02x03 - Saving My Tears Until It's Official

[bunniefuu]

- [eerie music playing]
- [quiet street noise]

[distant dog barking]

[beep] - voicemail [on
phone]: Saturday, 6:15 p.m.

- [beep]
- Sandra [on voicemail]:

- [Hangs up]
- [beep]

♪♪

Robin Karr-Morse: I remember
it was Christmas time.

Susan was very agitated.

She kept talking
about the fact that

she needed money. She
was fairly desperate.

And that she was really scraping

the bottom of the barrel.

At which point, I told her
I'd send her some money.

- [beep]
- Sareb Kaufman [on voicemail]:

- [Hangs up]
- [beep]

And she kept on talking about

the fact that someone was coming

and that she was
nervous about it.

And she was

going to blow the
situation wide open.

That's what she said.

- [phone static]
- [beep]

Jeff [on voicemail]:

- [Beep]
- Karr-Morse: I finally said,

"Susie, what in the hell
are you talking about?"

♪♪

And she said, "I would
tell you, Robbie,

but your life would
be in danger."

I feel really badly
that I didn't get her

to tell me what she was
gonna "blow wide open."

[sighs]

Because that was the last
conversation I had with Susie.

- [beep]
- Karr-Morse [on voicemail]:

[Busy signal beeping]

[hangs up] - [answering
machine clicking, beeps]

["Survivor" by Nathaniel Rateliff
& The Night Sweats playing]

♪ Well, you just
think that I'm ♪

♪ Some great survivor ♪

[static]

♪ And you just build upon ♪

♪ The light to carry you ♪

[shutter snapping]

♪ Well, I don't
even talk that way ♪

♪ See, I wanted you to stay ♪

♪ And show you the
world's a better place ♪

[scuttling]

♪ And as we crawl
to find our way ♪

♪ We even take the shape
of something else ♪

[shutter snaps]

- ♪ You think that I'm just ♪
- [g*nsh*t]

♪ Some great survivor ♪

♪ You think that I'm just ♪

[shutters snapping]

♪ Some great survivor ♪

♪ I'm afraid that the
weight of the world ♪

♪ Is catching up with you ♪

♪♪

[scuttling]

[wind blowing]

[light music playing]

[pulls up chair]

- [on phone] Hi.
- [on phone] Hi.

Robert Durst: How are you?

I'm alright. How are you?

[curious music playing]

newscaster 1: The case
against Robert Durst.

Newscaster 2: After months
of preliminary hearings,

the actual trial is
finally starting.

[lights click, buzz]

newscaster 3: That's right,
California versus Robert Durst.

[Durst speaking on phone]

[Debrah Lee Charatan
speaking on phone]

newscaster: Media coverage
expected to be so intense

there may not be enough seats
for reporters in the courtroom.

- [screaming]
- [audience laughing]

Andy Richter: Oh,
my God! Get him out!

Alright, take a seat.
What's your name, bud?

- My name is Robert Durst.
- [audience laughter]

[Charatan speaking]

[Durst speaking]

Alex Trebek: This HBO docuseries
helped bring down Robert Durst.

- Alex? That's it.
- What's "The Jinx"?

[Durst speaking]

- Did you see "The Jinx"?
- [laughter]

This guy k*lled three people,

and yet you'll watch it, and
you'll go, "I like this guy.

- [laughter]
- Why do I like this guy?"

[birds chirping]

John Lewin: I found
Bob very entertaining.

I'd be lying if I said
I didn't find Bob funny.

Just 'cause you're a m*rder*r

doesn't mean you
can't be charming.

I made sure that our case

was not gonna live or die

on whether some people
found Bob appealing.

I have hundreds of
pieces of evidence

to prove he's a k*ller.

[Wild West music playing]

Savannah Guthrie: Defense attorney
d*ck DeGuerin joins us now.

Good morning to you, sir.

d*ck DeGuerin: The
prosecutors jumped the g*n

because of "The Jinx."

You know, it's all
in the editing.

The editing was designed
for good television,

but it wasn't designed
to get to the truth.

As a defense lawyer,

you need to know the case

better than the prosecution.

[door creaks]

And the case is weak.

Remember, these are
the same lawyers

that got him off in Texas.

[creaking]

And I knew the defense
team had done some polling

and discovered that

there was a lot of
sympathy for Bob's frailty.

Personally, I thought there was

a little theatricality
at work here.

I look better when I've grown
a couple of months of hair.

But I'm thinking maybe the
jury will like me better

with my shunt standing
right out there.

[judge speaking]

[door creaks]

[Durst speaking]

- [Wild West music playing]
- [wheelchair rattling]

Michael Belcher:
Bob is wheeled out,

and I think he had
shaved his head

- to make the stent, you know...
- David Belcher: The shunt.

- Shunt, sorry. The shunt...
- Stent goes in your heart.

- Okay, so...
- Shunt goes in your head.

[both laugh]

♪♪

Carlos Leal: My initial impression
of Bob was this weak old man.

Think he was in his wheelchair,

and, you know, they
were telling us

how he has all these ailments.

He was, um, a lot
smaller than I expected.

A lot older, too.
Like, frail-looking.

In his wheelchair,

uh, with his catheter bag.

For one thing, I
kind of questioned

whether he even was aware
of what was going on.

[courtroom chatter]

[clears throat]

Please be seated. Thank you.

Welcome to the People
versus Robert Durst.

Mr. Durst is present.

His lawyers are present,

Mr. DeGuerin, Mr. Chesnoff,

and for the People, Mr. Balian

and Mr. Lewin.

If there is a lot of publicity,

if there are forces operating

on the trial

that are unusual,

that presents challenges.

But it's your
obligation as a judge

to allow the jurors
to do their work.

It's alleged on or
between December 22, 2000,

and December 23, 2000, in
the county of Los Angeles,

the crime of m*rder

was committed by Robert Durst,

who did unlawfully and
with malice aforethought

m*rder Susan Berman,
a human being.

It's further alleged
that Susan Berman

was a witness to a crime

and was intentionally
k*lled because of that fact.

Lewin: It's impossible
to understand

anything that happened

unless you understand
where it started.

[soft, somber music playing]

It started with Bob and Kathie.

You have to understand
the domestic violence,

the horrible way he treated her.

When you understand that,
you will now understand

that Bob was responsible
for her death.

[fireplace crackling]

And you will now
understand the lies

that Bob told about
how she disappeared.

Newscaster: Robert
Durst told police

he'd driven his wife
from their country house

in South Salem, New York

to this nearby train station,

where she boarded
the city-bound train

headed for their
Manhattan apartment

and a busy week
at medical school.

But no one close to Kathie
would see her again.

But Mrs. Durst was heard
from Monday morning.

She was a fourth-year
medical student

at the Albert Einstein
College of Medicine,

and she was to have a
clinic class that morning.

But she called up saying
she wasn't feeling well,

and she wouldn't be in that
day. And as far as police know,

that's the last time that
anyone had contact with her.

♪♪

Lewin: Bob's whole story
depends on this phone call

that Kathie supposedly
made to the medical school.

Bailiff: The whole truth
and nothing but the truth,

- so help you God?
- I do.

Lewin: That call is the
reason police believe.

Kathie made it back to the city
and was alive Monday morning.

If the call didn't
come from Kathie,

then Bob's alibi falls apart.

Habib Balian: I really
felt that it was important

for our jury to hear

that when Dr. Kuperman
said that Kathie called,

he really wasn't sure.

He just said that
because it was a woman

who said it was Kathie Durst.

I don't believe anyone
questioned him in detail

about why he thought that
was Kathie on the phone.

Those questions had
never been asked.

- [papers rustling]
- Dr. Kuperman,

tell us what you
remember about this call.

The woman stated that
she was Kathie Durst

and that she would be absent.

And I asked her why,

and she said she
had some diarrhea.

Perhaps a headache was
in there. I'm not sure.

And for all those reasons,

she didn't think it was possible

to come to that c

that was the first day of
that particular clerkship.

Balian: In your 40 years
as the dean of education

of the Albert Einstein
Medical School,

other than this case
involving Kathleen Durst,

have you ever been
contacted by a student

to say that they
were going to be sick

and not show up for a clerkship?

No.

Kathie would not
have called in sick

to the first day of a rotation.

It's patently absurd.

Bailiff: Do you solemnly state that
the testimony you're about to give

will be the truth,
the whole truth,

and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

- Classmate 1: I do.
- Bailiff: Please be seated.

Lewin: And in your experience,
how sick would a student

have to be to call in
sick to a rotation?

Classmate 1: Comatose.
You would go.

Classmate 2: The culture
was that you hung in there

until you were about... until
you fell over, basically.

You show up even if you have
to drag the IV pole with you.

Once you decide that Kathie
did not make the call,

then you're left with,
"Okay, who made the call?"

The person it would
had to have come from

is Bob's best
friend, Susan Berman.

Susan made that call.

That's our whole case. Okay,
Bob k*lled Kathie. Yep.

Loyal Susan helps Bob. Yep.

Susan has this over Bob. Yep.

And Susan carries this
secret for almost 18 years.

[echoing click]

- [papers rustle]
- Everybody still with me?

[speakers murmur]

In late 1999,

New York State police detectives

began reinvestigating
Kathie's disappearance.

♪♪

Susan told Bob Durst

that she had been
contacted by investigators

and they wanted to speak
to her about Kathie.

Despite her loyalty,

Susan was not somebody
who he apparently believed

would keep her mouth
shut to the police.

And so, Susan,

she is a lingering
and continuing threat

and she needs to be eliminated.

[g*nsh*t]

[casing clattering]

[Durst speaking]

[TV news theme music playing]

newscaster: Okay, wait a minute.

They're gonna try to prove

a m*rder in New York from 1982,

while they're proving
the case before the jury,

a m*rder in California.

Guest: It just seems like a
ton of connections to make

in order to get a conviction.

[distorted wind blowing]

I think that it's
gonna be difficult.

[somber music playing]

[quiet reporter chatter]

[equipment rattling]

Good, good, good? Yeah? Perfect.

[Durst speaking]

[Charatan speaking]

When I looked at the evidence
in the Susan Berman case,

I said, "This case can be won."

I'm salivating

'cause I know that we have

a tremendous reasonable
doubt argument.

Was spun from whole cloth.

It began in part as a result

of a fictional movie
that Jarecki made.

- [reporters chattering]
- [shutters snapping]

The fictional,

I emphasize the word
"fictional," movie...

Jarecki presented as
one of the theories

that Susan Berman
had impersonated.

Kathie at some point.

That's how it started.

All from a movie.

♪♪

All from a movie.

♪♪

David Chesnoff: I don't think
anybody ever had come up with that

before it was in the
film. I don't know where

what, what created that

for the screenwriter
or the producer,

but I was convinced that

but for that reference
in the movie,

law enforcement would never
have dug in at the school.

So, the Hollywood producer
who made up this story

is the one that's provided
the Hollywood script

for why we're here.

Also, you will hear evidence

that it was Kathie Durst
who called that morning.

Kathie had a history
of calling out sick

instead of attending school.

This was nothing new to Kathie.

Kathie was all over the place

and was living an unstable life.

Kathie was a sweet gal
and everybody loved her,

but she did have problems.

She had alcohol
and coke problems.

No. No.

[DeGuerin speaking]

Yes, sir.

[DeGuerin speaking]

classmate: No question about it.

In cross-examination,

you're not gonna have
a Perry Mason moment

where the person that's just
testified to something says,

"Oh, well, I give up. I lied."

What you have to show
is whatever reasons

a person has

to either color their testimony

or exaggerate or
leave facts out.

DeGuerin: That Monday
when the call came in

[phone ringing] ...Kuperman
was covering for another dean.

And this Dr. John Cook

had told Kuperman

that Kathie'd been
missing classes.

She was in some trouble.

[DeGuerin speaking]

[Dr. Albert Kuperman speaking]

[DeGuerin speaking]

[tense music playing]

[DeGuerin speaking]

I'm Albert Kuperman.

I've been at
Einstein since 1975.

[Andrew Jarecki speaking]

I got a phone call.
It was a Monday,

to the best of my recollection.

[DeGuerin speaking]

DeGuerin/Jarecki: "Had you had enough
contact with her prior to that..."

Jarecki: To recognize her voice?

Kuperman: Well, you know.
Phones are different.

But it sounded like her.

[DeGuerin speaking]

[Kuperman speaking]

[inaudible]

[DeGuerin speaking]

[Kuperman speaking]

[Durst speaking]

The discrepancies that
DeGuerin unearthed

could cause doubt for the jury.

So now, Lewin is
gonna have to prove

that Susan is the one
who made that call.

[Hon. Mark Windham speaking]

[Lewin speaking]

[curious music playing]

Lynda Obst was a close
friend of Susan's

and she moved out to Los Angeles

to become a Hollywood producer.

[shutter snaps]

One of her first projects was

they had optioned Susan's
book "Easy Street"

about the Mafia,

and Lynda was working with Susan

to try to turn it
into a screenplay.

Yes.

[Lewin speaking]

I was afraid I might.

[episode playing on TV]

Watching "The Jinx,"

I would say from the middle
of the first episode on,

my heart was pounding.
Was just pounding.

Because I'd never put
it all together before.

It was all in the
abstract for me.

I never really understood
the story with Kathie before

because I only had
what Susan told me.

So everything started... It
was like a rush of information

and I think I felt
very overwhelmed.

Susan Berman: I
grew up with a man

who was very career-orientated.

My dad was Davey Berman.
He was one of the pioneers,

mobster, gangsters, whatever
you wanna basically say,

that founded Las Vegas.

He ran his downtown clubs,

and then, he was also a
partner with Ben Siegel

in the Flamingo hotel.

♪♪

Karr-Morse: Susan's
dad thought nothing of

doing what he needed
to do for the Mafia.

Susie knew that

and she admired the fact that

he was nobody to be messed with.

I mean, she really
idolized her dad.

But, he died when she was 12.

We became fast friends

because we were the
only two girls in school

who didn't have parents.

Susie talked about her mother

having had some nervous

difficulties, and I
don't know exactly

what caused her death.

Berman: My mother had had a
series of nervous breakdowns

that started before he died.

She may have committed suicide.
That's what the autopsies say.

I've heard that she possibly
could've been m*rder*d.

It was an isolating life.

But, the thing that
meant the most to her,

that my father was happy.

Lynda Obst: The mother
internalized every secret

and nurtured every wound.

But in Susan's mind,
she was a saint.

And her saintliness was in
total devotion to her husband.

And that's what Susan
wanted to be with Bob Durst.

She was living this fantasy

that she created for her
mother and her father.

She was projecting herself

into her mother's
situation with Bobby.

♪♪

She was protecting him,

and she was keeping his secrets.

♪♪

[line ringing]

♪♪

[Durst speaking]

Lewin: What I can tell
you is that I can detonate

the "he said/she said."

Because there's another
piece of evidence

and it really demonstrates

that Susan appears
to be involved.

[phone ringing]

I got a call at the office,

and the person
says, "Are you aware

"that there is a
conversation, a recording,

"between Albert Goldman
and Susan Berman

that took place nine days
after Kathie disappeared?"

And I say, "No, I
was not aware of it."

My first question is,
"Who's Albert Goldman?"

- [typing]
- [curious music playing]

I'm one of the best
investigative reporters,

I think, in the world today.

Charles Bagli: Albert
Goldman was a sort of

pop culture author, critic,

- gossip columnist.
- [tape rewinding]

And even though the
conversation was supposed

to be just between
friends and off the record

[garbled voices] Goldman
recorded everything.

Berman [on tape]: I'm
a little bit psychic.

You know, I can sorta
foretell things...

And I'm listening to it,

and I'm thinking,

the best single piece
of evidence we have

that shows Susan helped Bob
cover up Kathie's m*rder

would be that tape.

[Berman speaking]

Jarecki: Did you ever
hear of a recording

made by the writer
Albert Goldman

of a call he had
with Susan Berman

back in 1982 right after
Kathie disappeared?

I heard about it,

but I've never heard
it. I'd love to hear it.

[Berman speaking]

Lisa DePaulo: That's a lie.

There's no way she thought
of Susan as her best friend.

She had best friends.
They loved her.

Berman [on phone]: At first,

like, the police wouldn't
even take it seriously.

"Runaway wife." Well, dig this.

First of all, Kathie's not
a calculating Jewish girl

who would know how to run away.

Number two, she had no
lovers. I knew her intimately.

Number three, he had cut
off all her charge cards.

And number four, there was no
activity on her checking account.

She could not go
anywhere, you know?

Nah.

DePaulo: It-It's like
she had a checklist.

She was, like, narrowing it down

to the best story
that would explain

why Kathie was nowhere.

"Oh my. What
happened to Kathie?"

But it sounds good,

and that's what's going on here.

Susan's drawing
Albert into a story

but, at the same time,

checking the possible scenarios

that she might tell the
police or the media.

[Berman speaking]

Berman: Okay, let me
ask you something.

- This is confidential, right?
- Whoa! Whoa!

- [click]
- I mean,

to talk like that about...

a m*rder*d woman?

It's ugly.

[Berman speaking]

She just degrades her.

Says, "She wasn't
doing well in school."

The opposite was true.

Her life dream is within reach.

And then, Susan says,

"Oh, and by the way,
she's a drinker.

♪♪

Oh, and, and, by the
way, she does coke."

It was just one
thing after another

to make her seem

like she's not a good person,
not even worth looking for.

So, Susan is trying to knit
together a better story.

Berman: Now, just tell me if there's
any avenue I haven't covered.

Bagli: She's tossing out ideas,

and Albert keeps
knocking them down.

- Berman: The runaway wife.
- Albert Goldman: Nah, she didn't run away.

Berman: Nah. Or, maybe
she died of an overdose,

- and he stuffed the body somewhere. But, no, no.
- Goldman: Nah, nah.

Bagli: But, eventually,

she hits on one that he likes.

Berman: Let me just ask
you one other thing,

'cause you've lived
here a long time.

She had diamond
stud earrings on,

you know, that he'd given her.

And he always was telling
her, "Don't wear them."

- So, she looks wealthy.
- Goldman: You think that's literally true,

- that she had diamond earrings?
- Berman: Oh yeah!

Goldman: Oh, well, man, there's
your answer right there.

Berman: Really?

Goldman: Yes.

Berman: Right? And
she was beautiful.

Like, she looks wealthy 'cause
she's so pretty, you know?

Goldman: It's a
simple, like, grab...

- Berman: Grab, k*ll.
- Goldman: Rob,

r*pe, k*ll, dump.

Berman: I think you're right.

Yeah, it is conceivable

that she was snatched
in broad daylight

'cause she had diamond earrings
on and was gorgeous, right?

Right?

Yeah, she had diamond
stud earrings on,

- and she was snatched.
- Goldman: Yeah.

Berman: And we'll never
find anyone who saw it.

- Goldman: Eh, somebody saw it.
- Berman: But nobody'll ever...

I mean, it could happen, right?

♪♪

Bagli: So the stage
is set by Susan.

Kathie was wearing
diamonds and disappeared.

Now, Susan can take this
narrative to the press

and divert their
attention away from Bob.

The tabloids played it big.

It really put the
story out there.

Jarecki: Was she wearing
diamond earrings?

No.

The diamond earrings
were later found

in Bob and Kathie's
apartment on Riverside Drive.

[shutter snaps]

[Berman speaking]

Bagli: "I'm saving my
tears 'til it's official."

That's the most chilling moment

in the entire conversation

because she knows
that Kathie's dead.

DePaulo: Susan was determined
to put a story out there

that would take the
attention off Bob.

And once she did that...

[Goldman speaking]

[Berman speaking]

DePaulo: Her job was done.

[echoing click]

This changed my perception

of something I'd been
working on for 17 years.

It made me realize

she was an enthusiastic partner.

That's what turned her on was
the idea that he needed her,

and she could come
up with the stuff.

She could be vital to him.

- [shutter snaps]
- And she can be like

the saintly wife,
taking care of business.

"Don't you worry about
it. I'll take care of it."

And also, it's more
intimate with him

than anybody else
will be with him.

[shutter snaps] - They are
improvising this lie together.

It's a life-and-death situation.

They're tied to each other
like they have children.

[shutter snaps] - This
ties them together forever.

Karr-Morse: She was
a full-on accomplice.

From a person I love so much,

it's so awful.

I mean, it's so awful.

Jarecki: This recording
made it much harder for me

to see Susan as a true victim.

DePaulo: Yeah.

Jarecki: Terrible when
somebody gets m*rder*d,

but this person

was deeply involved
in this crime.

Oh, Susan.

[shutter snaps,
film camera winding]

[birds chirping]

♪♪

Lewin: The Goldman
tape would counter

much of what the defense
is putting forward.

You hear Susan's voice...

Berman [on phone]: She's dead,
right? I'm saving my tears

'til it's official,
but you think so?

Lewin: And the emotional
response is, "Wow,

"this woman is
really manipulative.

She is really tied into it."

Goldman: Jesus,
that's definitely it.

Berman: Yeah, you got the story.

Lewin: But jurors
are human beings.

And if they truly
dislike your victim,

it just makes it harder.

So, I decided not
to use the recording

because I don't want the jury

to dislike Susan so much
that they basically say,

"You know what?

We don't care that
she got m*rder*d."

[birds chirping]

But ultimately,

I felt like I had
something even stronger.

Newscaster: Prosecutors
dropped a bombshell

that they have a secret witness

who can provide
valuable information

about the m*rder of
Durst's close friend

Susan Berman 16 years ago.

- Lewin: Your Honor, if I just...
- DeGuerin: Time out. Wait a minute. Hold on.

[overlapping arguing]

newscaster: Prosecutors clashed
with Durst's defense team

when they implied they
need to get that testimony

on the record as
soon as possible

because the witness fears
being k*lled by Durst.

Witnesses in this case,

realistically, understandably,

are concerned
about their safety.

Chesnoff: Bob was in
complete isolation.

His phone calls were monitored.

He was sickly and old.

And the idea that somehow he was
a danger to anybody but himself

at this point in time,
to me, seemed absurd.

- [beep]
- Charatan: Hi.

This is the first time

they've put me in
chains for a visit.

- Sorry.
- Discussion was about

them having secret witnesses

whose identity has
to remain secret

- because I'm a threat.
- I know.

Seems to me that I'm not a
threat because I'm in jail.

I know. I think the
whole thing is ludicrous.

Windham: In some cases,

there are witnesses whose lives

have, in fact, been threatened.

Whatever it takes for a witness
to feel more comfortable,

that's something that
I'm going to consider.

Lewin: Let me be clear.

That man kills witnesses.
That's what he does.

Mr. Durst, when
pushed into a corner,

he murders people.

- [shutter snaps]
- [curious music playing]

Nick Chavin: You have
two best friends.

One of them kills the other.

It's Cain and Abel.
It's biblical.

- [rattling]
- [sighs]

newscaster: The
witness is Nick Chavin.

[shutter snaps] - He was a very
good friend of Robert Durst

and a very good friend
of Susan Berman.

[distant roaring]

Nick Chavin: We're sitting in
the plane, and the captain said,

"Everyone please
remain in your seats.

There will be a few
people getting off here."

[sirens wail] - Security
guards say, "Okay, follow us,"

and everyone pretty much thought

that we were the criminals.

[laughs] But walking
down that aisle

and having so many
people gawk at you,

it's a, it's, it's a kick.
It's bigger than performing.

- [siren wailing]
- [mysterious music playing]

newscaster: Robert Durst used
to be his very best friend,

but today he showed up to court

with two security
guards at his side,

suggesting he now
fears for his safety.

They took us right
to John Lewin.

He said, "The questions
are gonna be really easy.

"Don't rehearse.

Just let it go."

And that was good advice.

[door creaks]

One of the things I've
always wanted in life

was to have that much
exposure to the public.

I was made for those moments.

I mean, Jesus, I'd like to say

the seriousness of the situation

dampened all my
excitement. It didn't.

[Durst speaking]

[Susie Giordano speaking]

Nick Chavin: What
was surreal for me

was seeing Bob.

I needed to not look at him

so that my testimony was pure me

and what I wanted to say.

Lewin: Sometime late in 2014,

did you have a dinner
with Robert Durst

at Barawine Restaurant?

Yes.

- [car honking]
- [tense music playing]

Lewin: Did you and
Mr. Durst have discussion

about what the purpose was
going to be for this dinner?

Nick Chavin: Yes.

Lewin: Can you describe
that discussion?

Nick Chavin: He said he wanted to
talk to me about Kathie and Susan.

[opens door]

The dinner concluded...

[inaudible conversation]

and it was then that I...
as we got up to leave,

I realized that we
hadn't discussed

the two things that he had
mentioned, Kathie and Susan.

I felt kinda weird that...
I didn't bring it up.

- [tense music continues]
- [street noise]

We walked out the door.

[sniffles] This is hard.
We walked out the door

and on the sidewalk, I said,

"You wanted to
talk about Susan?"

And Bob said,

"I had to.

It was her or me.
I had no choice."

And then, he turned
to walk away,

and I said, "You wanted
to talk about Kathie."

And he just kept walking away.

Nothing more was said.

Bagli: "It was her or me.

I had no choice."

This was devastating testimony.

Nick Chavin's big contribution

was his alleged
conversation with Bob,

which was very gratuitous.

I don't think it's
unfair to suggest

that his 10 minute of
fame may have influenced

what he ultimately testified to.

It was really unverifiable.

[Lewin speaking]

[Windham speaking]

[DeGuerin speaking]

[sniffles]

[Nick Chavin speaking]

[DeGuerin speaking]

DeGuerin: This ridiculous
claim that Bob confessed to him

on the streets of New York,
near a busy restaurant, um...

You can follow that through

the dozens of conversations

between Lewin and Chavin.

There was inconsistencies

or really contradictions,
that was all recorded.

"And we left. We walked outside.

"And I... and I looked.

"He was gonna go one way.

"And I was gonna go the other.

And I looked at him.
And I said, 'Bob...'"

Nick Chavin [on tape]:

Chavin kinda changed
his tune, didn't he?

It's interesting
cross-examining people

who have given
statements in the past,

so you have a blueprint.

'Cause nine outta ten times,

they don't say the same thing
twice or the third time.

And DeGuerin really
dug in on Nick Chavin.

[DeGuerin speaking]

Lewin [on tape]: You and
Bob ended up going out to a

[clears throat] to dinner.

And, when it was over

you were pressing him.

And, finally, he turned
to you and he said,

"It was either Susan or me."

Nick Chavin: Yeah. No,
that didn't happen.

I don't know what
else to tell you.

You don't want me
to lie, do you?

Lewin: No. No, Nick...

DeGuerin: I think that getting
Chavin to say what he said

was crucial to Lewin's case.

He knew what he wanted to get
from those witnesses, and,

so he suggested
those, those answers.

[DeGuerin speaking]

Chesnoff: Listening
to Nick's testimony,

I don't think it
had any real impact.

Just consider the source.

[soft music playing]

I would prefer that
justice be done

because of Susan Berman.

[inaudible]

I sometimes have
dreams about her now.

Berman: I think
the goal of life,

this blessed gift that
we all struggle with,

is to somehow, as we get older

and we mature, make more
and more good choices.

♪♪

Choices that are good for us.

Choices that are
good for our family.

Choices that are
good for humanity.

[doorbell rings]

[muffled dog barking]

[doorbell rings]

Sometimes, I think life
forces you into choices

and it's a tragic thing

because that past could
erase your present.

- [dog barking]
- [paws clicking]

I don't know. I'm
not a philosopher.

But it's something
I've thought about.

[echoing dog barking]

[pen clicking]

[crinkling]

[barking fades out]

♪♪

[slow whistling]

[music fades out]