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01x03 - To Defend a k*ller

Episode transcripts for the TV show, "Mastermind: To Think Like a k*ller". Aired: July 11, 2024.*
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Series explores the career of Ann Burgess, looking into her widely known and lesser-known cases.

01x03 - To Defend a k*ller

Post by bunniefuu »

Police are hunting a

mass m*rder*r believed

to have k*lled as many

as 21 prostit*tes.

Police have been trying to find

a man they call the

Green River k*ller.

We knew that we, at that time, had

a serial m*rder*r on our hands.

In the late '80s, there was

a new breed of serial k*ller.

It wasn't until last March

that investigators

began linking the cases

as the so-called

Happy Face k*ller.

These were K*llers that

were more sophisticated.

They were contacting the media.

The man who calls

himself the BTK k*ller

Letters claiming responsibility

were sent by a man who

referred to himself

by the initials BTK.

We were looking at

males and females

that might be

m*rder*d, and children.

They're not k*lling

for the same reasons

that the early serial

K*llers that we studied were.

Behavioral Science, Ressler.

The word got out that

we were doing profiling.

We were just

besieged with cases.

Approximately 300-a-year profile

requests are coming in now.

They are coming in faster

than we really can manage it.

We were somewhat limited 'cause

we didn't have a lot of profilers.

A string of disappearances,

r*pes, and murders

Cases weren't being looked at.

They were just being

put on a shelf.

It's so dangerous. I mean, these

are people that are k*lling.

We should be doing a better job.

In the late '80s,

one of the things

that the team realized

was that, to a degree, they had

built profiling for themselves.

Dr. Burgess wanted

to advance profiling

so that it could be this tool

that was really applicable

to law enforcement as a whole.

European attendees asking

for additional information

We wanted to train law

enforcement to use this tool.

We had to publish.

With Ann's input, I can see a

publication taking place here

that would be used within

law enforcement circles.

I hoped this research

would make a difference.

The obsessions, the fantasies.

I would not allow myself to

walk into even a potential trap.

I keep craving something

which is harder and harder.

The organized, disorganized

Two separate personality types.

Somebody wants

somebody bad enough,

it's nearly impossible

to prevent it.

To try to chunk down

that whole process

by studying the people

that are doing it.

The classification based on

what they did at the scene,

more likely to live alone, live

near the scene of the crime.

You're dealing with a guy who is

not your introverted, weird loner.

A good number of

these individuals are

in the bright, very

superior group.

All of that material

was published

in an academic book

called Sexual Homicide.

For me and for the

whole team, it was huge.

Huge breakthrough.

We're teaching in courses

all over the country,

information that has come

from our efforts thus far.

The program started

to really expand.

There are now 29 known victims

of the Green River k*ller.

The local police turned

to a special FBI unit

for help with the case

FBI was notoriously

a one-way street.

We don't give you anything.

And then the Behavioral

Science Unit comes along,

and all of a sudden they're

not only gathering information,

but they're coming back to

you to help solve crimes.

We have used the

Behavioral Sciences Unit

that the FBI has established

at Quantico, Virginia.

It's really a teamwork,

but profiling has become

a key tool for law enforcement.

The information helped law

enforcement investigate

these crimes and catch K*llers.

Authorities arrested

59-year-old Dennis Rader

for BTK's eight murders.

The arrest of one

of the country's

most prolific serial K*llers.

Keith Jesperson says he wants

to make a full

confession for his crimes

as the so-called

Happy Face k*ller.

Green River k*ller

Gary Ridgway confessed

to k*lling 48 women.

I think there's

not any doubt, uh,

that there probably

would've been more.

So, good work by

all these agencies.

For the first time, we

had a profiler working

in almost every state,

and we were clearing more

cases than we ever had before.

Robert Ressler has made a career

out of tracking and apprehending

some of our nation's most

violent serial K*llers.

He was a consultant on the book

which was the basis for the

movie Silence of the Lambs.

What I wanted to ask you

about first was the movie.

- Did you like it?

- I thought it was a tremendous movie.

In the movie, Douglas was

played by actor Scott Glenn.

- Good morning.

- Morning, Mr. Crawford.

Douglas and Ressler were

quick to write their books,

and they were quick

to consult on TV shows

and to share their story

in whatever ways possible.

Really to do the job effectively,

you really have to

He inspired TV shows

It was interesting

talking with Ann

about why her story

had remained hidden.

She didn't really wanna take on

the sort of cultural mystique

like a bunch of the other

agents had wanted to.

She always had a

behind-the-curtain quality,

partly because of her own style

of being not particularly

self-promoting.

Dr. Burgess has

been doing this work

with the BSU for

over a decade now,

and she's starting to rethink

how she can best

continue her pursuit

of being in service to victims.

Most of the agents that I

had worked with had retired.

I wanted to move on. I

was ready to move on.

It just seemed the

right thing to do.

Oh, the turkeys are here.

I've gotta feed 'em.

I felt it was the right time

but I didn't know what

I was gonna do next.

I had my own career,

certainly, in nursing,

so that was all going on.

As an academic, I had

to be into new areas,

write grants, get published.

She has expressed that

it felt a little like,

let me step back

take a breath,

examine my surroundings

and see in what other way

can I put this work to use.

One day, a defense

attorney called me

and asked me if I had

heard about this case

out of Los Angeles.

And I had not.

And so, he tells me to go

down to the local store

and pick up a copy

of People magazine.

And I said, "Oh,

this is now gonna be my

reading material on cases?"

I've heard of very few murders

that were more savage

than this one was.

No signs of a break-in

or a burglary.

Only the bodies of entertainment

executive Jose Menéndez

and his wife Kitty in

the family TV room.

Jose Menéndez was

shot five times,

a fatal wound through the back

of the head into the brain.

His wife Kitty was

unrecognizable.

Four separate shots

in the head and face,

six in her arms,

chest, hips, legs.

Their sons, Erik and Lyle,

said they found the bodies,

but new evidence ranging from

records of the family psychologist

to a movie script about a

rich kid who kills his parents

now indicates the

brothers did it.

They k*lled their

wealthy parents.

Lyle and Erik Menéndez

were arraigned yesterday

on charges they

m*rder*d their parents

to inherit a $14 million estate.

It was a high-profile case,

and I had never done

a defense case before.

The prosecution saying this

was for money wasn't adding up.

There had to be something else,

so I agreed to go out,

at least to meet with them.

When I met with Erik,

that was the first time

that I was actually in

the room with a k*ller.

I'm looking at somebody that

k*lled his mother and his father.

He was likable.

I mean, we could talk

about sports and tennis

and, you know, everything

except the crime.

I needed to know

exactly what happened

and also to understand

why they did it.

I was wondering how he was gonna

be able to talk about it

and that's what I decided

to use the drawings,

because that would give

him something concrete

to be able to focus on.

He wouldn't have to be

looking directly at me

to talk about the situation.

We spent a whole

day on the drawings.

This is the very first one

that really gave me an inkling

of heart of the motive.

The father looking very large,

compared to this

little teeny Erik.

Erik wanted to go

away to college

and the father said,

"No, you're not going to.

"You're gonna come home.

I want you home during

the week to sleep here."

It gave me an idea of how

controlling the father was.

That was the start of

the week that escalated.

Something happened that

really set into motion

that they had no other choice

but to shotgun their parents.

Based on the father, a

very domineering person,

I felt there's some

abuse issue here.

It could have been

psychological,

it could have been physical.

There are a lot of

these drawings that

the father and the son

are in Erik's bedroom,

which I thought was

a very unusual place.

I used that as a way to say,

"What are the other kinds of

things maybe that you could tell me

that went on in the bedroom?"

You could see how hard it

was for him to get it out.

I knew it then, this

was sexual abuse,

which in itself is very

difficult, but also was incest.

He was somewhat stoic

about it. It happened.

The two brothers

were very bonded,

very, very caring of each other.

Erik tells his older brother

about the sexual as*ault.

He told me Lyle

was abused early,

but the father had a

preference for young boys.

That's why Erik became

the next victim.

The mother didn't

protect her sons.

The abuse had now been exposed.

Lyle confronts the father.

The father was an executive

in the music industry.

An incest secret coming

out would have ruined Jose,

no question about it.

The father was threatening them.

You could just see

them talking about

how fearful they were then,

and they felt that the parents

were going to k*ll them.

They were frantic.

They felt it was imminent

that something was

gonna happen to them

so they had to act Sunday night.

They k*lled their parents.

Absolutely no matter what

the circumstances are,

that's still wrong,

but they certainly were abused.

I could sympathize with what

they had to put up with.

And so, I decided to

testify for the defense.

One of the things that people

always wonder about too is

how Ann could start

working for the defense

when she switched

over to trial cases.

Right off the bat, she was

challenged by fellow agents.

A lot of them said, "Why are you

standing up for the bad guys?"

John Douglas came

up to her and said,

"You're making

the wrong choice."

Agents always testify

for prosecution.

So when he heard I was

gonna be on defense

on the case that I was on,

I would say he was not happy.

The Menéndez case could

ruin her reputation.

People could say, "This woman

who was always for the good guys,

she's lost her way."

To me, it was important in

terms of getting the truth out

about trauma and abuse.

This colleague of

hers came up and said,

"You can't defend these boys.

"If you do, other boys

might start coming forward

and talking about their

sexual abuse, too."

And she was like, "Yeah,

that's the point."

This is the right thing to do.

A sensational m*rder trial

opened today in California.

The defendants: two brothers.

The victims: their parents.

Their defense: self-defense.

Legally, neither Lyle

nor Erik Menéndez

can be found innocent.

They admit they

k*lled their parents,

only their motives were

at issue in the trial.

Jurors will have to decide

whether they were motivated

by fear for their own

lives or by greed.

If convicted of

involuntary manslaughter,

they could go free

with time served.

If convicted of

first-degree m*rder,

it could mean the death penalty.

In the trial of people

versus Erik Menéndez.

The defense may call

its next witness.

Thank you, Your Honor. The

defense calls Dr. Ann Burgess.

You do solemnly swear that the

testimony will be the truth,

the whole truth, and

nothing but the truth,

- so help you God?

- I do.

Please take the stand

and state your name

I knew it was gonna

be an uphill battle.

This was not an easy case.

Ann Wolbert Burgess.

Before this, there had

been defenses built

around victims, abuse, and fear,

but it had only

been used with wives

who k*lled their husbands.

It had never been used with

a male victim in the past.

She knew that it

was a long shot.

After your 50 hours of the

interview with Erik Menéndez,

did you formulate an

opinion as to whether or not

he was sexually

molested as a child?

- Yes, I did.

- And what is that opinion?

And my opinion was that he was.

Literature suggests that

it is more difficult,

particularly for

an adolescent boy,

to admit a same-sex molestation.

Yes, it's much harder for

an adolescent male. Yes.

That seems to be related to the

mythology of male sexuality.

There is this belief that

males, regardless of age,

are supposed to

be able to manage

and to perhaps even enjoy

any type of sexual activity

and that they

should not complain.

Dealing with that last week

leading up to the shootings,

have you determined

critical factors

that contributed to the occurrence

of the shootings in this case?

Yes, I have.

Erik's father's insistence that

he continue to live at home,

which Erik understands to mean that

the sexual abuse would continue.

Erik's disclosure of his

sexual abuse to Lyle.

Lyle's confrontation

with the father,

prompting the father's threat

to protect the

secret at all costs.

The father always

said one of the things

that he could do is

just wipe out the family

and get a new one and

start all over again.

Now, by wipe out,

he wasn't talking about

k*lling them, was he?

Or was he?

Well, I don't think that,

uh, that was ever made clear.

Because the Menéndez trial has

been available live on Court TV,

millions of Americans

have watched it,

finding a live drama

every bit as riveting

as any soap opera.

Expert witness claims

the brothers were

so traumatized by

years of alleged abuse,

it actually changed the gray

matter inside their head.

That's not my favorite thing

to do, is to go into court,

because all they wanna

do is discredit you.

The cross-exam can

really be vicious.

Prosecutor Pam Bozanich implied

the brain change theory

was about as credible

as the research of

Dr. Frankenstein.

Dr. Burgess, could

you tell the jury

what suggestibility is?

Suggestibility is a concept

that says very young children

in the questioning by therapists

in some way conduct

their interview

so as to suggest to the

child, uh, a response.

Dr. Burgess, do you know

what psychobabble is?

Well, my reaction to that

was, um, she doesn't get it.

She's never gonna get it.

And I really felt that there

were b*ll*ts coming at me,

not only from the prosecutor,

but certainly in

the public arena.

That was hard.

There's no evidence that

supports the abuse excuse.

All they have are doctors

who listen to their story

and basically say,

"We believe them."

How was the jury

manipulated in this case?

It's vigilante defense.

I'm sympathetic with the

battered women's syndrome

in the real cases where

there's no option to leave,

but when it's extended to apply

to young, mobile, wealthy men

like the Menéndez brothers,

raises grave dangers to the

liberty of all Americans.

It'd break me.

My dad had been molesting me.

"You see, my father r*ped me."

I never believed any

of the other tears.

I think what you're seeing here

is a, uh, couple of spoiled brats.

Can you tell the court who

did m*rder your parents?

Our other two brothers,

Danny Menéndez and

Jose Menéndez Jr.

Lyle and Erik Menéndez

have told horrific

stories of parental abuse,

which makes them either

victims or calculating liars.

The public had wanted to

see the Menéndez brothers

as cold-blooded K*llers,

but in spite of

the media pushback,

Dr. Burgess coming

into the courtroom

and talking about abuse

had cracked something open.

And just as she's done

throughout her entire career,

the narrative around

trauma started to shift.

It's a real interesting trial,

and I, I want them

to be acquitted.

If they were convicted, I'd like to see

what, what their side of the story is.

I got a lot of support

from other victims,

people who never had talked

about anything before.

And so, it certainly

gave this segment

of our population a voice

that I-I felt good about.

You may find Erik and Lyle

Menéndez to be manipulative.

You may decide that

they are credible

and that their story

strikes a sympathetic chord.

You can reach your own

verdict about them.

The court did receive

a note this morning

from the jury.

It states, uh, "We regret

to inform the court"

"that we are unable to come

to a unanimous decision

on any of the three counts."

We got a hung jury,

which I was pleased with.

We had at least put enough

doubt into the jury.

I believe that they were

raised in an a*usive household.

I don't believe Jose and Kitty

were planning on k*lling

them that night at all,

but I do believe Lyle

and Erik believed that.

And that's the difference.

Her testimony had a huge

impact on the Menéndez case.

Going into it, the media

basically dismissed any chance

that these brothers

had of being acquitted.

But the case wasn't over.

The second trial,

I didn't testify

because the judge would not

allow any experts on abuse.

Well, I-I was shocked.

It has been hell.

Our whole theory of the defense,

which was a theory of self-defense,

imperfect self-defense,

he refused to instruct on it.

The jury hadn't been allowed to

hear the full truth of this story.

The impact was huge.

Yesterday, a Los Angeles jury

found the brothers guilty

of first-degree m*rder

for k*lling their parents.

Life without parole.

I felt sad for them.

And I still feel that life

without the opportunity

for parole is wrong.

This isn't something

they were gonna do again.

They're not serial K*llers.

What we did it was awful,

um, and I wish I could go back.

We will spend the rest

of our life in prison,

but if I'm not if I'm not

if we're not put

in the same prison,

uh, there's a good probability

I will never see him again.

And and that, uh

that I

Some things that you cannot take

and there's some things

that you can endure.

Uh

with everything taken

away, it would be the last,

you know, it's the last

thing you can take.

I think that when you take away

any type of hope from someone,

I feel that's wrong.

We heard the word

"Menéndez" more

than we heard other cases.

I found it interesting

that my mom was working

on such a public case.

There's always been a bit of

her that does wanna stay private

and keep to her

uh, keep to herself.

But this was a situation

where she saw things

in a different light

than everybody else.

Dr. Burgess wasn't interested

in being this

spokesperson for her work.

Working trial

cases changed that.

Her big takeaway with the Menéndez

case was that she could get people

to think differently

about sexual trauma,

to change how people were

thinking about victims.

Ann Burgess is a professor

of psychiatric nursing

at the University

of Pennsylvania.

She realized if

she really wanted

to be an advocate for victims,

she had to step

out of the shadows.

When we talk with

battered women,

one of the things that we

notice is that it depends

on the type of violence.

Become more of a

public personality

and use that as a platform to

leverage her work, her voice,

and to leverage

victims' voices as well.

I felt I had the opportunity

to influence a system.

I felt that that

was so important,

so no matter what I had to

put up with, it was worth it.

I decided I was

going to accept cases

where I felt that I

can make a difference.

I flew to Boston to

meet with Dr. Burgess.

I didn't know a whole

lot about her

and at the time, no

one was listening.

No one wanted to know

about America's Dad.

There was no bringing

down Bill Cosby.

Ladies and gentlemen,

Bill Cosby.

Dentists tell you not

to pick your teeth,

then you sit in their chair.

You know, Jell-O

Pudding Pops is a winner

- with all the soapbox racers I know.

- It is?

- Yeah, sure.

- Few minor adjustments.

Bill Cosby has

entertained millions

around the world while serving

as an inspiration to all.

I had seen his TV shows.

I mean, everybody

knew Bill Cosby.

I was a nobody, and

he was a somebody.

People are gonna believe him.

They're not going to believe

the sexual as*ault victim.

Being believed

really will determine

how the survivor

will ultimately heal.

I don't know whether this is true.

You don't know whether this is true.

It's difficult to decide.

Do we even give a voice

to allegations like this?

Cosby's attorney called

the case "nonsense"

and labeled his accuser,

Andrea Constand, a con artist.

District attorney has decided

not to charge Mr. Cosby

and says he finds insufficient

credible evidence.

Mr. Cosby looks forward to

moving on with his life.

A victim that comes

forward to report,

only 1% to 2% are

gonna see justice.

The criminal case was denied,

so a civil case was the only

shot at justice that I had.

All the odds were

stacked up against me,

and that's ultimately how

I came to meet Dr. Burgess.

"He said she said" are

very difficult cases.

I was glad I-I was called on it.

We didn't have any r*pe

kit or forensic evidence,

so in that respect,

it just was her word.

We were up against

a lot of skepticism.

It was very important

to get the details.

She had a job to do.

It was to try to pull

things from my memory.

Explain in your own

words what happened.

I was the director of

basketball operations

at Temple University.

I knew who Bill Cosby was.

I knew he was a pretty

important man on campus.

I didn't have a reason to

be scared of Bill Cosby.

After having a friendship

with him for almost 18 months,

he invited me over to his home

to talk about making

a career change.

He was like, "You seem

really stressed about that."

And I said, "Yeah, you know, I

probably haven't slept a whole lot."

He just randomly got up, excused

himself from the table

and he came down the stairs,

and he had three small

blue pills in his hand.

And he said, "Take these.

They'll help take the edge off."

After about a half an hour,

I started to see two Bill

Cosbys across the table from me.

And he said, "Well, you

probably just need to lay down.

You just need to have a sleep."

Those were the last

words that I remember.

She couldn't remember

anything more.

This was not gonna be easy.

We have a lot of missing

pieces, so I have to think,

"Is that anything

that we can recover?"

Those are the kinds of questions

that you try to get into

and have her remember

as much as she could.

Even though you can't remember,

doesn't mean that

it doesn't register.

You have to move to a different

part of understanding memory

because it does

register, you know?

It does register, even

if you're unconscious.

The body keeps score.

I remember passing

out, waking up.

I could feel that he

had unzipped my pants.

I was completely paralyzed

and was not able to scream.

It was the most horrifying

thing in the world.

I had seen this technique used

before, especially with children.

They would give them drugs

'cause then they could always

say, "Well, you-you dreamt it.

This didn't really happen."

I give tests to document

the trauma that she had

and back it up with some

kind of scientific evidence.

What were you like

before this happened?

How often does this

come into your mind?

Do you have any anxiety?

Are you snappy? More irritated?

How is your sleep?

She thought, "Well, I'll get over

this," but then it got worse and worse.

Couldn't stay at the job.

She had to go back and

live with her parents.

She broke up with her partner.

I felt that she had, by

this time, chronic PTSD.

Getting asked 300 questions

about the way you're sleeping,

eating, living, loving,

I was able to understand

what that one night

had done to me.

The fact that I was

hearing myself actually say

what happened to me

and acknowledge that

I survived a trauma,

that was really critical.

She believed me.

I don't think there's

any financial amount

that a person can walk away from

to just automatically

make everything better.

I was just happy

that I could move on

because I really

did wanna move on.

I really did wanna

put it behind me.

This case, certainly for me,

was one way to kind of go

back to where we had started.

We're now talking almost 30

years from when Lynda Holmstrom

and I started our r*pe study.

When she started doing her work,

there wasn't a culture of

wanting to hold men accountable

for their wrongdoings

against women.

This girl is not

the r*pe victim,

but according to the judge, the

way she's dressed illustrates

another reason that

boys r*pe girls.

There had been a lot

of changes for women.

r*pe crisis center,

women in the workplace.

There was a cultural shift.

But we knew it wasn't enough.

Sometimes you think you

haven't made any progress,

but that's why it's

important to keep fighting.

Time's up! Time's up!

Time's up! Time's up!

Time's up! Time's

up! Time's up!

Dr. Burgess' work are

those early ripples

that led to the Me Too Movement.

The story doesn't center

around Dr. Burgess,

but she's a huge

part of that story.

Hey hey, h* h*

I'm just glad that

she's been able to see

some of the fruits of her labor.

This is what Dr. Burgess

had been fighting for all along.

Finally, the culture was

ready to believe victims.

Me too.

- Me too!

- Me too!

Women who had been traumatized

and victimized years before

were starting to come forward.

- It happened to me too.

- Me too.

It happened to me too.

Their stories

flooded social media

and painted a picture

of just how many people

endure sexual abuse and

harassment every day.

The Me Too Movement gave

women an opportunity

to be in control, to be

able to say, "This

We-We aren't gonna

put up with this."

I was really so

proud of the women

for coming forward

and demanding justice.

It was amazing.

And then, because of

the Me Too Movement,

there's one more part

to the Cosby case.

A flood of

allegations from women

who say they were sexually

assaulted by Cosby.

I couldn't believe

it. He had drugged me.

Waking up in a bed

with Mr. Cosby, naked.

Mr. Cosby is charged with

aggravated indecent as*ault.

When Me Too happened,

that's what it took.

Mr. Cosby, did you

drug that woman?

I never expected that I

would get an opportunity

to face my ab*ser in court.

Thirteen years after an

alleged sexual as*ault,

Andrea Constand walked

into a packed courtroom

to publicly tell her story.

She went in there and did

a beautiful job testifying.

There has been a verdict.

The comedian, now 80, has been

found guilty on all counts.

It was a miracle

to see the justice system

working for survivors.

The culture had really changed.

In, um, 1970, I don't think

you'd get a conviction

against Bill Cosby.

Andrea's case was very

important in being able

to identify a high-profile

person and get justice.

There's a handful of people

who played a big part

in my "surviving"

and Dr. Burgess is

one of those people.

I'm trying to think

of how it all started.

I can remember vividly in, uh

on the serial k*ller study,

which was generally

The stuff that my mom's

done is so helpful

that we'd love to see

the work continue.

I think she'd be more than happy

if someone would

pick up the torch.

First couple topics are

ones that are most prominent

in their manifestos.

I'm working with

my granddaughter

to study the manifestos

of mass shooters.

Machine learning can find

associations between words

and patterns and phrases.

We can't get her enough data.

She says, "Send me

data." She loves that.

That might be something that,

that would be of interest.

I believe that there is

a parallel universe somewhere

where Dr. Burgess was never

invited to speak at the FBI,

and it is a scary world.

Profiling, victimology,

behavioral psychology,

she had this really

formative role

in all these different realms,

and it really shifted

how the FBI functioned

as an organization.

Where other people

just saw craziness,

she saw early on that

there were patterns.

She said, "We've got

significant data."

All of a sudden, that

turns into something

that we can make sense of it.

There was no blueprint, and

she created the blueprint.

We would like to look at the

cases that have been profiled

to see whether, you know

She's had to overcome

the prejudice

that male agents had,

but she was always

gonna have the last word

on criminal behavior

because she knew more

than anybody in the room.

The impact of

victimization on the family

and the community so that

Making things

better for victims,

for survivors going

through the legal system.

And she's spent her whole career

breaking the barriers down.

Simonis, without

hesitation, pleaded guilty

to all charges against him.

John Joubert was

arrested tonight

by the task force.

The FBI is charging

28-year-old Brian Dugan

with the kidnap and m*rder

of Melissa Ackerman.

It is time for

people to recognize

there is not an aspect of

modern criminal psychology

that has not been

significantly impacted

by Dr. Burgess' work

and it does matter

that people know that.

A lot. I don't know.

Oh, over a dozen. Yeah.

To give you an idea

of what we're trying

to do on campus from

academic nursing.

There were a lot of native women

that were, um, m*rder*d in

- A lot. Oh, yes.

- Yeah.

We-We have a database

now of over 3,000 people.

It's a little bit different

because we are hearing

from an actual person

who has lost someone

and who it is an unsolved case.

Where are we at with our data?

'Cause we do need to

talk about drafting

or at least getting the

outline for a paper.

There's always some

more work to do.

No time to celebrate.

No. Keep going.