01x03 - Comeuppance

[bunniefuu]

[soft music]

[Reporter] Saddleworth Moor
became indelibly linked

with crimes which
repulsed post-w*r Britain.

Volunteers searched for
the bodies of children,

m*rder*d and then buried by Hindley

and her lover, Ian Brady.

[David Swindle] Seeing
the pictures of the two

that were involved in
k*lling these children,

it struck fear into me.

♪ Blood is on my hands ♪

[David Swindle] His
eyes, he has evil eyes.

♪ So I understand ♪

[Nicola] The victims
would beg to be freed.

He was absolutely possessed

by a need to create pain.

He was always going to k*ll.

[David Swindle] I have never
been able to understand why

a human being takes the life of another.

[Mark Pettigrew] The
misconception of Brady is that

he is evil, but Ian Brady was ill.

[Peter] If you're looking
for deep psychiatric reasons,

no one has yet come up with them,

and that's one of the horrifying paradoxes

of the whole case.

[Nicola] Brady's crimes
are a window into his mind.

♪ Blood is on my hands ♪

[Peter] None of this explains why

he goes to the heart of darkness.

[Man] I wouldn't call him a man.

I wouldn't, no.

A monster.

[Nicola] When it comes to Ian Brady,

genetics loaded the g*n,
his personality aimed it,

and Myra pulled the trigger.

♪ I'm the violent kind ♪

[Reporter] Do you think
the papers ought to publish

such full accounts of
the Moors m*rder trial?

As it's such a horrible thing

it shouldn't be publicised
to such a great extent

until after the actual trial, you know?

Well, I think they just
interest people in reading

more or less pornographic literature,

that's the bad, bad effect.

On the good side it does show that

shocking things are going on.

[gentle music]

Really evil, he was.

That friend of his reported it
- He rang the police,

didn't he?

Yeah, in the end, yeah.

'Cause it were going on too much.

How many was it, about 13.

And he was gonna k*ll that poor lad

who was a h*m*, he k*lled him.

And the other lad saw it, didn't he?

- That's what-
- David.

- Yeah.
- David.

- That's it.
- Hey, believe me,

I sold him a bed.

Did you?

Bed mad, me.

[both laughing]

There you are, you see.

Sold him my bed, yeah.

[gentle music]

Fantastic security
precautions have been taken

and the precincts of the court

have been very widely defined.

Before you can get into the court,

you have to produce no
less than three passes

if you're a mere journalist.

The dock, semicircular with a shield of

half inch thick plate glass behind it,

the two accused were put up in the dock.

Brady, wearing a light
grey suit and a blue tie.

Hindley wearing a sort of
grey pepper and salt costume

and a light blue open neck shirt.

[camera clicks]

If Ian hadn't got caught,
he would've carried on.

These were almost like
experiments for him.

He was trying different
methods, different age groups.

His crimes were a way to boost his own ego

and to show how powerful he was.

So he was needing to up
the ante with each one

to really build that ego and
to feed his audience as well.

[gentle music]

[David Swindle] In October, 1963,

Brady meets Maureen Hindley's
boyfriend, David Smith,

a local tearaway.

He'd been dragged up

and he ran loose on the
streets of Manchester

from a very early age.

There was no care and love in his life.

He was 16 when he married
Myra's sister Maureen,

and he married her
because she was pregnant,

but they did seem to make
some sort of a go of it.

And because of that, he met Ian Brady.

David lives with his
family at 9 Wells Street,

which is next door but one
to Pauline Reade's family.

[gentle music]

1964, Hindley and her gran move into

16 Wardle Brook Avenue, and
Brady moves in with them.

[gentle music]

Maureen Hindley was seven months pregnant,

and Hindley and Brady invite
them for a celebration.

[gentle music continues]

They spent a lot of time discussing

these brilliant bank
robberies and insurance heists

they were going to carry out,

and I think David Smith
was well up for that.

And I think Ian Brady, having
had relatively easy success

in getting another cult
member in Myra Hindley,

thought he could carry on

and get more people involved in this.

And David Smith was an obvious example.

He is given books to read by Brady

and he's asked to write
things out by Brady.

Myra Hindley says she used to go to bed

and leave Ian Brady and David
Smith together just talking.

He talked to David Smith about k*lling,

about the fact that they'd
buried bodies on the moor,

but I don't think David Smith

even really particularly believed him.

He just thought he was a fantasist.

They must have thought
if they drew David Smith

into the plot with them,

it would give them some kind of validity,

justification for what they were doing.

But I think that in itself illustrates

the madness that they succumbed to.

It's the madness of thinking,

what we're doing is normal and rational

and we'll get somebody
else to join in with it.

[dramatic music]

I think they wanted to
introduce him into the cult.

They wanted him to share in it,

and that was their fatal mistake.

[dramatic music continues]

Brady and Hindley are smartly
dressed for a night out,

and David watches them drive
off towards the city centre.

That evening, Brady goes
to the central station

and encounters 17-year-old Edward Evans.

Brady invites Edward back
to the house for a drink,

and he goes.

[tense music]

Ian Brady had hatched a
plan with his brother-in-law,

David Smith, a way to make money

so that Smith could make his
rent and wouldn't be evicted.

The plan was to go into
central Manchester,

lure a g*y man back to the
house at Wardle Brook Avenue,

then beat him and rob him.

They were predators and they
were discussing that fantasy.

But this one with Edward
was totally different.

We know that it was in this area

that Ian Brady met Edward Evans,

before Myra Hindley drove them
home to Wardle Brook Avenue.

After arriving at Wardle Brook Avenue,

Ian Brady poured Edward Evans a drink.

The plan was that

Myra would go and get her
brother-in-law, David Smith.

Upon returning to Wardle Brook Avenue,

Myra told her brother-in-law
to wait outside.

She would flash the lights on and off

when she wanted him to come in.

David Smith waited patiently,
and within due time,

the living room lights flashed on and off.

After following Hindley indoors,

David hears a scream and
rushes into the sitting room

and sees Brady striking
Edward with an axe.

[dramatic music]

Edward Evans is the kind
of forgotten Moors victim.

He's 17, he's physically
fully grown and he's a man,

so k*lling him is very
different from k*lling

a 10-year-old, 12-year-old child.

[gentle music]

After several blows with the hatchet,

Edward Evans was dead.

David sees that he's
k*lled him and is terrified

and he helps Brady and
Hindley clean up the house.

[Actors voice] Ian
looked at me and said,

"Give us a lift with this mess."

I was frightened and I did what he said,

and I helped to clean the mess up.

I was wiping the blood
off the walls and floor.

Myra came in with a white bedsheet

and a lot of pieces of polythene.

Then Myra and Ian laid the blanket, sheet,

and pieces of polythene out on the floor.

Then Ian told me to get hold
of the lad's legs, which I did,

and Ian got hold of the lad's shoulders.

We lifted him, and between us,

we carried the young lad
upstairs into Myra's bedroom.

[gentle music]

David Smith returned
home to his wife Maureen.

Upon his return home,
he was covered in blood.

[David] I couldn't get to sleep.

I kept thinking about the lad.

I got up after a bit and put
the light on, woke Maureen up,

and I told her I had something
terrible to tell her.

[Mark] Asking him what
happened, he told her.

[David] They've k*lled someone.

[Maureen] Who?

[David] Myra and Ian.
They've k*lled a lad.

[tense music]

Maureen didn't believe what
she was hearing at first,

but upon seeing how
shaken David Smith was,

seeing the blood on his clothes,

Maureen and David decided
to go to the police.

[tense music]

[David] I expected Ian and
Myra to be outside my flat

in their car waiting
for me to do something.

I was frightened of leaving the place.

It got to about six o'clock.

We decided it was the
best time to go about,

so I armed myself with a
carving knife and a screwdriver

in case I met Ian and Myra.

At sunrise, David and
Maureen telephone the police

from a nearby phone box.

[phone ringing]

I was in the CID at Hyde.

Hyde is the nearest town to Hattersley,

which was part of the
suburbs of Hyde itself.

I got to Hyde police station about,

just gone seven in the morning.

Bit busier than normal, it
wasn't a very big station.

And I said, "What's up?"

They said, "We've got a lad here that's,

he's in the parade room.

Says he's witnessed a m*rder last night."

David tells his story to the police

and detectives are
dispatched to the house.

David Smith's basic story was that

he had been called to his
sister-in-law's house,

and whilst there a man
had committed m*rder

of a young man whom he didn't know.

They were still there and
they had gone to their house.

[tense music]

A policeman, dressed up
as a bread delivery man,

knocked on the door of
Wardle Brook Avenue.

Myra Hindley instantly
opened the door and said,

"You've got the wrong
house, we have Sunblest."

At which point Myra was pushed aside

and the police entered the house.

[tense music]

We went upstairs and in
the bedroom we found the

trussed up body of Edward Evans.

He was in a foetal position,
tied up in a plastic bag,

covered with some clothes.

[tense music]

Brady was arrested but
Hindley remained free,

although she was interviewed
at the police station.

[suspenseful music]

He was charged with the
m*rder of Edward Evans.

When Smith had initially been interviewed,

he had mentioned that Brady and Hindley

used to frequent Manchester.

"Where about at Manchester
did they frequent?"

"Various places."

And then he mentioned that they
did go to railway stations.

Smith had said that Brady had
put stuff in, had to be found.

Initially asked Manchester city police

to search the left luggage
offices and found the suitcases.

[tense music]

We opened them up, they
were full of audio tapes

and hundreds of photos.

And I found a photograph of a little girl

and she had a scarf tied
round about her mouth

and she was naked.

At that time, there were
a number of children

who were missing.

And certainly in the Manchester area,

and I think all over the country,

there was no national record kept

of people who were missing from home.

One of the people who were missing

was a lad called John Kilbride.

He was from Ashton-under-Lyme.

He was missing.

A search of the moors was happening

but Lancs County were just
about to close an inquiry down,

their search of the moors down,

'cause they'd been all over
that area and found nothing.

They'd all just got on the
bus to leave the moors.

And there was one lad there,
a lad called Bob Spiers.

He saw what he thought was a
ball sticking out the ground.

Luck, chance, but like everything else,

you gotta be there to
gather your luck, to find.

And they searched that area
and that was the body of

Lesley Ann Downey.

[tense music]

Because we had found
the body of Lesley Ann,

there was a photograph of Lesley Ann,

there was a tape recording of Lesley Ann.

It fell upon a lad called Mike Masheder,

who at the time was a
photographer in scenes of crime

at Ashton-under-Lyme.

He looked at some of the photographs

and there is a particular
photograph of Myra Hindley

with a dog.

And when you look at the photograph,

the first instance you think,
she's looking at the dog.

If you look at it closely,
she's not looking at the dog.

She, in actual fact, is looking
at the area beyond the dogs.

They were able to find the spot

where this photograph was taken,

and found the body of John Kilbride.

[dramatic music]

[tense music]

[Carol] You remember when Ian Brady?

[Susan] Yeah.

[Carol] I've only heard
his name on the murders.

- On the radio.
- On the case, on the case.

Yeah.
- Television and that.

Yeah.

So what year would that have been?

I think it was, I
only heard about in '63

when it was all going on in Hattersley.

And it was Wardle Brook Avenue.

- Right.
- We only heard about it

when that lad ran for the
police, and then it all came out,

about Brady and her, her and Brady.

[tense music]

[Reporter] In April, 1966,

in court two of the Chester Assizes,

Ian Brady fought for his liberty

in the face of three m*rder charges.

Hindley and Brady appeared
at Chester Assizes court.

Ian Brady charged with three murders,

Myra Hindley charged with two,

and for assisting an offender.

After he was arrested
and was awaiting trial,

a very prominent psychiatrist
called Lindsay Neustatter

went to visit him in prison on remand.

And he came out shaking his head saying,

"I can't find anything wrong with him."

Psychiatrists who talked to Myra Hindley

came back with the same
disturbing conclusion.

They couldn't find
anything wrong with her.

Which led you to the horrific conclusion

that either they're as sane as we are,

or we're as insane as they are.

It led to an enormous
amount of head shaking

as to what the truth was.

What you are left with is that

conventional psychiatric
theories cannot account for

why Hindley and Brady
became what they are.

[tense music]

During the trial,

Ian Brady tried to minimise
Myra Hindley's involvements

in the crimes, but, in the end,
they were bonded in m*rder.

Brady was convicted on all three counts.

Myra Hindley was convicted
on two counts of m*rder

and of assisting an offender.

Ian knew exactly that
what he was doing was wrong

and that is actually what
made him feel superior

to everyone else.

And he's very proud of the fact that

he chose to follow his
desires, rather than to conform

to what society would expect and want.

This is a man that
luckily remained behind bars

for his entire life, 'cause this was a man

that was incredibly dangerous,

who would've gone on to k*ll again.

They're just psychos.

They're just K*llers,
they're child K*llers,

that's all they are.

And as child K*llers
they should be forgotten,

they should be locked up and left.

[tense music]

In 1967, less than one
year after conviction,

Ian Brady began to show
signs of mental distress,

hearing voices, hallucinations,

believing that he was being spied upon,

and showing increasing signs of paranoia.

[tense music]

Both Ian Brady and Myra Hindley
struggled with prison life.

They struggled with being
apart from one another.

The relationship
between Brady and Hindley

is clearly profoundly disturbing.

Of course it was probably
through that relationship

that they enabled each
other to commit the murders.

It was deep and profound and
affectionate in their own way.

After they were both sent to prison,

the love affair continued.

They were in separate jails of course,

but they wrote to each other
long four page letters.

He will call her Hessey.

She will write to him
calling him dearest Ian.

[tense music]

My name's Emma Bache
and I'm a graphologist,

a handwriting analyst.

I can ascertain someone's
personality and characteristics

through their handwriting.

The spaces around the letter,

so the margins are very, very small,

which means that he has a
real need to be in charge

of any situation.

He's not somebody who needs or
wants or even could cope with

being alone for very long,

and he would dominate any situation.

I'm only interested in the handwriting,

and indeed most of my work is looking at

samples of handwriting blind.

I don't get to meet the person.

I can really see what motivates
them, what their feelings,

their desires, their emotions,

as well as their physical
and sexual motivations.

The lower zone of the handwriting
is about energy levels,

physicality, but it can
also point to sexuality.

So the whole sexuality
aspect of his personality

was important to him.

Although his lower zones are very long,

there are a lack of curves in them,

which means that his sexuality
would again be based on

control and not emotion.

Emotion he would be frightened of

almost in every aspect of his life.

[dramatic music]

[doors clanking]

Prison was a very uncomfortable
experience for Ian Brady

and this probably accounts
for the complete breakdown

of his mental faculties.

He became very internalised

and things became very difficult for him.

[tense music]

Brady did go mad in
prison, did become disturbed,

but that's likely to
be the way he was held

in solitary confinement
for most of the time.

So one of the psychiatrists
who met him said,

"Well, he wasn't insane to begin with,

but he probably is now."

[tense music]

He still tried to be in control.

When a group of gangsters discovered

that one of them was in a cell under him

and they tried to give him a bad time

by shouting things at him
and banging on his cell,

he simply stayed up the
whole of the following night

and banged with a
broomstick on the ceiling

of the cell below,

so that the man below
got no sleep that night.

The relationship with Brady persisted

for some time after
they'd gone into prison.

They applied to get married
because they thought that

then they would be
allowed conjugal visits.

They wanted to see each other.

They very much wanted to still be a team.

But towards the end of their relationship,

she actually had a friend
writing the replies back.

They made fun of it, they had a joke,

but eventually she stopped writing.

[tense music]

He said, "Do you want to finish with me?"

And she said, yes, she did
want to finish with him,

and she broke off with him.

And that meant that

he began to turn his vitriol towards her.

[dramatic music]

The control he had over Myra Hindley,

obviously he wanted to
continue that in jail.

It was only when she then
rejected him finally,

in I think probably a
bid to get her freedom,

that then he started to use
the power he had over her

in terms of what he knew
about her involvement

in the murders, to then make
it impossible essentially

for her to ever leave jail as well.

This was a person that had already ruined

other people's lives,

but he wanted to continue
doing so, even from prison.

These desires, these needs,

they come from some kind
of deficit within a person.

He became very vindictive
and the only power he had,

when he was able to have visitors,

he would have journalists visit him

and he'd start leaking stories about her.

He would write letters
to people about her.

He started poisoning any
relationship he'd had

with Myra Hindley,

by making her seem far more
involved with the crimes

than she probably had been.

He turned against her.

He was a formidable enemy.

Brady's diagnosis was
paranoid schizophrenia,

narcissistic personality disorder.

But he also definitely
meets the criteria for

antisocial personality disorder.

However, for me,

I think it was more about
personality disorder

than mental illness.

[tense music]

According to Ian Brady, in later life,

he believed that life in
a psychiatric hospital

would be easier than life
in a high security prison

and that he'd been faking
symptoms of mental illness

in order to be moved to Broadmoor,

or some other such hospital.

I'm Tony Thompson.

I am a retired director
of practise development

with the forensic services

in the high secure service
of Ashworth Hospital.

Ashworth is one of the high
secure hospitals in the U.K,

the others being of
course, Broadmoor, Rampton,

and Carstairs in Lanarkshire in Scotland.

Whether Brady faked being mentally ill

in order to be transferred
to a hospital environment,

I don't think anyone would ever know.

And then the fact that
Brady was considered to be

a psychopath, then of course
everything was possible.

This prison governor said to me

he felt that the aftermath
of the public outcry

of capital punishment being terminated

by the then Labour government,

that he benefited from that greatly,

and saw the opportunity, and I quote,

to be what was called
nutted off, prison slang,

for someone who would be
transferred from prison

into what might have been
thought to be a much more sedate,

more comfortable environment

within the then special hospitals.

So, I would imagine
that someone like Brady

would not perhaps have found

that it was going to be a
relatively comfortable move,

and would probably be quite surprised

when he entered that environment

to realise the intensity
of the type of security

that was going to be on them.

Brady was not prepared to participate

in any form of rehabilitation.

He was quite vociferous about that,

and I reflect on a
senior colleague of mine

who had a lot to do with Brady

in relation to Brady's complaints.

And he described him as a protagonist.

And I think when you look
at the theatre of the,

and the drama associated
sometimes within high secure care,

that was a very, very apt description.

He was a protagonist in his
own drama, in his own theatre.

And everyone else, including
carers, including nurses,

therapists, psychiatrists, everyone else,

they were just walk-on parts.

They were just stand-ins.

That's how he seemed to, you know,

to be, wanted to be portrayed.

[dramatic music]

I was a detective inspector at the time

working in the serious
crime squad in Manchester.

The head of CID of the day was
a guy called Peter Topping,

detective chief superintendent.

And he had taken the decision
to undertake a review

of the Moors case because
of the two missing children.

Pauline Reade and Keith Bennett,

really post the 1966 conviction,

were just missing person cases.

They had never been connected directly

with Brady and Hindley.

This had all changed in the 1980s

when a journalist managed
to wheedle his way in

to see Brady, and he then put out a piece

in the today newspaper of the day

saying that Brady had confessed.

I think probably his idea of a confession

and everybody else's
were not quite the same.

I think he suggested it was just silence.

That Brady didn't say he hadn't done them,

so that was good enough.

We recovered all the documents
from the original inquiry,

which were held by Cheshire Police,

and we spent months going
through all this paperwork.

I think we were all pretty content

that there was certainly strong suspicion

that Brady and Hindley were involved

in the disappearance
of these two children.

The police believe at
least one young victim

of the Moors murderers
may still be buried here

on bleak Saddleworth Moor,
just outside Manchester.

Originally, the police believed
any trace of the bodies

would've disappeared so many years

after the children went missing.

But now they've been
told there is a chance

that the peat in this moorland

could have preserved any
bodies that were buried here.

Our motivation was to go to see Hindley,

let Brady know that we had seen Hindley,

and let him sit there stewing

thinking that Hindley might
have told us something.

To our amazement, complete surprise,

she actually did tell us something.

[Reporter] There were
times when Hindley cooperated

with the authorities.

From prison, she agreed to
return to Saddleworth Moor

to help police look for
the bodies of her victims.

I got down on one knee with
an archaeological trowel,

a pointing trowel,

and almost instantly found
a white stiletto shoe.

And of course we knew that Pauline Reade

was wearing a white stiletto shoe

at the time she disappeared.

[dramatic music]

When we found the body of Pauline Reade,

Peter went to see Brady

and told him that
there'd been developments

and we found human remains,

and that the chances were
they were Pauline Reade.

And he immediately insisted

that he be taken to Saddleworth Moor

where he would point
out the remaining grave,

that of Keith Bennett.

We took him back there a few days later

and he walked down Hoe
Grain towards Shiny Brook.

I hope he's found.

I hope they find him so I can bury him.

[tense music]

We went in the early
hours of the morning

simply to try to avoid the press.

This whole inquiry had a
very, very high media profile.

He would've known

how to raise awareness of himself

within the confines of
a secure environment.

And so therefore he
would've known and did know

when to push the buttons
that would either produce

a media interest or would
follow media interest.

[Reporter] Brady, taken to and from

Park Lane special hospital,

was in this high-speed police convoy.

It had started out in the early
hours as a secret operation,

but by lunchtime confirmation
came from the Home Office

and from these pictures, that
Brady was back on the moors.

[tense music]

Once he got there, he
strode off very purposefully,

I remember that.

We were all racing behind
him to keep up with him.

But when he got there, he
couldn't get his bearings,

he was talking about
things having been moved

and what have you.

I mean, it hadn't.

If we look at the imagery from the 1960s,

very little has changed up there.

[tense music]

His attempt wasn't a genuine
effort to help the police,

but there's two possibilities here.

One is that he wanted the
attention back on himself

because it was all on Myra.

And there is the possibility
that he was going back there

to kind of have a look
and absorb Keith's grave

for one last time.

[tense music continues]

[Geoff] He was trying to run the show

right from the word go.

That's how he's always done things.

He likes to be the media man.

I'm in charge.

And he's got that ace card,
knowing exactly where Keith is.

He's taunted every one
of the families with it,

but more so the Bennett family.

Seeing someone like Winnie Johnson

distraught and crying

and wanting to just
have that peace of mind

to know where her son was,

I think that was feeding
into him gaining compensation

for what he had been through.

Any normal person receiving
a letter from a mum,

begging to know where her son's body is,

would absolutely crucify them.

Even many offenders wouldn't
be able to deal with that.

But we're not talking
about a normal person here.

We're talking about somebody
who feels no empathy,

has absolutely no remorse.

So those letters wouldn't
have meant anything to him

apart from the fact that
he was still in control.

This wasn't just about
getting back at the children,

but it was also about
making mothers suffer.

I believe he had anger at his mother

and whether he actually showed
that or ever expressed that

to her, I don't know, but he
was certainly expressing anger

at motherhood as part of these crimes.

Ian's reaction supports my feeling

that he is more than a psychopath.

We've seen psychopaths
have remorse and, you know,

kind of resigned to the fact
that they've been caught

and the best thing now would
be to help the families

come to peace with what's happened.

That's not something Ian
can bring himself to do

because to him that would
be handing over the power

that he's worked so hard to get.

It would make all his
hard work seem in vain.

Keith Bennett's body still
hasn't been discovered.

And in one final last attempt at control,

Ian Brady wanted to take his own life.

He wanted to be the one that
determined when his life ended,

and that was his longest running battle.

He wanted people to
say, ah, look at him.

Grey haired old man,

should let him go to
wherever he wants to go.

This is what he's trying
to put over to the public,

but public's not gonna wear that.

[gentle music]

When I was writing to Brady

there was one curious phrase he used.

He said, "I have no future."

I only have the present-
- I only have the present

and the past,

which is why I'm happy
to answer your questions.

[gentle music]

The first thing that I see
is the extreme regularity

of the handwriting.

There's regularity in the slant,

which is very far to the
right, which shows his need,

in fact his obsession with communication.

But also regularity of size and the spaces

between the letters and the words.

Everything about this
handwriting screams out

order and control.

He's also got very tall
upper zone strokes,

which you can see on letters
such as H and F and T.

There's almost a religious,

idealistic way of looking at life,

which actually goes into the fantasy,

which could explain some
of his sexual behaviour.

But everything that he does
is all about pre-planning

and very much him in
charge and in control.

It's chilling to see how
regular his handwriting is

and how little it changes
throughout the years.

[gentle music]

The letters Brady writes to people,

he is manipulating the way we see him,

which is exactly what he's
done throughout his whole life.

He's manipulated people
to get what he wants

and to remain in power and in
control of how people see him.

The signature here,

there was a pride to his
name, how he felt about it.

Whereas the Ian is much more illegible

and it shows self-protection, defensiveness.

So what he was born with
is perhaps not something

that he wants to dwell on.

Whereas what he became
is something that he felt

as though he should be proud of.

[dramatic music]

If I didn't know that they
were written by Ian Brady,

I would not say this has
been written by a k*ller.

[dramatic music continues]

[Reporter] Today marked the start of

the serial k*ller's efforts
to be declared sane.

In order to be transferred

out of the high security

Ashworth Hospital,

he wants to be transferred to prison,

where, in his words, he can
end his life in his own way.

I'm Jeremy Coid.

I'm a forensic psychiatrist.

I'm emeritus professor
of forensic psychiatry

at St Bartholomew's in the
Royal London School of Medicine.

Whilst Brady was in Ashworth Hospital,

I was called in to see
him by his solicitor,

to determine whether he
was mentally competent

to make a decision

to have a public mental
health review tribunal.

There was a question
about his mental state,

as to whether he was mentally ill.

He, of course, is a
fascinating patient to see

because he's so exceptionally unusual,

and has such a generally
negative effect on colleagues,

the police, the public,
and indeed is notorious.

He seemed exceptionally
good at controlling me

if I let him.

You're not supposed to either
like or dislike your patients

or people you interview, but
actually he did produce in me

a feeling of intense dislike.

I was sitting in, actually it
was a large day room, in fact.

There were no other patients there.

And I was shown in there by a nurse

and he was brought to see me.

[tense music]

He was clearly past his best

in terms of his physical appearance.

He was still, at the time I
saw him, in fairly good health.

He was smoking heavily.

He was smoking in a room
with very clear signs of

that you were not to smoke.

There were no ashtrays

and he just merely flicked
the ash onto the carpet.

He looked a bit like a shabby Oxford don.

He was in a pair of grey flannels

and a brown tweed sports jacket.

His general demeanour was to
effectively be my professor

rather than me his, and give me a lecture,

particularly on how dreadful
Ashworth Hospital was

and how particularly awful

his consultant psychiatrist
caring for him at that time was,

and how everybody was wrong
and everything was wrong

and how badly he had been treated.

[gentle music]

But he's also able to be charming,

not to psychiatrists or police
officers, but some people,

laypeople who visit him have
found him most charming.

The issue I was going to see him for was

as to whether he was mentally abnormal

in the sense of being
paranoid and psychotic,

which was the general feeling

of those who'd looked after him.

But actually it was
subtle in the sense that

what I saw was somebody with

a very severe personality disorder.

Essentially, I was
interviewing a psychopath.

But there was an issue
about his egocentricity.

This was somebody who
was so self-absorbed.

You felt that you were in
the presence of an egomaniac,

and I'm sorry, that is not a
psychiatric term any longer,

it's a more lay term, but
it was quite exceptional.

So in terms of the question of

was he obviously mentally ill?

No, he wasn't.

But he was very mentally abnormal

in the sense of his abnormal personality.

- This judgement that
Ian Brady will remain

at Ashworth Hospital is
consistent with the evidence

that our expert clinicians gave.

This means Ian Brady will
remain in the right place

to receive the right
treatment by the right people.

[tense music]

Good riddance he's gone.

I don't drink, but I'll have a pint.

I will have a pint.

Oh, he's gone.

You know.

He refused to apologise until the end.

He said, "Why should I and to
whose benefit would it be?"

No, no remorse.

[gentle music]

I think by refusing to reveal

where Keith Bennett was buried,

that was the last bit of control
that he refused to give up.

But he would never relinquish all control.

Whether Ian Brady
ever intended to reveal

the location of his young victim's grave,

we will never know now.

Many believe he was
simply enjoying the power

that that knowledge gave him,
playing games with the police.

[gentle music continues]

I believe Ian did know
where Keith was buried.

He was very meticulous in his planning.

That's one reason why he took these photos

of the burial spots because
he liked to re-experience it

and look over it.

He took pride in each and
every one of the murders

and he would know where they all were.

He continued even to
the time that he died,

indicating or implying that he knew where

Keith Bennett's grave was.

I'm absolutely 100% satisfied
he didn't know where it was.

Had he known where it was, he
would've told us, I'm sure.

Brady never gave any
excuses for his crimes.

By giving excuses,

he would be admitting that
somebody had authority over him.

And each man, each person,

is responsible for creating
their own meaning in life,

without any debt or
reference to other people.

[gentle music continues]

The relationship between
Ian Brady and Myra Hindley

takes you to the heart of darkness.

How was it that these two people,

who psychiatrists said
were resolutely normal,

how is it they come together
to commit acts of such horror?

One of the arguments you are led to is

it was some way of
facilitating each other,

encouraging each other in
breaking the bounds of convention

and going as far as they did

into unconventional
and criminal behaviour.

I think there's something in that.

There's something in the
idea it was a folie a deux,

a collective madness between the two.

At bottom, it still doesn't explain

why you should indulge in such sickening

and repulsive horror.

[dramatic music]

I think Brady had a very diseased brain.

Something had happened,

something in his biology
I think was different.

Something in his
environment had led to this.

But he had free will.

He could make choices about
the things that he did,

and I think even when somebody is,

there's that level of
disorder in the brain,

we do have some kind of
control over what we do.

So I think he must have come to a point

when he made that decision
to go down a certain path.

[gentle music]

We sit here, I'm including
myself in this, you know,

psychiatrists, psychologists,
we all sit here and talk about

what caused it.

We just don't know sometimes.

Even though I've said
he's not a psychopath,

he's more than a psychopath,

he's created his own new evil.

I think the only valid
use of the word evil

is to describe how these people behaved

and use the term evil as a touchstone

to try to grapple with the
enormity of what they did.

Absolute evil, yes.

No redeeming features, yes.

Murdering small children, torturing them,

sexually abusing them.

It's hard to think of anything more

merits the word evil than that.

But even the word evil in
that case doesn't get you to

why they did it.

[gentle music]

[upbeat music]