02x06 - It Takes a Village

[bunniefuu]

[breeze blowing]

[soft ominous music playing]

newscaster: More than 50
days of trial. We covered it.

We watched it. We absorbed it.

Today, we'll cover the
final moment in the saga,

the sentencing of the defendant,

convicted m*rder*r Robert Durst.

Hon. Mark Windham: Please be
seated, everyone. Good morning.

Calling the case People
versus Robert Durst.

Mr. Durst is present

and represented by Mr. DeGuerin,

Mr. Chesnoff.

The ripple effects on a
homicide are terrible.

And so,

for the society to
heal, to recover,

there must be some process

of assigning accountability.

Mr. Durst confessed to the crime

in the special circumstance of
witness k*lling to Nick Chavin.

Mr. Durst's statement
that only the k*ller

could've written
the Cadaver Note,

which, obviously, is true,

and then his admission
that he wrote that note

proves his guilt beyond a
reasonable doubt a second way.

His bathroom confession
to three killings

on a nationwide broadcast

is a confession he cannot
and did not explain.

That proves his guilt in
a third, independent way.

It's the judgment and sentence
of this court, Mr. Durst,

that you be imprisoned
in the state prison

for the term prescribed by law.

That is, life in prison

without the
possibility of parole.

♪♪

Charles Bagli: By the time
Bob's sentencing took place,

whatever magic he
used to be able to...

display is gone.

And after the hearing,

Bob is kind of on his own.

His friends knew they had
already put themselves

in some jeopardy.

And so,

he was all on his
lonesome at that point.

Operator [on phone]: Hello.
This is a prepaid call from...

Robert Durst [on phone]: Bob!

- Hello?
- Voicemail: At the tone,

please record your message.

When you are finished recording,

- you may hang up or press one for more options.
- Durst: Hello?

[beep]

[beep]

[insects chirping]

- [beep]
- Debbie?

Debbie?

Hello?!

["Survivor" by Nathaniel Rateliff
& The Night Sweats playing]

♪ Well, you just
think that I'm ♪

♪ Some great survivor ♪

[static]

♪ And you just build upon ♪

♪ The light to carry you ♪

[shutter snapping]

♪ Well, I don't
even talk that way ♪

♪ See, I wanted you to stay ♪

♪ And show you the
world's a better place ♪

[scuttling]

♪ And as we crawl
to find our way ♪

♪ We even take the shape
of something else ♪

[shutter snaps]

- ♪ You think that I'm just ♪
- [g*nsh*t]

♪ Some great survivor ♪

♪ You think that I'm just ♪

[shutters snapping]

♪ Some great survivor ♪

♪ I'm afraid that the
weight of the world ♪

♪ Is catching up with you ♪

♪♪

[scuttling]

[wind blowing]

- [ominous music playing]
- [clock ticking]

[wind blowing]

[car horns honking]

It feels very wrong to get to
the end of this and be like,

"Bob Durst, lone wolf,
did terrible things,

and then got in trouble for it."

'Cause that's not
really what happened.

What really happened was

Bob Durst did some
terrible things

and a whole lot of
other people helped him

a dozen different
ways to avoid trouble.

That includes his friends,

it includes his family,

and the one person in his life

who's not been in the
spotlight, his wife Debrah.

♪♪

Debbie certainly had
enough information

to understand that Bob

had likely engaged

in very bad conduct.

♪♪

Andrew Jarecki: We were talking
about other voices in your ear.

Obviously, one of the
loudest voices is Bob's wife.

- Um...
- I'm not gonna talk about her.

- Jarecki: You don't want to...
- I'm not gonna talk about her.

That was clear when
we agreed to this.

I am not gonna talk about her.

[shutter snaps]

Can you imagine if Debrah
Lee could have testified?

- Wouldn't you...
- [Jarecki speaking]

Correct. And had a good
excuse not to, as his wife.

But wouldn't you love
to see her on the stand?

[ring tone]

Jarecki: Hey, it's Jarecki.

Ah...

Alright, John. Thanks
for letting me know. Bye.

Bob Durst... is deceased.

- [phone clatters]
- Lisa DePaulo: Holy sh*t!

[sighs] I thought
he'd outlive us all.

I really did. Wow.

- What's the cause?
- We don't know.

Newscaster 1: This news
from the West Coast.

Notorious real estate heir
Robert Durst has died.

Newscaster 2: Authorities say
he went into cardiac arrest

while serving a life sentence.

Newscaster 3: For
decades, many believed

he used his fortune
to dodge justice.

Bagli: I really thought there
was kind of an irony to it.

That, once again,

even in his death, Bob
was escaping justice.

Newscaster: And in yet another
stunning twist to this case,

this recent conviction
could be vacated

because he died
before his appeal.

♪♪

John Lewin: When
Bob Durst died,

under the rules in California,

his conviction was abated,

meaning it disappears,

because it did not go
through one round of appeal.

♪♪

- [breeze blowing]
- [thunder rumbling]

Jim McCormack: When Bob died,

his conviction was basically
written off the books,

which, to me, is ludicrous.

I mean, he was convicted.
He had 12 people listen to,

you know, many, many hours
of testimony and witnesses.

[wind chimes ringing]

I want him to be
held accountable.

Liz McCormack: Obviously,
Bob Durst died in prison.

And I think it was important
for my dad, of course,

to see some accountability
come through.

And so, it became more
and more of a mission

to bring at least
some, some closure

or some justice to his family,

and to Kathie specifically.

[somber music playing]

Jim McCormack: And so,
the next thing I did,

I got a hold of our lawyers
and said, "Okay, now what?"

- [quiet reporter chatter]
- [shutters snapping]

Good afternoon, everybody.
Thank you so much for coming.

You all could imagine
how difficult it has been

for the last 40 years
to fight to get justice

for Kathleen and for the family.

[shutter snaps]

newscaster: Kathie Durst's
brother, Jim McCormack,

is leading his family's
fight for justice.

Jim McCormack: My family and
I have serious questions,

and we deserve answers.

♪♪

The only power they have at
this point is a civil suit.

And damn straight, they should.

You know what?
These poor people,

they have been through hell!

Liz McCormack: I
know, for my dad,

working now with these lawyers,

he's doing the things that
he wished maybe he had done

when we were all younger.

- [soft chatter]
- [shutters snapping]

Jarecki: So, who
is your opponent

in the wrongful death
case if Bob is dead?

So, it's, it's Bob's estate.

♪♪

[Jarecki speaking]

Matthew Capozzoli: Bob
Durst's wife, Debbie Charatan.

We do intend to depose
Debrah Charatan.

The deposition

is an opportunity

to look a potential
witness in the eye

and find out what
that person knows.

[music slows down, stops]

speaker: Okay, could you
raise your right hand, please?

Do you solemnly
swear the testimony

you're about to give is
the truth, the whole truth,

- and nothing but the truth?
- Yes.

Speaker: Thank you very much.

Capozzoli: Good
morning, Ms. Charatan.

Robert Durst has been accused
of at least three murders.

What does it say about you
that you stayed with him

and supported him
through all that?

Well...

Robert and I had
a lot of history.

And I had rough
times in my life,

and he was there for me.

And when he had rough
times, I was there for him.

It says that I'm a loyal person.

[quiet music playing]

Capozzoli: Do you recall ever
speaking with Robert Durst

about the possibility
that he would be sued

for wrongful death?

Not really, no.

[Durst speaking on tape]

[Debrah Lee Charatan
speaking on tape]

Capozzoli: Do you recall
speaking with Robert Durst

about the possibility he'd be
sued by the McCormack family?

No, because there
were no lawsuits.

It was just not...

No.

[Durst speaking on tape]

[Charatan speaking on tape]

Capozzoli: In prior testimony,

you said you first met
Robert Durst in 1987.

- Was that statement accurate?
- I believe so.

Capozzoli: How did
you meet Robert Durst?

At a charity event.

- [soft piano music playing]
- [party chatter]

Capozzoli: Would you say that was
a turbulent time in your life?

- Charatan: Yes.
- Capozzoli: Why would you say that?

I was getting divorced.

I was having problems
with my business.

[jaunty music playing]

Bagli: By the time
she met Bob, remember,

she's had this 15
minutes of fame

with her all-female
real estate firm.

[news fanfare playing]

Our spotlight this morning

is on three American
success stories.

First is Debrah Charatan-Berger,
who lives in New York City.

Her line is commercial
real estate.

Charatan-Berger: I believe
that if I help enough people

get what they want,
I'll get what I want.

So I never really
focused on myself,

or the obstacles,
or the difficulties.

I just forged ahead.

♪♪

Jennifer Cherney: She
wanted control, no question.

- And we were naive.
- [muffled chatter]

We didn't know of
the real world.

And she thought she could
take advantage of that.

I just really had the drive
and the motivation to succeed.

I really wanted to succeed. I
really wanted to earn money.

Cherney: And at
a certain point,

she decided that she
didn't need to pay people.

♪♪

Bagli: She was stiffing
one agent after another

for their commission,
their livelihood.

[printer clicking, whirring]

So the lawsuits piled up.

And finally, rather
than paying settlements,

Debrah filed for bankruptcy.

So, her world is

really in turmoil,

and she needs help.

- [ominous music playing]
- [quiet party chatter]

Nick Chavin: Bob and I
were at a charity thing.

Debrah must've
spotted him from afar

and had the whole
thing planned out.

- [soft piano music playing]
- She just came up to us.

"Hi, Nick."

Probably the first time she
was ever friendly to me.

And I introduced them.

I don't know for how long she
had it in mind to marry Bob,

but she had it in mind wanting
to be close to his money.

[shutter snaps]

Bagli: In those early days,

their relationship flourished.

Bob gets her into her
lifelong object of desire,

an apartment on 5th Avenue.

Bob helps her buy a house
out in the Hamptons,

where all the real estate moguls

- spend their summer weekends.
- [seagulls cawing]

Bob is constantly helping Debbie

with what he can provide.

Money.

[ominous music playing]

Someone says to you, "Hey,

"I know this great guy.

"Gonna inherit hundreds
of millions of dollars.

"There's just one little thing.

"His first wife
disappeared, and they think

he might've k*lled her."

I don't know many
women that would say,

"Eh, I don't mind. [laughs]

Fix me up."

Capozzoli: When you were
meeting and dating him,

did you ever talk about what
happened to Kathie Durst?

Once.

♪♪

He came to my apartment

and he brought me articles.

I think he wanted
to tell me about it

before someone else did.

[muffled chatter]

Capozzoli: As you
sit here today,

do you think that Robert
Durst k*lled Kathleen Durst?

No.

Capozzoli: Did he ever tell
you what happened to Kathie?

Charatan: No, that just...
just that she disappeared.

Capozzoli: The truth is that

there was ample evidence

of Durst's guilt in 1982.

But, the influence and wealth

of the Durst family
can't be ignored.

[traffic noise]

They own one of the
largest real estate empires

in New York City.

Jim McCormack: When
Kathie went missing,

contact with the Durst family

was zero. Zero.

I mean, this is
my brother-in-law,

my sister's father-in-law,

and my mother's contemporary.

Seymour should've
picked up a phone

and called Ann
McCormack and said,

"I have the resources and
the influence and blah blah.

What do you need?"
Zero. You know why?

I believe that he knew.

♪♪

He knew what his son had done.

Robert Abrams: In


did not offer to
cooperate with the police

and did nothing to
look for Kathie.

Speaker: Can you raise
your right hand, please?

Do you solemnly swear the
testimony you're about...

Abrams: But this lawsuit
finally gives us the opportunity

to force them to testify

and explain why they
never came forward.

Abrams: Uh, good
morning, Mr. Durst.

It's been 40-plus years
to get to this point

and this is the first time

you're actually
having a conversation

with Kathie's family.
Why did it take 40 years?

I have no idea.

♪♪

Abrams: Mr. Durst,
why don't you tell us

who your siblings
are? Who's the oldest?

- Tom Durst: Robert.
- Abrams: And then?

- Tom Durst: Douglas.
- Abrams: And after Doug...

Tom Durst: Wendy, me... Tom.

Liz McCormack: There's
a lot of talk about

his family and how they...

they ignored what happened
to her and how they...

they had all this power,

and they could've
done something. But,

I also think it's
important to talk about

how they could've done something
before she disappeared,

you know? I mean,

they knew.

Abrams: You were aware that Bob
was a violent person, correct?

I was aware of it...

since I was 4 years old, yes.

- [curious music playing]
- [car rattling]

[kids chattering]

Tom Durst: My first memory
of Bob is him hitting me.

I was sitting in the
hallway on the carpet.

[toy clicking]

He walked by and hit me.

He was trying to k*ll me
from the day I arrived.

Abrams: And I assume
you told your father?

Tom Durst: I doubt it. My
father was like a visiting duke.

I didn't see him very often.
I probably told the governess,

who may well have
told my father.

Capozzoli: Do you recall the
first time you met Kathie?

- Yes.
- Capozzoli: What was your initial impression of her?

Wendy Durst Kreeger:
I liked Kathie.

We were hopeful that

she could help turn him
around. [weak laugh]

[somber music playing]

Jim McCormack: Kathie had
entered a promising life

that very quickly
degraded into a terrible,

terrible, a*usive relationship.

Tom Durst: I was at
a cousin's wedding.

She said, "He hit me,"
and then walked away.

Abrams: Did you
confront Bob about that?

- Tom Durst: Me? Confront Bob?
- Abrams: Yeah. Yeah.

- Tom Durst: No.
- Abrams: Why not?

Tom Durst: He's a monster. I never
confronted Bob about anything.

- Douglas Durst: I knew that they had fights.
- [muffled slap]

And he was seeing other women.

Abrams: Did you
ever speak to Bob

and ask him why he was
physically abusing his wife?

No.

Lewin: I never expect

a family member to cooperate,

to turn in, to...

provide evidence
involving their son,

their father, their
brother, et cetera.

But this was a
very unusual case.

♪♪

[insects chirping]

What do you prefer? Do
you prefer Mr. Durst? Tom?

- Tom Durst: Tom is good.
- Lewin: Tom is good. Okay.

So, let me ask you, Tom.

Kathie disappears

on Sunday, January 31, 1982.

I know that there was a meeting

the same week that
Kathie disappeared

on February 3rd, which
would've been Wednesday.

Tom Durst: Right. The Durst
Organization met once a month.

My sister called me
from the meeting,

and she's very upset about
Kathie being missing.

Capozzoli: Did you ever
discuss Kathie's disappearance

with your other brothers?

With Tom.

Tom Durst: I
remember her saying,

"Shouldn't we be
putting up posters?

"Shouldn't we be
doing something?

"We're not doing anything!
Kathie's missing,

and we're having a meeting."

Then, she says, "Bob
showed up to the meeting

wearing muddy boots."

♪♪

That really stuck in
her mind. Muddy boots.

Wendy was panicked.

Wendy thought there was
something bad had happened.

Lewin: Meaning she's
associating Bob's muddy boots

- with Kathie's disappearance?
- Tom Durst: Correct.

[quiet footsteps]

Capozzoli: Many people
believe that Robert

disposed of Kathie's body in
the Pine Barrens in New Jersey.

[wind blowing]

Which is like a sandy forest.

And we know Bob was in the area
because of these collect calls

that he made from
the next town over.

[hangs up]

[thunder rumbles]

Abrams: Your brother
Tom testified

there was a meeting in the
Durst Organization offices

where you told him Robert
was in muddy boots.

- Do you recall that?
- No.

Abrams: You don't recall
seeing Robert in muddy boots?

No.

Capozzoli: We have one sibling

saying that a few days
after Kathie disappeared,

Robert was at the
Durst family meeting

dressed in muddy boots

and another sibling saying
that that never happened.

[somber music continues]

Abrams: You're telling me that
a loved one is in trouble,

and you know that there's
a good possibility

they might get m*rder*d,
your testimony today

is you don't know
what you would do?

- Is that your testimony?
- If I was asked that question now,

I would go to the authorities.

Then, I was a lot younger
and stupider and...

Abrams: How old
were you in 1982?

Kreeger: I was 30-something.

Abrams: Uh, why don't
we go off the record,

so she could fix her stuff,
and then we'll come back on?

- You need a couple of minutes?
- I need some Tylenol

because I have a splitting
headache from this.

Abrams: Given the fact that your
brother was a violent person,

did it strike you that maybe
he did something to her?

It struck me as a
possibility, yes.

Abrams: If it struck
you as a possibility,

is there a reason why you
never reached out to the family

and gave your condolences
for what your brother did?

I didn't know what my
brother did, and...

uh, I did not think it
was my place to do that.

Liz McCormack: I
don't understand

the callousness,

the just complete
emotional detachment

from somebody who was
so part of your life.

Capozzoli: Instead of trying
to protect the family business,

had the Durst family
cooperated with police in 1982,

Robert Durst could've
been arrested

for Kathie's m*rder
at that time...

[shutter snaps]

and Susan Berman and Morris
Black would still be alive.

- [clapping]
- [party chatter]

[people cheering]

Kreeger: I just
wanted to say that

it's been interesting,
all of this.

- [laughter]
- Happy birthday.

Thank you very much.

[applause]

Capozzoli: At that time, did you ever
meet Robert's brother Douglas Durst?

Yes.

Speaker: Tell us for the camera how
you got all of the proclamations.

- No. It's secret.
- speaker: Come on, Douglas. [laughs]

Abrams: How'd you feel about Debrah
Charatan at that point in time?

Lawyer: Objection.

You want me to tell you
in front of her attorneys?

- [lawyer laughs]
- [jaunty music playing]

Capozzoli: What was your first
impression of Debrah Charatan?

- I hated her. [laughs]
- [Capozzoli laughs]

[laughter, quiet party chatter]

Charatan: I think that
everybody in the family

thought I was after
him for his money.

I thought it might be...

something of a
business relationship.

♪♪

Capozzoli: And were you
surprised they got married?

- Shocked.
- [glass shatters]

- [beep, snap]
- [flash capacitor whining]

The timing of Robert
Durst's marriage

to Debbie Charatan is
extremely suspicious.

♪♪

Are you aware that in 2000,

the Westchester County
district attorney

reopened its investigation
into the disappearance

- of Kathleen Durst?
- Yes.

He said, "Do you
wanna get married?"

You know, that kind
of thing. You know?

- Capozzoli: And you said yes?
- I said yes.

Capozzoli: Why
did you say yes?

- Because he asked.
- [Capozzoli laughs]

No one else was asking.

Capozzoli: After you get married,
did you have a wedding reception?

- No.
- Capozzoli: Did you and Robert Durst

- spend your wedding night together?
- No.

So they get married on the 11th.

[laughs] And December 12th,

he buys a one-way
ticket to California

to go k*ll Susan Berman.

[plane roaring]

- [muffled g*nsh*t]
- [dull whooshing]

Capozzoli: What was Susan
Berman's personality like?

Hm...

Manic.

Capozzoli: Did you consider
Susan Berman to be your friend?

No.

She just did not like
Susan for whatever reason.

♪♪

Then, after Christmas,

Nick came into my
office. All he said was

Susan had been shot in
the back of the head.

And he couldn't
talk. He just...

He was walking out of the room,

and I said... and I...

instinctively, I
said, "Bob did it."

Terry was quick to recognize

that the only person that
possibly could have k*lled

Susan was Bob.

[tense music playing]

Terry Chavin: And
then I had a choice.

I could either never
call Debrah again,

or I could call her
and see what she says.

I wanted to hear from her.

Jarecki: And you called her?

Terry Chavin: I called her,
and it was just stunning to me.

This is a time when
you're supposed to be

not criticizing the dead person.

She started talking about

how Susan was not loyal to Bob.

It was amazing she would
just launch right into that.

Capozzoli: As you sit
here today, do you believe

that Robert Durst
k*lled Susan Berman?

I respect what the jury said.

♪♪

Capozzoli: But do you personally
believe that he did it?

Well, I respect what
the jury said, so...

There were two
people in his life

who he was close enough to

who could be trouble.

Debrah Lee was one.

Susan was another.

He marries one and
kills the other.

Problem solved.

[music fades out]

[quiet chatter]

Today, we had a call conference

which was called a
discovery conference.

Each side is
supposed to exchange

information and documents.

[cart squeaking]

Capozzoli: It's a
fact-finding exercise.

You also get a sense of what
the defense strategy might be.

Jarecki: And what's been the
essence of their response?

This is a sworn statement

signed by Debrah Charatan.

"I currently estimate the
assets of Bob's estate

"to be under $100,000,

with debts of
approximately $250,000."

That's an interesting
development

because when Bob was
arrested in New Orleans

in 2015,

the police said that he
was worth $100 million.

♪♪

Now, we're fairly certain

that he didn't spend $100
million on his defense,

so what happened?

Abrams: So do you know what
happened to all of his money?

- He spent it.
- Abrams: And how did he spend it?

Think I know? I don't know.

I believe that when
Debrah Charatan says

that Robert Durst's estate

does not have a
lot of money in it,

it's technically true.

But that's only a small
part of the story.

The vast majority of Bob's money

is in a trust.

Abrams: Would you agree with me
that there was more than $100,000

in the trust when Robert died?

- Yes.
- Abrams: Right.

So, therefore, you didn't
include the trust assets

in the assets that were
in his estate, correct?

They don't belong to him.

♪♪

Abrams: The argument
that she's making is that

that money is trust money.

It's not Robert's
personal money,

and it's not part of his estate.

[Durst speaking on phone]

[Charatan speaking on phone]

[seagull cawing]

Capozzoli: When you have
the kind of resources

that Robert Durst had,

you have the ability to pay
attorneys and accountants

to structure your
affairs in such a way

as to limit your
liability, so to speak.

The way I understand it,

and the way the lawyers
explained to me,

the trust is just a
totally separate entity

having nothing to do with Bob.

- Charatan [on tape]: Hi.
- Durst [on tape]: Hi.

There's at least

tens of millions of
dollars in that trust,

and we know that Debbie
used some of that money

to grow her real
estate business.

Bagli: With the
help of Bob's trust,

Debbie goes from broker

to buyer of real estate.

Abrams: If you look at the
buildings that BCB purchased,

Bob's trust had a hand
in over a dozen of them.

She would buy up tenements,

small buildings in
Queens or in Brooklyn,

fix them up,

and then sell them at a profit.

Now, sometimes this meant
screwing with the tenants.

Some tenants in Crown Heights
are rallying for better rights

and against G*ntrification.

They say last year, a new
owner bought the building,

BCB Properties.

And since then, they've
been trying to buy out

their apartments
and push them out.

Bagli: And some of the tenants
said that Debrah ran her buildings

like a slum lord.

Capozzoli: How many
properties would you say

you've bought and sold

since you started BCB
Property Management?

- I have no idea.
- Capozzoli: I'm not gonna hold you to it.

- More than 10?
- No, I... Oh yes.

- Capozzoli: More than 20?
- Yes.

Capozzoli: More than 30?

Perhaps.

We know that Debrah
Charatan went from having

a very small real estate
company to a real estate company

that was doing hundreds
of millions of dollars.

♪♪

Bagli: By this time,
Debbie, his wife,

had a lot of authority

over Bob's finances,

over his life.

Sometimes, maybe more
than he bargained for.

Durst: Let me ask
you something.

So, the lawyers said
the trustees will agree

to pay for the defense.
The question is,

when are the trustees

gonna start paying bills?

Charatan: Well,
the thing is, Bob,

they wanna know, you
know, basically how much

and what the scope of work is.

They're 100% behind you
and your team and...

Okay, I love the fact that
you're behind me 100%.

I'd like them to pay
the f*cking bills.

Charatan: Bob, they have to
know what they're paying for.

Trust me, they will
not let you down.

- Trust me. I promise you that.
- Okay.

-Alright. That's all I wanna hear.
-And I wouldn't let...

And I wouldn't let you down.

Don't you know that?

Durst: So, there's a
whole 'nother viewpoint.

You're perceived as not wanting

to spend money on
my legal defense

because it would decrease
the amount in the trust,

and you would inherit less.

That is how you are perceived.

Charatan: Who
perceives me that way?

Durst: Me.

And I could just change my will

and take you out of it.

Bob, you know what?

I'm done.

I don't need you.
I don't need this.

I don't need any of it. I'm
sorry you feel that way.

- You are entitled to feel as you wish...
- No, I don't feel that way!

- Yes, you do! Yes, you do!
- I said it appeared

- that that's the way it was going.
- No, no, no...

No, you know what?
What you need to do

is stay out of it. What you
need to do is let the trustee,

- let Mike...
- I need to stay out of it?

- This is my life!
- Just listen. Just listen.

I'm gonna hang up the phone now,

and I'm gonna say
goodbye to you.

It was nice knowing you...

-[stammering] -Will you
stop it? It's my turn.

- Let me finish.
- Okay, you go.

♪♪

Um, what I wanna do is I
wanna leave you my assets,

all my assets,
just the way it was

before I was arrested,

- and I wanna leave it like that.
- Okay.

- I think that's a smart thing to do.
- Okay. Okay.

Um...

So, I love you. Bye.

Okay, bye. [laughs]

[hangs up]

[hangs up]

[inaudible]

Capozzoli: This was the definition
of a marriage of convenience.

In fact,

she loved someone else.

[line ringing, beep]

[Durst on phone]

[Steven Holm on phone]

[Holm laughs]

[Charatan on phone]

Capozzoli: Who
was Steven Holm?

Steven Holm was
the man that I...

live with...

for about 15 years.

Capozzoli: You had a romantic relationship
with Steven Holm. Is that right?

That's right.

They went to charity events.
They went to social events.

They were out publicly,
holding themselves out

as being husband and wife,

all while she was still
married to Bob Durst.

Capozzoli: Did money play
a role in your decision

not to divorce Robert Durst
and marry Steven Holm?

I guess so.

Capozzoli: How
would... How so?

Well, Robert's trust...

could... I could only
inherit the trust

if I were married to him.

And so, he preferred to
stay the way we were.

And I asked Steve, and he
said it's fine with him.

And so, we left it.

Bagli: You have
to ask yourself,

what did Bob get out of his
relationship with Debbie?

'Cause Debbie got a lot.

♪♪

And so, I think that
Bob got from Debbie

some emotional support,
unflagging loyalty.

But, over time,

the help becomes

much more substantial,

especially when Bob found
himself in jail again.

[Charatan on phone]

[Durst on phone]

[shutter snaps]

[shutter snaps]

Capozzoli: There were
multiple occasions

when Susan Giordano sent
bills to Debrah Charatan

and Debrah Charatan
paid those bills.

[Charatan on phone]

- [Durst on phone]
- Charatan: You know?

Because if she sent Susie money,

it would look bad. It
would be easy to trace.

But by paying the
bills directly,

it would be harder
to track down.

[Durst on phone]

Capozzoli: By the time
Susie shows up in court,

she's gotten hundreds
of thousands of dollars

from Bob or Debbie.

Speaker: For the record, please
state your first and last name.

Lewin: Ma'am, do you
consider yourself,

as you sit up there today,
to be an unbiased witness?

Giordano: I would...

I am unbiased, yes.
I am totally...

unbiased.

♪♪

Capozzoli: And Susan Giordano
was not the only witness

in Bob's past that
Debbie helped out with.

Lewin: Good afternoon.

Mr. Altman,

do you believe that your
friendship with Mr. Durst

in any way affects
your testimony?

No.

Lewin: In 2003,

how was it that Mr. Durst
ended up giving you

a $40,000 or $50,000 Lexus
to you and your wife?

He wanted to do
something nice for us.

[Charatan on phone]

[Durst on phone]

[beep]

[Durst on phone]

[Charatan on phone]

Bob was very concerned
about Doug Oliver

not coming to his
aid and helping him

and had Debbie call Doug Oliver.

[Durst on phone]

♪♪

d*ck DeGuerin: Now, let's
talk just a little bit

about your knowledge of Kathie.

Did Kathie use cocaine?

[Doug Oliver speaking]

DeGuerin: Did you
ever get calls

from Kathie seeking cocaine?

Oliver: Yes.

All of these people

who got entangled in his web.

♪♪

"Do I protect Bob because
he's so good to me?

"Do I protect Bobby because
I'm just a loyal person?

"Do I protect Bobby
'cause I have an...

inch of doubt that maybe
he didn't do this?"

♪♪

You have to say, "What
price is my soul?"

Right? "What
price is my soul?"

- [breeze blowing]
- [birds chirping]

Jarecki: After everything
you've done for Bob,

how much you've
been there for him,

do you blame yourself
for anything?

You know, I-I've done...

Not that I expected
anything in return,

but anything he's
ever asked, I did.

I helped.

[soft music playing]

And even now, even today,

after all this hassle
you've been put through

and after watching him confess

and after watching the
jury convict him...

No, and I-I do.
And I say that...

It's really hard to realize
that all that evidence, yes.

And it does point
to that. And...

What's stopping you from saying,

"I guess he m*rder*d
Susan Berman"?

What...

I don't know! I don't know.

But do I know in my heart? Yes.

But to hear yourself say
it also makes it like,

"Wow, that could
be really real."

You know? Even
though you know it.

DePaulo: He kinda
zeroed in on people

who would be easily manipulated.

And they were. And
they kind of...

You know, I mean, look at
with the juror in Texas!

[Jarecki speaking]

DePaulo: Yeah, the one who

Bobby gave a job to afterwards.

Like, that was nuts.

[Jarecki and Chris
Lovell on phone]

[phone hangs up]

Hello?

♪♪

Abrams: Did you ever help your
wife clean Bob's apartment?

- No.
- Abrams: Were you ever present

when she was cleaning
the apartment?

No.

[inaudible]

Abrams: Isn't it true
while Durst was on the run,

he asked you to go
to the apartment

and get some stuff for him?

Abrams: Isn't it true
that you were there

to help Durst clean
out his apartment?

Abrams: Do you remember
getting any lump sum of money

from Robert Durst?

He sent me a check for $200,000

after he was arrested
in New Orleans.

Abrams: After he was arrested.
And why did he do that?

I have no clue.

Abrams: Isn't it true
that Bob gave you $200,000

so you wouldn't talk
to the authorities?

Abrams: Okay. Now, what'd
you do with that money?

- I put it in the bank.
- Abrams: Mm-hmm.

You see...

varying degrees of...

morals. Ethics.

Lewin: You started to believe

that Bob Durst

was involved in his wife's
disappearance and death.

- Is that correct?
- That's correct.

Lewin: And did you come
forward at that point in time?

- No, I didn't.
- Lewin: Can you tell me why?

It didn't seem that it
was my place to do that,

and I-I-I never really
thought about it except...

I really don't have
an answer for that.

- [insects chirping]
- [soft music playing]

[film crew chatter]

Jarecki: Okay, I wanna
talk a little bit about

what was going on in your
mind all these years.

I don't know what I felt.

Jarecki: I mean, look. You
didn't create this situation.

I know it seems like
it, but I know...

I submitted to the situation.

Though I didn't create it,

but, boy, it... I
sure feel complicit.

I couldn't have stopped
what he was doing.

Maybe I could've.

[yawn] I'm nervously
yawning. I don't know why.

- Jarecki: You're what?
- Nervously yawning.

- Jarecki: This is, like, you know, emotional territory.
- I guess it is.

I always thought I was not
susceptible to emotions.

It's not pleasant.

♪♪

The jokes have
stopped. [laughs]

- Jarecki: Do you feel guilty?
- Yeah.

- Jarecki: For what?
- I don't know.

[laughs]

I... For having held
all this in, maybe.

Feeling guilty for
never telling anyone.

Jarecki: You know, are you...

Are we guilty because
we commit a crime,

or are we guilty because we help
somebody else cover up a crime

- by omission or by ignoring it?
- Both. Both.

Jarecki: So you feel
somewhat guilty.

[sniffling]

I'm not responding to
these questions well.

I'm dizzy.

[sniffling]

[ominous music playing]

DePaulo: These people have
really gone through hell.

Even if they caused
some of it themselves.

The only pure people in
this are the victims.

The McCormacks.

Abrams: And here we
are, advocating for,

you know, Kathie's family and...

Bagli: The McCormack
family civil case

is inching along.

Who knows what might come
out of those depositions

and whether that becomes
ammunition for their civil suit.

♪♪

My impression from
afar is there were

some settlement discussions,

and they're no longer live.

I'm not sure that Debrah
will ever settle this case

because for Debrah, it's
all about the money,

and she doesn't
wanna part with it.

[quiet family chatter]

DePaulo: I hope the
McCormacks get something

and I hope they don't have
to fight for it so much.

Like this exercise now,

trying to find out
where his money is?

[scoffs] That's gonna
take time and money.

- [kids chattering]
- Jim McCormack: Okay.

Did you make a wish?

Liz McCormack: I just
want my dad to feel

like he did all he could.

♪♪

Jim McCormack: All the years
that we've had to endure,

you finally have to,
you know, you accept it.

You can't unring the bell.

And so, Kathie's
not coming back,

but her memory will
always be with me.

♪♪

Liz McCormack: I care about my
parents. I care about my family.

I don't care about
Bob Durst anymore.

It's backwards!

- Backwards? Okay. [laughs]
- [indistinct chatter]

Liz McCormack: We're
a close family.

That feels like
winning, you know?

[muffled chatter]

DePaulo: Now, you can say to
yourself, "Debrah's a total winner,"

if it's true

that she cares about
nothing more than money.

Win, win, win.

I don't see any
teary-eyed widow. Do you?

[water lapping]

[soft music playing]

[seagulls cawing]

Capozzoli: When you were
dating Robert Durst,

you knew that his first
wife had disappeared.

But you stayed with him, right?

Yes, but at that time,
there was never a question

that he had any
involvement in it.

Capozzoli: After the
Westchester district attorney

reopened the case into
Kathie's disappearance,

you stayed by
Robert's side, right?

Yes.

[soft rumbling]

Capozzoli: After you found
out that Susan Berman,

who was Bob's close friend,
had been shot in the head,

- you stayed by Robert's side, right?
- Yes.

[birds chirping]

Capozzoli: After he went on
the run and you found out

he dismembered his
elderly neighbor,

you still stayed
by his side, right?

Yes.

[quiet footsteps]

Capozzoli: Was there any crime
that Bob could've committed

that would've offended you
enough to make you leave him?

I...

I don't know.

- [soft music continues]
- [waves washing ashore]

♪♪

Capozzoli: Was it worth it?

I think it was.

["I Put A Spell On You [feat.
Joss Stone]" by Jeff Beck playing]

♪ I put a spell on you ♪

♪ Because you're mine ♪

♪ You better stop
the things you do ♪

♪ I say watch out ♪

♪ I ain't lyin' ♪

♪ Ooh ♪

♪ I can't stand it ♪

♪ 'Cause you're
running around ♪

♪ I can't stand it ♪

♪ 'Cause you're putting
me down, so I... ♪

♪ I put a spell on you ♪

♪ Ooh ♪

♪ Because you're mine ♪

♪ Oh, you're mine! ♪

♪ Yeah ♪

♪ You better stop the
things you're doing ♪

♪ I said watch out ♪

♪ I ain't lyin' ♪

♪ Oh, I ain't lyin' ♪

♪ 'Cause, baby, I love you ♪

♪ Can't you see
that I love you? ♪

♪ I love you, I love you ♪

♪ Even if you
don't want me to ♪

♪ 'Cause I put a,
just put a little ♪

♪ I put a spell on you ♪

♪ Yes, I did ♪

♪ Because you're mine ♪

♪ You're mine! ♪

♪ So I, so I, I, I
put a spell on you ♪

♪ Because you're mine ♪

♪ Hey yeah! ♪

♪ You're mine, yeah! ♪

♪ Because you're... ♪

♪ Mine... ♪

[song fades out]