01x03 - A New Motive

[bunniefuu]

[guitar music plays]

-[children chattering]

-[Dale] Going into the church.

And the little ones out here playing.

[chuckles]

Having fun.

-How's everybody doing?

-[man] Hey.

-How you doing?

-Good.

[Dale] Good to see you, bud.

-How you doing?

-My son, Quentin.

-Hey.

-Quentin, nice to meet you.

[Dale] Recently, my parole officer

just allowed me to start going to church.

I've been attending

for about six weeks now,

and it's a blessing to me.

-[man] Dale.

-Good to see you. How you doing?

-Greasy hand.

-It's okay.

It's okay. God bless you.

[Dale] I have waited

for this moment for a long time,

and these people understand that.

[crowd] Father, guide me

to make the right decisions,

and teach me to use my time

to accomplish the greatest good

and to strengthen this life of mine.

[woman over speaker]

I think it would be appropriate now, Dale,

if you'd come forward

and give us your testimony.

[Dale] I just wanna say that I'm grateful

for each and every one of you

that have given me an opportunity.

You've opened your hearts,

and you opened your church

and your lives to me.

[Dale] I wasn't strong enough

until three, four years ago

to be able to step forward

and admit who I was and what I was.

I went to court

for capital m*rder in 1990,

and ended up on death row for three years

for the life that I took

for someone trying to

blackmail me

into a h*m* relationship.

[Dale] Some people will think that

I shouldn't breathe another breath

after the moment that I took that life.

So, because I'm a m*rder*r,

I don't have the right to tell the truth?

I'm not concerned about the people

that want to speculate,

because the children

of God will understand.

[opening theme music plays]

[Dale] It's important

that people understand

that we have these trials and tribulations

that we go through in life.

And that day that I took that life,

I was taking my own,

I didn't wanna live anymore.

'Cause I was tired of living in that pain.

[ominous music plays]

[Dale] In my childhood,

I went through some things.

Being molested at the age of ten,

it scarred me and hurt me for life.

I was growing up with that

stigmatization of being molested.

It was hard.

It made me question about my sexuality

and who I was and am I really a man?

It was like the catalyst to

self-destruction

eventually 11 years later,

'cause I was running

from my demons and my fears.

And when I came to Texas,

it all started again.

The time around the m*rder,

I was really emotional.

I was really lost.

I was back on the intravenous drug,

sh**ting meth, cocaine.

And that's when I met John.

And, uh we became close friends.

He let me come over and shower,

you know, take a nap.

I confided in him and told him about,

you know, what I've been through,

and why I was living on the streets,

about being molested at ten.

You know, in time,

I trusted John. I got to know John.

I thought he was a really sincere,

good friend.

That one night

when I came over to his house,

I took a shower

and lay down. I fell asleep.

I woke up, he was on top of me.

I pushed him off of me.

I said, "What are you doing?"

I grabbed my stuff,

and that

that fear kicked in

of when I was ten.

I told him, "John, I befriended you, man.

What made you think

that I would want that?"

He told me, "Man, if you don't

If you don't agree,

I'm gonna tell everybody

that you were doing it anyway."

[ominous music continues]

I suppressed everything

for all my life, but

I reached my breaking point.

I befriended John

and then he tried to blackmail me

into a h*m* relationship.

I told him,

"I don't have nothing to live for."

I said, "If you do that,

I promise you I'll k*ll you."

And I meant that with all my heart,

because I didn't care about my own life.

Two days after John tried to abuse me

is when he made calls looking for me,

and I took that as a threat

that he was gonna tell people that

we had a sexual relationship,

which was a lie.

Because I may be a lot of things,

and I might even be a k*ller, a m*rder*r.

But I've never been a h*m*.

And I decided that

I was gonna fight back,

that I'd warned him.

And I was gonna fulfill

what I said I was gonna do.

[sinister music plays]

April 6th, 1990

I walked into that Subway sandwich shop.

And he said, "So, you decided

to come around and see it my way, huh?"

And I took the .45 out of my pocket,

I set it on the top of tabletop,

and I pushed it right in front of him,

and he started shaking, literally.

He was terrified.

[tense music builds]

I shot him six times in the chest.

Then when he fell,

I emptied the rest of the clip.

Shot him twice in the back of the head

as he lay there.

[dramatic music plays]

I question myself a lot

about how I let myself get in

that situation, that I would do that.

It's a dark place to be.

I mean, to be that broken.

I'll forever be paying for that.

I wish I would've never taken John's life.

No one deserved that.

That's why I haven't

forgiven myself to this day.

And people tell me I gotta get past it.

I gotta forgive myself.

It's not an easy thing to do.

You know, but I can't turn back

the hands of time.

All I can do is make my life account

of the matter now

and try to give back.

You know, my life has been

a torment of winds

and frustrations and tides

that kept pulling me out

deeper and deeper

That's why I wanna tell the story.

Give back.

I wanna help other people,

to let them know being molested

or being abused

or whatever you're going through.

You have to reach out to somebody

until somebody hears you.

I didn't do nothing

as a ten-year-old child

to warrant being molested,

but I held that my whole entire life.

I had nowhere to release it.

I had nowhere to go,

but that pain became

my process to my purpose,

to the vision that God has for me.

Because I know each

and every day that I live,

and that every breath that I take

is living proof

that miracles really can happen.

Thank you.

[audience] Amen!

[clapping]

[man]

I think it's a story of redemption and

we're all capable of being redeemed

if we go the right route.

I thought it was tremendous.

I can relate to Dale a whole lot,

'cause I was locked up myself

for 28 years flat

on an attempted m*rder case,

but I didn't do like Dale.

Dale got smart and found God

and all that stuff,

and I didn't. I was--

I just kept rebelling.

I think Dale is good, man.

He knows what he's talking about.

[indistinct chattering]

There's been a lot of blessings

since I've been out,

and a lot of people's hearts

have been softened.

That's the prayer I've had

since I've been out.

-Yeah.

-So, God's been making a way.

[Carole] Over these few months,

Dale has made a lot of progress.

He has won a lot of people over,

uh especially the church members.

They are just blown away by him

when he testifies

and tells them his story.

Dale is winning people over every

time he has the opportunity

to speak with them.

[knocking]

[Carole gasps] Hi!

-Come on in.

-[Dale] How y'all doing?

[Shannon] Pretty good.

-[Carole] This is Dale.

-How you doing?

Dale, this is my grandson, Shannon Junior.

-How you doing?

-[Carole] Jenny.

-[Carole] Cheyenne.

-[Dale] I appreciate you coming.

[Shannon]

I've been wanting to, been busy.

With me, what you see is what you get.

There's no question you can't ask

that I won't try to answer.

And I own who I am and what I am

and where I've come from.

-One thing I've never been

-He has nothing to hide.

is timid to the point of where,

you know, I won't answer a question.

[Jenny] Do you mind us asking like how?

-You wanna know how?

Back from when I was ten,

I was molested as a child,

11 years later, living on the street,

someone try to blackmail me

into a h*m* relationship.

And I told him,

"Where I'm at in life and in this time

if you do that, I'm gonna k*ll you."

I said, "'Cause all I have left is,

you know, my reputation,

and keeping my word

and being a decent individual",

you know?

And he thought it was a game.

-[Shannon] You shot him?

-[Dale] Yeah.

That night, I took two lives.

His and mine.

But it's by the grace of God

that I'm still alive.

[reflective piano music playing]

[Dale] Not everyone is gonna understand

or be receptive to my story,

because there's two types of people

in the world people are terrified of,

and that's murderers and child molesters.

And I'm a m*rder*r.

-[Carole] Too much cuteness.

-Good seeing you.

Gradually, people that got to talk to me

and converse with me and hear my story,

they generally see the man I am now.

Appreciate y'all coming.

-Don't be a stranger. Come on by.

-[Carole] Yeah, anytime.

-[Shannon] What do you think about him?

-He talks a lot. [chuckles]

I mean, yeah, he's been inside

-prison all his life.

-He's cool.

He's gonna talk.

Tell everybody his story

so everybody knows who he is.

Yeah, seemed like he learned

a lot in prison.

He was on drugs

and going through a rough time.

The guy also did something

to hurt him, too.

I'd probably do the same thing he would.

[ominous music plays]

[Dale over tape] Before the m*rder,

I was living on the streets,

and I met John Zeltner.

You know, I trusted John.

I got to know John.

I thought he was a really sincere,

good friend.

And then he tried to blackmail me

into a h*m* relationship.

I told him,

"I don't have nothing to live for."

I said, "If you do that,

I promise you I'll k*ll you."

If he's saying

that's what he believes today,

and still believes

that that was justified,

I'll be frank with you, I got problems.

I got concerns

uh

with society being exposed to

that type of irrational thought.

I'm not gonna call somebody a liar.

I don't know what's true or not.

I will say this:

That information, if that information

is true, and if it's accurate,

that should've been told to a jury.

And so, I'll be frank with you,

I wouldn't believe that on face value.

He's claiming, if I'm correct,

that he's being blackmailed

by an individual saying that he

um is g*y.

All right?

To me, I think it's rather ridiculous.

If someone wants to

uh claim that my lifestyle

is something other than it is,

I don't care. Go right ahead.

I know who I am.

What's that gonna do to me?

How is that gonna hurt me? All right?

I don't have a right to go take your life.

It's pretty extreme.

No, that's very extreme.

And, uh

it's really irrational.

Mr. Sigler is now reversing roles.

He has turned himself into the victim,

and John Zeltner into the bad guy.

And he's not a victim.

He is not a victim.

If he's a victim of anything,

he's a victim of himself

and of his own actions.

Nobody else.

Nobody in society is to blame

for what happened. Period.

Except himself.

You need to get on your knees

and not only thank your God.

Get on your knees and thank society

for that second chance.

Talking about how people

need to understand him.

Let me tell you something.

Society is giving you this second chance.

You need to be grateful.

You need to be humble.

Be accountable.

Quit making up excuses,

quit talking about it, move forward.

And now do what's right.

[ominous music plays]

[thunder booming]

[Dale] It's not about shifting blame.

It's about telling the truth.

I take full responsibility

for the life that I took

but try to understand

how I got to that point.

I couldn't see clearly.

I couldn't see a future.

I couldn't see a life.

All I seeing was the torment and the pain.

[interviewer] Was there nothing else

you could've done? Rather than k*lling?

People don't understand.

They always wanna talk about

what you could've done.

Hindsight is 20/20.

You know, what you could've done

and conjecture 30 years later,

that's a waste of time to me.

It doesn't resolve a situation.

It doesn't bring John's life back.

See, what people

don't want to understand is,

the pain and torment

that got you to that point

to where you would take a life.

[interviewer]

Why didn't you tell people at the time?

Why would I wanna tell people?

The times that I tried to reach out

and tell my attorney and tell people,

you know, it's like I was ridiculed.

I was told the first time

that I met my attorney,

"What are you?

The biggest idiot in the world?"

The judicial system

doesn't really wanna know.

My attorneys really didn't wanna know.

So, why would I wanna share with anyone?

Because I felt like there was no way

that anyone was gonna understand.

It didn't matter to me.

I just wanted it over.

I wanted to die.

[interviewer] Do you have resentment

towards g*y men, are you h*m*?

-How do you feel about people who are g*y?

-No.

I didn't k*ll him because he was g*y.

I've never been resentful or h*m*

or had any type of

issues with other people's

choices in life.

'Cause I'm not judgmental of people.

Do I believe in h*m*?

No, I believe it's abomination to God.

'Cause that's what the principles

of the word of God tell me.

That's what they teach me.

But your damned to live that life.

But I don't sit in judgment of people.

I love people in spite of.

So, no, as a child and even to this day,

I'm not judgmental.

I don't hate anyone for their beliefs

or their sexuality.

Never have.

But it seems other people

wanna sit in judgment of me

because I k*lled a h*m*,

trying to make it into a hate crime.

It wasn't about that.

[interviewer]

I wonder if he misread your signals.

There is no way

that you can misread my signals.

There is no way that you can misconstrue

the type of man that I was.

There's no way.

See, people think that there just--

Maybe there's something more

to this that we just don't know,

or maybe this is just

for five minutes of fame or,

maybe this is, you know,

trying to cover something else up, or

No, this is genuine.

This is exactly what happened

and the truth of the matter.

-[ominous music plays]

-[water trickling]

[Dale] I'm telling the story

not to villainize the individual,

not to make an excuse,

not to try to justify

what I've done.

I don't care what people say or what

they think or what they see anymore.

Because I know it's the truth.

[Greg]

It's the perfect cover,

because the person that can really tell

everybody what really happened is dead.

I guess it's pretty easy

to shift responsibility to a dead man

when he can't come forward and,

tell us probably

what really was the relationship

between

Dale Sigler and himself.

And even if you were to say

Sigler is telling the truth there,

that's not much of a reason

to go out and k*ll somebody.

Because of an attempted

h*m* liaison?

Come on. Give me a break.

Well, I suppose the question becomes,

is it a worse set of facts

that John Zeltner got k*lled because

Dale Sigler alleged he was a h*m*

and was blackmailing

Dale Sigler?

Or is it a worse set of facts

that he k*lled John Zeltner

uh, because he wanted to get money

for more drugs and more booze?

Either scenario is pretty damning,

I think.

You know, whatever spin

you wanna put on it,

there is one common denominator,

and that is John Zeltner is dead.

[reflective music playing]

I really have no idea if he's remorseful.

I hope he is.

I hope he thinks about every day

what he's done to my family.

There's no forgiveness.

I will never, ever forgive him.

He couldn't say or do anything to me

to bring my brother back.

Should I forgive him?

No, no.

Not at all.

Wouldn't change one bit if I thought

he was gonna be reformed.

I still feel the same way.

You know, what you did before,

you should pay for.

[Greg] I think anybody that's been

a prosecutor, defense lawyer, or a judge

for any amount of time

have asked the question:

"What is a fair punishment for m*rder?"

And

I will tell you that's

a very difficult question to answer.

I am comfortable with the sentence

that he received in this case.

Regardless of what people say,

thirty years in prison

is a boatload of time.

Dale has basically spent

almost 60% of his life in prison,

so

I'm okay with the sentence.

But he better not screw up again.

[rock music plays over radio]

Driving a car after 30 years,

it's a beautiful thing.

I waited a long time to be able to

get in my own automobile

and be able to drive

and take myself to work

and just enjoy life,

have the wind blowing in your hair,

you know, have the radio on.

Just being free.

And that's really what it's about.

[goat bleating]

[soft dramatic music plays]

[Dale]

I look forward to coming every day,

'cause it's a little bit, you know, quiet,

peace, tranquility.

I mean, being stuck in prison

with all that screaming and hollering,

you know, it's kind of frustrating.

Now you don't have to deal with that,

it's a relief.

Ain't nothing like a hard week of work,

come home with a pocket with money

and take a shower, sit down,

and eat dinner with someone you love.

You know, just talk about life.

Just enjoy life, you know?

We just take it for granted. I know I did.

You know,

every moment's precious now to me.

[Carole] I've been

kind of on my own for a while now.

And even though I like my privacy,

it's nice to have somebody else

to talk to and just pal around with.

So, we're having a good time.

Learning about things

about our pasts and each other

and enjoying it. Just enjoying it.

That's my yearbook from high school.

-I got this--

-That's when I was born.

-And? What are you trying to say?

-That's a good year.

-Oh, okay.

You should've had a good year that year.

Your picture in there?

-Yes.

-[cackles]

-Oh, cut it out!

-Yeah!

-[laughs]

-Cut it out.

[Dale] Yeah.

[Carole] Our relationship is still good.

We still love each other,

but yeah, we have our moments,

but we always kiss and make up.

You really wanna see

my picture?

Yeah, where is it?

-I ain't gonna tell you. [laughs]

-Ah.

You gots to find me.

[Carole] Dale is still a big kid at heart.

He gets goofy.

He's having fun,

and he's wanting to express

that happiness,

and he can only do it by being a big kid.

-Still ain't found me?

-You trying to stop me

-from getting your picture.

-I'm not.

-Yeah, you are.

-No, I'm not.

-No, I am not.

-Okay, I'm just saying.

[Dale] That's you?

-[Carole] Yep.

-Mama Carole, you beautiful.

-Still beautiful, but you was beautiful.

-[chuckles]

Well, thank you.

Dale] If I was 19 years old,

and in school with you then,

-I would've been chasing you.

-[Carole] Oh!

-You was gorgeous.

-Oh

You was gorgeous.

[Carole] I really didn't know

that much of the details

about the m*rder,

until we were sitting in the living room,

and I asked him about it.

When he told me what happened,

I was in a little bit of shock.

And then my heart broke even more,

because

I could see how much he was hurting.

So, I didn't change my opinion

of how I felt about him.

And no matter what, I got his back.

[wind rustling]

[soft piano music plays]

[Dale] Life at the moment is

pretty beautiful.

When you think back on it,

how far I've come,

what I've came through

I couldn't see this day coming.

To be in this moment

and just to be able to

smell the fresh air,

look at the clouds in the sky,

it's just

It's a beautiful day.

What is a fair punishment

for m*rder?

I know that I deserved this opportunity.

I know I've earned

this freedom.

After 30 years of incarceration,

I've paid my price. More than enough.

I've changed. I've grown. I've matured.

So, yeah, I deserve this.

I deserve opportunity,

just like anyone else.

[closing music plays]