapped me.

Fall of '79, we were both sober

and argued about
some minor issue.

He punched me, and I fell to the ground...
Hit my leg.

The fights between them
started to become more intense.

With the verbal arguments
and the escalating v*olence,

when you start to put it
all together after the fact,

you realize that the whole
thing was boiling over.

_

I don't know.
I think she was afraid of him.

_

About two or 3 weeks
into Kathie being gone,

I was really angry.

Because there was so much
that wasn't being done.

So, we went down
into New York City

to have a meeting
with Michael Struk.

I can even recall them coming
from time to time with,

with an entourage...


All really relating
all these incidents

of v*olence and threats.

And they were kind of...
Eh, you know, laissez faire about it.

They weren't about...
You know, they didn't jump up

and take notes and say,
"Oh, my goodness."

I became a little
annoying to a lot of people.

I became a lot annoying
to some people.

As the case went forward
after a long time,

you know, a lot of these things
became very redundant.

"In case something happens to me,
you know, Bob did it."

Blah blah blah.

_

- Excuse me, "Senior detectives."
- Senior detectives.

Gilberte got onto
the train at Katonah,

and made the ride on the train
at 9:15 going into the city.

And started asking
everybody on the train

if they had seen Kathie,

showing them
a photograph of Kathie.

Nobody had seen her.

I stood outside for shifts.

Like 5 or 6 different shifts,

showing the nurses
a picture of Kathie.

"Is she in there?
Is she in there?

Please tell me she's in there."

And then we're going
to the reservoirs

and we're looking
for tire tracks.

We were just so, um,
motivated to find Kathie no matter what.

Anyway, Ellen became involved.

Ah.

_

"1982.

Sunday, March 7..."

"Midnight. Met Gilberte.


drove to South Salem."

"12:30 to 2:30,
garbage escapade," I called it.

I said to Ellen,
"We're going to steal garbage.

You up for this?"
"Yeah, let's go."

She's my co-conspirator
in crime.

She helps me steal the garbage.

We parked,
and I waited in the car.

I was to have the doors open
so she could throw the garbage in,

and then we took off.

We drove back to her kitchen.

We spread everything
out on the floor.

We started sorting through it.

And that's when we find
he was throwing out

her clothes
and her schoolbooks.

And it was like "This man
knows she's not coming back."

And then we found

a piece of paper
in Bob's handwriting

that practically brought us out
in goose bumps.

Town dump, bridge, dig, boat,
other, shovel or?,

car, truck, rent.

This list was a list
of things to do

and how to get rid of...
Or dispose of a body.

"Boat" or "Dig"
or "Bridge" and "Shovel"...

What does that mean to me
in February of 1982?

Um... What are you
going to do with a shovel

in February in South Salem?

I'm sure there's frost.

You're not going to be able
to dig a hole or bury somebody,

if that's what
we would be thinking.

I was so mad
and I was so sure that

he had m*rder*d Kathie
and that he was

going to get away with it.

I was actually stalking him.

I was standing outside
the building and he came out.

And I decided,
"Well, I better act like things are okay,"

so, I come up,
"Oh, Bobby! Bobby!"

And I give him
a hug and a kiss,

and "How are you doing?

How are you holding up?"
You know?

I could have just as easily
put my hands around his neck

and choked the life out of him
at that moment.

Trying to get Bob
to respond to any calls

was near impossible.

You didn't even
know where he was.

So, our family was
in New York City,

and we actually were
able to get Seymour

to pick up the phone
at his townhouse.

And we got ourselves
basically invited over.

We kept pressing him.

"Seymour, what can you tell us?
How can you help?"

And it was like,
"Well, I don't know anything."

It was like almost defensive.

I hate to use that phrase, but eh,
I should use that phrase.

It was almost defensive.

There was no warmth or empathy
from a guy whose daughter-in-law

is missing under the strangest

and most bizarre
of circumstances.

And the weird thing was a son,

I think it was Tom,
came in in a trench coat.

And, you know, asked his father,
"What's going on here?"

And they had a discussion
that this was

the McCormacks and we're
looking for help

on Kathie's disappearance.

And Tom said,
"This discussion's over."

Just like that.

If she had met some
normal type guy from Long Island,

she would have had a bunch of
kids like her, her siblings.

And she would have lived a...
I hate to say "normal,"

but I don't know
how else to put it...

An average or
something like that life.

It was just finding me,
and then the whole, uh, scenario,

it just kept getting blown up

and getting worse and worse
and worse and worse.

What was the dynamic
between you and Kathie?

I was the dominant one
in the relationship.

I was making all the decisions.

"Calling all the sh*ts,"
as she would say.

And, you know, she went along

with that for a while, and then

she just got tired of it.

She said she wants
her independence.

She doesn't want me to be
controlling her all the time.

Was there a dividing line
when she began that change?

Kathie first started
changing from

the Kathie I met
when I made her

get an abortion.

February of '76,

I found out I was pregnant.

We used birth control
and had at one time said

if I was to become pregnant,
I would have an abortion.

The reality of the situation, however,
was problematic for me.

I said,
"I told you from the beginning

"I didn't want children.

"You agreed that we
wouldn't have children.

"Now you're telling me you want a...
You're pregnant,

"which, you know,
you're in charge of that stuff, not me.

"And you want to keep the baby.

"Well, you keep the baby,

"you're going to get
divorced from me.

Period."

I mean, you sound like you were
pretty adamant about it, and why...

I was strictly adamant.

I just didn't want kids around.

I didn't want to raise a...
Children.

I, I, I, somehow I thought
I would be a jinx.

That you might be
a jinx for them?

Yeah.

And I, I knew I wasn't
going to be a good father.

A little more than half a year

after she started
at medical school,

she said the two of you
went to a party,

and that you were both drunk,

and you came home and that was

the first time
that she remembers

that you had hit her.

Do you remember that?

No. I don't remember
the first time

I had slapped her or hit her.

Do you remember
other times that, that...?

Well, yeah.
By, by 1981,

our life was half arguments,

fighting, slapping,
pushing, wrestling.

It deteriorated from there on.

It never got better.
It got worse and worse.

So, the night
that she disappeared,

that Sunday night,
or the last night

that you saw her,
do you want to just take me

through what you remember
happening that night?

She's going to Gilberte's
for a party.

She's taking the car.
"Do I want to come?"

Not, "Do you want to go to
Gilberte's for a party?"

but "I'm going to go,
and I'm taking the car.

You can come if you...
Yeah, you want to come?"

"No,
I don't want to come."

That was the weekend.
I didn't like that at all.

She gets back
from Gilberte's maybe



Angry at me. Loaded.

And announcing that she
wants to go to the city.

I said, "You can go
to the city if you want,

"but you, you know,
you can't drive

because I'm not going
to go to the city."

And she says,
"No, I'm taking the car."

And I went and got
the keys out of the car,

and told her she's
not taking the car

because I'm not
giving her the keys.

That was an argument.

Was that argument
just a verbal argument?

No, that was
a pushing/shoving argument.

And so, eventually, she capitulated
and she agreed to take the 9:17?

At the last minute.

At first, well, she just wasn't

answering her calls.

But she was doing a subintern
in the hospital,

which involves staying over
a lot of nights.

And I wasn't worried.

It wasn't until I got a call
from the medical school,

and she hadn't been
in classes for several days.

And I thought,
"I've got to do something."

I went and I talked
to my father

and my brother Douglas,
and they all said,

"You know,
you two have been having

"all these arguments
all these years.

"She's probably just
over there or over there.

"You go and report it
to the police,

"they're not going
to do anything,

"but you're going to
get all this press

dealing with
the family."

They discouraged me from
reporting it to the police

until it got to be
Thursday night.

And then I just felt like
"I'm worried.

This is what I should do."
And I did it.

On my own,
I called the 20th Precinct.

Going into the police
station when you...

- I hated it.
- I didn't want to do it.

The idea of talking to them,

and the idea of trying
to convince them...

Because they at first
didn't want to hear about it.

"Got any problems
in the marriage?"

"Yes."

"Well, don't you think she
probably just took off?

"I mean, obviously,
things weren't good.

She blah blah," like that.

And I said,
"Except for medical school.

She's not going to take off
and not graduate."

I can't really say that

at that point
in my initial meeting

that I could detect that he was
lying on anything he said to me.

Because his story was, was, was

fairly logical as
he laid it out.

New York City Police
had some reason to believe that

Bobby had taken her
to the train station

and possibly come back
here for a drink.

He just, I assume,
fabricated that story,

without ever coming here
for a drink,

nor even discussing
with us in any way.

So, he didn't ask us
to lie for him.

He just, I guess,
kind of fibbed for himself.

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Yeah, well, what is it?
It's, it's an inconsistency.

It's not...
Mayer could be wrong, too.

So, I, you know, I mean,
really at that point,

it's just another little piece
that you have to kind of

plug in the back and, um,
and go forward.

You told Detective Struk

that the Sunday night
that you last saw Kathie,

you had dropped her off
at the station

And then you went to
the Mayers' for a drink.

The neighbors.

Yeah, that's what
I told the police.

I was hoping that would just
make everything go away.

I didn't go to the Mayers'.

I took her
to the train station,

went home, and went to sleep.

And why, why would that have
made everything go away?

I don't know.
I'm at the Mayers'.

They wanted to hear,
"What did you do?,"

so, I told them I did that.

I, I just never got
through my mind...

it was like a negotiation.

You tell somebody something,
and, well, that's it.

They don't go back there.
They don't look for motive.

"Why is he telling me this?"
kind of thing.

I thought that
would get them to,

you know, leave me alone,

accept the missing person,
like that.

There was some
discussion about...

That you spoke to her
at some point.

- Yes, yes.
- That was the last part of my,

you know, "The police are going to
leave you alone now."

I say, I said,
"I called her."

And I said, "I stopped at
a pay phone on the way home."

Or "I went out
for a walk later,

"and I, and I called her
from the pay phone.

"She answered the, the phone.

And that puts her
in the city."

And they were going
to leave me alone now.

Did you end up speaking
to her that night?

No.

We really did trust the police

and the procedure,

and you know,
admittedly it failed.

Failed Kathie.

_

I felt very, very angry,
frustrated, stonewalled,

in being able to get Bob.

Bob got away with
murdering Kathie.

He got away with it.

There's no corpse.

We don't even have
a crime scene.

No corpse, no crime scene.

We got...
This is a missing persons case.

I really believe
that some way, somehow,

somebody's going to come and
tell me what happened to Kathie.

And if I don't get that,
I'll sit there as an old woman

wondering what I did wrong,
and how I let my friend down.

Because I need to know.

I need to know
what happened to Kathie.