01x03 - Part Three: It's A Good Life If You Don't Weaken

[bunniefuu]

[producer]

In five, four, three, two, one, cue.

[audience cheering]

Thank you! Ladies and gentlemen,

from Kingston, Ontario, Canada,

home of Kirk Muller, Walter Frank High

and me,

it is my honour to introduce to America,

my friends, The Tragically Hip.

[audience cheering]

["Grace Too" playing]

[Sinclair]

It's a pretty nerve-wracking event.

Even the sound check

and the run-through in the afternoon,

literally, we were like, "Holy f*ck!"

So, the geniuses that we are, we thought,

"Well, maybe we should just smoke

a bit of a reefer before we go, you know?

It's never hurt us in the past."

[Dan]

I'm sure it wasn't the only substance

that had been done in that dressing room.

Hey, any way you loosen up, man!

SNL's a pressurized gig.

[Paul] I remember thinking, "I shouldn't

have taken three or four hits,

I should've just taken one."

Live and learn.

Sometimes, it's not the best idea

if you're super nervous.

["Grace Too" continues]

I said I'm Tragically Hip ♪

[audience cheers]

Come on, just let's go! ♪

Instead of "I'm fabulously rich,"

Gord said, "I'm Tragically Hip."

[Sinclair] Gord misses the first lyric,

but on a legendary scale.

And I think he started the song like that

probably for the rest of our career.

"We're the Tragically Hip!"

I thought that was

a pretty clever introduction to America.

There'll be no knock on the door ♪

I can guarantee ♪

I'm total pro ♪

There'll be no knock on the door ♪

[Dan] I told Lorne,

"I'll come back and do the show,"

but the bargaining chip was, you know,

"I gotta have The Hip.

It just has to happen."

And the audience reaction was outstanding.

It was a night of triumph, no doubt.

Just a beautiful night.

[Rob] We played, in eight minutes,

to more people

than we'd played to

in our whole career put together.

[George] Seeing my two favourite songs

being played on Saturday Night Live,

being introduced by

one of the f*ck' Blues Brothers?

I kinda feel like Canadian rock,

that was it.

Thank you to Tragically Hip,

Mr. George

Today on Break This, we have a band.

And this is not just any ordinary band.

This is The Tragically Hip.

[Jake] "Day for Night" comes out

and it blows up.

We were on a real upward trajectory.

We're headlining Maple Leaf Gardens

for the first time.

"Day for Night" was the first arena tour,

where we officially said, "Okay,

we're gonna play arenas in every market."

-It's Maple Leaf Gardens.

-[Gord] MLG.

Some day it's gonna be MSG.

[Rob] Headlining Maple Leaf Gardens,

where the Beatles played

and Elvis played one of two shows

outside of the U.S.

Saw a lot of hockey games in there,

so you can't imagine the thrill.

[Dave] Grant, go dark, please.

Grant, go dark, please.

[audience cheering]

["Fire in the Hole" playing]

You had immunity to k*ll ♪

You had your dreams fulfilled ♪

And I love you still ♪

But there's a power beyond control ♪

There's a fire in the hole ♪

Ah, the nights are getting cold

All your secrets will be told ♪

Turn your lanterns low ♪

[Rob] There were a couple of moments

on that tour

where the crowds would get so loud

that you couldn't hear anything

happening on stage.

I got my amp cranked up

and my guitar is cranked up

and I'm stepping on any volume pedals,

anything to get through the din.

I thought, "God, just for a second,

I know what it must've been like

to be in the Beatles."

But there's a power beyond control ♪

There's a fire in the hole ♪

Yeah, the nights are getting cold

All his secrets will be told ♪

Turn your lanterns low ♪

[Mark] g*ns N' Roses,

Aerosmith, Bon Jovi, INXS.

You name the bands that were doing

arena-level business then.

And when I would see The Hip,

I'd put them in that same pantheon.

[Johnny]

There was this swell that happened

during "Day For Night."

We did craziest tours.

[man] You're gonna be touring with Page

and Plant. How do you feel about that?

Doing 15 dates with them

and hopefully get to meet them.

The first night of the tour they asked us

to come to their dressing room.

Robert Plant said, "I learned about you

through an old girlfriend,

and she turned me onto you,

and I got "Fully Completely."

Then I went back

and got the first two records

and I loved them and

I've bought every record since then."

And Jimmy Page said, "We really dig

you cats, we dig what you're doing."

And we were like,

"Wow, f*ck' Jimmy Page."

Were you big Led Zeppelin fans

when you were growing up?

You know we were.

[Jake] And then, we get four shows

with The Stones.

[Sinclair] When we're playin' with a group

like the Rolling Stones,

lookin' over at Robbie, thinkin',

you know,

if the 16-year-old us down in

the basement of his mom and dad's house

could see us now. You know?

Thank you.

Musicians love us,

Page, Plant loved us.

We have a reputation.

We played Saturday Night Live.

And now we're making

"Trouble at the Henhouse."

-[producer speaking indistinctly]

-[hens clucking]

Does anybody have hens in the band?

[Mike] I mean, there could be.

It's a metaphor, man. It's gotta be.

Paul Langlois could be

the biggest hen rocker in Canada.

Yeah, maybe.

[guitar music]

[Paul] "Trouble at the Henhouse,"

that was really our first record

that we were doing at our studio

at the Bathouse.

[Gord]

Welcome to the Bathouse.

All you people

in all those movie-ators out there.

This is our home, thank you. Welcome.

[Johnny] We'd just purchased a house

in Bath, and it was exciting.

It was exciting to be building it

and makin' a record at the same time.

I mean, it was the ultimate clubhouse.

[Jake]

Because they owned their own studio,

and because it was

just outside of Kingston,

there wasn't the sense of urgency

that we had to go in and get out,

that the clock was ticking,

'cause there was no clock.

[Rob] We'd worked with

a few producers by that point.

Self-producing seemed like

the next logical step.

[random instruments playing]

We had the list of songs

that we were working on

and you always sort of have

an A list and a B list.

The A ones are like,

these songs are working.

And then, B list are the songs

that you're trying to improve.

And on the B list

was "Ahead by a Century."

["Ahead by a Century"]

It was Paul's music and Gord's lyrics.

And we didn't feel that involved

in the song the way it was.

So, one night, after everyone left

the studio, I said to Johnny,

"Why don't you stick around

and we'll work on that song

and see if we can't get something

to happen?"

I had an open string guitar part

and Johnny worked up a thing

on a LinnDrum.

The song lifted right away.

["Ahead by a Century"]

With illusions of someday ♪

Cast in a golden light ♪

No dress rehearsal ♪

This is our life ♪

"No dress rehearsal. This is our life."

That's what you gotta do.

You gotta make the most of it.

[Sinclair] As the lyric evolves and stuff,

then you realize,

"Wow, we're working on a good song."

-And that's where the hornet stung me ♪

-That's when a hornet stung me ♪

-And I had a feverish dream ♪

-I had a feverish dream ♪

With revenge and doubt ♪

-Tonight, we smoke them out ♪

-Tonight, we smoke them out ♪

[DJ] First single from the new album,

it's called "Ahead by a Century"

and it features some great backing vocals

by Paul Langlois.

[Gord] Yeah, Paul's singing is amazing

and it totally elevated that song.

You know, we've been friends

for a long time

and we used to sort of sing together

in high school.

And I think, 'cause we have

such a friendship,

such a bond with each other,

that it's just singing together

is like, um, entirely natural.

It's just a dialogue.

[Rob] It felt like all the things that our

band was about kind of coming together.

It's sometimes a struggle to find your way

into a song,

but you find a way to make a contribution

and make it better, make it a band song.

[Bernie] The special sauce

really is the five guys.

Take any one of these members

away from this band, there is no Hip.

You are ahead by a century ♪

This is our life ♪

-You are ahead by a century ♪

-This is our life ♪

You are ahead by a century ♪

"Ahead by a Century" brought Canada

to their knees in a different way.

And I saw that this band

had a lot more going for it

than being a big rock concert band.

And then the day began ♪

I tilted your cloud ♪

You tilted my hand ♪

[Dave] It was the final song

that they ever played as a band.

It was the final notes

that The Tragically Hip

ever rang out across Canada.

I think there's no question that it's

pretty much the second Canadian anthem.

["Ahead by a Century"]

[Jake] The record company

hears "Ahead by a Century" and goes,

"Holy sh*t, like,

we got a real song here."

And the head of the Canadian

record company comes to me and says

We want you to play the Tower Records

opening, downtown Toronto, on the rooftop.

We'll make it a huge media event.

We will be able to get

"Trouble at the Henhouse"

prioritized at Tower Records

all around the world.

The U.K., Japan, the U.S.

We'd be front-racked in so many stores.

And that this would advance us in the U.S.

[Jake]

So, we're set up now.

All we have to do is play

on the roof of Tower Records.

[Randy]

And the band said, "You know, Randy,

we buy our records at Sam the Record Man.

You know, we're loyal to Sam's."

[Jake]

Which was a Canadian chain.

We had a big problem with that.

You know, multinational companies

coming into Canada.

Like, we were Sam the Record Man guys.

[Paul] So, it was kinda like,

"Are we selling out to the Man,

and you know, doing all that?"

Ninety-nine out of 100 bands

would have pulled their knickers down

for an opportunity like this.

And yet, they sat at me, straight faced,

and they went, "Respectfully no."

[laughs]

[Rob] Maybe we'd pumped the brakes

a little more than was necessary.

We were never so big

on these record store promotion things.

It didn't feel right for us.

[Sinclair] Had we done this gig,

maybe the record company

would've participated a little bit more

and things may have been different.

But should we have played that gig? No.

[Jake]

The crazy thing about it, you know,

Sam's in Canada had their own magazine,

called Network Magazine.

Network Magazine comes out and

it's that illustration of Gord on a cross

at the US/Canada border.

And it was like one of these

typical Canadian media,

caring about, "Oh, we

have not broken huge in the U.S. yet."

And yet, they were helping

perpetuate that.

[Rob]

Jesus, that's disturbing.

Never seen that before.

Sam's had no f*cking clue

that we had basically turned down

playing for Tower

because they said, "We shop at Sam's,

and we need to support

our Canadian retailers."

[Paul] Any article that was talking about

us not being successful in the States,

I always felt was bullshit. It's like,

"Why don't you come out on tour with us?"

They're probably writing those articles

while we were down

playing multiple nights at Irving Plaza

and the 9:30 Club,

or State Theatre in Chicago.

So, f*ck them.

["Gift Shop"]

The beautiful lull ♪

[laughing]

The dangerous tug ♪

We get to feel small ♪

From high up above ♪

[Randy] This is a band

that could have sold out to America

15 times, off the top of my head,

and they chose to say no

because they wanted to have the integrity

of their conviction.

So, what are you gonna do?

Punish them for that?

Looking at The Tragically Hip and saying,

"But what about America?"

I just thought it was so weak.

[host] It seems the only thing tragic

about The Hip

is their failure to crack the U.S. market

in a big way.

Even after the release

of "Trouble at the Henhouse,"

a more mainstream disc

full of catchy hooks,

the question remains unanswered.

Why do you think

that the American public

hasn't quite gotten

the Tragically Hip yet?

Maybe they were never meant to.

And you don't think

that got in their f*ck' heads?

Every human being is deeply affected

by everything said to them,

and they said it to them

all the time.

[Gord]

I'm the guy out there living it, you know.

And someone sort of saying,

basically, "Does this bum you out?

You know, when I pick this scab,

does it hurt?"

I just did three interviews, and

all three people I did interviews with

said their editors wanted

the main thrust of the story

to be the canyon that exists

between our success in Canada

and our success in America.

[Sinclair] This kind of stuff

has dogged us all along,

and it's dogged a lot of Canadian bands.

One of the things in the Canadian

character to be admired the least

was our desperate, cloying need

to succeed outside of here

in order to be even kind of respected,

or taken seriously,

or worth being paid attention to.

[Dallas] It didn't matter

if you were popular in Canada.

It was like,

"What's America think of you?"

And I watched tons of bands

go through that, just as a fan of them,

and then, I went on to experience it

from my own perspective.

[video game g*nf*re]

[Denise]

The reality is, we live beside

the biggest cultural exporter

on the planet.

It's almost like

we're up against the glass.

We're at the game, we're not in it.

And then, you had a band like the Hip

and Gord going like,

"Hey, we don't need to do that.

We don't have to sing

for our supper anymore, man.

We're cool right where we are.

And we don't need to get it validated

by them."

[Sinclair]

People look on us as a cautionary tale

and a tale of failure

in the United States.

I take exception to that,

because we enjoyed an amazing career

in the United States.

[Sam] We've been down there.

We toured with them in the States.

To put it in context, The Hip

played the best rooms in America.

They weren't playing at the arenas

necessarily,

but they played at all the clubs

where any band worth their salt

would want to play.

Any band would be quite happy with

The Hip's career in the United States.

It's just that they

became so iconic in Canada

that you weren't gonna mirror that.

It was going to be a different thing,

wherever it was.

[Bernie]

The Hip are a global band.

Any band who can play

anywhere in the f*ck' world

to thousands of people every night

on the big bills.

The Hip did it consistently for 25 years.

-Thank you. Merci.

-[audience cheering]

Take care of each other.

Now get some sleep.

[chanting]

Hip! Hip! Hip! Hip!

["Leave" on TV]

[Dave] One night,

after Gord's daughter was born,

we were watching a show.

Gord was sitting right beside me.

And he was particularly manic,

running across the stage and

jumping over monitors and climbing things.

And we were all laughing.

[laughing]

And I look at Gord

and he's just serious

["Put It Off" playing]

staring at the TV.

I wrote unfriendly things ♪

And he's just like, "I'm a clown."

Truly cruel ♪

On the day that you were born ♪

[Dave]

"And I don't want to be a clown.

I don't want my children to grow up

thinking Daddy was a clown.

You know what? Tomorrow plug in

Paul's acoustic for me at sound check."

I put it off, I put it off ♪

[Dave]

For him, it was a a grounding spot.

It was, "I can stand here and strum along

during Robbie's guitar solo

instead of having to having to spin around

in circles on my mic stand."

[Paul] I totally understand

why he wanted to play guitar

and why he wanted

to just sort of calm down.

"Let me just be a musician

with you guys, please."

So, strapping on the guitar, I think,

was part of his way to deal with that.

I put it on, I put it on

I put it on again ♪

I'm playing a lot more guitar lately,

and I find I'm communing with the music

on a different level.

There was never an audition. [laughs]

So, everyone had feelings about it,

you know. Everyone did.

I hated it. [laughing] Are you kidding me?

He was one of the best frontmen

anywhere ever.

And strap an acoustic guitar on

and it pins you down.

[Paul] There was a worry,

probably in my head,

"Oh, is he gonna be

just playing guitar now?

Because what you were doin' back there

is pretty good,

you know, when you dance around

and stuff."

[Sinclair] He would kind of stand

in one spot and kind of strum.

Which, for the audience,

wasn't what they were used to seeing.

You could see fans go, "Pfft, he's

playing the guitar on this one." You know.

I don't think anyone really embraced it.

But he was ready for a change.

The other thing is, he could see that,

the more he moved around,

the more people

started pushing the barricade,

and we started to have security issues.

And then, he just thought,

"I'm gonna play guitar.

I'm just not gonna move around as much."

[Paul]

The testosterone levels up there are high.

We had a period of time

where it was very male aggressive.

Really on the edge of violence.

At our shows, it was mostly dudes

doing this stuff.

Being carried on each other

and on the stage and jumping up

and leaping. And that's

what rock and roll was there for awhile.

[Ricky] And I feel sorry

for the young ladies that were

You know, they waited in line,

some of them, all day or whatever.

They got up front

and by the time the lights go down,

we're basically plucking them

out of the front

because they were just getting crushed.

[Rob]

And it could get rough out there.

And then, you start seeing people

get taken out on stretchers after gigs.

And it's like, "Yeah, this isn't cool.

We need to change tack here."

You can make adjustments to the set.

Gord would say things from the stage.

You all be good to each other down here.

Hip shows are for men and women.

None of you boys

keep muscling out the girls.

I definitely was trying to figure out,

"How do you control this?"

And so, I'm protecting all these people

up front, that was my gig.

And, um, I wanted more women there.

I thought, "We're not doing it this way.

We're not going to do this this way."

[producer speaking indistinctly]

["Bobcaygeon" playing]

I left your house this mornin' ♪

It was a quarter after nine ♪

Could have been the Willie Nelson ♪

Could have been the wine ♪

As the band aged,

the music got a little mellower.

They wrote songs like "Bobcaygeon."

And there was more women

coming to the shows.

It was in Bobcaygeon

I saw the constellations ♪

Reveal themselves one star at a time ♪

I mean, that line;

that "I saw the constellations

reveal themselves one star at a time."

I can't look at a night sky

without "Bobcaygeon" coming into my mind.

The power of that imagery

and the power of connection there,

it's because we all lived that.

All of us have had that morning.

[Sinclair] Beautiful song. But what

Steve Berlin brought to that, sonically,

just small little bits of keyboard

that he put in there,

really elevated that song.

[Berlin] I tried to approach it

as if it was a new band.

Like I'm not worried about their legacy,

I'm not worried about anything

but making a great record.

On "Bobcaygeon," they'd come up

with a chord sequence.

It sounded like an older Hip song,

like something I would've associated

with like "Road Apples."

So, my suggestion was,

"What if we tried it like

a little bit like an R&B song."

[bass playing]

That was kinda when

the door opened on that one.

[Johnny] In a lot of ways, Steve Berlin

was the best producer we ever had.

He's a musician and would talk to,

you know,

Robbie and Paul and Gord

about the shape of a song.

He understood us,

he understands band dynamics.

And so, he was the right guy for us.

[playing guitar riff]

There were three, four

really important songs

in the larger Hip oeuvre, you know,

came out of that record.

["Poets" playing]

[Steve Berlin] "Poets" is one

that was like two different ideas.

There was the verse was one thing

and the chorus was a different thing.

I said, "What if we use that as a verse

and that bit as a chorus?"

They're like, "Really?

Yeah, let's give it a shot."

Don't tell me what the poets are doing ♪

Don't tell me that

They're talking tough ♪

Don't tell me that they're anti-social ♪

Somehow not anti-social enough

That's right ♪

"Don't tell me that poets are antisocial.

Somehow not antisocial enough."

"Don't tell me

how the universe is altered

when you find out how he gets paid.

All right." Yeah, sick.

Don't tell me what the poets are doing ♪

Those Himalayas of the mind ♪

Don't tell me

What the poet's been doing ♪

In the long grasses over time ♪

[Paul] The video, it's at kind of

a semi-famous house in Kingston.

'Cause it's just a bunch of cats.

Like, too many cats.

[reporter] It all started out

as a simple enough idea,

just one single little kitty.

And then, it sort of took off from there.

Now, 20 years later,

the family of Donna and Jack Wright

has mushroomed

into 145 cats under one roof.

I think we resurrected The Rodents idea

for that, you know,

because the cats and the rodents.

And then, you get to the place.

Oh, it was horrible.

It smelled like cat piss, dander,

humidity, you know, all the things

you want to be doing on a hot summer day.

It was our first experience

working with you cinematically.

[Mike] Gord said, "I think we should do it

in the house of cats."

-[whimpers]

-[Mike] And I said, "Gord, I'm allergic."

Oh, no!

[Mike] And he whispered in my ear,

"So am I."

[laughs]

[Sinclair]

It was a really important record for us

at a really important time in our career.

[Will] I think the reason they had

so many hit records in a row

was because they were just

constantly doing stuff

that got them off artistically,

at that moment.

I can't name, internationally, a band

who consecutively did that six times,

including Led Zeppelin, including The Who.

[Johnny] I would say it kinda

went to "Phantom Power"

and then, things changed for the group.

[children chattering]

-[host] How are you?

-Doing okay.

[host]

So, did you make this?

-Uh, this is my nephew, Angus.

-[host] Aww.

Why is it there's so many kids

this leg of the tour?

Oh, well, we're pretty close to home here,

so this is a good chance for them.

I mean, I think the whole idea

behind this is kiddy kinda stuff anyway.

You know, so.

[host] Who's kids are they?

They are really rambunctious.

I don't know, they just showed up.

We gotta take care of 'em now too.

By that point we were all at

a stage of our lives where [inhales]

home was, and our responsibilities

at home, were way more important.

[Paul] We were all really trying

to stay on the same page,

when to tour, when not to tour

and when we're recording.

Getting enough time at home

with the kids.

[Sinclair] We missed a lot of stuff

at home on the road.

My ex-wife went into labour

with my second son

when we were in Australia,

like, moments after we landed.

I missed Emma's birth, um,

because we were on the road.

We were all going through

the same things.

I could probably count on one hand

the number of times I was home

for my anniversary, or my son's birthday.

It's f*ck' hard.

You give up a lot, but everyone else

was giving up the same things.

When he was home,

he was very, very involved.

Coached hockey teams,

soccer teams, all sorts of stuff.

But, yeah, he definitely

was gone quite a bit

and I'm extremely close with my mom

for that.

Trying to do one true beautiful thing ♪

And your beautiful thing

It'd be a beautiful thing ♪

To see that beautiful thing ♪

Continuing ♪

[Willo]

It was really tough on him. Um

He always told us, at least,

that being a dad

was his favourite job of all of them.

And he missed a lot.

He missed a lot. But he really did try

to plan out his life.

He would never miss Halloween.

He'd never miss certain holidays,

or, you know, things that were important

to our family.

[Sinclair]

I think the songs that we wrote together,

and particularly Gord's lyrics and stuff

did matter. They matter a lot to people.

It came at its cost, though.

Your beautiful thing

It'd be a beautiful thing ♪

To see that beautiful thing ♪

[Jake]

They started putting restrictions

on how long I could put them

on the road for.

We would go out for a month

or six weeks,

but then it became like, "Oh, we can't go

for more than three weeks at a time,

then we have to come home."

They wanted a much more stable home life.

They didn't want their kids

to grow up without them.

[Rob] Five late-20-something-year-olds

living in a van together on the road

gives way to five 30-somethings

living in different places

with different needs and aspirations

and demands on them.

And Gord was physically separated,

living in Toronto.

[Gord] I've just been living

in Toronto for a while.

So, I'm really kind of enjoying

being here and checking this out

and sort of getting to know the city

a little better.

Gord was living in Toronto.

Uh, you know, we were all

still down here in Kingston.

It just changed the logistics right away.

We couldn't just phone each other up

and go out for a beer. Right?

Let alone sit around and write songs.

[George] You know that it's

a destabilizing factor

when you're no longer next door. So now,

they're not seeing the same things.

They're getting space. That codependency

that becomes a big part of a band's story

is no longer there.

And it can destabilize a band

and I'm certain it destabilized here.

[Jake] Because they had the studio there,

Gord always had to go to Kingston.

So, Gord was the one forced

to kind of be away from his family,

while the rest of them

were with their families.

And it definitely was contributing

to the already unrest that was developing

amongst the guys in the band.

[Sinclair] Going into "Music at Work,"

we weren't ready to make that record.

It was getting harder and harder

to get the five of us together

to get the songs finished

before we went into the studio.

[Jake] Steve Berlin,

who had made "Phantom Power,"

they brought him back

to make "Music at Work."

[Steve] I came back feeling and thinking

that we were just gonna

pick up where we left off.

But the guys were just in

a slightly different headspace, you know?

Certainly the pressures outside of them

had grown.

It seemed like by "Music at Work,"

they were thinking more.

I couldn't make them stop thinking.

And they were a little less willing

to experiment.

[Rob] Steve Berlin said

working with us was like

trying to get something

past the Security Council.

He's not wrong.

Five guys each with a veto.

And I think that there were

a lot of senses

that the record could go

in very different directions.

[producer]

Three, two

One of the Canadian pillars

of rock 'n' roll,

Gordon Downie of the Tragically Hip,

joined forces

with one of the Canadian

pillars of comedy,

Bruce McCulloch, in the brand-new

Tragically Hip video.

We are on location for a two-day sh**t.

Right now, let's go inside, check out

the, uh, what's happe oh, f*ck.

["Music at Work" playing]

Everything is bleak

It's the middle of the night ♪

You're all alone and

The dummies might be right ♪

You feel like a jerk

My music at work, my music at work ♪

[Sinclair] We were trying

to finish off these songs

and not knowing how to do it, you know.

Putting lots of keyboard things on it.

Steve was contributing an awful lot

to turn a six into a nine.

And then, when it came time to tour it,

we didn't have the instrumentation

to effectively present the material.

So, we had Chris and Kate

come on the road.

[Sook-Yin] Okay,

we have a question from James.

I love the new album.

I was just wondering if there's

any particular reason you guys

had some additional vocalists,

background vocalists,

for a few of the tracks?

Chris played piano, as you know,

on the record,

and they've agreed to join us

on the road with their band.

[Chris] When Kate Fenner and I

started touring with The Hip,

I think we arrived at a time when

I couldn't compare it to other times

in the band life,

but it, they definitely

were not communicating.

When we were playing Theatre

of the Living Arts in Philadelphia,

I called a band meeting which

either Robbie or Gord Sinclair said to me,

"This is the first band meeting

we've had in five years."

I was like, "Really? I couldn't notice."

[Sinclair] By the end of the tour,

they were on stage from the get-go.

It forced a reinterpretation of songs.

You know, all of a sudden you're playing

"New Orleans is Sinking"

with a keyboard solo in it.

Or Kate has to have more to do

than play the tambourine.

So, all of a sudden,

she's singing in every song.

No offense to Chris, no offense to Kate.

Love 'em both.

But I just didn't think

it was a good idea.

I played ball because everyone else

thought it was a good idea.

But I was so kinda protective of my role,

protective of the five of us

playing together.

It feels like a whole new band.

I think that's probably why you do it.

Gord's imaginings were

that every band member is equal,

including Chris and Kate,

and nobody else felt that way.

He really wanted them fully integrated,

and part of that was,

I'm sure, his sense of alienation

from the rest of the guys.

[Johnny] It felt like a bit

a real breach of the friendship.

You know, it was just like,

"This is not cool."

[Paul] It wasn't our best period of time.

It wasn't.

We were having trouble getting along,

being on the same page.

Trouble kinda getting together.

[Gord]

We're trying to achieve familyhood.

I guess one would assume

we'd already figured that one out.

But, no, you know.

We have a lot to learn about each other

and about being in a band.

We have another question

from the audience. Hey.

I was just wondering, since Gord Downie's

coming out with a new solo album,

if that, you guys, is there any conflict

between that?

[Gord chuckles]

I'm not sure I heard that question. Um

-But, um

-What was that? No?

[girl]

The band's not gonna split up?

-No.

-No? Good!

-[Gord] No, it's, uh

-[cheering]

[Sinclair] You never want to hear

a guy in your band's making a solo record.

It kind of suggests, just by definition,

that he's unhappy in the situation

that he's in.

"Oh.

You're gonna make a solo record,

yet, you know,

we're your band, and you're in The Hip,"

and that kind of thing.

I felt threatened. I was irritated, angry.

Probably felt a little betrayed.

[Jake] Gord never kind of explained

why he wanted to make a solo record.

He just said, "Hey, guys,

I'm gonna make a solo record."

"Oh, you are?" And then,

no one confronted him on it.

Like, there was never any discussion

about it.

There's always that thought where,

"Oh, my God, if this takes off,

you know, I'm out of a job."

[Dave] I think there was

always a fear that, what if?

What if this blows up? What if

he writes something that's so good

that, like, people just want to come

to Gord Downie concerts now,

and the Hip are no longer a band?

My first foray into the Gord Downie

as a solo artist

was a show in Toronto.

In the softer hours, he's there ♪

Sitting, talking in the voice

Of your mother ♪

About leaving one good party ♪

I think, for Hip fans, they would've

scratched their head and said,

"What the f*ck is this?"

And I think for people that weren't fans

or weren't aware of The Hip,

or didn't like them, would've gone,

"Wow, I didn't expect this

from Gord Downie."

I mean, I'm really just trying to learn

a thing or two.

Um, I'm trying to get access

to more words

and more ways of expressing myself.

And the ability to go deeper

with a pen and paper is very seductive.

[Paul] "Coke Machine Glow" comes out

and doesn't sound like The Hip.

Same singer, but different style.

So, I think we all thought,

"Good on ya," in the end.

I think, more like, "Well,

that's not his meal ticket. [laughs]

He's stuck with us

if he wants to pay the bills."

I just make this sh*t up, I'm sorry.

[Bruce] Having been in a group,

I know it can get onerous

always seeking permission

to do everything you want to do.

You wanna just go and kind of

blather out something else

without it having to go through

this sort of formal machine

that a group becomes.

You become pretty lustful for new things,

you know.

I mean, you know, I don't know how

to paint, but I want to paint.

And I don't know how to take pictures,

but I want to take pictures.

And I don't know how to make movies,

but I want to make movies.

[Bruce] I think Gord was doing that

also for the band,

so he could go do things

and get some impulses out,

and not have to drive them crazy

with everything he wanted to do.

And yeah, "I'm gonna go blow off some

steam here and then come back to you."

[Paul] I do think

by him doing that first solo record,

it kind of opened the gates up

a little bit

for allowing any of us to do that,

allowing any of us

to sort of be creative outside The Hip.

In the end, I did a couple solo ones.

You know, Robbie did a couple.

It's satisfying to be in that situation.

I can speak from personal experience.

To write and record a record where

the buck stops with you every time,

there's satisfaction in it.

Recording, writing songs together,

five people

complicated, very complicated.

The older you get,

the shorter your kinda patience becomes.

Musically, everybody was always on

the same page when they would get there.

[laughs] They would

just get on each other's nerves.

Everybody wanted it to be a specific way.

[Geddy]

The middle years are the toughest

because each musician has their own ideas

and has maybe a bit too much confidence

in their own ideas.

And so, personalities can butt heads

and that's when it's not the best idea

that wins,

it's who expresses their idea

the loudest and most insistent way.

[Rob]

We're all stubborn in our own right,

but Gord definitely had a feeling

that the person who argues the loudest

and the longest and the most passionately

should win the argument.

We kind of fell into the same trap

that we set for ourselves

with "In Violet Light"

and "In Between Evolution"

that we did with "Music at Work."

The songs weren't written going in.

[Rob] You have a year and a half

or two years to write your first album,

and all the songs are road tested.

By the time you get to your sixth album,

or seventh album,

you're writing in the studio.

So, it was suggested

from within the band

that, um we need

to go away and do a record,

like, isolate ourselves like we used to.

So, we ended up in the Bahamas.

We're makin' a record with a British guy

by the name of Hugh Padgham.

I was over the moon about this guy

because he produced The Police,

"Ghost in the Machine,"

[Dave] I can still picture Gord

sitting on the outside porch

at Compass Point Studio

with the ocean crashing in,

with this huge thing of paper that

could've been three albums worth of stuff,

and he was like, "No, this is

just the one song," you know.

[Johnny] I was doing a little walk

and I was on a beach.

And I saw Hugh and he said,

"Can I chat with you for a second?"

He said, "Now, your singer said

he was gonna change some of the lyrics."

And I said, "Well, that's the way

he works." And he goes,

"But if Sting says to me,

'I'm gonna change some lyrics,'

he changes an "and" and a "the."

And that's it, that's Sting.

But your singer, he's changed everything."

And he just didn't get that about Gord.

He's not just a singer, he's a poet.

And so, people

are gonna hang on every word now.

He really did labour over them.

And you could hear him just [sighs]

I thought he was being way too hard

on himself, you know, torturing himself.

Trying to make it perfect and often times

kind of losing the thread of

You know, you start replacing words here

and words there,

and before you know it,

you've rewritten the entire thing.

When you're in that kinda cocoon,

making a record,

you're nothing else matters.

You don't know if it's any damn good

until the smoke clears

and you see, "What have I done?" Which is

why cracks start to appear within bands.

[Rob] Our records went from being

a couple of pretty great albums,

some good, focused albums,

and then, some less focused albums.

[clears throat]

[Dave] Personally, I would say

to anybody, listen a little harder,

because "In Violet Light,"

which nobody talks about that record,

it's an incredible record.

["It's a Good Life If You Don't Weaken"

playing]

When the colour of the night ♪

And all the smoke in one life ♪

Gives way to shaky movements ♪

Improvisational skill ♪

And a forest of whispering speakers ♪

Let's swear that we will ♪

Get with the times ♪

In a current health to stay ♪

Let's get friendship right ♪

And get life day to day ♪

In the forget yer skates dream ♪

Full of countervailing woes ♪

In diverse as ever scenes ♪

Proceeding on a need to know ♪

In a face so full of meaning ♪

As to almost make it glow ♪

All for a good life

We just might have to weaken ♪

And find somewhere to go ♪

Go somewhere we're needed ♪

Find somewhere to grow ♪

Go somewhere we're needed ♪

I think the early records,

and the early take of the band,

is they were like

an amazing kind of blues band.

It just felt like sweat on vinyl.

And I think, as the band went on,

the music became more complicated.

I think some of the things

that Gord was talking about

were more personal to him.

And I think some of the riff rockers

are going,

"Well, when are we going to hear

"New Orleans is Sinking" again?"

Audiences weren't as engaged.

Um, we weren't selling as many tickets.

The shows weren't as good.

We were playing full arenas.

All of a sudden, it was like,

"Do we now put curtains up

and do arena shows

that are like two-thirds full?"

[Paul]

We just noticed that the top bowl

wasn't full.

[Jake] Gord Downie hated being

up on stage in these cavernous places.

And I thought we needed something

to reinvigorate the audience.

"Let's move to theatres and we'll

do multi nights and work our way back up."

[Rob] I think there was some concern

on the band's part,

that if we bumped down to the theatres,

bumping back up could be hard.

[sound engineer]

One, two two two

[Sinclair] You start to question

each other and what you're doing.

You start to question management.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Paul] We knew that we

needed a change and, yeah,

we weren't gonna sorta change

anyone in the band.

It was heavy bananas, you know,

at the time, for sure.

And obviously, it was heavy for Jake.

[pensive music]

[Jake] Gord Downie sits down beside me,

and he starts reading this letter.

-Did you find it? Well, look at you.

-[Mike] Got it.

You have it.

[Mike]

What do we have here, Jake?

"We are slow, top-heavy, dysfunctional,

a burden to ourselves.

We're distrustful of each other and

that distrust is coming perilously close

to damaging the one pure thing

we made together,

a strong-beating,

communally creative heart."

[Sinclair] Gord would've been up,

probably for days,

writing this the way

he would write a song

Is it a mean streak

You'd swear, you'd swear ♪

changing it and massaging it

and trying to make it perfect.

You know, the breakup letter.

"The band feels it's time to part ways

with the management trust.

We've enjoyed many great times"

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

Is it a mean streak

A desolation sound ♪

A copy of desire

Oh, nothing's that far down ♪

If you ask Jake, you say, "Who are you?"

he wouldn't say, "Jake Gold."

He wouldn't say, "I'm a man."

He'd say, "I'm the manager

of The Tragically Hip."

So, when that occurred,

they took away his identity.

[Jake]

But I think they felt that, maybe,

I was taking them down a road

they didn't want to go.

In addition to the fact

that they couldn't agree on anything.

And it was dysfunctional

and there was a lot of distrust.

They needed a fall guy

for their dysfunction.

We should've done something differently

than what we were doing, you know.

But Jake took the fall.

[Johnny] Like any family,

there's certain things

you just don't want to address

and you sweep it under the carpet

and you're like,

"We'll deal with it later."

But, um, we probably

should've had some therapy,

because I think, at that point,

we probably needed it.

[Sinclair] We were at another juncture

where we kinda needed

to reinvent ourselves, somehow.

Needed to inject something different

into what we were doing.

[Patrick] Bernie and I

had started managing the band.

The band had already stepped away

from arenas,

and were, you know,

already doing less business.

So, certainly part of our job was

to re-engage

and to bring the band back to arenas.

[Shannon]

Well, you have a new album out.

It came out in the U.S. last month,

called "World Container."

Did you, um, did you deliberately try

to do anything different on this CD?

Well, we had Bob Rock come in,

who's a Canadian living in Maui.

And he was a it was like opening

all the windows and doors

in a very stuffy house. Um

-Sorry. Uh, a sort of stuffy house.

-[laughs]

[Bob] Let's go from the top again,

it's getting better and better.

It's sounding really good, guys.

As a producer, Bob Rock's name had

come up a number of times over the years.

We all loved the Motley Crue album,

"Dr. Feelgood."

The Metallica "Black Album."

Great sounding record.

[Bob] Do these guys know

about the D you're playing?

Yep.

Okay. And then you come in.

When I met them,

we just concentrated on songs,

and kind of focusing what's best

about The Hip. And I found it.

I think "World Container" was interesting

because they really liked the sonics

and they saw where it could go.

[Rob] You know, every producer

comes to it with a bag of tricks,

and, uh, Bob had his eight or ten things

that blew everyone's mind a little bit.

[Bob]

You see, uh, in the riff, it goes

[imitates drums]

[band playing]

[Johnny] It was exciting to be

in the band again, at that point.

You know, to be working with Bob.

That's when it felt like it was new again.

[Sinclair] He was hands-on

with the songwriting.

He was workin' each guy individually

to draw parts out,

draw the performance out and stuff.

[laughs]

I think things are on the mend.

And Bob's pushing it.

There was a feeling that

"World Container" was gonna be kinda

some kind of return to form.

[Johnny]

We needed a lifeline. We did.

And Bob Rock put us back on the radio

when we needed to get back on the radio

to get people to come out

and see us again.

[playing "In View"]

[audience clapping to beat]

[Patrick]

The impact of "In View" was considerable,

because it was from a record then

that was different.

Yes, that turned off

some Tragically Hip fans, of course.

But it also turned on

some Tragically Hip fans,

and it was a real step back

into the spotlight.

I love you

You know I do ♪

Yeah, it's perfect ♪

Well, it isn't and it is ♪

I've been meaning to call you ♪

I've been meaning to call you

Then I do ♪

Phone rings once ♪

Phone rings twice ♪

Phone rings three times ♪

I, I am of you ♪

[phone rings]

["Morning Moon"]

The reactor's down ♪

I guess for Labour Day, today ♪

It's the first day I ain't seen ♪

A great plume of steam

From across the lake ♪

From across the lake ♪

Hey, that's a morning moon ♪

Gord said, "Bob will produce

the next record, or I'm out."

So, Bob produced the next record.

[Bob] You know,

Gord, between "World Container,"

the more we worked together,

the freer he thought.

this morning moon ♪

Whatever constraints he had,

he felt he had,

maybe they weren't there,

but he felt safe.

[singing]

-Let's solve this first lyric.

-Right?

So, would there be three verses?

The reason I ask

is because I could put like, um

[Johnny] Gord,

he's lost some confidence in his writing.

Bob instills, in Gord, the confidence.

Again, he needs a voice to tell him,

"Go down that path."

So, I just think that there

was a lot of trust there,

that he didn't have for a long time

with other people.

What was that other phrase

that you repeated before?

Yesterday, you were repeating

not "this is a curse,"

it was another line that you were

And this is as bad as, or worse.

That's what I do.

Oh, "That's what I do."

[Sinclair] Over their conversations

of making "We Are the Same," you know,

they had great ambitions of making

the great Canadian record.

This is Gord and Bob talking.

Without necessarily

bringing the rest of the guys

in on the ambition for the project,

or really what the project

is actually gonna be.

Bob went out of his way

to nurture that performance from Gord

and to cozy up to Gord.

Maybe, a little bit at the expense

of the way I would look at the band.

There was more tension because we knew

that he was spending a lot of time

with Gord, and they were talking deeply.

Of course, every producer's talking

about the lyrics,

but it just seemed like more than that.

Gord and I just became friends.

Uh, and maybe that changed the dynamic.

Bands are weird.

You're married to another four other guys,

or whatever, it's weird.

[Sinclair]

It was really the first time that Gord

was not bringing lyrical ideas

to me personally.

He was clearly having them with Bob,

and I felt super dislocated from it.

And it got a little ugly there

where, like,

Bob kinda treated the band guys

like they were the musicians,

and that Gord was the artist.

And I said to Bob,

"Gord is not The Tragically Hip.

Gord is the singer of The Tragically Hip.

The Tragically Hip are five guys

that melt together and

make this incredible music together."

It sounds like everyone's

gonna head back out

and reconvene out at Bob's place

in Maui, which will be cool.

[g*nsh*t]

But that didn't happen.

Gord ultimately went over to Bob's place

out in Hawaii

for months to work on the vocals.

[Bob]

When I do vocals, I work quick.

So, we did a lot of backgrounds

while the band wasn't there,

which is a huge mistake,

um, not having the band there.

[indistinct chatter]

[Paul]

Bob's at the board and we walk in.

He's about to play a song,

and he was like,

"By the way, uh,

Eric and I did all the backups."

And I was like, "All of them?

Like, what do you mean, all of them?"

We weren't used to that kind of thing.

Like, "What?

You sang all the backups?"

And it's just like, "That is not The Hip.

Sorry."

I always erred on the side of

just the five of us, that's it, you know.

I was feeling protective of Gord,

and of our relationship.

It's the biggest thing.

And it didn't feel like

Bob was doing any help there.

I can't hear you ♪

I can't stay here ♪

When you get invited to

come up and sing background vocals

on your band's record,

and then you kinda realize

there's only one song that they've left

for you to sing background vocals on,

it's just like, "Okay

f*ck you, too."

And so, yeah, Paul and I walked out

on that, that session.

[Paul]

So, we were up there for three hours.

We were supposed to, we were assuming

we were gonna be a few days,

singing backups and stuff,

but just didn't happen.

That was a, that was

a very dark period for me.

Because backups are personal.

It's personal.

I can't hear you ♪

I can't stay here ♪

[Paul] It was probably Gord and I's

biggest fight.

Almost in our career, as friends.

Certainly, our biggest fight in the band.

It was the first time I'd ever been fired

from a job in my entire life,

in my own f*ck' band.

[Rob] "We Are the Same,"

or "We Are Not the Same,"

as we often refer to it.

Uh, it has some good songs on it.

But I think it really set the band back

a lot.

Hard to recover from working with him.

[commentator on TV chatter]

[Johnny]

It's not the way that The Hip works.

This is total bullshit.

[Johnny] We either work as a unit

or we don't work at all.

[George]

There are a couple of things

that you can't tell the truth about

in this country,

and one of the things you can't tell

the truth about in the country

is that the guys in The Tragically Hip

probably didn't get along

as often as everybody said they did.

Lots of bands have drama, for sure.

But with The Hip, you never saw it.

But you knew it.

Has it been a challenge

to keep the band friends?

Uh, well, I think anybody

in a long-term relationship

will tell you it has its challenges,

obviously.

Yeah, I mean, we're five guys trying

to make things every couple of years

and, uh

and sometimes, you gotta break some eggs

to make the cake.

So, yes and no, I guess, obviously.

We knew that, internally,

there were problems.

No one covered it. We couldn't bear it.

The Tragically Hip are one of those bands

where we just needed the f*ck' lie

to be real.

There was anger and frustration

and resentment.

And how do you deal with that stuff?

Everyone has their own way.

I would drink.

It got to the point with Gord

where Gord would walk into the room,

and I would instantly stand up

and pour a drink.

I just had a lot of trouble

coping with it.

There was a period there of a few years

things were pretty tough.

But when we were making

the, uh, last record,

and Gord came to me and

we sat in my room at the Bathouse,

had a little heart-to-heart.

We actually had a conversation

where we sat and talked to each other

face-to-face

as real friends could and should do,

and we got to a very good place.

Lots of tears, lots of hugs.

Lots of I love yous.

And we came out of that in a good spot.

And about six weeks later,

Gord got his diagnosis.

[playing "Pretend"]

You can't pretend ♪

And I can't pretend ♪

Pretending might end ♪

Pretend, I can pretend ♪

To end, that's right ♪

You can't pretend ♪

Yes, I can, yes, I can

Yes, I can ♪

You can't pretend ♪

Yes, I can, yes, I can

Yes, I can ♪

[man] What song is that?

-[Gord] Hm?

-[man] What song is that?

[Gord] Ah, it's just one I'm working on.

[clears throat]

[man] You got a name for it?

-[Gord] "You Can't Pretend"

-[man laughs]

[Gord] Yes, I can, yes, I can

Yes, I can ♪

I just love doing that.

You can't pretend ♪

Yes, I can, yes, I can

Yes, I can ♪

-[man] I like it.

-[Gord] Yeah.

[man] It's a nice song.

[Gord]

Send it through to Bob.

He'd asked for it

when I was playing it, so.

The other guys haven't heard it yet.