01x01 - Episode 1

[bunniefuu]

The following is a presentation

of HBO Sports.

BACK ON THE RECORD

WITH BOB COSTAS

And, here we are, back on the record

Picking up where we left off in 2008,

when things were so different

The Packers were in the midst

of a quarterback controversy,

Chris Paul was turning heads

in the NBA,

The Pirates were in last place,

America was competing

in a controversial Olympics

So different

OK, let's fast forward to 2021.

On the program tonight

Olympic gold medalist Aly Raisman,

on the Tokyo Games,

Simone Biles and the state

of gymnastics

Our panel includes Cy Young

award winner David Cone,

the WNBA's Renee Montgomery,

and our resident man of opinions,

besides my own, Bomani Jones.

But we begin with someone

who needs no introduction,

largely because that would cut

into his time talking

Ladies and gentlemen,

I give you Charles Barkley.

- Thank you, Bob!

- Long time, no see. How you doing?

Man, I'm doing great.

This if off season for me.

Basketball ended awesome,

so I'm excited to be doing nothing.

We're gonna talk about this just

completed NBA season in a minute,

but recently you said that

you might not be long for TV.

Too politically correct,

not as much fun

But who's stopping you from

saying whatever you want to say?

I was saying it kinda

tongue in cheek.

I know basket

The world has changed.

You can't crack jokes anymore.

- But you do.

- I'm going to.

You know, I'm gonna have fun.

Bob, I'm talking about

a stupid basketball game.

I tell people is not like I'm a doctor,

a lawyer,

an engineer, teacher, farmer, policeman,

somebody in the armed services.

Those are like real jobs.

I get paid to watch the greatest

basketball players in the world.

They are all making

30-40 million dollars.

Everybody's happy.

But I am trying to make people

at home have a good time,

especially during a pandemic.

So I'm gonna have fun.

And, hey, if they fire me, so what?

They are not gonna fire you.

You might be the only person,

in the midst of a cancel culture,

who's pretty close to uncancelable.

Here's something you said recently

You mentioned the pandemic.

At this point, anybody who doesn't

get vaccinated is an as*h*le.

I only said it 'cause

I 100% believe that.

I think it is selfish

I do, I think it's selfish

And I think it's really selfish

if you play sports.

Because, Bob, number one,

a lot of people have died,

which sucks.

But more people lost their jobs,

they've lost their houses,

and their dreams have shattered.

All athletes have been paid.

I just think it's so selfish.

Think about this

We are the only job in the entire world

where we've gotten paid

and everybody else have lost

their jobs or gotten laid off.

And for players,

not to take the vaccination,

I just think it's selfish, because,

number one, you don't want

to get anybody sick.

That's the most important thing.

But I just think it's selfish,

for you, who are in a great situation,

not to be vaccinated.

The NFL recently said:

If there's an outbreak on a team,

with a significant number

of unvaccinated players,

they're liable to forfeit the game.

I think that's great.

Well, listen, every job

you go to have rules.

I think there has to be mandate

to get vaccinated.

and if you don't wanna live

by the rules of your job,

you have the right to get fired.

You do have rights,

but there are certain things

I can't do with my job,

there are certain things

you can't do with your job.

I think all sports should be mandated.

You have to get vaccinated.

And if people don't like it,

they have the right to walk away.

All right, let's move on, even though

we could talk about that for an hour

without getting to the bottom

of all of this.

Random stuff This is from you.

"I don't care what people think.

People are stupid!"

Well, I think the reason

I said that is

In my second year in the league,

when I was becoming a star,

they start coming to me.

I asked Dr. J how can I

'Cause he was a mentor to me, how

to deal with the media and the fans

And he says: "Young fellow,

you're gonna have to make a decision."

"You can't make all these people happy."

"It doesn't matter what you say.

That's the thing that's funny."

"It doesn't matter what you say.

Half of people gonna dislike it."

So I tried for a little bit.

He says: "I told you that."

And he says: "Charles,

you can make a decision"

"always to be honest

and straightforward."

"Now, some people gonna love that."

"But some people

gonna be the same way."

And I made my decision. You ask me a

question, I'm gonna be honest with you.

You don't have to like me.

You can disagree with me.

But I feel like I have an obligation

to be honest with myself,

especially on television

When I heard that call from you,

I thought of one of the great

George Carlin quotes,

and there are many of them.

"Think of how stupid

the average person is."

"Then realize that half the people

are stupider than that."

You know, like somebody's stuff

you can't even make up.

That's for sure.

Like when you're watching TV

sometimes, you're like

"Does that person really

believe that?"

And you're like:

"That person is just stupid."

Plain and simple.

But the one thing I've learned to do is

I don't overreact to stupidity.

That's the one great thing

about this country.

You have the right to be stupid.

You really do.

And many people

are embracing that right.

No question.

There are so many Chuck quotes

that I could chuck your way,

but we have a limited amount of time.

A recent one:

"Yes, I have a gambling problem,"

"but I can afford it."

Now, sport are now in bed

with gambling operations.

You see the ads

in all the telecasted games.

They're sharing in the profits off it.

Would that atmosphere,

when you were an active player,

would that have affected you or other

players? Is there a danger of that?

I don't know how to answer

that question, honestly,

because I think the guys all make

so much money now,

they'd be stupid to get involved.

Like if you're making 20-30 million

If you're making 5-7 million dollars

a year

how much are you gonna risk

your livelihood? That's just stupid.

Listen, two things in this country

that the toothpaste is out the tube:

gambling and pot.

I don't know to answer.

I'm not a pot guy.

I've tried pot five times. All of them

made me do was eat potato chips.

It didn't

- You're not alone in this.

- No, but I'm saying

I got friends who love pot.

I'm sitting around with them, they're

smoking pot and they'd be like

"Man, this makes me feel

a type of way"

So I tried it like five times

And I said:

"You got potato chips around here?

I don't feel a certain way."

And it's the same thing

with gambling.

Ah, gambling

I love to gamble.

I'm much better at it now

than I was 25 years ago.

25 years ago I thought

I could break the casino.

- Every time I went there.

- It doesn't work that way.

Yeah, I had to learn it

the hard way.

Now, I go there,

I gamble for a few hours,

I win a little, I lose a little

I had a great weekend.

But there was a time when I was like:

"I'm gonna break the casino."

- I'm gonna stay till I break it.

- Did they ever cut you off?

Four hundred, five hundred in debt

No more.

They cut me off way later.

- Oh, into the millions?

- Yes.

But then I had to learn

When I lose a million.

It's a lot worse

It sucks when I lose a million.

But when I won a million

I was on cloud nine.

And I went through a period

when I was like:

"I got to win a million dollars

every time I go to the casino."

'Cause I won a million dollars

a couple of times.

But I lost a million dollars a lot more,

to be honest with you.

You win a million dollars.

How do to they pay it out?

Cheque, cash, they give you chips?

Always cash.

I would take it home in cash.

Take a million bucks home in a big sack,

like the guy on the Monopoly card?

You put in a suitcase, Bob.

It's a lot of money.

It comes in a little plastic bag,

when it's all sealed up.

If you are not a role model, as you

famously said long ago, who is?

Anybody in sports a role model?

We don't really know these people.

The reason I made

the role mode commercial

I went to Nike and I said

I want to make this commercial

because we have so many

segregated schools.

And the one thing I realized

was the problem was

black kids think they can only be

successful in sports and entertainment.

That's the reason I made

the commercial.

I knew I was gonna take some heat,

but in fairness to Nike,

they came back to me later and said

that 90% of the letters are positive.

You have to listen to the whole spot.

And that is what I am proud of.

Bob, I am still concerned

today that black kids

they don't think they can be doctors

and lawyers, engineers and teachers

Obviously, some do,

because there's plenty of them.

But there's a subset that's not.

Yeah, but the system

we've got in place for sports

it is dangerous.

You got a gazillion kids

trying to make it in sports

and less than 1% gonna make it.

That's my problem with this whole model.

All right. I wish we could

continue on this, but

let's roll the footage from 1992.

Barcelona Olympics,

Dream Team

Here's Charles with Michael Jordan.

Sometimes I dream

That he is me

I just wanna be like Chuck

I mean Mike.

OK. You guys were tight.

Normally, I don't deal on this kind of

stuff, but it's you and Michael Jordan.

Are you guys still friends?

What's up with that?

We are not and I take some

responsibility for that.

I criticized his

He was one of my best friends

and I definitely love him and miss him,

to be honest with you.

But I have to do my job.

I said, at the time

We could debate whether

I should have said it,

but I was asked a question and I always

try to be honest at my job.

I said: "I don't know if Michael

is ever gonna be successful,"

"cause I don't know if he got enough

strong people around him."

- Running the Charlotte Hornets?

- Yes.

When you are famous,

you really have to be careful.

Not just Mike or anybody

who's famous.

There are people around you

You buy all the drinks,

you buy all the meals,

they're on your private jet.

They're never gonna tell you no.

Ever!

And if you look back at history,

there's been a lot of self-destruction

in celebrities.

The one thing I try to do is

I wanna have people around me like:

"Charles, stop!"

You're doing something stupid.

You don't think Michael has that,

even now,

at this stage of his life and career,

not a player, owner?

I think that he has been successful,

but when I said it, at the time,

I stick by that.

And it was painful to lose him

as a friend, and it's still painful,

but when I said it, at the time,

it was true

Whether I was right or wrong,

that's debatable.

But when I'm asked a question

on live television,

I have to be honest,

because that's just who I am.

And that alone set him off?

That alone was the reason for the rift?

- Yes.

- OK.

Jordan of LeBron?

Jordan. LeBron is amazing.

What he's done in the community

is amazing.

The reason I get Jordan the edge

Actually, in fairness,

I don't even put LeBron past Kobe.

Let's get that out of the way.

I want to be fair.

The reason I put Michael up there

before those other guys

LeBron has stacked his teams.

Let's be realistic.

As Kevin Durant did

and others have done

- Is this their legacy?

- Yes.

Russell Westbrook

on his way to the Lakers?

So I do.

Like what Giannis

And Dirk Nowitzky, guys like

But Giannis is the perfect example.

They go through the gran.

And to lose

It was Michael Deane.

When I watched that documentary

I was like:

"Damn, I forgot how bad

the Pistons beat him up!"

But what he

Going through that struggle

that what separates sports.

Like, winning all the time

Like, we all want to win.

But the struggle is part of your legacy.

But what Giannis did this year,

what Michael did when the Pistons

beat the hell out of him

for 3 or 4 straight years.

And he's like:

"No, I'm gonna keep getting better."

That's the difference, in my opinion.

Your opinion matter more than mine,

but when people asked me this question,

here's my answer.

LeBron might be in his own way

equally excellent,

he will never be nearly as great,

because Michael's performances

in big moments -

six for six in the finals,

MVP every time,

and his effect on the culture,

the dream team,

and taking the NBA mainstream

Now, none of this

is LeBron's fault,

but in that era that you played in,

in the 90's -

factor my bias in -

the NBA is on NBC.

The promos are on Seinfeld

and on ER,

and on Cosby, and David Letterman

and Johnny Carson,

The Today Show, The Tonight Show

They're not a cable entity.

Little old lady in Omaha said:

"Not tonight, Mildred!"

"I gotta watch Michael Jordan."

No comparable little old lady every

said, through no fault of LeBron's:

"No! Stop everything! I gotta

watch LeBron." It's not the same.

Two things.

Number one

Michael is the first jock

to do commercials.

No. O.J. did and many did.

- Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle did

- But not at that level.

That's the first thing. He made

Guys can do five commercials

a year now,

but the second thing is

no jock was selling tennis shoes.

Now guys are making 100 million dollars

selling tennis shoes.

Nobody made money selling

tennis shoes until Michael Jordan.

And he's still making that today.

That is transcendent.

Like I said, I got nothing

but love and respect for LeBron.

But if you are able to make it when

everybody is sh**ting commercials now

LeBron is making 100 million

for selling shoes

because of Michael Jordan.

It's self-explanatory.

Could be equally excellent,

but not nearly as great.

Now, pop quiz Spell

Antetokounmpo.

I'll spell you the Giannis.

G-I-A-N-N-I-S.

Spell Antetokounmpo.

Ante A-N-T-E.

K-O

You left something out.

A-N-T-E is correct.

Antetokounmpo.

- Another "T".

- Yep.

- O

- Yep.

- K

- Yes.

- O

- Yes.

M-T

- There's no "T".

- E

There's no more E's.

You do need a few more vowels.

Bob, I didn't go to class a lot

in college.

I went to college for three years

and I am still a freshman.

There it is, on the screen.

For your edification.

Two more very quick things.

Chris Paul now, 16 years, no ring.

You had no ring, but other who were

part of the dream team with you

I don't want to leave nobody out

Patrick Ewing, John Stockton,

Karl Malone, Chris Mullin

all on the dream team, in '92.

Largely because of the presence

of Jordan, no ring.

Is it fair to Chris Paul?

It is very unfair to Chris Paul.

First of all, he's the greatest leader

we had in NBA in the last 10-15 years.

That's quite a statement.

First of all, we all wanna

win a championship.

I don't think it diminishes us.

I think it can enhance you.

I think winning the championship

enhances you.

But it doesn't define you. I mean

First of all, I am trying to figure out

when it became an individual game.

Just because some idiot on TV

says he hasn't won a championship

Wait a minute!

I am not out here by myself.

The reason that Knicks didn't win

is not because of Patrick Ewing.

The reason that Jazz didn't win is not

because John Stockton and Karl Malone.

No disrespect to my teams

in Philly or Phoenix.

We didn't win and I don't think

it was my fault.

How about this? Jerry West.

Mr. Clutch, the logo of the league.

Played in nine finals.

His teams lost eight.

He played in the NCAA final.

West Virginia lost by a point to Cal.

Can you imagine what they would

do to the logo, to Mr. Clutch, today?

Hey, listen

First of all, he is one of the greatest

men I met in my life.

One of the nicest, greatest

men I met in my life.

Listen, part of

It all goes together.

I am happy with what I accomplished

in basketball.

And I'm not saying it,

I'm not angry,

I am not jealous on anybody,

but I'm happy with what

I accomplished in basketball.

Last thing. What's your biggest

regret, if you have one?

So funny you asked that question.

My biggest regret If I had known

all these jackasses on TV

are gonna criticize me

for not winning a championship,

I would've joined the super team

way back.

That's my biggest regret.

I can force my way out

like James Harden

and I can play with Michael,

Larry and Magic.

But I don't have any regrets.

I am 58 years old.

I had an amazing life.

I've accomplished everything I wanted

to accomplish in my life, to be honest.

I got my family out of poverty.

I am from a small town in Alabama.

I've accomplished everything

that I wanted to accomplish.

We gotta stop, even though

I wish we could continue.

- You know Bomani Jones, right?

- Yes.

Well, he will be a regular voice

on this program

Where am I?

I gotta get used to where I am.

So, here's Bomani with his thoughts

on the recent supreme court decision

Impacting college sports.

It's a new day in college sports,

one where college athletes

can make money off their names,

images and likenesses.

This after many states passed

laws allowing the practice,

rendering the NCAA powerless

to stop it.

That's pretty cool,

but let's think about this.

The supreme court issued a 9-0

decision that declared the NCAA

was in violation of the Sherman

anti-trust act by capping

education related benefits

provided to athletes.

Brett Kavanaugh, one of the court's

most conservative justices,

made the most obvious point,

That no other business is allowed to

make money without paying for labor.

It's good to see athletes

finally able to cash in,

but think about what a hustle this is.

The NCAA now allows

others to pay its workforce.

Now, players whose time is already

decided by their non-paying jobs

can use the scant hours they're

not making money for the schools

to do so for themselves.

It's not enough that players

can get money now.

They should be getting money

from the schools.

They should get a cut

from the biggest pile of all,

the TV money that funds million dollar

coaching salaries,

that builds fancy buildings

that are used to recruit players.

Buildings, I'm sure,

players would forego

if they just got their cut of the cash.

That's the problem with the push

for allowing players

to profit from their fame.

It ignores what's really immoral

about the status quo

and tacitly endorses its maintenance.

It implies only famous

players deserve money,

like there aren't thousands

you'll never hear of

destroying their bodies in obscurity.

The local pizzeria shouldn't

decide who deserves a paycheck.

This whole thing is rotten,

but many who support change fear,

deep down, they'll lose something

they love if the players are paid wages.

They want to hold on

to a few fairy tales.

They won't want their favorite

programs to go out of business.

Like it or not, if you can't pay your

workforce, you can't do business.

Progress might not be pretty for

everyone, but it would be right.

The players aren't entitled

to side money.

They deserve the real money.

If Brett Kavanaugh can see that,

and you miss it,

you're doing it on purpose.

That's Bomani Jones' view,

which I share in part.

Bomani, make you way on over here

and join the panel eventually,

but first let's start

with a response to this.

This isn't to be construed in any way

as a defense of the NCAA.

I wouldn't do that.

But we're losing No, what I'm about

to say, not what you just said.

We are losing track

of the bigger picture.

I realize this whole thing

is a sham,

in many cases,

but it should not be.

A player on full scholarship

is getting the benefit

of a free education if he or she

takes advantage of it.

At my alma mater, Syracuse,

for four years,

that's between

250 and 300 000 dollars.

Notre Dame and Stanford,

300 grand.

Alabama, 100 grand.

Outside, about 180 000 dollars.

It's only if you view this as worthless,

that you're being entirely exploited.

I am all for name, image and likeness,

make what you can.

It's only gonna be a tiny fraction.

But if you're not there

inteding to be a student,

you can't claim to be exploited

if you don't go to class

and don't get the benefit of it.

But they are recruiting students.

What you say makes perfect sense if

they were recruiting real-life students

and they would prioritize

your athleticism

over your ability to be a student

every single time.

So if every athlete was coming in,

able to get into the schools

and prepared to use the education

we talked about, then I'd be with you.

But they are knowingly letting people in

that they know

are not necessarily able to handle

the work that is there before them

and not even allow them to fully indulge

in the education that you described,

so if there is time for them to go to

class and take real live majors

and, beyond just the class part,

if there's time to hang out on the quad

and just be an actual

college student to go to discussions,

then everything you say is correct,

but that's not the world we live in.

How about this?

In the revenue producing sports,

the president of the university

monitors all admissions.

You have to be at least minimally able

to be a student at that school

if it didn't have a basketball

or football program.

Then go back to the old model.

Freshmen are ineligible. You have

four years of eligibility after that.

Every scholarship is at least five

years. Establish yourself as a student.

During the season you only have

to carry maybe 6 credits.

You could come back later

to get the degree.

But you have to be a legitimate

student.

And we're not gonna have freshmen

play football games in August,

before they ever go to a class

and then play holiday basketball

tournaments when they should be home

at Thanksgiving and Christmas.

Reform that and a lot of what

you're mentioning goes away

and then the NFL has to come up

with a legitimate farm system

and the NBA has to expand its own.

No, the solution to the corruption of

the NCAA

truly is take everything off

television

because the money of

television is what fuels everything.

- But everything that you described

- Thank you, Knute Rockne!

But in the presence of television and

the money that comes with television,

then everything that you described there

will never happen!

And that ain't never happening

on this planet!

Oh, no! That horse left he barn!

And joining Bomani now for our panel,

two time WNBA champion

with Minnesota Lynx,

who's now the part owner of the

Atlanta Dream, Renee Montgomery,

and five time All Star,

five time World Series champ

and Cy Young Award winner,

now a broadcaster on Yankee games,

here in New York, David Cone.

David, will start with you. Lots of

issues in baseball.

One of them is the crackdown on the

so-called sticky stuff.

Spin rates were through the roof,

pitchers dominating hitters,

baseball crackdown Should they

have done it and has it worked?

I think it was the right move, even

though they had to do it mid-season.

I mean the batting averages

were at an all time low,

strikeouts at an all time high.

Pitchers and their stuff was just

darting at the top of the strike zone,

so certainly we can measure it now with

the new technology

and the spin rates kept going up and up

and up almost by the team.

If one guy on the team showed you

how to do it

then the entire pitching staff seemed

to benefit from it.

And we saw exponential increases in the

spin rates almost overnight.

Let's talk about the concept of pressure

in sports.

It's front and center now,

because of Simone Biles situation,

which will talk more about in a bit with

Aly Raisman.

You were perfect for one day, in 1999.

You threw a perfect game.

People expect Simone Biles, Renee,

to be perfect all the time.

I think it's because a lot of times when

somebody is great at something,

you almost look at them as

this action figures.

They're great and then if they show

any sign of weakness

if they can't play for something that

you think that they should fight for,

can't perform because of mental health,

everyone's like but this person is

supposed to be great

and I think we're starting to see now

some of those greats,

what we define as great,

the mamba mentality,

is starting to change a little, 'cause

if you break down the mamba mentality

- That's Kobe Bryant.

- Yeah.

You think of him walking to the free

throw line when he tore his achilles

and he's fighting through

and he's doing whatever it takes,

but now we see a Naomi Osaka

and she's like,

for my mental health

I'm gonna take a break.

And then you see Simone Biles

and you see what's going on with her

and so it starts to shift

the conversation a little bit

to what's great and what's not

and they're still great.

They're just conscious

of their mental health.

With Simone there's a physical aspect

that could have led to catastrophic

injury. We'll get to that with with Aly.

What's the most pressure

you've ever felt

and did you ever succumb to it?

I did. The most pressure ever felt is

when I did

It was 1988, I was pitching

in the playoffs against the Dodgers,

and I had done a ghostwritten column

with Bob Klapisch,

and back then they had The Wire.

I said some disparaging thing

about some Dodger players,

Orel Hershiser and J Allen.

The Dodgers had 100 copies

of that newspaper article

pinned on their dugout wall

when I walked out the pitch.

Everybody was on the top step of the

dugout, screaming at me.

My legs got heavy.

I physically almost got ill.

I was nauseous.

I completely choked in that game.

First time ever. I admit that I just

completely choked in that game.

But you pitched a good game

later in that series.

I did. It was a learning experience.

I learned and suffered from it,

as much as you can,

as a baseball player,

in that situation,

in the playhouse.

But I did. It was a real learning

moment for me.

After the game, what do you do,

Bomani?

Stand in front of your locker,

face the music?

I did. The minute the doors opened

and the press

Back then, they let press

in the club houses.

Kind of a love story, too. You can

question people after the game.

But I stood in front of my locker,

answered every question,

and took the heat.

I'm trying to figure out what you had

bad to say about Orel Hershiser in 1988.

- Nothing. Scoreless innings.

- I call them lucky.

It was a big hit.

That was insightful.

But the idea they faced the music part

is a big one, right?

We the media are not quite as important

as we like to make ourselves to believe,

but I fully respect the idea of somebody

be willing to take all these questions.

I can think of LeBron 2011

against the Mavericks,

where every question was a gut punch and

how difficult that must have been to do.

And I can understand why people want

to walk away from it.

I think the flip side of it is we don't

say enough of an admiration

that we have for the people who then

stand in that situation where you did,

like I earned this, I own this,

and now I do it.

There has got to be room

to respect the humanity of people

in the times where

they are not able to do it,

while giving credit to people

when they can.

Instead of expecting this superhuman

feat to be the default.

But look what we do to the people

that do step up.

Okay?

Sha'Carri Richardson.

She said, "Look, I did it. It was

ill*gal where I was at, but I did it."

Look what happens, though.

There's that give and take.

He stood up and took the heat, but

Twitter wasn't going on at that time.

It's different when you know that every

single thing you say will live forever.

It will be reposted, re-put back to you.

So it's changing.

Social media is a big part of this,

because it's something like

David, our generation,

we're aware of it.

But, for a younger generation,

it's primary.

What's on Twitter,

whether it's idiotic or not,

or what's on Instagram or someplace

else may be more central to their life

than a cover story in Sports Illustrated

or a profile in the New York Times.

You look at it now.

There was this trend going around

asking the younger, even athletes,

"Would you rather 20,000 more followers

or hit the game winner?"

That's the question that young athletes

have to consider.

- And they have to think about it?

- They do.

- Well, damn!

- Exactly.

Things are different. Their first

thought is social media.

That's an afterthought. Even for me.

After we lose a game,

my first thought wasn't, "Oh, what are

they saying about me on Twitter?"

I was at that age where my first

thought, "I'm just mad about the game."

If you live in there, even if you're

Simone Biles, that can be a trap.

Yeah, definitely.

I mean, think about it, if

If you're talking about the pressure,

we didn't have that necessarily.

A whole world pressure of the social

media can feel like an attack.

Something can go viral and it feels like

the whole world is looking at you crazy.

And so that's their reality now.

Now you're a part owner

of the WNBA's Atlanta Dream.

You took off the whole season a year ago

to focus on social justice issues.

And we know that there was a moment

in time, post George Floyd,

there was a reckoning.

That isn't to say that it stops

when the calendar year stops.

But how do you respond

to those who say

We're not talking about the

shut-up-and-dribble people,

we're talking about people who would be,

in the general sense, allies,

who say, "When I'm watching the game,

I just wanna watch the game."

"And there's a million and one places

to discuss these issues."

I think that those people don't realize,

to the same that this Gen Z,

social media is their reality.

Well, when you're black in America,

what we're talking about during sports

is our reality.

Whether we're playing sports or not,

a lot of times,

when people are like, "Just separate the

two, we wanna just see the sports"

And I'm not even talking about

the shut-up-and-dribble people,

I'm talking about the people that just

wanna take a break from it.

We don't have that luxury.

When we're thinking about

"Oh, that's great to just get away

for a couple hours and take a break."

"Good for you that you can do it,

but not everybody can."

It's significant that you are part of a

group that purchased the Atlanta Dream

away from the primary owner,

who was Kelly Loeffler,

who was a Trump person in Georgia.

Maybe that's coincidental.

I'm thinking it's not.

I think that Georgia did a lot in 2020,

and one thing was to stand up.

"Whatever is happening in the world,

we don't want that happening here,"

"in Georgia, we don't want

that happening in Atlanta."

I think the players, the Dream 2020

Atlanta Dream just won

the ESPN and Humanitarian

Sports Team of the Year Award.

That's because they stood up

when it wasn't easy.

A lot of people were saying what the

previous owners of the team was saying.

But a lot of people

also stood against it.

Bomani, I'm good with the general idea

of athletes using their platform.

I'm old enough to remember first hand

Tommie Smith and John Carlos,

a specific moment in time and a profound

statement in its context.

Muhammad Ali was sui generis

because he was Muhammad Ali

and because boxing

is an individual sport.

Arthur Ashe, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,

admire them greatly,

and admire and agree with many

present day athletes.

But I don't think, in order to prove

that I am generally okay

with what comes under the umbrella

of social causes

that I have to view every athlete

with a Twitter account

as Frederick Douglass in Nikes.

Do I have to?

We don't have to view anybody, anyway,

in one particular form or another.

One thing that happens

in terms of the encouragement of people

to be "outspoken" is

- Not everybody is worth listening to.

- Correct.

The willingness to speak does not mean

that you are the person who should.

I am not necessarily annoyed by people

who speak when they should listen

if I believe that they mean well

and a lot of people do mean well.

But I also think that if people get

to a place where they focus

on the fact that they are annoyed rather

than the fundamental understanding

that these people mean well, then

we're looking at things the wrong way.

Last thing. The Cleveland Indians

will now be the Cleveland Guardians,

which is a nod towards some history and

architectural significance in Cleveland.

What do we think?

I thought The Spiders

would have been nice.

They used to be The Spiders

a hundred years ago.

- The ideas for the mascot

- Unless you have arachnophobia

That's true too. Terry Francona, who had

to step away due to health reasons,

handled the press conference after this

announcement beautifully.

He said he's never been so proud to be

a part of the Cleveland Organisation.

They're trying to do the right thing and

take everybody's feelings into account.

They did their homework, talked to

everybody involved, Native Americans

He said they did their diligence and

made their decision. He was proud of it.

- Bomani?

- As long as it's not The Indians

The only thing that mattered is

that it's not The Indians

and I can understand the idea

they want

to take everybody's feelings

into account, we didn't need

to talk to everybody. We got stuck

with this name for so long

for listening to too many people.

It was obvious

that this was clearly disrespectful

to a group of people

because of who they are, because

of their ancestry and that was

enough reason to change. We didn't

need to talk to nobody else.

And the point to those who object should

be, "not intentionally disrespectful."

We're not saying people who have

Chief Wahoo jackets or memorabilia

are being intentionally disrespectful.

What matters or the point I made,

many years ago,

at half time of a Sunday night game,

about the Washington Redskins

Get a dictionary!

Make distinctions!

Every dictionary says an insult, a slur,

a derogatory, pejorative,

regardless of the present day intent,

that makes it distinct

from Chiefs, Braves or Warriors,

which doesn't have to be regarded

as disrespectful,

depending upon the symbols

and upon the rituals.

Warrior is not a race-specific thing.

A Chief or a Brave

is an honorific.

That's not really different

from Patriot or Buccaneer. Is it?

Except so many of our Native American

brothers and sisters

are telling us, "We find this

to be disrespectful."

- We're like, "But we don't mean it."

- That's the problem. It's like

If people have already said it

This happened and we've only

realized this recently.

It's been happening. There's been

movements against it.

And now, all of a sudden,

everybody's like, "Oh, it's wrong."

That's the problem.

Just listen.

I feel compelled as the moderator to say

that there have been surveys that say

that the majority of Native Americans

either think it's okay or don't care.

- But. 50 percent ain't the threshold.

- There we go.

We could continue and I've got a feeling

we will, in the Green Room.

Thanks to all of you.

Now

Over the last decade,

Aly Raisman has been one of America's

biggest Olympic stars.

At the 2012 games, in London,

she captained the "Fierce Five",

as that Squad was known and

they won gold in the team event.

Four years later in Rio, Raisman

and "The Final Five,"

as they dubbed themselves,

repeated that feat

In the years since,

with the continuing revelations

about gymnastics' sexual

abuse scandal,

she's become one of the leading

advocates for change

in the gymnastics culture.

At the 2018 ESPY award, some 150

survivors of Dr. Larry Nassar's abuse

stood on the stage. Raisman was

one of those who spoke for them.

All we needed was one adult

to have the integrity to stand

between us and Larry Nassar.

If just one adult had listened,

believed and acted,

the people standing before you

on this stage

would have never met him.

And here now is Aly Raisman.

Thanks so much for joining us.

Since 2018, since 2017,

following the Rio Olympics,

when you made

your own experience public,

how far have things progressed

and where do they have to get to

for you and others like you

to have some closure?

It's a good question. Thank you for

having me. It's nice to see you.

We've been saying for years that we want

and I think that we need,

in order to feel safe

and to be able to feel safe

for ourselves and the current

and future generations,

an independent investigation

where it goes back decades

and nobody's off limits,

the US Olympic Committee

and USA Gymnastics release

all documents, data,

text messages, emails,

and that has not even been close

to being done.

So it's been a very long journey.

I reported my abuse six years ago.

So it's been a very long,

exhausting journey.

USA Gymnastics offered a settlement

of something over 200 million dollars

that was rejected out of hand and

angrily by Simone Biles, you and others.

It would have protected Steve Penny,

the former head of the organization,

it would have protected in theory the

Karolyis from any legal ramifications.

I also think, for me, one of the big

reasons why I decided to file a lawsuit,

it was something that I was really

afraid to do,

but after a lot of thought

and consideration I realized

that it would help us get answers,

because as I just said,

we've been saying for an independent

investigation for years

and that's not happening.

So when you do have a lawsuit,

you are able to get access to documents

and data and you learn stuff.

It's a very slow process,

but we want answers,

which is why we keep pushing

and saying the same things,

but it is absolutely absurd that USA

Gymnastics and the USOC are saying

that they want certain people

to be dismissed.

Because that also prevents us

from getting the answers

and understanding who knew

what, when.

I ask this question on behalf

of the average viewer

who might say, "Okay, I know why

perhaps in some sports,"

"steroid use is swept under the rug

because it helped us win."

"Or ill*gal inducements to athletes

in college. It helps us win."

How did what Larry Nassar do

help anybody win?

What was the downside,

from a competitive standpoint,

for anybody involved in gymnastics,

including the heads of USA Gymnastics,

to say, "Wait a minute.

There's no cynical upside here."

"Get rid of this guy."

I don't even

I don't understand

how people who worked

at USA Gymnastics and the USOC

the first time they heard the slightest

concern about what he was doing

why they didn't take immediate reaction.

I mean immediate steps,

why they didn't report it immediately,

why they didn't protect us.

I think it really just comes down to

they just didn't care.

And we were winning

and that's all that matters.

All they care about is reputation,

money and medals

and it's very disappointing, but there's

still a lot of the bad people there.

We're not gonna litigate the whole case

here, but what has become known

is that the FBI had information

and slow-walked the case

and that it was USA Gymnastics' attempt

to kick it can down the road,

to at least get passed the 2012 Olympics

before they had to confront anything.

Is that how you see it?

- I believe it was the 2016 Olympics.

- I misspoke.

I reported my abuse in July 2015.

I was told by Steve Penny,

the president of USA Gymnastics,

not to say anything publicly,

that the FBI was working on it,

and just to stay put.

And we kept following up.

My mom has been my biggest supporter

and had been incredible throughout this.

She kept following up

while I was still competing

and also while I was training

for the Olympics.

There was a lot of really shady things

that happened

and I don't understand

how this happened,

I don't understand why the FBI

didn't do more to protect us.

There's still so many

unanswered questions

and hopefully we'll get answers,

but it makes it hard

It definitely shakes my confidence

in the world that we live in.

The average person would ask

There are hundreds of victims.

"If there were only a relative few,

maybe the average person can understand"

"how things that were inappropriate

but were called treatment"

"didn't come to light."

"But when you have hundreds,

how did it stay secret for so long?"

Well

I think that the sport of gymnastics

is a really beautiful sport

but there are a lot of people in the

sport that are a*usive,

especially when you get

to the elite level,

and I think unfortunately what happened

was it became so normalized.

When you have a group

of gymnasts and a group of coaches

who are telling their gymnasts "You look

fat, you shouldn't have dinner tonight."

"You're lazy." If you say your ankle

hurts, they tell you you're faking it.

You begin to not trust how you feel.

And then, when I am in treatment

and a lot of my other teammates are

getting the same type of "treatment".

Let me interrupt. "Treatment"

You were told it was treatment.

But it involved penetration and utterly

inappropriate and a*usive things.

Yeah. So I was told, from the time

that I was around 15,

that this specific "treatment",

which was abuse,

would help prevent me

from getting injured

and would help me

get to the Olympics.

And I don't know if the same thing was

said to my other teammates,

but when I went to training camp

for years and years,

and this person is doing the same thing

to a lot of them,

I know not everyone has come forward,

so I want to be careful

It becomes normalized

in the most horrible way,

but I also want to bring up

There were times when we had said

things, we'd talk about it in practice

and there were times when people

would tell us to shut up

and never speak badly

about him again.

The shame that you feel as a survivor,

when something bad happens to you,

immediately went to, "I feel bad now

that I said something bad about him."

"What if I'm wrong?" And I began to feel

that whatever I felt was incorrect.

You get victim-shamed and told

that you're wrong.

So then you distrust everything else

that's happening in your mind.

It's very confusing.

And there is also

I was never taught that someone you

know could abuse you. I never thought

Did you ever tell your parents

about this?

I told my mom the moment

that USA Gymnastics

had someone come to my house

and talk to me.

- But it had gone on for a while.

- Yes. I didn't know.

Even when I first told my mom,

I still was very confused

and my mom helped me realize

what had happened.

You were among those who made

victim impact statements

looking directly at Larry Nasser

at sentencing.

Here's a piece of that.

From the time we were little,

we are taught to trust doctors.

You are so sick. I can't even comprehend

how angry I feel when I think of you.

You lied to me and manipulated me

to think that when you treated me

you were closing your eyes,

because you had been working hard,

when you were really touching me,

an innocent child, to pleasure yourself.

Two very quick questions

First When you look at that,

I saw you lower your head.

And with Simone Biles situation,

some of this, along with her withdrawal

from the Olympics comes back.

Does that happen, does it come back

in waves, unexpectedly?

Yeah. The other day,

I was physically sick.

I was like literally dry heaving

in my sink and I was

You know that feeling

when you have the stomach bug

and your whole body

is sore and shaking

I physically feel sick.

My brother is in the audience and I feel

bad that he has to hear that.

I feel bad that it affects my whole

family. It's in the news all the time.

It's not something that's easy for me

to hear over and over again.

What happened with Simone a few days ago

has been completely devastating for me.

I feel so bad

and truly sick to my stomach thinking

about what she must be going through.

I'm sending her all the love

and support and it's just terrible.

- Have you spoken with her?

- I have reached out to her.

I've heard back from her,

but we haven't been able to

Of course, understandably.

have a full conversation yet.

When she initially withdrew

from the team competition

and from the All-Around where she would

have been a prohibitive favorite

if she was on her game.

People grouped it with the whole idea

of mental health issues in sports

and that's legitimate,

but her situation is different

from Naomi Osaka or Michael Phelps

who've spoken out about it

because, if you explain to us

what the twisties are,

if she wasn't in the right headspace,

something catastrophic

could've happened

beyond discomfort, stress

and emotional distress.

Yeah. Gymnastics is one of those sports

where it is so dangerous,

and I know that athletes make it look

easy, but it's definitely not.

In gymnastics, if you run a little bit

too fast or a little bit slower,

this light goes into your eye

a certain way,

you even like sneeze

at the wrong time in midair,

anything can happen

where you just feel a little bit off

and maybe they're a little bit

jet-lagged, the pressure must be

I can't even imagine what it must

be like to be Simone right now.

The pressure that she has had on her

for the last few years is just

I can't think of another athlete

that has, similar to that.

Let me jump in. She has competed

with a kidney stone and a broken toe.

But when you're up in the air like that,

you have to have the muscle memory.

When she uncharacteristically didn't

stick a landing and stumbled a bit,

we now learn that that was probably

because it wasn't clicking up here

rather than down here.

Right?

It's actually very common.

Simone called it "the twisties".

I sometimes say we are getting lost

in the air.

I would do the same vault

that she was performing,

it's a two and a half tumble, and

I would sometimes do just a half twist.

Sometimes, for me, when my hands are on

the table, it feels a little different.

You get a little bit lost in the air.

If your head position is a little bit

different, you don't know where you are.

It is very very common. Simone and I

have talked about it many times.

And it's something where sometimes

it takes a day to get back.

Sometimes, you just need to go to the

bathroom, get a drink of water, return.

Other times, it takes weeks to get back

or even months,

or you have to completely change

the skill entirely and not do it again.

It is completely heartbreaking and

gut wrenching for me to see

that she is dealing with this

right now.

because she doesn't have the comfort

of her own home gym

to be able to say, "I'm gonna go home,

take a nap, rest,"

"I'm gonna turn the page,

come back tomorrow,"

"I can try it in the foam pit and"

The foam pit is you're not landing

on a harder surface.

They have hard surfaces in landing,

so there's really no room

If she lands a little bit off,

she can injure herself.

You're flipping around,

you could fall.

There are gymnasts sharing their stories

in support of Simone

saying that they actually broke their

neck and were paralyzed.

So anyone who doesn't understand it has

to recognize de severity and the danger

and understand that they don't know

anything about this sport

but also, we will never know what's

going on in Simone's head

and we just have to be supportive

and recognize

that the pressure that she was under

was way too much.

Nobody should ever have to have

that weight

of carrying a whole entire Olympic games

like she did.

But that alone, as I take it, that alone

would not have stopped her.

It was the possibility

that the combination of factors

had created a disconnect between

her mind and her body

that would have led

not just to subpar performance

but could have led

to a catastrophic injury.

Whenever Simone is ready,

I'm curious to chat with her and see

if she even understands

what's happening.

Because sometimes you feel good

and you just get lost.

Sometimes you might get lost in the air

because you are more tired,

maybe your legs give out, but other

times you might actually feel so good

that you have too much power you're

not used to and you get lost in the air.

So I have no idea if she even knows

what's happening.

But sometimes you just have no

control over it,

you feel like your mind and your body

are disconnected

and I'm not sure what's going on

in Simone's mind.

All I can say is that it is very serious

and I support her with all of my heart

and my heart is completely broken

and I've truly been sick about it

the last few days.

If you had a daughter,

would you want her to be a gymnast?

I love gymnastics and I am confident

that there are people in the sport

who are good people.

I wouldn't want her to go

to the elite level.

But I do wanna have kids one day

and I want my kids to be happy

and if my kid loves gymnastics,

hopefully by then,

we'll have made positive change

in this sport.

But I wouldn't want her to be

at the elite level right now.

Aly, thank you, good to see you again.

Some of this wasn't easy.

- We thank you for being here.

- Thank you for having me.

And finally, consider this

First the stipulations: it was an honor

to anchor all those Olympics on NBC.

I will always value the varied

experiences, personal and professional,

the travelogue aspect

and the memories of the dramatic

moments and moving stories

I was privileged to help present.

I appreciated the dedication and talent

of those I worked for and with at NBC.

And that high regard remains

as they present these Tokyo games

under challenging circumstances.

The enduring appeal

of the Olympics is obvious.

The extraordinary, at times almost

superhuman performances,

the sheer beauty of the competition

and of many of the competitors

themselves,

the cultural panorama

All of that is compelling,

as is the honest emotion

that often accompanies it.

Of course, it is concurrently true

that over its history,

the Olympics have survived cancellations

during world wars

A disgraceful embrace of Hitler

The racism and anti-semitism of longtime

IOC president Avery Brundage

t*rror1st attacks

Disastrous cost overruns

for host cities Boycotts

And scandals too numerous to detail.

And yet the games endure.

So, maybe then, the Olympics,

like college basketball's march madness,

has too much going for it

to ever be undone

by the corruption and hypocrisy

of those who govern their competitions.

But the IOC continues

to test that premise.

And a confluence of current

circumstances may, once and for all,

pull the curtain back.

Despite overwhelming disapproval

from the Japanese public,

and from health experts

worldwide,

the IOC pressed ahead in Tokyo.

No fans, no families,

but also no mandate for athletes and

accompanying personal to be vaccinated.

Even if (as remains to be seen)

there are no widespread, or individually

tragic medical consequences,

a pall hangs over these games.

A pall that has commercial as well

as emotional consequences.

But the IOC bears almost none of the

burden of Tokyo's massive cost overruns,

or NBC's reduced ratings and revenues.

As written, the contractual risks

and rewards all favor the IOC.

And now, no sooner will Tokyo's already

flickering flame be extinguished,

than it will be on to The Winter Games

in February.

Where? In the skiing and skating

mecca of Beijing,

where lofty talk of the Olympic ideals

will ring particularly hollow.

Both Human Rights Watch

and Amnesty International

rank China as among the world's worst

human rights violators.

Given its population,

global influence,

and on-going brutal use

of government power,

China might actually rank first

on that wretched list.

An inconvenient fact by the way for

socially conscious American athletes

who sometimes offer sweeping

condemnations

of their own imperfect country,

while turning a blind eye

to the monstrous crimes

of a regime they, Nike, the NBA,

and other sports entities

are all in bed with

and are loath to offend.

And that most certainly includes

the IOC,

with its troubling affinity

for authoritarian regimes.

The 2008 Summer, and now 2022 Winter

Olympics, were granted to Beijing.

In between, the 2014 Winter Games

were in Sochi,

where Vladimir Putin's operatives

switched samples of Russian drug cheats

right under the noses of the IOC.

And Putin burnished his image

with his countrymen,

even as he readied to invade Ukraine,

as the Olympics were taking place.

But no matter. Regimes like Russia and

China answer to no one about anything.

And certainly not their investments

in the Olympics,

which include lavish accommodations

and other considerations

for Olympic officials.

Putin reportedly spent a ruble's

equivalent of 55 billion dollars

on the Sochi extravaganza,

which doesn't even Include

the cost of the cloak and dagger

operation that gave me pink eye.

Unlimited budgets Yeah, that's right,

thank you very much.

Unlimited budgets

combined with the other realities

of authoritarian countries,

lead to spectacular

opening ceremonies,

fewer organizational problems

for the IOC,

and who knows what other perks

for key IOC delegates,

many of whom are still peeved

at the United States

after a free press and congressional

investigation

blew the cover off the Salt Lake bid

scandal prior to the 2002 Winter Games.

Over the years, when I made these

and related points on the air

and put those questions

to the leaders of the IOC,

the answer always went

something like this:

"We believe the presence of the Olympic

Games in these countries"

"will moderate their behavior and

promote Olympic and democratic ideals."

How's that working out?

Granted, not every decision in some way

impacting the Olympics

is tied directly to the IOC.

Various national and international

governing bodies play a part.

Still, in the big picture,

here's where we are:

an Olympics forced upon its host city,

and the world,

during a pandemic, immediately

followed by another

held in a nation whose ongoing actions

are antithetical

to the supposed ideals of the Olympics

and the platitudes that surround them.

Seldom has the imperious nature

of the IOC

and its malleable definition of

principal been so starkly revealed.

Just so we have this straight, Sha'Carri

Richardson smokes a little weed

and she can't run in the Olympics.

But if your country is run

by an international thug,

or is guilty of widespread on-going

human rights abuses,

well then, your country can host

the Olympics.

We're back on the record next month.

See you then