01x03 - Vulnerability

[bunniefuu]

-MALE VOICE: All right, we're rolling.
-So, where's the camera?

Oh, you're not supposed to know,
you don't wanna know...

-No, the camera will find you.
-Oh, okay, great. I don't know.

-I haven't seen those two.
-The camera will find you.

-I wish I didn't get so nervous.
-About what?

-Constantly. No, it's just a thing.
-Nerves and excitement, same feeling.

Same thing. You're excited.

-I'm excited.
-You're excited.

-Yeah.
-Yeah. There you go.

Yeah.

ROBIN ROBERTS:
Something really special happens

when women connect,

share, dream, and inspire each other.

This is Turning the Tables.

This is what I...
This is why I wanted to do this.

Like, when would we
get together like this?

-When would we meet one another...
-BETSEY: I know, not for a while.

-...and have this time to kinda have...
-Yeah.

...not talking soundbites...

and not have a script
or anything like that.

-JOSIE: Yeah.
-I know. It's so...

-nervous making. [LAUGHS]
-ROBIN: No!

-We're not on, Robin.
-ROBIN: No!

Well, we gotta work
'cause we gotta start right now.

Okay, it's beginning.

-[LAUGHS]
-Where did the signature...

cartwheel ending in a split...

[ALL LAUGH]

-I'm supposed to save that for the finale.
-No, no.

-No.
-Ouch.

Well, I wanted to be an acrobat,
a Rockette.

I mean, you know, I was a good acrobat...

Anyway, at the end of a fashion show,

with my fourth husband,
it was a disaster,

-I had to be happy somewhere.
-[LAUGHS]

So I think my biggest happiness
was on the runway,

after the show finished
and I'd come out.

And I was so excited this one time

that I did my cartwheel round-off split
because that was...

that was the extreme happiness for me.

To be able to just... [SIGHS]
It became a thing for me, most of all,

and then it was enjoyed.

Ladies, do you know
that she was a cheerleader at Syracuse?

-Oh, I was their head cheerleader.
-[ALL LAUGH]

Hey, I was the head cheerleader.

-Excuse me, head cheerleader.
-Yeah, head cheerleader.

And went with the quarterback.

-Oh I... Of course you did.
-[BETSEY LAUGHING]

Of course you went
with the quarterback.

-We wouldn't expect anything less.
-Yeah, I just...

Cheerleading to me was the beginning
of the next phase,

which I really wanted to be, a Rockette.

And that's what you did,
you're a fashion Rockette.

[LAUGHS]

-Exactly. Thank you.
-MELISSA: Yeah.

You created this.

-Melissa, that's the best explanation.
-Well, there you go.

ROBIN: Let's see here now, Josie,

we have to add...

-"producer" to your resume.
-Oh.

Miss ma’am.

-[CLEARS THROAT]
-MELISSA: Ooh!

Don't gas me too much.
Do not gas me too much.

-[ROBIN LAUGHING]
-My mom will be very mad.

Still have to do the dishes,
help with the chores...

But how is that
to add that to your vast accomplishments?

Well, I had come to a point where
I had never played a trans character...

at this magnitude before.

And, in my heart, I knew
I wouldn't be able to tell the story

authentically, if it wasn't represented
behind the scenes.

Everyone always asks me
what can we do to evolve,

we've come so far, but how can we
continue to change and become better?

And I think that is representation
behind the camera as well.

And getting to serve in this role
has been such an incredible opportunity.

I've always wanted
to write and tell stories,

and to tell this story authentically,

and I thought that it was necessary
to be a producer

and have that seat at the table.

And I wouldn't be able to get it done
if I wasn't.

So I was so grateful
that Tracey Wigfield, our showrunner,

was able to offer me this great role,

for me to be able to tell the story
as truthful as possible.

And the fact that you were able
to do that and were given the latitude.

So grateful. It's been amazing.

As a trans person, I feel like,
love and support,

so often, is very few and far between,
doesn't come that much.

So, as someone
who's received so much support,

I feel so immensely privileged.

-Melissa, tell me about Etheridge TV.
-[MELISSA LAUGHING]

-Have you learned all the equipment yet?
-Oh, my God.

I'm looking around going,
"This is luxury."

But we had soundproofed our garage,

couple of years before for something,
but I didn't...

I wasn't using it for anything,
and it was all dirty.

And I said,
"I'm gonna make this a streaming studio."

It was so therapeutic to just go...
Me and my wife, nobody else.

And we cleaned it, we decorated it,
I learned about streaming,

I learned about cameras,
I learned about lights,

I'm looking at this going,
"Ah, that would be a great light,"

you know. I learned about sound
and lights

and it fed me, it really did.

How have your family members loved
and supported you

-through everything?
-They're amazing. They're so great.

I mean,
everything I am is because of them.

Not to sound like a soapbox but,
I mean, I love them so much.

And they have supported me since day one
in ways that I'm like,

I can't even imagine as a parent
how hard that would be for me

not knowing any trans people,
any LGBTQ+ people,

and living in this super upper echelon,
weird suburb,

and then having their kid be like,
"I'm a girl, Mama."

-[ALL LAUGH]
-[LAUGHS] Can you imagine?

But my mom handled it
with so much grace

and so much compassion,

and it's funny, because people
always refer to me as,

like, "When did you come out?"
Because so often it’s like,

you know, there's like,
a coming out talk or whatever.

And it's such a great privilege
that I never really came out.

It's just been a constant conversation
between me and my family

and it really was me,
just sort of telling the world,

as opposed to me actually coming out
and just being like, "Hey, by the way..."

-Yeah, I've been really blessed.
-But it's neat that...

Yeah, I love your family.

And your dad, in particular.
Do not call him a stage dad.

-He's not!
-He's into it but he's like...

-be very clear.
-He is no stage dad.

-Your dad was really important to you.
-Aw, my dad.

-ROBIN: Wasn't he?
-We love dads.

-ROBIN: Yeah.
-Supportive dads are so important.

Yes.

I find that the most successful women
have really great dads, you know.

-JOSIE: Hmm.
-Yeah, I mean, I don't know about your...

No, no sure.

Yeah, he was... I grew up in Kansas...

-JOSIE: Hmm.
-...and in the Midwest.

And he was a basketball coach,
and a high school teacher.

And he... Not a stage dad, no.
But he would drive me to all my gigs.

He would...
I used to play in country western bands

and cover bands and stuff,
and he'd drive me.

So he supported me and was like,

you know, "Why not you? Good luck,"
you know.

-And that's enough.
-ROBIN: Yeah.

As long as they don't tear you down,
you know.

No, my dad was a Tuskegee Airman.
First Black flying Air Corps

-in the military.
-MELISSA: Oh, God!

He was... Man, he was my world.

I know your daughter has been
so instrumental in your life.

Lulu, my little Lulu.

You know, she was with me for...
I mean, we have not ever separated.

-That's how close we are.
-ROBIN: Hmm.

And, I mean, I left...
when I was six months pregnant.

I knew being a single mom
was gonna be so much better.

But... Yeah, we're so...

Something happened
about six, eight months ago,

where all of a sudden...

the... [GRUNTS] ...the... [GRUNTS]
...the...

-All that kind of went away.
-Yeah.

And we are just...

I mean, there's always been
that constant closeness,

but I don't know, somehow,
it's... it's... kinder.

When it stopped being competitive,
it turned into

just the best family and the best life.

-And I think I'm happier than ever before.
-ROBIN: Yeah.

I'm sure that you are.
You live in California.

-No.
-[BETSEY LAUGHING]

But it's good to have
the support that we've had.

What's the best advice
from a family member?

Oh, I just remember my father
saying...

"Just be happy."

-Which was... Sometimes that's...
-Mm-hmm.

...really difficult advice.

-Yeah.
-MELISSA: Be happy.

And my father said,
"Well, as long as you're self-sufficient."

[CHUCKLES] I thought,
"Well, there you go, I'm self-sufficient."

And as long as I made enough money
for me to get by,

I've been self-sufficient all my life.
I mean, since I was 12,

-I've been making money.
-ROBIN: Mm-hmm.

It just really stuck with me.
It wasn't like, you have to do this,

you have to just rely on yourself.

And I go now further
than just monetary stuff.

Now, it's self-sufficient in my own joy
and in my happiness.

That it doesn't...
I don't rely on anyone else.

They don't have to be a certain way
for me to be happy.

-JOSIE: Mm.
-And that leads to a much happier life.

And then when you come
to that realization,

that's when you have
kinda like that "ah-ha" moment.

And not needing from anybody else,
that it comes from within.

ROBIN: When I think about
the three of you, myself included,

-allowing ourselves to be vulnerable.
-Hmm.

And vulnerability is something
that you could look at one way

or another. I tend to say,
"It's a strength, it's not a weakness."

What does vulnerability
mean to you, Josie?

You know, growing up as a child
that has been on a few screens,

that people have seen...
[ROBIN LAUGHING]

...it's something
that I'm sort of forced to do.

I'm forced to be vulnerable...

because my face is out there
to some extent.

And I think it's allowed me
to accept myself in a much greater way

than I would if I didn't have that on me,
if I didn't have the pressure

to just be honest and show myself.

There are so many photos of me,
I'm sure we can many relate,

on the Internet...

-[ALL LAUGH]
-...that we're not the most proud of,

-specifically me being...
-[SIGHS]

-We're all looking around.
-JOSIE: Right.

Specifically me
being an entirely different person.

There's so many images and even shows
and episodes of me...

being someone that I don't identify with.

And I think, that's been difficult,

but it's also forced me
to really accept myself.

So, I've turned vulnerability
into a strength,

which I think is the goal.

-Right? So...
-Yeah. It pays to...

But I've heard you say it's courage.

Yeah, vulnerability is courage.

And you can't have courage
without vulnerability.

A lot of people think,
"No, you gotta be courageous

"and not vulnerable,
you've gotta close it up."

But my most courageous moments,
as I'm sure you all are,

is the moments when you're like,

"Okay, I gotta be vulnerable
and show myself."

And... I have

so many people who say,
"Coming out was courageous,"

you know, "Standing up bald with..."
"Going through cancer, courageous."

When you got on that stage.

-[LAUGHS]
-Bald and, I mean...

But it's just being yourself,
and that's vulnerability.

And I don't know what it says
about us as a society,

that being yourself
is the most courageous thing.

But, you know, yet...

it's where all the good juice
in life is, right there.

So now, when it comes to me,
I'm like, I'm ready for it.

I'm ready to learn this lesson,
to grow through the vulnerability,

to find the courage on the other side.
That people are going to say,

"Oh, that was so courageous."

When you performed, India Arie saw you.

-Oh, I know.
-And she wrote her song,

-"I Am Not My Hair" because she saw.
-I know.

-You inspired that great song.
-I know.

I saw her about three months after that
at some event.

And she come up to me, and she goes,

-"You inspired me so much from that...
-[LAUGHS]

"...I wrote about you."

And the funny this was, all my life
I've been writing songs about women,

and I always thought what would it feel
like to have a song written about me.

And that song brought me to my knees.
It brought me to my knees.

And I was so grateful, going,
"There you go, that's the kind of song

-"I want to..." I know.
-"I am not my hair, I'm the soul within."

Oh, it was beautiful.

But there are sometimes
that you choose not to be.

I mean, like you, like the two of us,
had a journey with cancer.

-And at first...
-And open heart surgery, a couple weeks...

-Yikes!
-A couple of weeks ago, no.

-A couple of years ago.
-[ROBIN LAUGHING]

-BETSEY: Oh, yeah!
-I was like, "Couple of weeks ago"?

-What else? I'm here.
-ROBIN: I know.

[ALL LAUGHING]

But with the cancer,
you chose initially not...

-Oh, yeah. And you had your reasons.
-Oh, yeah.

I couldn't go to work everyday
with people crying.

I think the strokes
were a little more weird.

A great, great doctor found out
the old ticker

-ain't working like it should.
-[LAUGHS]

-So, yeah. [MUMBLES]
-MELISSA: Wow!

That was a biggie.

Health is such a funny thing,
it moves us into what we need to overcome

-or be vulnerable about...
-ROBIN: Yeah. Yeah.

And you really start to realize
how connected

our own emotional life is to our health.

Yeah.

Have any of you ever felt
like, "I'm sharing too much,"

or "I'm being too vulnerable,"
or, "I'm not being vulnerable enough"?

Have you ever had a moment
like that, Josie, that you were...

I feel that if only I had someone
that looked like you,

that was like, had a platform
where they did speak about something,

if only I had that, I would've had
such an easier childhood.

-Then you wouldn't be the trailblazer.
-I wouldn't be the trailblazer.

We wouldn't be the ones in the front.
[LAUGHS]

And so I guess, I'm preventing people
from being trailblazers,

-by being so vocal.
-MELISSA: Yeah.

But, no, I wanna be that person
for those people...

-MELISSA: It gets lonely.
-Yeah, it does get lonely.

And scary, we don't know
if we are talking too much.

Maybe... Is this sharing too much?
Are people gonna get tired of this?

Are we not sharing enough?
It's this constant duality of...

And everyone has their own experience,
and they're not gonna all feel

-the same way I do...
-JOSIE: Yeah.

...and all you can do
is just be who you are

-and hopefully be an example.
-For sure, I agree with you.

Yeah, it's difficult.
Speaking for yourself

-but also speaking for people.
-MELISSA: Yeah.

But you don't know how everyone feels.
So, yeah.

How would you deal with that?
How do you deal with the criticism?

Because you, myself included,
we put ourselves out there.

We're passionate about what we do,
we love what we do,

we're abundantly blessed,
we're not complaining at all.

And we have social media
which will humble all of us. [LAUGHS]

But how do you handle that?

I believe, my cancer...



really brought me to a...
I guess what we call now

a spiritual understanding.
That this emotional place of,

I live in a world with other beings.

Yet, my world is created
and manifested through me.

So, if I can...

can hold myself in a way that feels,

that lines up with that kind part of me,
that solid part of me,

and make my choices from there.
And go to sleep at night and go,

"Hey, you know what?
I did the best I could today."

If I can do that every day then...

it doesn't really matter.

What anyone else thinks of me
is not my business.

-Yeah.
-So that's all I can do and believe.

Like social media, I love Twitter,
but sometimes it'll slap you in the face.

-Right.
-MELISSA: There's nothing I can do.

That's that person's problem,
that's not my problem.

I'm going to bed tonight going,
"I did the best that I could do."

-You have autonomy over your mind.
-MELISSA: Yeah, you just have to.

A lot of that's age.
You know, you really gotta go through...

-JOSIE: I know.
-...a lot of stuff.

-You know what I mean?
-[ALL LAUGH]

I should be the wisest here, right?

-ROBIN: It just doesn't matter.
-I'm definitely twice everybody's age.

-I'm 78.
-Nice!

And I feel better 'cause I grew up
such a worrywart.

-MELISSA: Yes.
-Really, you?

-BETSEY: Totally me.
-That'll wear your heart down.

ROBIN: You? You?

MELISSA: Oh, yeah. I told you,
I'm still scared, the excitement.

But worry, worry, worry.
All the love in the world

from the family and the friends,

but a worrywart.
It just ran in our family.

And finally, I don't care.

If I'm waking up in the morning,

-doing my best, and that's all there is.
-MELISSA: Yeah. Yeah.

And, yeah, it's great. To be scared
and be excited is one thing,

but to put the worry away...

"Am I liked? Do I talk too much?"

-[MUMBLES]
-JOSIE: Yeah.

And that's all about what other people
think of us when we...

-BETSEY: And we care so much.
-And after a while, you're like...

-We will never make everybody like us.
-It's exhausting.

-We have to try and do that.
-It's not gonna happen, yeah.

You gotta give up on it, you really do.

Yeah, when you mentioned vulnerability
as, kind of, being yourself,

and you were saying
why would that be so hard,

and I think it's 'cause the world tells us

that we need to be something
that we're not.

And so when you accept yourself,
and you are vulnerable,

I feel like that's when you really step
into your true self.

And you change the world.
When we change, when we are ourselves,

that changes the world.

And isn't there... a freedom...

that comes with that?
When you allow yourself...

to be who you are, to speak your truth,
you're not holding anything back.

-I have never felt more free.
-MELISSA: There you go.

And things that I used to worry about,
"Oh, people know that I'm g*y."

Or, you know, and I'm a Christian,
and they're gonna think,

"How can you be a Christian and g*y?"
And all that.

-All this needless worry.
-[ALL LAUGH]

And then,
there's nothing that no one...

-does not know about me. And that's okay.
-MELISSA: Yeah.

And I do keep some things.

But for the most part...
But don't you feel

that there is freedom that comes
from living your life, living your truth?

One hundred percent. One hundred percent.

Because otherwise, it's worry.

Otherwise, you're worrying.
You're putting in,

"Oh, this person's gonna think that,"
and you'll just wear yourself down.

-JOSIE: Yeah.
-It just doesn't work.

I've gone through that.

I'm still trying
to work my way out of that.

Just stopped worrying
about what other people think.

I, myself, have...
I consider myself faithful.

I went to a Catholic high school,
and I remember,

the last day that I started not worrying
and I stopped caring,

I showed up with my lash extensions on.

-And I got a little highlights.
-[LAUGHS]

And I walked right in and I was like,
"Good morning," to our lovely Father.

And he was like, "You look happy."

-MELISSA: Aw.
-Oh.

And I was like, "Yeah, I actually am.
I think I'm starting to be."

So it's funny how you worry so much
about what people will say

and then you actually listen to yourself
and you stop caring,

-and that's when people see you.
-Yeah.

JOSIE: And, yeah,
I just think that's so great.

-ROBIN: I love that he did that.
-JOSIE: Yeah.

And correct me if I'm wrong,
but I thought I read somewhere

where you said,

some people who feel that they are born
in the wrong body.

But you said, "No." That God intended you
to be a transgender girl.

Yeah, I feel that. I feel that very true.

And I feel that with everything in my life
that there's a plan,

that there are no mistakes
and that can only be proven true

because of who I am,
because of where I am today,

with all of you, it's meant to be.
And I'm grateful for that

because I think that keeps me
from not going crazy,

if I didn't think that everything
is meant to be. But of course, I mean,

you know,
maybe He put in some bumps in the road

for all of us.
These were just my bumps.

But it lead me to the person I am,

and it allowed me
to begin to fulfill this purpose

that I feel we are all ordained to do.
And I'm so grateful for it.

Thank you. So... [GRUNTS]

-So proud of you. I just wanna...
-Yeah. [LAUGHS] I know.

-JOSIE: Thank you.
-At your tender age.

-Yeah.
-You know?

-Wow. Wow.
-Really great. Really inspirational.

And I feel to be here
with all of you resilient women,

who are so inspiring and so courageous,
it definitely... it gives me the fuel,

-and hope.
-Well, thank you.

At this point, I figure,
that maybe those bumps,

that that's what it's supposed to be,

that life, because every time we come up
against those bumps,

on the other side
of it's some really great stuff.

-Growth and freedom, like you said.
-I know. Everybody's got something.

-Oh, yeah, everyone.
-All of us have a different...

-I've met everybody.
-[ALL LAUGH]

And I've not met a perfect person at all.

No, no, no.
And I don't wanna be the perfect person.

I know.
No, that would be incredibly boring.

How have you been able to,
with the great loss of your son...

Melissa, you've been so open
in your hopes of helping other families.

You know, I had my years of coming out
and being open,

and then having children
and being open about that,

and then having cancer,
and you're open.

I'm like, I am open, and I am out.
And then, the last couple of years,

my son went down this just dark, sad road

of opioid addiction.
And knowing that people go through this

all the time,
and are going through this now,

I said, "I need to, again,
turn this into something positive,

"something where I feel like
I can get to the other side of this bump.

"This place
where there's understanding

"and peace, and gratitude,
'cause I know it's there."

And so, I've just been walking that now,
week to week.

It's only been a few months now.

Well, thank you for the work
that you're doing.

-JOSIE: It's so incredible.
-Getting the message out there.

-You know?
-Universe just puts me right...

I'm like, "Okay, all right.
I'll be there."

No arguing with that.

And where has the universe put you,
missy girl?

I mean, your spirit...

[LAUGHS]

I just got into a thing
of always dressing for myself,

of designing and making everything
that I would love to wear.

Just all by myself in my little closet.
I'm like, "I like this." But...

And I used to be scared,
"Oh, my God, I don't know anyone my age,

"what am I supposed to be like,
look like, feel like."

And then I just decided,
"Why don't I just be me?"

-MELISSA: Yeah.
-And, yeah.

I like to go backwards,
better than forwards.

And I'm going forwards
doing what I love doing, backwards.

-And now, I'm doing a revival.
-[EXCLAIMS]

Totally in control of this one.
I get to do pure Betsey,



-But the '80s were my rock and roll.
-Oh, yeah.

I'm really happy to be
in this revival phase.

-Because it was my best work.
-Absolutely.

In the '80s, I was in my 20s,
walking around Melrose

and you were breaking all traditions.
We were layering stuff,

we were putting lace with leather,
we were doing all this stuff.

And then, ultimately,
what that allowed me to do was go,

"I don't have to wear clothes
to look like something.

"I'm gonna wear clothes
that feel good inside."

-BETSEY: Exactly.
-"That make me feel good inside."

That's why I am around, was around,
because I just wanted communication.

-Artists like you... Yeah.
-BETSEY: My girls.

-MELISSA: We're doing that.
-You know, you sing to people...

-I have some clothes. It's very different.
-There you go.

-To allow us to be ourselves.
-Yup. No rules.

-MELISSA: No rules, no excuses.
-I mean...

JOSIE: Yeah.

Which is what's so amazing about you
and everything that you've done,

even you talked about, in the '80s,
but I, unfortunately, was not around

in that wonderful time.

[ALL LAUGH]

It was a good time.

I can speak for even the early 2000s,
your brand was such a landmark.

And was so freeing. And even as someone
who didn't quite know who I was,

I always felt comfortable
with everything you brought.

I remember having
my little Betsey suitcase.

-MELISSA: Aw.
-[LAUGHS]

And rolling that around the airport,
and little things like that

bring you closer to just feeling yourself.
Or at least that's how it was with me.

And it just made me feel comfortable
and free,

and I love everything that you stand for.

Yay.

I love it when whatever I do
brings happiness.

-MELISSA: Yeah.
-That's what it's all about.

-Amen.
-ROBIN: Amen.

Thank you, all.
Thank you for the time.

This has really been...
We don't have a chance to do this,

but to just have a conversation
amongst ourselves

and to see that on the surface,
we may look different,

-but we're not.
-BETSEY: Mm-mm.

There's always that...

-Yeah.
-...commonality

that brings us all together.

-And, so, let's be. Let's be.
-JOSIE: Sure.

Thank you, ladies. Thank you very much.

-JOSIE: I love that. Thank you.
-Thank you.

-What an honor.
-Thank you for bringing us together.

-Yeah!
-So great to meet you.

I did a cattle call for Fame, the TV show.

-No!
-I swear to God.

And I went all the way up,

and it was between me
and one other person.

And Debbie Allen,
she pulled me aside and said,

"Well, you're not gonna get the part,

"because the other person
is Michael Jackson's sister."

So she says, "But you're gonna make it.
Just keep going.

-"You've got what it takes."
-I love when people do that.

And I took it to heart. I went like,
"Debbie Allen thinks I can make it.

"I'm gonna make it." [LAUGHS]

-I love that.
-See ya, Janet.

Yeah, exactly. Good luck.