Chasing Chasing Amy (2023)

[bunniefuu]

(DOG PANTING)

(BEEP)

(SWITCH CLICKS)

(DOG PANTING, PROJECTOR HUMMING)

JAY:

So why the long face, Horse?

(HOLDEN SIGHS)

HOLDEN:

I'm just having

a little girl trouble.

b*tch pressing charges?

JAY:

I get that a lot.

NARRATOR:

Holden McNeil was set

in his ways.

The way he worked,

the way he lived,

and the way he thought

love should be.

But then she showed up.

Miramax Films presents a comedy

that tells it like it feels.

She's been around

and seen things

we've only read about

in books.

-What'd you do last night?

-Got lucky.

NARRATOR:

"Chasing Amy."

And now, at last, we come

to what at least I think

is the only good movie

on this week's show.

It's called "Chasing Amy,"

and it was written

and directed by Kevin Smith,

who made a name for himself

a few years ago

with a very low budget comedy

named "Clerks."

Now he's back

with "Chasing Amy,"

which is a terrific film--

well written, well acted--

about a love affair

that forces a comic book artist

to question all of his ideas

about himself.

RODGERS:

Do you understand

why I love this movie so much?

No.

(LAUGHS)

Give us a quick, you know,

thumbnail sketch of the plot.

It's about a guy who falls

in love with a l*sbian.

I love you.

Finds out she's had

heterosexual relationships

and can't deal with that.

I want us to be something

that we can't be.

And what's that?

A normal couple.

In the late '90s,

it was still an occasion

to have a really big

q*eer film come out.

And this was big.

Ultimately, it made $12 million

in the box office.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

There was Hollywood, and then

there's independent film.

And when an independent film

broke through,

everybody noticed.

It's extremely personalized,

extremely good.

I've never really seen

a romantic comedy

like it ever in my life.

It's a well-crafted film

that came out

in that great '90s era

of indie filmmaking.

Kevin Smith definitely

was one of the young kings

of independent film.

"'Chasing Amy' is obviously

a personal film for Smith--

a chance to work through his

masculinity issues on screen."

I do know that he's talked about

it being based on a relationship

that he had at one time.

JAY LENO:

You got this

Golden Globe nomination.

-Are you excited?

-I am. I'm very excited.

If I wrote about real life,

"Chasing Amy" would be all about

the fact that

I couldn't stand that

my girlfriend at the time

had went to Bali

when she was younger

and I didn't.

I think he was being true

to himself

and being as true as he could

to the the subject matter.

It directly addressed issues

of intersectionality,

sociopolitical issues,

and really looked

at identity politics

in a way that most films hadn't.

It's oh-so acceptable

to be a g*y girl nowadays.

People think it's cute.

RODGERS:

Do you find the film

to be authentic

to the LGBTQ community?

No, I find it to be authentic

to the straight white dude

who happens to fall

for a q*eer woman community.

(LAUGHS)

TURNER:

This is a movie about

a woman who is a l*sbian

and decides to be with a man.

I'm like, "You know, that's, uh,

gonna be controversial."

There are some people

that inevitably are going to see

a l*sbian no longer

being a l*sbian

by meeting "the right man"

and rejecting that entirely.

Set aside the notion

that any l*sbian

can be magically turned straight

if the right guy comes along.

What's extra offensive

in hindsight

is the idea that that guy

would be Ben Affleck.

When I first saw the movie,

like,

I thought it was

kind of dumb but harmless.

That would have been excellent

for the poster tagline--

Dumb but Harmless.

There were some people

in the community

who did not appreciate

the ambiguity, the subtlety.

There were a lot of

question marks in that film.

I mean, it's not rocket science.

A straight man tells

a l*sbian story,

and now everyone's

paying attention.

RODGERS:

I hear the word problematic

with "Chasing Amy" a lot.

Is it bad that

it's problematic?

Is it okay that

it's kind of divisive?

Did you see that?

Your d*ke-courting a*s

just got me scored on.

Sometimes something that's

problematic can still mean

a lot in your development.

It was, I think, a brave film

at the time

to portray somebody who's...

fluid.

I know that

there's a lot of controversy

about these older g*y films,

but at the same time,

like, it meant something

to you as a filmmaker

and, like, that is, like,

an undeniable thing.

I do have more respect for

this film than I thought I did,

less because of how

it's put together

and more for what

it was able to do

for people like you.

I do have a question--

why do you want

to make this movie?

(TYPING)

(MOUSE CLICKS)

When I was 12,

I exclusively wanted

to watch Ben Affleck movies.

It's an incredibly specific

thing for a child to demand.

But Ben Affleck was the star

of the 2003 superhero film

"Daredevil."

Naturally,

I was in love with him.

One day, while raiding

my family's movie collection,

I came across an unfamiliar box

with Mr. Affleck's face on it.

The title read "Chasing Amy."

"Chasing Amy" had everything

that I wanted.

The characters were

comic book writers.

They spoke

in romantic monologues

about the kind of love that

only seemed to exist in movies.

And there were openly

q*eer people,

and I didn't realize what

a big deal that would be for me.

Around this time,

I entered junior high school.

Young me did not have it

particularly easy.

While I was lucky

to have a few people

that I could call friends,

I often felt isolated,

but wasn't really sure why.

In one violent incident

in the seventh grade,

a group of boys surrounded me

as I waited for my mom

to pick me up after school.

I regarded these kids

as my friends.

So imagine my shock

when they started pushing me,

threatening me and hurling words

like "d*ke," "q*eer,"

and "f*gg*t" at me.

I had never heard the word

"d*ke" before in my life.

This wasn't the last time

I'd encounter h*m*

as an adolescent,

but it was the first time

I realized just how

I was being othered.

See, it sucks when everyone else

knows you're q*eer

before you do,

because then you don't

have anything

to protect yourself with.

These young men weaponized my

perceived sexuality against me.

Back then, there were

virtually no consequences

for h*m* bullying

in Kansas.

But I did have this one movie.

I had a movie where the g*y and

l*sbian characters were good.

They were intelligent

and funny and out.

They were able to live

as their authentic selves.

And you know what?

The spirit of "Chasing Amy"

kept me alive for years to come,

despite the suicidal thoughts

that began to permeate

from the trauma

I was continuously

experiencing at school.

No matter what

I was dealing with,

I had this one movie

to bring me solace.

I once kept this movie

in my DVD player for a month.

I would watch it at least once

a day every day for 30 days.

(LAUGHTER)

Now, to be fair,

I didn't know that

there were other g*y movies.

(LAUGHTER)

Nowadays, I'm a filmmaker,

and because I can't seem

to shake this topic,

I'm now directing a project

about the legacy of

"Chasing Amy" as an LGBTQ film.

It's by far the most dramatic

way of saying "thank you"

I could possibly think of.

Thank you.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

RODGERS:

The whole store, like,

looks the same.

It feels like I'm stepping into,

like, a time capsule

-in the best way.

-Yeah.

You know,

all the racks are the same.

I don't think the T-shirts

or the books were over there.

No.

And over here was cassingles,

which kind of dates it

pretty badly, but, uh...

But the exterior,

the carpet.

Oh, yeah.

It really feels like

I watched the movie and then

just, like, walked over here.

Maybe what's really

troubling you

is that your fragile fantasy

might not be true.

You remember that,

Never will forget this,

never

I want to get the rights

to that song

and just, like, do a montage

of this whole day.

Never will forget this, I

Never will, never will,

never will forget this

Never will forget this, I

Never will, never will,

never will forget this

Never will forget this, I

Never will, never will,

never will forget this

Hey. Hey!

Never will forget this, I

Never will, never will,

never will forget this

Wow.

I'm a little nervous.

I didn't know what I expected.

I did not expect all this.

This is cool.

-Ta da da!

-Oh, my.

Oh, my God.

That's the original piece

right up there.

Did they ever make, like,

a full "Chasing Amy" comic?

Does that exist somewhere?

-No.

-Okay.

Just the last page

and the cover.

Right.

RODGERS:

I feel like I know

as much about "Chasing Amy"

without knowing Kevin

or actually physically

-being present, and so.

-Gotcha.

Everybody else's question

in my life is, like,

why are you doing this?

It's to pay tribute

to this movie,

but also to see why do

LGBTQ people not like this movie

and, like, what makes

good representation.

It's an honest movie,

if nothing else.

-Yes.

-It's shown from--

from Kevin's point of view.

Seeing that movie,

like, I was like,

"Oh, this is an option."

I am g*y or I am straight,

basically, right?

Yeah. You had one

of two options.

Yeah.

Like, and now, more people are

coming out today more than ever,

but they're coming out

as, like, bisexual/pansexual.

You know, there's been

a total shift in the mindset.

And "Chasing Amy" helped me,

like,

figure out that,

"Oh, that's me."

A lot of people love

"Chasing Amy" just for that,

that it was so honest

and so raw.

Yeah.

-Do you like the movie?

-Love it.

I love all of Kevin's movies,

even the ones

that nobody else likes.

(BIRDS CHIRPING)

Holy sh*t.

I don't even.

What do you even push?

-Uh... I don't know.

-BRAD: Knock, I suppose.

All right.

-Oh, wow. Hi. Hi.

-Hi. I'm Emily.

Hey, nice to meet you.

This is Brad.

Wow.

Holy sh*t!

(DOOR CLOSES)

This is bonkers.

Hello? Oh, my God.

(LAUGHS, CLAPS)

Oh, my God.

How are you?

So good. Welcome to the house

that Amy built in many ways.

This is amazing.

She friendly? He friendly?

SMITH:

She's very.

She's just crippled as hell.

(DOG BARKING)

That's from

"Chasing Amy."

SMITH:

Chasing Amy

was f*cking pivotal

because it changed me

as a filmmaker,

it changed me

as a professional,

it changed me as a human being

and stuff.

It is kind of the movie

without which nothing else

f*cking happens.

I'm just so f*cking happy

you made that movie.

I mean, it's--

You and me both.

-I mean, I can't--

-(LAUGHS)

I don't want to cry

because I'm an ugly crier.

But-- (LAUGHS)

You and me both.

(LAUGHTER)

We're both, uh--

I know you cry pretty easily

from the Internet.

All the time.

Oh, my God.

I love that you're a dude

that, like,

feels his feelings.

That dude wouldn't exist

were it not

for "Chasing Amy."

Like...

"This dude wouldn't exist

if not for 'Chasing Amy.'"

(LAUGHS)

That's funny.

(WHOOSH)

(PLANE ENGINE ROARING)

(INDISTINCT CONVERSATIONS)

Where is she at?

She says she's coming out.

Where are you?

Anyway, I'm more excited.

I'm not nervous.

And I know I didn't forget

how to kiss, but...

()

I got you these flowers.

(INDISTINCT CONVERSATION)

WOMAN 1:

To your right, sorry.

To your right.

That is just too--

that's too far over.

That's too far.

That's still too far.

It's off center.

It looks weird.

Oh, my God. Filmmakers.

-Is that fine?

-That should be okay.

Okay. If not,

I can always take it off.

-The key to my heart?

-Yeah.

You're gonna take it off?

You could have given me

an engagement ring already.

(SLAPS LEG)

Yep.

I'm Riley,

and I'm Sav's girlfriend.

Yeah! Finger cuffs.

We've known each other for,

like, seven years maybe.

That's g*y. (CHUCKLES)

We met each other

when we were very little.

Okay.

It feels like a long time ago.

When I was 17

and you were 18.

-We met online.

-Whoo!

On Tumblr.

You got to move

your shoulders, too, though.

-I did.

-You did it terribly.

(LAUGHS)

We were nerdy teenagers

that liked "Glee,"

and we became friends.

Oh, oh, and we bonded over

your lies.

-My lies?

-Yeah.

I was like, "Oh, my God,

I love 'Lord of the Rings.'"

And you were like,

"Oh my God,

I love 'Lord of the Rings,'

too."

Little did I know,

you had no idea

what you were talking about.

No, I really liked you

and wanted to be your friend,

so I lied about liking

"Lord of the Rings."

This whole relationship

is based on a lie.

Yeah, you were like, "Oh,

I want to name my dog 'Gimli.'"

And I was like, "Gimli?"

And you were like,

"From 'Lord of the Rings.'"

Everybody knows that.

I was like, "Oh, sh*t.

I've been caught."

I wanted you to be

my friend really bad,

and I thought that if I didn't

like "Lord of the Rings,"

you wouldn't want

to talk to me anymore.

We followed each other,

and one day, we started

messaging each other on the--

on the website,

and then one day,

I was going to be away

from my computer

and I just couldn't stand

the thought

of not talking to you

for that long.

I think it was, like,

a long weekend or something,

and I was just like, "Okay,

this is a little weird,

but, you know,

can you give me your number?

I'll give you mine,

and we can text."

That was, like, a kind of

a crucial step

to our relationship--

as friends, at this point.

Check this out.

There's a "Chasing Amy" hat

down there.

-Yeah, I see it.

-And then there's a--

RODGERS:

I think that's French?

-A French VHS of "Chasing Amy."

-RILEY: Yeah.

And I told Kevin,

I was like,

"Oh, man, you have

the hat at the store."

And he's like,

"Do you want it?"

And I was like, "Kevin,

that's your hat.

I don't need it." (LAUGHS)

Why didn't you say yes?

If Kevin wants to get me a hat,

he can get me a hat,

but I'm not going to

take the one from the store.

Get on it, Kevin.

Lovely. Lovely.

RODGERS:

That's just me.

f*cking look at that.

-Are you in it?

-RODGERS: Yeah.

I think that's smart.

I mean, I'm not thrilled

about it, necessarily.

No, I think that's smart.

But--

You had me at "Hello."

-All right, sound.

-MAN 1: Rolling.

-Cameras.

-MAN 1: Speed. Speed.

That speed? Okay.

K1, Take 1--

soft sticks.

Can you take me through

the genesis

of creating "Chasing Amy?"

"Chasing Amy"

is a weird bouillabaisse, right?

Like, for years, I've told

a version of, you know,

why that movie happened,

and they're all true,

but it's more like all of them

rather than any one single path.

Donald, my brother,

being g*y plays a big part

in what "Chasing Amy" becomes.

When I told my brother I wanted

to be a filmmaker, I said,

"What about movies?

It must be irritating to sit

through a f*cking movie

where two people that

you don't identify with, like,

f*cking fall in love."

And he goes, "Well,

I can identify with love."

You had me at "Hello."

"But yeah, it's weird that 99%

of the things that I go out

to see are about

straight people."

I committed in my head

in that moment,

I'm always going to f*cking try

to whip in

a little g*y content for Don.

Then I got Scott Mosier,

and this has everything

to do with where

"Chasing Amy" comes from.

When we met in film school,

we were just like,

"Hey, like, you write a movie,

I'll write a movie,

and then we'll go make it."

I wrote some piece of sh*t,

and he wrote "Clerks."

So I finished "Clerks" first,

and he came down and kind of

got trapped into the role

of de facto producer.

To go back

to the very, very beginning,

we make "Clerks"

and we get into Sundance,

and John Pierson

is repping the film,

and he's also repping

a film called "Go Fish,"

which was written

by Guinevere Turner

and directed by Rose Troche.

My name is Guinevere Turner.

I am a screenwriter,

a filmmaker, an actress,

a lover, a warrior,

and a warrior princess.

Everyone was looking

forward to "Go Fish."

Everyone knew

about the avant garde,

black and white l*sbian movie

and stuff.

Our movie was-- like,

there was no buzz whatsoever.

"Clerks" and "Go Fish,"

which was my first film, are--

They're basically,

like, siblings

in the indie film world

of the '90s.

They are black and white.

They are endless chatter

that only the people

who are being represented

would care about.

It's all about everybody

being on your side, as well.

It's not only about romance.

It's about having good friends,

and it's about having people

rooting for you, you know?

And yeah, those are things

that-- those are-- I think

that's what makes it

a universal film.

"Go Fish" comes out of a very

instinctive need to be, like,

"What the f*ck?"

Where are we

in l*sbian movies?

We weren't even outraged,

we were so young.

We were confused about, like,

why haven't we seen ourselves?

The girls were on fire

because their movie

was playing long

before ours and stuff.

So we started hanging out

with them there.

But, you know, Scott's, like,

funny and charming--

like, way more funny and

charming than me, to be honest.

And so him and Gwen, like,

hit it off instantly.

I became incredibly smitten

or sort of,

like, enthralled

with Guinevere Turner.

I just developed what I can

only call

a romantic friendship

with Scott Mosier,

who was just--

is just a lovely person.

Like, Kevin is a smart a*s,

as*h*le, wonderful f*ck face.

Scott Mosier is the yin

to that yang.

He'd go up to the city

and hang out with Gwen,

and Gwen would come down

to New Jersey

and hang out with Scott.

They would just go, like,

f*ck off.

And then they'd hang out

in Scott's room with, like,

the door closed

and, you know...

This girl is g*y.

We were in this moment

where we had all

just become filmmakers of note

while not expecting it at all.

And I just spent

a lot of time with Mosier.

I just loved him.

Part of "Chasing Amy" comes

from me watching that and going,

"You should do a movie."

I literally said to Scott,

"You should write a movie

about this sh*t."

In the moment he said it,

I was like, "I don't even know

what it is."

Like, I had no clarity

about what, like--

I don't even know

what the story was.

I'd sort of expressed

how I felt,

and I knew how she felt,

and I knew who she was,

so by sort of laying

all the cards on the table,

I think it actually

is the reason

why we had this sort

of romantic friendship.

-I love you.

-I love you, too.

-This is really cool.

-What?

This park is awesome.

This place is awesome.

Being here with you

is awesome.

I don't remember exactly

the first time I saw your face.

It was probably pretty early on.

Being able to put a face

to this--

like, best friend that I kept

in my pocket was amazing.

And then I heard your voice

and I was like,

"That is the sexiest voice

I've ever heard

in my entire life."

I'm always self-conscious

of being on camera, so--

but I'm way more self-conscious

when you're here, though,

-for some reason.

-Why?

I don't know,

'cause I think our relationship

is pretty private.

I like you, Holden.

I haven't liked a man

in a long time,

and I want you to feel

comfortable with me

because I'd really like us

to be friends.

So part of it was Scott

and Gwen going like, "Man,

like, f*cking,

what a great story.

The guy falls in love

with a l*sbian.

You should write that

as a movie. No? I'll do it."

It's kind of weird

being in a place

where, like...

a bunch of stuff,

like, changed your life.

You know,

like, the fact that, like,

"Clerks" happened

made "Chasing Amy" happen.

I don't feel, like, transformed

emotionally or anything,

but it's cool to, like,

come to a place

where my life was weirdly

affected in a positive way.

All right, let's go.

SMITH:

"Clerks" began my career.

"Mallrats" k*lled my career.

So you got me needing

to do something to stay

in this business,

or else we were out.

That's a big part of

where that movie comes from.

And then, of course,

Joey.

Holden, Banky,

this pile of PMS

is Alyssa Jones.

The character of Alyssa

is actually a confluence of me,

his only l*sbian friend,

and Joey,

who he met and fell in love with

on the set of "Mallrats."

My next guest

is a very talented actress

who's been getting great reviews

for her role

in the film "Chasing Amy."

It's in theaters right now.

Please welcome

Joey Lauren Adams.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

SMITH:

"Chasing Amy" without

Joey would have been

a soulless husk.

Like, an idea-- Joey and I

are in this relationship,

and then we're starting

to have these issues,

that becomes more interesting

to me, where I'm like,

"Well, maybe that should be

what the movie's about."

So maybe the idea is a guy

falls in love with a l*sbian,

but like, what trips him up

is not, like,

that he's fallen in love

with a l*sbian.

What trips him up

is, like, at one point,

she had sex with a guy.

I was very much like Holden.

I was very insecure

about girlfriends past

at the time

that I wrote that movie.

I have a very particular...

fondness for Joey Lauren Adams.

She is an Arkansas farm gal

and so grounded.

-You come from...

-Arkansas.

Arkansas, all right.

And you got--

Is your family there--

are they pretty conservative?

Yeah, so I have some,

you know,

members that are very religious

and then others who aren't.

They're just a little

backwards sometimes.

And of course, young women

often have an image

and are not allowed to be

much more than that image.

You got bent out of shape the

same way over that costume party

when we were in high school.

You f*cked Rick Derris

on a pool table--

with everyone watching,

no less.

It was a costume party, T.S.

No one could tell

it was me.

But I appreciated her

down-to-earthness

and her native intelligence.

You play someone like Alyssa

in "Chasing Amy,"

who's so with it and articulate,

it's hard to go

and play the obligatory

girlfriend in some film.

And this character is strong

and smart and funny.

SMITH:

Dire Straits has a song

called "Romeo and Juliet,"

and there's a really wonderful

line in it where he says,

"I dreamed your dreams for you,

and now your dreams are real."

That's what it always felt like.

She really wanted

to be that actress.

She was friends

with Parker Posey,

and Parker, the year before

was the indie "it" girl

with a movie "Party Girl."

And me

Like, Joey wanted that--

to be considered,

like, an actress,

serious actress.

And within, like, a year's time,

two years time,

I was able to give her

that kind of gift wrapped.

But, you know,

she had a lot to do with it.

The Golden Globe--

that's a big, big deal.

I think you do

really, really nice work.

Thank you.

And you're going to be

a big star.

Thank you. This is, like,

the pinnacle of my career.

"Chasing Amy" and the rest

of my f*cking

professional career

was forged in a cauldron of--

of two years.

Not just my career, but who

I would become as a person.

Generally speaking, it all ends

if "Chasing Amy" doesn't happen.

But if you went back and told

27-year-old Kevin Smith that,

"Hey, man, f*cking--

to get all that,

you have to sacrifice

this relationship,"

that kid wouldn't have done it.

That kid was so surprised that

everything crumbled after that.

He thought it would only

make things, like, stronger.

He was very naive.

(INDISTINCT CONVERSATIONS)

(LAUGHTER)

RODGERS:

I've been in love with you--

it sounds stupid

to say from, like,

the first second

we started talking,

but that's really how

it feels.

I don't remember a time knowing

you that I did not like you

or love you so expansively,

it felt like it was going

to swallow my heart whole.

I thought it was so cool

that you were, like,

an out l*sbian

to your friends.

I was very out on the Internet,

very closeted in real life.

(LAUGHTER)

(CRYING)

RODGERS:

I'd picked a date

that I was going to tell you

that I liked you,

and you were the first person

I came out to as q*eer,

because I wanted you to know

that I was a romantic option.

And it was the entire reason

I came out.

You were the first person

that I talked to every day

and the last person

I talked to at night.

SHE SAID "YES"!

The second my alarm

went off at,

like, six in the morning

or something,

I was already texting you, and

you were up at the same time,

and we were just, like, texting

back and forth, back and forth.

(LAUGHS)

We helped each other

get through the day

because back then when we met,

it was dark times

for both of us.

You know, being a teen

is just the worst thing ever,

and we just helped each other.

Fellas, I'm off the market

officially.

What about to the ladies?

Ladies, actually.

(WHOOSH)

-Hey, everybody.

-Hi.

We're filming BTS.

Is that okay?

Say again?

Is it okay

if we film some BTS?

-Happily.

-All right.

Folks, here's some of

the most metal water

you will ever drink

in your life.

RODGERS:

This is what you said

of John Pierson in 2003--

"It's rare when you become

friendly with your heroes.

It's rarer still when, even

after ten years of friendship

and familiarity,

they remain your heroes."

I guess I never really thought

of you as as my hero growing up

because I was just

a "Chasing Amy" fanatic,

but in this process of getting

to make this movie,

I think you have become

a, you know, a hero,

not on a pedestal,

but as the the person

who helped make

all of this possible.

You know, I'd be lying

if I was like, "Oh, my God,

I was trying to reach you."

You know what I'm saying?

But you got reached regardless.

And I didn't know it was you,

but, like, I was telling

my story. That's all I ever do.

But when you told me

the story, I'm like,

"Oh, I haven't met you before,

but I've met you before."

People who are like,

"That f*cking saved my life."

Your case stands out

because I'm like,

"Savannah's way too young

for this sh*t to matter."

They've made way too many

better,

more expressive,

more on point,

more from the community

point of view movies than this.

But when you explained it

and, you know, in the TED Talk,

I was like,

"That makes sense."

It was surprising

but delightful

that you found

something in it.

Like that, it played a role

in your world.

Like, as an artist,

as the guy who made it,

of course, that just means,

like, everything.

All right, let's stop

for a minute.

RILEY:

Are you happy?

(LAUGHS)

So we started dating,

and I was out

and completely open

to being q*eer, but...

you were not.

We were dating for two years

by the time you came out

-as q*eer to your family.

-Yeah.

I'm from Mexico City,

born and raised--

one of the first cities in the

world to legalize g*y marriage.

However, in my--

in my family, in my circle,

there was--

it was like, "Okay,

it's great that g*y people

can get married,

but, you know,

can they do it over there?"

Ow! Hide my double chin.

RILEY:

I wanted to talk to you

about the thing I told my dad

because, you know, he's my dad.

Yeah?

But I was

a little bit worried

because he can be

a little bit traditional

and, like, honestly,

I don't even know

how much he knows about,

like, trans people.

Personally, I was very nervous

because I didn't want anybody

to be anything other than

nice to you and accepting.

He was just, like,

"Um, does that--

And what does that mean

to your relationship?"

And I was just like,

"Well, things are going

to stay the same.

We still love each other

with everything we have,

and nothing has changed."

And then he was like,

"Oh, well, I'm really glad

that things are progressing."

And then he was like,

"Is he happy?"

-And he used the pronoun...

-Wow.

-Like straight-up.

-Wow.

-Yeah.

-That's... surprising

and very sweet.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I was like, "Yes.

You know this--

in terms of identity

and-- and self-image

and stuff like that,

it's the happiest

I've ever seen him."

Yeah.

And he was just like,

"I'm very happy for you both."

And another thumbs up.

-Wow. That is...

-Yeah.

...like all you can ask for,

right?

(WHOOSH)

(INDISTINCT CONVERSATIONS)

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

-Nice to meet you, Alex.

-Nice to meet you.

-S-A-V.

-Oh, that's an awesome name.

-Sav. Brandon.

-Nice to meet you.

I'm the director of

"Chasing Chasing Amy."

I love "Chasing Amy."

I think it's way more sincere

than a lot of his other stuff.

He was on the forefront

of issues

that people are

talking about today.

I think there would be

a little less controversy

about it today if it came out.

But-- but that's probably

just some idealistic

thinking on my part

because I don't really follow

the news that much.

If you can't watch that movie

and find anything about it

that you don't love, something's

really wrong with you.

(LAUGHS)

So-- But...

"Chasing Amy" was, to me,

more of a film

made for straight white men

that was,

you know, kind of introducing

people to q*eer communities.

"Chasing Amy," when it came out,

was controversial.

And I remember even thinking

to myself as I'm watching it,

I'm like,

"Wonder what my g*y friends

are going to think of this."

If you've been marginalized

because of media that says

that lesbians can

all of a sudden not be lesbians

if they find the right man,

I totally get why

this movie would trigger you.

LODER:

Hi, I'm Kurt Loder

with MTV News.

"Boy meets l*sbian"

is the high concept thesis

of a new movie

opening on Friday in Boston,

Los Angeles,

San Francisco, Atlanta,

and a few other cities.

The movie is "Chasing Amy,"

the third film

from director Kevin Smith.

The theme, once again

is post-high school anxiety,

but does the boy

get the l*sbian?

And for that matter,

how much of a l*sbian

is the l*sbian in question?

It's giving certain men

this belief

that you should go

after your l*sbian friends

if you're attracted to them,

right?

And that, like,

they might reciprocate.

Do you remember

for one f*cking second who I am?

So, I mean, you know,

people change.

Oh!

Oh, it's that simple?

"Chasing Amy" is

a very particular q*eer story.

If q*eer cinema were a--

were a bus,

"Chasing Amy" would be like,

outside the bus,

but it would be outside the bus

in relatively good company.

There are other movies

from the same time period

and earlier that are

much more sensitive

with their perspectives,

with their language,

but that may not have been

as mainstream.

Can I kiss you?

How come we didn't know

about this before?

I mean, you don't seem g*y.

I didn't say I was g*y.

I said I was in love.

And so, like, even today,

we fall into the trappings

of mainstream expectations

when it comes to q*eer media.

RODGERS:

Do you understand

why certain LGBTQ people

may not like "Chasing Amy?"

Yeah, of course.

Absolutely.

Believe me, I've had 22 years

to get used to that,

and I got used to that on the

f*cking first week it came out.

There were some people, as Gwen

predicted, that were upset.

The backlash to be expected,

of course,

is from the l*sbian community,

and not really unfairly.

Like here you are,

you're a white straight male.

What are you doing writing

a movie about g*y people

or especially

a l*sbian character?

But Gwen also said,

"I was always surprised

that more people

didn't come after you."

The biggest blowback--

and God's truth-- that I heard,

felt, and was told about was

when they told me that Ellen

and Anne Heche went to see

"Chasing Amy,"

and it was reported

that they walked out

in the first half hour.

And us being like,

"Man, like--

well, that's the most famous

l*sbian in the world.

We just lost her.

That means we're never

getting on 'The Ellen Show.'"

Kevin Smith can't know

what it's like to be

a q*eer person

or a trans person.

Now that we know that

we're attracted to each other,

what do we do?

But he can know

what it's like to know them

and to have them in his life,

and that's the story

he's telling.

A big complaint seems

to be about Banky,

who'll, like, use

pretty harsh terminology

and throw around the "F" word

and stuff like that.

Well, yeah.

Banky's not "the villain,"

but Banky is meant to be

the idiot in the story.

What'd I tell you?

She just needs the right guy.

All every woman really wants,

be it mother, senator, nun,

is some serious

deep dicking.

Jason Lee's

character Banky is "the way in"

for straight guys

watching this movie.

LEE:

I remember telling Kevin

that I was nervous

about some of Banky's dialog.

"You know, Kevin, there's just

a lot of offensive things

that Banky is saying,

and I don't want to be hated.

Like I don't want people

to think Banky

is just some ignorant prick."

What does it matter

if I refer to her as a d*ke?

Banky is just flat out g*y.

He was just repressed.

That's why he was so angry

and projecting and sh*t.

But I would like to state,

for the record,

did create all these characters

or rather steal them

from real life people.

So if anybody gets to say what

happens to him, I think it's me.

It isn't a healthy thing

to say that your h*m*

is excused

because you are g*y

and you're closeted

and you're trying

to deal with that,

especially if you're hurting

other q*eer people.

You don't just get

a pass for that.

When you say that all

h*m* are secretly g*y,

what you're doing is blaming

g*y people for h*m*.

Exactly. And not just,

you know, bigots.

Right.

As time moves on, we look at

these films that have been made

and we start to read them

a little differently.

There's so much that you

would not get away with today

that they got away

with just fine.

And nobody even

questioned it.

Like that there would be

a h*m* character

that uses the word "f*gg*t"

over and over and over again.

I think now we would judge

that director

and that would be

very problematic.

Back in the day, he was just

accurately portraying

how a guy like that

would actually talk.

What if she's

carrying a disease?

And you could just bring

to life flawed characters.

It's very much a film of

its time,

but it's still coming out

of that era

where people don't know

as much about,

like, the LGBTQ community.

A House panel

says no to g*y marriages.

Yesterday, the Judiciary

Committee approved a bill

that would keep same sex unions

invalid under federal law,

even if a state

makes them legal.

What is it about g*y men that

terrifies the rest of the world?

The Hooper X character

in the film

is really sort of

the moral compass.

There has always been

a hard thing when it comes

to, like, any sort of like,

doubly marginalized community,

of how do we tackle

both things at once?

There's an element of what--

you know,

what's called twoness

going on there.

And twoness is being black

and being an American.

And but twoness can also

be black and being g*y.

It's pretty easy

for Holden and Banky

to write a comic book about

a bunch of stoners superheroes.

There's not a lot of risk there.

I got to deal with being

a minority

in the minority

of the minority,

and nobody's supporting

my a*s.

That character could be

the whole subject

of a whole film of itself.

One of my first notes that I was

taking while I was watching

was Ben Affleck's

goatee was a bad idea.

And... Well, that's

that's the first note,

so I guess that tells you

all you need to know.

RODGERS:

You know, when I was

growing up, I was, like,

"Holden, what a cool guy."

And then I like, grew up

and I was like,

"No, Banky was such a babe

in that movie."

He was, like, the cool guy.

Holden's, like, f*cking wearing,

like, this loose flannel

and these jeans that don't fit

him right, and the goatee.

No wonder

he attracted a l*sbian.

(LAUGHS)

That's going into the movie.

(LAUGHS)

Naturally, I gravitate

toward the Holden character.

That is the closest character

that I've ever written

to myself.

This girl loves me,

my friend--

loves me,

you know what I'm saying?

YARROW:

It's a film that centers

Holden McNeil,

who is a straight white man,

and so his lens

really shapes the storyline.

And while there are

sort of diverse perspectives,

it's still very much

Holden's lens.

There's always this assumption

that all we need

is to meet this right man,

and then we will change

everything about ourselves

to be with him

because it's a standard,

it's tradition,

it's just the way

that things are.

Why girls?

Why men?

Well, because that's

the standard.

And so I think we've been

faced with that

for most of our lives,

and so a lot of lesbians,

I think, innately just--

they detest that,

and I understand why.

There's this scene

in the movie

where Holden chases after Alyssa

in the rain

and she like, lets him have it.

She's just like, "Screw you."

That was so unfair!

"I'm l*sbian.

You're an idiot.

How dare you?

I'm going to hitch

a ride back home."

And I was like,

"Yes, like, that's so good."

And then he, like, mopes back

to his car, and I'm like,

"Get out of there, Ben Affleck."

And then she runs back

to him and kisses him.

And I was like, "No!"

(LAUGHS)

I was watching

Ben Affleck's speech

and I was thinking like,

"Holy crap,

this is actually,

literally the speech

that anyone, g*y or straight,

would want to hear."

I love you.

Very, very simple.

Where I, like, related

to "Chasing Amy"

coming into it was that Kevin

is such a romantic

in the way that he describes

his feelings of love.

You are the-- the epitome

of everything I have ever

looked for

in another human being.

That's how I feel

about my fiance.

(INDISTINCT CONVERSATIONS)

So this is what

I'm sending.

"I'm taking my fiance

on a date to some diner

you shot in 20 years ago."

And this is where

Ben Affleck sat.

My butt has been where

Ben Affleck's butt has been.

Basically Ben Affleck.

Little shorter.

RODGERS:

This movie made me

be honest with myself,

"Chasing Amy"

and "Chasing Chasing Amy."

You did it too late.

You tried to cheat.

I won.

(SIGHS)

This is the worst.

You brought me

all the way to New Jersey.

RODGERS:

The last time I was here,

I was not very honest

with myself about who I was,

and now I'm back here

and engaged, more out.

It's a pretty good situation

to be in.

And now, I guess the weight

of this place isn't as heavy.

It's just a place,

and I'm not nearly as nervous as

I was just to exist in the world

or sh**t in New Jersey.

It's kind of nice.

It's the "Chasing Amy"

memorial table.

Where h*m*

go to die.

Well, you're the only h*m*

at this table.

I'm half.

I hope that went

on the record.

That I'm half g*y?

Because-- Yeah,

Because you're half g*y.

(LAUGHS)

(WHOOSH)

The character of

Alyssa Jones is Joey Adams.

It's written for Joey about Joey

based on things Joey said.

The bigger difference,

of course, is Alyssa is--

you know, she's identifies

as a l*sbian,

at least in the beginning

of the movie.

I think Alyssa Jones,

as a character,

was an incredible role

for a woman at that time.

There really weren't

tons of roles for women

that had robust,

intelligent dialogue and banter

and the ability

to be more than one dimensional.

I think Kevin writes well

for women

because Kevin's very in touch

with his feminine side.

He's very much the female

in our relationship,

and I'm more the male.

He's very romantic.

He's very sentimental.

This character that

Kevin Smith created of Alyssa

is sort of, like, maybe a leap

and a bound

above the rest of the film

and past the time period in

which that this movie came out.

She's cool. She, like,

gets on the mic at a d*ke night,

you know, and makes out

with her girlfriend in public.

There are things in this movie

that are so ill-advised.

Like, they're on the swings,

and he says like...

"Well, where's the penetration

in l*sbian sex?"

The finger?

She goes...

Observe.

I don't know if anyone

in this room

has ever fisted someone,

but you for sure

don't do it like that.

Alyssa Jones

as a q*eer character

still comes in a very appetizing

to the male gaze package.

She's blonde, she's thin,

she's sexually available.

She has a promiscuous past.

I thought you would be

into this.

You did?

What does that say about me?

You've done stuff

like this before.

I mean, this should be

no big deal for you.

Any aspect of that movie

that might have seemed

ahead of its time

when we made it has long since,

like-- history has caught up

and then gone past it

to the point

where people do look at it

as "problematic"

or something like that.

This movie is, like,

so accidentally good

at talking about biphobia.

There are so many things that

the character Alyssa will say

that I have thought about

or seen in my q*eer experiences

with other q*eer women,

and I just felt like

how interesting it was

that Kevin Smith ended up

making this movie

when the intent

is clearly not there.

It really infuriates me

on this film

when we hear feedback about how

it's some guy's sexual fantasy,

and he's portraying women

and lesbians in a bad way,

because he really does--

he has such an honest respect

for women,

and he really understands them.

And I think it's obvious

in most of his scripts.

The way that Alyssa

as a character,

defines her experience

is really beautiful.

She offers language

for things that people

have not been able

to say before.

I like that Alyssa is never

actually questioning

her own sexuality.

Everyone else is doing it

for her, but she's good.

She knows what's up.

One of my favorite parts

of the film

is when they're lying

in each other's arms,

Holden and Alyssa,

and he says

something that's like,

very male, right?

Like, "Why me?

Why am I so special?"

And she has this beautiful,

like, sweet,

short monologue about...

I came to this

on my own terms.

Which is why

it makes it okay.

I'm not with you because

of what family, society, life

tried to instill in me

from day one.

She didn't fall into

a heterosexual relationship

because it was what was expected

of her or what the norm was,

what the assumption was.

She chose it.

So being able to see somebody

own their experience

in that way is really beautiful.

I think it taught me the

importance of, like-- at least

in that time of labeling myself

as bi, not allowing anyone

to tell me

that I wasn't q*eer enough.

The one scene that gives us,

I think, the most insight

about her

is the scene with her friends,

because you get to see

kind of her friends react

to her sexual fluidity.

She's like,

"Yeah, I'm with this guy now."

And they're like..

Another one bites the dust.

It's, like, in that moment,

it's not as if, like,

"Oh, she's just a different

kind of q*eer person."

It's as if her queerness

is now erased.

She is just a person trying to

find love, find companionship,

find someone who will be her

equal in so many things,

and I think that's touching.

To immediately halve

your options

by eliminating

the possibility of finding

that one person

within your own gender--

that just seems stupid to me.

DR. JEN:

It's hard to pinpoint

bisexuality

as a media representation

because it really operates

between two polar extremes.

There's the invisibility

and then there's

the hyper visibility.

So the invisibility refers

to the fact

that bisexual stories

haven't been told for very long.

Language is really important.

Being able to have a way

to talk about something

gives us the ability

to be that.

So if you don't have something

to call yourself,

how do you explain it to the

people who are important to you?

I'm not even sure

bisexuality exists.

I think it's just a layover

on the way to g*y town.

When are you gonna make up your

mind between d*ck and p*ssy?

And spare us

the gory bisexual details.

Well, I'll see

your fugitive former flame

and raise you

a l*sbian daughter.

Marissa?

Well, I'm sure it's just

a phase.

It was for me.

The hypervisibility is

all of the stereotypes

that we attach to bisexuality,

and "Chasing Amy"

brings up

a lot of those things.

The idea that bisexuality

is associated

with promiscuity

or sexual experience.

People often think of bisexual

people as being confused

because they aren't being true

to themselves.

A lot of that confusion

comes from the social scripts

that are laid in front of us.

It's the cultural context.

It's not that that person

doesn't understand

how they individually feel.

(WHOOSH)

(INDISTINCT CONVERSATIONS)

(LAUGHS)

MAN 2:

All right, y'all, ready?

One, two, three.

The coverage?

(LAUGHS)

Yeah. One, two, three.

(INDISTINCT CONVERSATIONS)

RODGERS:

Take me through the genesis

of you two meeting.

I've heard Kevin's point

of view on it.

Well, Kevin has a far

superior memory than I do.

That's just a very nice way

of saying,

"Kevin cared more

than I ever did."

I remember meeting you.

All right, let's hear where.

It's a boring story

if I just say, like,

"Yeah, I walked onto set,

and he was there."

Is that where we met?

That's where I remember.

See?

I care more than she does.

We met in an audition

for "Mallrats."

-Okay, but that's where it--

-You did walk into a room.

That's where it gets

a little hazy for me.

You don't remember this?

f*ck.

This is why we broke up.

So did you guys start doing it

while you were

still in production,

or did you wait till "Mallrats"

was finished sh**ting?

"Bio-dome" was--

I was sh**ting "Bio-dome."

You were sh**ting--

No, I was done with "Bio-dome."

You were done--

We hated each other.

SMITH:

When I started dating Joey,

which was after "Mallrats"--

We met on "Mallrats,"

and we had great chemistry.

Like, just fooling around.

We'd make fun of each other,

mock each other, like,

all the time and sh*t.

(SCREAMS)

I didn't realize

we were flirting.

That's how I talked

to most girls.

On "Mallrats," when he first

gave me my line reading,

he also told me

what to do with my hand

while I was saying the line,

and I almost had to leave

the room for a second

just to sort of--

you know,

my face turned red

and it's just so enraging.

But you just learn

to swallow your pride

and then you see

your performance

and you see the take

that when you did it your way

and then the take when you did

it his way and you just go,

"Oh, he's right."

She was just cool. Joey was

like, fun to be around.

Because I think he's funny.

-That helped.

-I would really laugh hard--

He could really make me laugh.

But not-- but it wasn't like--

you didn't give it away

for free.

You made me earn it and stuff,

but, like--

they were all top shelf.

The one time she said, like,

"You're the funniest person

I know,"

like, that's--

that's f*cking everything.

ADAMS:

It's nice when you do

a dramatic scene.

They called cut and it was

the greatest thing in the world

to have my boyfriend

come over and-- and hold me.

She was literally my muse.

I had a real insecurity

about, like,

she had a bigger past than me.

The scene in "Chasing Amy" where

Holden is like, baiting her...

Do you know a guy

named Rick Derris?

(PLAYERS GRUNT)

-Rick Derris?

-Yeah.

Sure. We used to hang out

in high school.

SMITH:

That was me.

I admired Kevin so much

because he had found

such a strong voice

and knew who he was without

having to go live in Bali.

...Alyssa, with you,

because...

I feel inadequate,

because you've had

such a big life

and so much experience,

and my life's been pretty small

in comparison.

That doesn't matter to me.

It did start functioning

as I'd write a scene

and give it to her.

We'd talk about it and, like,

she'd get emotional

because you were like,

"This is an apology." That scene

in the movie is kind of like,

"Oh, Holden figured it out,

too."

And then, of course,

Holden figured it out

because the guy who writes

for Holden figured it out.

Looks like a very

personal story.

(SIGHS)

I finally had

something personal to say.

RODGERS:

"Chasing Amy"

has touched me in ways

that I didn't anticipate.

I wanted to feel love so badly

watching that movie.

I was like,

"I want some of that."

It's a roadmap of how to not

f*ck up your relationship.

(LAUGHTER)

RILEY:

I think even calling you

"best friend,"

it didn't cover

what I felt for you.

ICE RINK

It was just like,

this is, like, a soulmate.

We were bonded on,

like, some next level.

I could talk to you

about anything,

and you just kept me going.

And, you know,

I think I did that for you, too.

You were so supportive at a time

when I was...

so alone in the world.

I mean, it was dark times

for both of us.

Every night you would just have,

like, these dark thoughts.

You would just talk about how,

you know, you hated--

you hated school

and, like, you hated your life.

The main thing was that

you just felt, like,

so alone in the world.

And I just remember being, like,

so adamant.

You have me, You have me,

You have me.

Maybe it's not enough,

but it's something.

I could just be this tiny,

tiny thing

that maybe was worth it--

you know, staying alive.

I feel a lot of shame

about that period.

-You shouldn't.

-I do.

I feel so much shame

because I put a lot on you.

But it's not about

putting things on me.

We were--

even before we were dating,

we've always been a team.

Can we cut?

We about ready?

Everybody speeding?

"Chasing Amy," well received.

Gets great f*cking reviews

up there.

It did as it was intended.

Popped Joey in a big, bad way.

She was getting press

like crazy.

-But it was--

-Well, I'm a fan of this one.

-(LAUGHS)

-Sounds like--

Her and I would do press

together as well,

which was kind of fun.

And our relationship started

kind of faltering and stuff.

Movie came out in April of '97.

We were broken up by July of '97

and the relationship was over.

You came on the show

when "Chasing Amy" came out

and we were rooting

for you then,

and this is very exciting

and you deserve this.

The Golden Globes ceremony

is going to be on January 18th,

so we'll cross

our fingers for you.

Thanks so much for coming.

It's very easy to romanticize

the end of the relationship

and be like,

"Our relationship was sacrificed

on the altar of 'Chasing Amy.'"

Like that's where

our relationship went.

Like, "I'm not saying

if there was no movie,

we'd still be

f*cking together today."

Just putting everything out

there probably brought it

to an end a lot sooner than it

maybe might have naturally gone.

I never have a single regret

about it.

There's no way I would be

in a marriage

that has lasted 20 years

if I didn't meet Joey

and she didn't shape me.

When you watch "Chasing Amy,"

the tail end of the movie,

and you get this feeling like

he might figure it out one day.

And the scene in "Reboot"

allows you proof that,

like, he worked it out.

Alyssa and I aren't married.

Married people

don't like each other.

We're co-parents.

Wait a sec.

You have a kid?

Yeah. Alyssa and her partner

wanted to have a baby,

and since we've known each

other, and more importantly,

liked each other for 20 years,

they asked me to be the father.

In making that

little "Chasing Amy" sequel

in the middle of "Reboot,"

I kind of got to go

and address the criticism.

It's always a story

that should have been told

from a q*eer perspective

or a woman's perspective

or any perspective

other than cis white male's.

What was really beautiful to me

was catching up with Kevin

and hearing him talk about

where he was in his life

and where the scene came from

for him.

SMITH:

In the first draft

of the scene,

Holden and Alyssa had sex

to have the baby.

And so Joey was like, "Kevin,

you can't do that."

Like, I just had a remarkable

conversation with you

about how much

the movie meant to you,

but I almost didn't.

I almost just wrote back like,

"Oh, it's great. I love it.

Can't wait to sh**t it.'

How wonderful that somebody

who is such a fan of the movie

affected what

the storytelling would be.

That's crazy.

"Chasing Amy" has always, like,

in a weird way, been part of--

it's different in that way--

that Kevin and I were dating,

and he wrote it

when we were dating,

and it's about part

of our growth.

I walked out of

that relationship fixed,

and nobody really can say that

at the end

of a relationship.

It wasn't like we ended

like, "See you later, pal."

Like, you know,

it was kind of shitty.

Apparently, I wrote

a passive aggressive letter

and just left Toronto.

And left a broom.

And left a broom.

Well, she said she needed

a broom,

and it was such a f*ck-you move

because she had told me,

like, at one point, she's like,

"I need a broom

for this place."

So I wrote this, like, Dear John

breakup letter and sh*t,

and I went out of my way

to buy her a broom

and left it with a note

and it's like,

"P.S., They say

it sweeps clean."

Oh, I was such an as*h*le.

But in any event,

it was-- like, I became

the person that I became

for the rest of my life

because of that relationship.

I never went back

to being the other guy.

Please know that I am

forever changed

because of who you are

and what you've meant to me.

Anyway.

RODGERS:

That's all I got.

Thank you both for this.

-This is amazing.

-Thank you.

This is a dream

f*cking come true.

Excellent job.

I'll see you tomorrow.

All right.

Well done, kids.

What are you doing tomorrow?

The one-on-one interview?

-Yeah. Yeah.

-All right.

Finally.

So great to meet you.

Guys, thank you so much

for everything.

Excellent job.

Look at you, making a movie.

I know how documentaries work,

and they always do this thing

where while the camera

is rolling,

before you're actually asked

a question,

they just, like,

do this thing of like...

me being uncomfortable.

(LAUGHS)

RODGERS:

I'm just gonna

let you keep talking then.

(LAUGHTER)

In 1994, lesbians

were not represented

except for movies like

"Desert Hearts"

and "Claire of the Moon."

Sex between women

is as raw as it gets.

What we did with "Go Fish"

was life-changing.

Why are you taunting me?

I don't need to be reminded

every day that

I haven't slept

with a woman in ten months.

Got letters from everywhere.

Young women telling me that

their lives have been changed

by seeing this movie.

We actually ended up becoming

poster children for lesbianism.

I'm not going to lie,

it was very challenging that

we made "Go Fish"

and Kevin met us

and he decided that this would

be an interesting subject.

He was like,

"What do lesbians do?"

And I just started talking about

what it means to be g*y

to the mainstream world

for the first time in my life.

And so I-- you know, I just--

I'm like, "No, like, ask me.

Ask me what?"

Now, watching "Chasing Amy,"

I'm like, huh.

That idea-- when she says,

like, you know,

"I want to go f*ck this girl."

And then he's like,

"What? How do you?"

You said f*ck.

She said f*ck.

You said f*ck to that girl.

You said

that you'd f*ck her.

And?

It gets into

a whole conversation

about the broader term

of f*cking versus penetration.

Well then what's

with saying f*ck?

Shouldn't you say

"eat her out?"

Or at least modify

the term "f*ck"

with something like "fist?"

I'm like, "Hm, you're welcome,

Kevin Smith."

That is 100% a conversation

that we had.

Watching "Chasing Amy"

all these years later,

Kevin Smith has an ear

for dialog.

He's just really good at that.

There's so much in this movie

that makes me just happy--

happy to have been a part of it.

It is heartfelt, it is lovely.

It's so within itself.

It's so true.

There are a lot of, like,

subtleties about friendships,

particularly friendships

between men.

I feel generous in a way

that I 100% didn't

when I was that age,

and I had various decades

of d*ke rage about it.

I was 25 years old,

and I had made a movie

about d*kes

that no one had ever seen.

And I watched him

doing everything

and getting all the deals

and all the things.

The winners are "Clerks,"

directed by Kevin Smith.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

Had our first screening,

was really good,

and the second screening

was was great, too.

There was a piece

in the New York Times

about it as well.

So then the buzz started,

and after that

we had a sit-down dinner

with Harvey Weinstein

and Miramax,

and-- and they were into it

and they picked it up.

TURNER:

And I remember just,

like, sitting with him,

just being like, "Dude,

do you see what's happening?

Like, you're getting all

the opportunities and I'm not."

He was like, "You're jealous,

and you're being weird."

I don't think we--

either of us knew

exactly what was

going to happen.

But what emerged was that

Kevin got an empire,

and we were just some d*kes.

So you make "Chasing Amy"

-for $250,000.

-We did.

And you take the film back

to Harvey Weinstein.

Yes.

So, as you know,

we met with him up

at the Stein Eriksen Lodge,

and I pitched,

"We're going to make

the movie for this.

If you like it,

you keep it.

If not, we take it out

and sell it."

We took it back to him

and showed him the movie

in the Tribeca screening room.

He's crying, Harvey.

And he goes,

"That's a Miramax movie."

Which I loved at the time.

I loved hearing that.

You know, I thought

he was who I thought he was.

Now, put through the filter

of what we know...

tough to f*cking feel

sentimental about it.

I mean, maybe that's

how I do feel-- sentimental.

I go, "How sweet."

Like that,

naive, like 26-27 year-old.

He just believed

everything he was presented.

We go to Sundance with it.

It was an amazing evening

and stuff.

Harvey had dollar signs

in his eyes,

and f*cking everybody was happy,

and it would have been great

if it stayed that way.

This is Sundance '97.

So if you follow

the Harvey Weinstein case,

that's the year

with Rose McGowan at--

where he attacks Rose McGowan.

All of this was happening while

we were doing "Chasing Amy,"

telling, you know,

showing this movie

to the world

that's very feminist

and, you know, kind of

forward thinking and stuff.

I can't erase the past.

I can't go back and take

his name off the f*cking movies.

I don't even own the movies

and sh*t like that.

I can't undo the fact that

my career is tied up with him.

-Hi, Joey.

-ADAMS: Hi.

-How are you?

-Good.

Good.

-RODGERS: We're at your house.

-We are.

Thank you

for letting us be here.

JOEY:

Yeah.

This is the first time

there's been a film crew inside.

Ask me something I haven't been

asked about "Chasing Amy."

Okay.

JOEY:

That's a lot of pressure.

I think I can-- You know what?

I think I can do it, though.

JOEY:

Can you?

This moment

is 13 years in the making.

I think the first time

I saw it,

I was like, "This is a love

story, and I want love."

Like I feel-- You know, I think

the first time I saw it,

I was, like,

very much Holden.

And then slowly, as I started

to know more about my sexuality,

this is my only reference point

to how I may feel

about having a fluid sexuality,

right?

And that movie gave me that--

that reference point,

and it literally is how

I came out to my mom was--

because she didn't know

what pansexual was.

I was like,

"Do you remember 'Chasing Amy?'

I feel how Alyssa feels."

And that was the moment

where my mom was like,

"Is that all? Is that what

all this fuss has been about?"

(LAUGHS)

Well, you have a very cool mom.

A very cool mom.

But anyway, so I feel like

I can ask you a question

that maybe you haven't been

asked a thousand times before,

but I will have to ask you

some very basic questions.

So you get this role.

It's written specifically

for you, it's tailored for you.

And then, you know,

but also,

there's this LGBTQ element

of it.

Was that daunting to play,

as somebody who's straight?

Slightly? I mean,

I think because the script...

was somewhat personal

between Kevin and I,

I felt I had a right to play

the role to some degree.

And my biggest fear was, like,

lipstick l*sbian,

that sort of thing.

I didn't want her

to seem like that.

And I just kept thinking like,

you know, what am I going to do?

What am I going to do?

What am I going to do?

And then I just

realized that like,

I shouldn't do

anything different.

It's not a haircut.

It's not the jewelry.

It's not-- Am I going try

and play her butch? Am I--

Like,

just play her authentic.

For me to try and, like,

do what I think is g*y

just seemed wrong.

Does it feel weird to be,

I don't know,

like, the face of "Chasing Amy?"

Yes. Yes.

JOEY:

Kevin wrote that movie, not me.

It was my story,

to some degree,

but the film

wasn't my truth.

If I were to have written

a film

about Kevin and I's

relationship,

it would have been-- it

would not have been that film.

I was getting to play

a character

that was complicated

and amazing,

but for me to sort of

take credit

for how it affected someone

feels strange to me.

Whatever moved you

was Kevin's truth.

It wasn't my truth.

It's weird for a stranger

to put that on you.

There's a weird energy exchange

right here, and it's--

And I feel like--

Like, are you looking to me

for something

that I can't give you?

I don't know what it is

you want from me.

I don't know why you want

to talk to me.

I don't know.

It's cool that I get

to talk to you at all.

I hope we get to be friends

after this or something.

Right, but it's more

than that.

Like, you would not

have, like--

I mean, there's three cameras

in this room.

-Right.

-And you know what I mean?

Like, if you just wanted

to talk to me,

you could have come

to a convention I did.

-Sure.

-And come up to the table.

Like it's, you know--

like it's more than just, like,

"I just wanted to meet you

and talk to you."

Like, you wouldn't have...

been able to pull all

of this together.

Maybe what I'm here for is,

like,

we have been

strangely connected

through my weird fixation

on this movie.

While I think

it's totally understandable

why I am fixated on this movie.

I think it's really rad that,

you know, giving a f*cking

TED Talk about it.

You know, watching it 200 times

to not k*ll myself.

-Right. Right.

-You know, like that.

And that's not a thing

I'm trying to put on anybody.

But like, that's literally what

my life was.

My journey with it

was so different from yours,

but it had just-- it had

a profound effect on my life.

We really hated each other,

and then we got together

and it's just great.

I'm so in love.

(LAUGHS)

JOEY:

Kevin wasn't just,

like, a boyfriend.

Kevin was a very profound

relationship in my life.

How often do you sit with exes

and go back down memory lane

about a film

that you made together?

It wasn't fun getting sh*t

constantly about having been

with other men,

having gone to Bali.

There were fights

and they were-- they hurt.

You know, it was painful.

It was really, really painful.

As much as I loved Kevin,

it's really awful to be

in a relationship with someone

who, like, never believes

that you love them.

Why me?

You know? Why-- Why now?

Where you're constantly

having to be, like,

"But I wouldn't be with you

if I didn't love you."

-Who's my favorite director?

-WOMAN 2: Yeah.

-You can't ask me that.

-WOMAN 2: Why not?

Because we'll fight

all the way home.

Yeah, exactly.

I got to go home with this guy.

Oh, no.

JOEY:

It wasn't this cathartic

thing that I think

it was for Kevin.

It's not like, you know--

Like we did that movie

and everything was resolved,

which Kevin talks kind of

like...

He wrote the movie

and figured it all out.

While we were making

"Chasing Amy,"

for the first time,

I actually had this moment

where I was like,

"My God, I think I've grown."

I was doing a lot

of emotional directing.

I'm glad that he made a movie,

like, acknowledging

that it's f*cked up,

but it doesn't change the fact

that, like, he made me feel bad

for having lived the life

I had lived

and been who I had been.

Right.

Because he was insecure.

I still carried...

what he had put on me.

"You're with another man?

How dare you?"

What the f*ck's wrong with you?

How could you do

all those things?

Easily!

-RODGERS: It's a lot.

-Yeah.

Wow.

That's-- That's, like,

an enduring kind of,

like, f*cked up thing.

Yeah.

And now there's this, like,

really neat little movie

where everything is, like,

kind of tied up in a bow

because he gives a speech

in a diner.

But what I did not get--

she didn't care.

She wasn't looking

for that guy anymore.

She was-- she was looking

for me-- for-- for the Bob.

And it's like,

everything wasn't okay.

We had still lived

through that.

By the time I figured

this all out,

it's too late.

-She moved on.

-JOEY: I love the movie.

I'm glad I made it,

but it's, like,

I had to take all of that

and put it back on Kevin

because it's not mine to carry.

RODGERS:

It's a lot to deal with.

Wow. Sorry. I'm still--

-I'm just processing all this.

-No, no, no, no.

Um, wow.

I love that this is, like,

unlike any "Chasing Amy"

interview I've ever done.

-See?

-And I might regret it.

-I don't know, but--

-RODGERS: I hope not.

I don't love looking back

on that time.

It brings up, like,

all of those--

those feelings of, like, that--

not just boyfriends,

but, like, casting directors

and producers of just like,

"You're just a piece of meat.

You're a wh*re."

I know that he gets asked

that since we date,

like, what do I look like naked

and things like that.

"What's it like

sleeping with her?"

JOEY:

That was when Harvey was around,

who treated me like sh*t.

And I was, like,

a young actress in Hollywood,

going through all those stories

that you've heard.

-Me like you.

-(LAUGHS)

Oh, I like you.

Hi.

JOEY:

Sundance, for me, was like,

"Oh, Harvey's, like--

doesn't want to f*ck me, so--"

You know,

and there was that energy there.

I mean, we all knew

who Harvey was.

You'd be in a room with him

and you could feel it.

Rose was getting r*ped.

You know, there was

another side to--

to the, like, "We made a movie

that went to Sundance,

and it did really well."

And there's a dark side, too.

I don't wish that like, "God,

I wish we were back doing

'Chasing Amy.'"

Like, that was not, like,

the best time in life for me.

MAN 3:

So how do you feel

about being nominated tonight?

It's wonderful.

I mean, MTV, it's-- I think

that's more my audience

with a film like "Chasing Amy."

So it's an honor.

It really is.

It's that A.D. who's like,

"Come sit in my lap.

Come sit in my lap.

Come on. It's just fun."

Did I make you uncomfortable?

-No, no, no, no.

-I'm sorry.

You know how to make

a boy feel horny.

And you have to do it because

you can't be the actress

that's like, "f*ck you.

I'm not going to sit

in your lap."

Then you're difficult and

no one wants to work with you.

I went back through my IMDb,

of just like,

"Oh, right, on this movie...

Oh, and on that movie...

and on that movie,

the actor would come in

and show us his d*ck."

I hated Harvey.

I hated being around him,

and I hated how Kevin had

to kiss his a*s.

And it's, like, it's hard

to go in as an actress

and like,

knowing that, like,

Harvey doesn't want you

to play the role.

And then for him to never call

and just be like,

"God, I've seen dailies, Joey,

and you're doing a great job."

Like he's just

a f*cking as*h*le.

Like, that's what I was doing

in my 20s.

I was trying to, like, be taken

seriously as an actress,

and then I was dating this guy

who made me feel bad

about myself.

(INDISTINCT CONVERSATIONS)

MAN 4:

Tonight's nominees for

Best Performance by an Actress

in a Motion Picture,

Musical, or Comedy are...

Joey Lauren Adams,

"Chasing Amy."

JOEY:

You see why when you're like,

"Oh my God, 'Chasing Amy'

and this great--"

And, like, again, yes, the movie

is great and it's amazing,

but it's, like,

I have my own story with, like,

what was going on in my life

when-- at that age

and what surrounds that.

And it's those guys-- having to

go to dinner with old men

and being promised roles

and not getting them.

And for Kevin,

it's a funny f*cking story.

RODGERS:

Yeah.

And not to say that Kevin

writing that movie

didn't mean a lot to me.

You know, that he could see

at least,

like, what he was doing

was wrong.

But it doesn't change the two

years that, like, I lived it.

RODGERS:

I'm really grateful still

that you were in this movie.

I am, too.

I mean, I'm incredibly grateful.

And I'm-- And I'm-- you know,

I am so happy that...

that it saved your life.

From the pain

and the f*cked-up-ness

and everything, that something

this beautiful came from it

is incredible.

It could have just been pain

and f*cked-up-ness

and you know,

nothing ever happened.

But that Kevin was able to make

something beautiful from it--

like, that's--

that's what's incredible.

Not me, you know?

RODGERS:

I went back to Kansas

after the Joey interview.

I needed a bit of a break

from making this movie.

-Okay, well.

-RILEY: I can do it.

-Is that how you cut hair?

-Yeah.

RODGERS:

My grandma got sick with cancer.

I wanted to spend time with her,

I'd also just come out as trans.

And I really wanted

to transition privately,

with my family's support.

I've never had a partner

cut my hair before.

You've never had

a partner before?

I-- I dated people before you.

And I really needed

perspective.

Was I naive to go into

that interview the way I did?

Do you want that, like,

completely above your ear or?

Hey, Mom. Can you help her?

Just--

It's about what you want.

I don't know how to--

This is finally

your opportunity.

I don't know how to answer

that question.

I just needed a minute

to collect myself

and to not live

in "Chasing Amy" world.

I'll organize socks.

Yeah, I was going to say that,

because that's about

where your area of expertise

begins and ends.

Wow.

(LAUGHS)

Thank you for doing

the laundry.

You're welcome.

I kind of lost steam--

lost a sense of purpose-- where

I was at with the documentary,

what I wanted to do,

who I want to be.

(PEOPLE CHEER)

-Happy birthday.

-Happy birthday.

-RODGERS: Hello.

-Hello.

-You look cute.

-Thanks.

-Do you like my camera?

-I do.

-It's very high tech.

-I know.

Look at that.

It's the future.

Oh, you can see my mustache.

Of course you can.

It's barely there,

but you can see it.

After a while,

I reached out to Kevin,

and I was just like, "Hey, man,

can we just, like, catch up?"

I got to say, before,

when we first snapped onto Zoom

and I had my--

my windows blocked

because I was closing

other windows,

so I didn't see you.

Yeah. And it threw me

because I was like,

Oh, Sav is having me set up

with some tech,

because it did not sound

like your voice.

That's six months

on testosterone, my dude.

So I've got, like,

a more noticeable mustache,

and then I've got, like,

a lot of hair under here,

but you can't really see it

because I have that Zoom filter

on that makes you look better.

(LAUGHS)

I don't know about that filter.

In the next decade, I'll have

the the beautiful beard

that I've always, like, wanted

and seen myself having,

I'm excited.

Like, I know who I am.

You know, it's been

a long process to,

like, accept myself,

and it was really f*cking scary.

And, you know, I'm grateful

for your support.

It was just nice to have

an outside person who, like,

I finally told to just say like,

"Hey, man, you're okay.

Like, you're going to be fine

if you do this."

To me, it was like,

it's so weird

because almost from the

beginning of our relationship,

it was, like,

a matter of fact.

Well, I wanted you

to know me.

It's also a fascinating part

of the story.

Like, you know, first off,

I find you by the video,

the TED Talk,

and I was like,

"Oh, my God. Like, it's--"

Here's somebody saying

nice things about "Chasing Amy"

in 2020.

Like, that's-- that's rare.

But then when we meet,

it's like,

this story is going on,

it's still developing,

and it's the story of your life.

And in an odd way, our life

stories have now intersected.

I feel lucky that that you've

given me so much of your time

and your friendship

and mentorship,

whatever the f*ck this is, like,

I'm just grateful for that.

Are you kidding me?

As a story teller,

to have somebody talk

about the deep impact

that something you created made

on their life and stuff--

it was just confirmation

that you don't get

very often in life.

It was the gift of self back.

The first time we ever talked,

you were like,

"You can never bother me."

And you explicitly said

that to me.

And while I sometimes feel

like I am bothering you

just by virtue

of I know that you're busy,

I do appreciate everything

that you've given me, too.

You've been there for me

before you were there for me.

It's not just "Chasing Amy"

at this point.

I gained a friend.

It's me paying you back.

It's not vice versa.

Don't you get it?

Like f*cking that--

What you did, how do I pay

that f*cking back?

You gave me my movie back.

-Are you eating a sandwich?

-Yes.

Thank you for making

this sandwich, Mom.

(LAUGHS)

Provided by your mother.

RODGERS:

I don't know what I learned

from this whole thing.

I'm a fundamentally different

person now.

Like, I feel guilty

about the TED Talk sometimes

because I feel like

you think it's,

like, Exhibit "A" of, like,

what you call bad parenting.

And I'm like, "You're the hero

in that f*cking story."

Like, you are.

I knew that if I told you

everything,

every f*cked up thing

that people did,

I would have to acknowledge that

those things were happening.

I think it was, like,

an internalized way of, like,

"I don't want my mom to know

I'm such a loser."

Like, that wasn't, like,

my thought process--

-Oh, Sav!

-What?

Oh, you're breaking

my f*cking heart, kid.

I mean, but, like--

the fact that

you let me watch cool movies

was, like,

the bit of solace I had

when I was fundamentally

unable to communicate

any of these things to anybody.

That's good.

The hardest thing about

being a parent

is watching your child...

hurt and not being able

to fix it.

I just made so many choices

that were absolutely

the wrong choice,

not just for you, but for me,

you know, for us.

But I mean, I think

you are absolutely

the hero of of the story.

I know it's hard on you

sometimes, kid, but...

you're the one.

And a lot of things

could have been better for you,

you know, that I just

didn't really know about.

I didn't know about it either.

(LAUGHS)

I couldn't even Google

trans stuff

because I was afraid

it would make it real.

Couldn't even tell--

I couldn't tell you.

I couldn't tell Riley.

I was worried Riley

would leave me.

She liked very feminine girls.

I was never a girl.

(CHILDREN SHOUTING)

(INDISTINCT CONVERSATION)

-Ready?

-No.

Let's talk about the fact

that you still call yourself

a l*sbian, despite

being married to a man.

Very Alyssa of you.

Can you talk about the weight

of other people's opinions

on how you identify yourself?

It was a journey because,

you know, it all came to happen

when I was starting

to live my life,

you know, more freely as, like,

an out and proud q*eer person.

So I did start feeling

a little bit conflicted,

but I think that's why

"Chasing Amy" was so important

to me,

because it made me realize

how labels were

really not important.

And I remember, like, the impact

that Alyssa monologue had on me,

and I was like,

"She knows."

I feel justified

lying in your arms...

because I got here

on my own terms.

As empowering as it is

to have a label for yourself...

And I have no question there

was someplace I didn't look.

...I don't have to

explain myself to anybody.

So in the end,

all that matters to me is you.

Because this is my husband,

and this is the love of my life.

Did you ever consider leaving

me when I came out as trans?

No, because we had

been together for so long

and we had been friends

for even longer.

Life without you

was not an option.

What happened to me

in that moment

was that I just kind of started

freaking out about like,

"What am I going

to tell people?

Because I was just going around

yelling, 'I'm a l*sbian,'

Now I'm with a man."

And then I was like,

"Well, you know what?

This is nobody's business

but mine."

I love you,

and I'm attracted to you.

Just be in love

and just honestly--

just celebrate the fact

that Sav...

can finally be happy

and live his truth.

-Good answer.

-RILEY: Yeah.

I think it's your turn

to ask me some questions.

So...

The Joey interview.

Yeah, the Joey interview.

RILEY:

What were you thinking?

RODGERS:

The interview with Joey

was definitely a turning point.

I learned a lot that day.

I'm sure it's much worse

for Joey, having "Chasing Amy"

be her most well-known movie

when she has

all of these negative feelings

associated with it

than it was for me to sit there

and have to grow up real fast

and to realign

my expectations.

I don't need "Chasing Amy"

the way that I used to,

and I shouldn't.

It was a life raft

when I needed it.

And now...

Now I have new dreams.

WOMAN 3:

This is "I Love You,

Margot Robbie,"

written by Sav Rodgers

and Taylor Gates.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

Are you actually

the real Margot Robbie?

If I'm not, I paid way too much

for the sign.

(LAUGHTER)

RODGERS:

Got married.

RODGERS:

Moved multiple times.

Uh, pugs, excuse me.

(RILEY LAUGHS)

RILEY:

We moved to Vegas.

Moved out of your

parents' basement.

-RODGERS: Mm-hmm.

-RILEY: How are you liking that?

RODGERS:

I like living with you great.

You are my favorite roommate

I've ever had.

I've been making a documentary

that forces me to be reflexive

on the nature of my identity

and be in a pretty

vulnerable state

several hours out of the day.

It's not the movie

I set out to make,

but it's the movie we have.

What would you say you are

the most proud of?

I'm proud

that I followed through.

This was really hard.

All of it.

Boy from Kansas

with few connections

gets the chance

to tell a story,

connect with the guy that made

him want to become a filmmaker,

and in the process of trying to

tell this very specific story,

all of his dreams come true.

(INDISTINCT CONVERSATION)

I mean, I've gotten everything

I think I've wanted out of this.

-Yeah.

-RODGERS: Have I thoroughly--

I think you got

some new sh*t.

RODGERS:

Have I thoroughly asked you

enough questions

that are not your typical

"Chasing Amy" fanfare?

Yeah. Yeah.

RODGERS:

Is that--

Is that a good thing?

JOEY:

It's a great thing.

Like, I think that, like,

I just didn't have

another bullshit

-"Chasing Amy" interview in me.

-RODGERS: Thank God.

-You know?

-Yeah.

RODGERS:

And he gets to leave this part

of his life where it is.

I just feel lucky.

I feel lucky to have you.

I mean, I don't know

where I'd be without you.

This one time, you said,

you know,

"You're making a love letter

to Kevin Smith," or whatever,

but like,

you're the only person

I want to write

a love letter to.

If this movie doesn't say it,

let me just say it explicitly.

Like,

you are everything to me.

I don't need

"Chasing Amy" anymore

because I have something real

to attach myself to,

and that's you.

I...

will forever be better off...

because of what

you've been to me.

And I don't mean

to paraphrase Holden there, so.

(CHUCKLES)

Thank you.

Thank you.

After you.

(RODGERS CHUCKLES)

Asleep in electric beds

Counting all our sheep

But the sky

up above our heads

It opened up

A note from a stranger read

You had to give

into the things

That stand before you

And still the distance

from your house

To my front door

It's exactly the same

()

You said it's terminal

The way I clean my sheets

Such a poetic phrasing

Don't you know

it's wasted here

()

()

Ba-ba-ba ba-ba ba-ba-ba

Ba-ba-ba ba-ba ba-ba-ba

Ba-ba-ba ba-ba ba-ba-ba

Ba ba-da-da

Ba ba da

And on the 4th of July

We both looked to the sky

And watched the stars

exploding

All around our heads

And on the 4th of July

We both looked to the sky

And watched the stars

exploding

All around our heads

And still the distance

from your house

To my front door

Well, don't you know it's

It's exactly the same