02x07 - Episode 7

[bunniefuu]

[Gianni] There's been
some tension this morning.

Yeah, he hasn't
spoken to me all day, so...

-[laughs]
-[Orna] Okay.

[Gianni] He always brings this
thing up that I don't walk the

dogs.

But now he says the dogs
are the only thing that keeps

him sane, so he should be
happy to take care of them.

You know it's not my
favorite thing to do,

so just do it.

And Matthew, what
are you thinking?

Um, well, when I'm hearing it
out loud, it sounds crazy to me.

-I mean, It sounds--
-[Orna] Who's crazy?

Just that it is
so impactful to him,

this dog situation.

Because you made
it-- you made it--

you make it a big
deal all the time.

-No, I--
-You keep bringing it up.

-I truly am not.
-You bring it up everyday.

"Are you not going to
walk the dogs tonight?

Are you not going to walk
the dogs tomorrow morning?

Are you not going to
walk the dogs again today?"

All the time, everyday.

It's been, what, two weeks?

And you keep bringing it up.

It's shocking to me
that that's how you feel.

And I do it, I
do it when I can--

It's shocking to
you that Gianni--

[Matthew] That
he feels like I--

Feels like it's
a big deal to you.

Yeah.

So what are you each saying to
each other by saying "You walk

the dog," or "I don't
want to walk the dog,"

or "You should walk--"
what are you actually saying?

I just feel that I keep
adjusting myself to this

relationship.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

Say more.

I don't see a change.

I mean, I've seen
a change in him,

yes, but in our relationship,
I haven't seen a big change.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

[Matthew] I guess my question
would be is what change is it

that you're looking for?

Just like the little things.

Little things like...?

Like things in the house.

Like, if I don't remind him,
they're not getting done.

Even like something spontaneous,
like, you know, the romance or

romantic stuff.

I haven't seen something
romantic happen in a very long

-time.
-[Orna] Mm-hm, like?

-Not even a flower or...
-Mm-hm.

Something, you know, to make
me feel loved a little bit.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

theme music

[water running]

What's wrong?

You. [chuckles]

[laughing] Me?

Just kidding.

Gianni was talking about how
we had a really good week.

[Gianni] We did.

Tell me.

[Gianni] Um...

I don't know, it was great.

Lots of surprises.

I mean, small surprises.

Like?

Like, you know, he watered the
plants without letting me know

and all these little
things that made me happy.

-[chuckling]
-Wow.

-[inaudible].
-[inaudible].

Wait, slow down,
I need to hear.

I'm sorry I'm
like, "Ah!" [laughs]

[Orna] Say it again, he wanted--

He just did the little small
things that make me smile.

[Orna] Tell me.

We live in the small things.

-Tell me.
-[Gianni] I know.

He really is living in it.

I actually
forgot it was Monday,

and I usually,
Monday, water the plants

and he did that.

He was like, "Of course I
did it because it's Monday."

And I was like, "Oh
my God, that's sweet."

And then we went to the
park and he was like,

"You know, I want to be more
spontaneous so let's do what

you want to do,"
so he followed me.

I made suggestions
and we did it.

And it's been very nice.

[laughs]

Well, you made that clear, that
I need to step up and make it

worth your while.

What's happening?

-[laughs]
-[laughs]

I don't understand
how you guys do this,

but you manage to turn something
really sweet into something

slightly...

with, like, hidden thorns.

Like, what's happening?

-[chuckles]
-Yeah.

I mean, because it's a little
comical to listen to him say,

you know, "It's just
these little things."

Yeah, we live in
those little things.

[Matthew] But
these little things--

Yeah.

Are so little.

[Orna] They're not
really so little.

The little gestures
are-- they have deep roots.

And the only way that
those deep roots show,

they don't show in
the form of, you know,

love letters.

They show in the little things.

Yeah.

You know, you just gotta-- you
know, I roll with your punches a

little bit more.

Meaning you're less reactive?

[Matthew] Right.

Like, he absolutely refused to
have the A/C on because it hit


during the day and he hates the

A/C.

So I'm just like,
"You know what?

I'll be hot tonight."

[Orna] Mm-hm.

And I was.

-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-[laughs]

So our relationship
can be better.

[all chuckling]

Uh-huh.

[Matthew] So it's fine.

For now.

Why-- why are you saying--
why are you being like that?

I'm saying that some
of it's-- oh, what?

-Like...
-What's happening?

I'm not being the perfect guy
that you were so excited about

-moments ago?
-No, no, no.

-Okay, you're doing it again.
-What am I doing?

-But he says that.
-But you're making--

[Matthew] He
literally said that.

But you know what you're
doing, from my perspective?

What am I doing, Orna?

You're turning something very
sweet that is being delivered to

you into something thorny.

I mean what I'm saying
is I just, you know--

[Orna] You want Gianni to
know that it's not nothing that

you're doing something.

Yeah, I'm bending for you.

And I see that.

Right, but the
concerns came from--

-Okay, let me ask you--
-[Matthew] Yeah.

So you can say
"I'm bending for you."

Or?

[Orna] Or you can say, "I'm
really making an effort to meet

you."

Okay.

[Orna] And that's a
totally different message.

Can we move on to something
right now that we need to

-discuss?
-[Orna] Yeah.

Our, um-- our sex life.

[Orna] Yeah, you
mentioned something about that.

-Yeah.
-[Orna] Can we?

I have been drinking
since I was 14 years old.

[Orna] Right.

Um, 98 percent of those times
I'm probably guessing were,

you know, sex that was
while I was intoxicated.

[Orna] Right.

So for the last year, I've been
having to navigate something...

-[Orna] New.
-Very new.

Do you feel like where
you're struggling is in getting

into the sex act or...?

I'm frustrated with myself
because I don't have the drive

that I used to.

And it was very
much something that,

when we started
our relationship,

was there.

So for it to not
be there as much,

you know, is frustrating
for everyone involved.

[Orna] Yeah.

He brings it to my attention
that it's always him that's...

-[Orna] Initiating.
-Initiating.

How does it feel from your end?

Sometimes, I start
questioning myself.

I'm like, "Am I not
attractive enough or...?"

You know, all these questions.

"Is it me?"

"Does he want to be
with somebody else?"

That's where it
goes in your mind.

[Gianni] Yeah, you know.

[Orna] But just to kind of
put out a couple of thoughts,

one thing is your work
on -- let's say, to put it

simplistically -- why do
you need to drink to have sex?

Like, figuring out what are you
exposing yourself to when you're

having sex sober.

But then I'm also thinking about
the dimension that has to do

with your dynamic.

And probably, I mean again,
it's something for you to

do and I know you're
like, "Oh my God, me again."

[all laugh]

[Orna] But...

Why is it always me?

Is it always me?

No, it's not always you.

-But hold on.
-[sighs]

[Orna] Before
we barter, um...

putting in a little
more initiative.

Initiating a little
bit can go a long way.

Mm-hm.

mellow music

When we came here,
I felt like he just didn't do

anything.

Like, you know, I complained
about every aspect of our

-marriage.
-[Orna] I know.

I said, "He doesn't do."

And now, it's like in so
many different aspects of our

-life, that has changed.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.

You know, it's changed with our
intimacy in our relationship--

-Wonderful.
-[Michal] It's changed with what
he actually physically does

up around the house.

It's changed with chores,
it's changed with the kids.

It's all changed.

But you know what?

There's always this underlying
fear in me that I have to keep

this going because if I
don't and I let my guard down,

he's just gonna
slip back and slide--

Why are you even appointing
yourself as taskmaster?

[Orna] Mm-hm.

The thing is maybe that's
what's driving me crazy is

I don't want to be
this person anymore.

-[Michael] So don't.
-I don't want to feel like
I have to stand over you

with a whip to be an adult.

You definitely don't have to.

[Michal] So then
what's gonna happen?

Can I ask you, then, to
follow this idea of getting

curious about yourself?

Okay.

So let's say your
anxiety about nothing ever

happening is not only
about the two of you.

Like, who taught you
to be anxious like this?

Probably my mother.

My father and my mother, they
tried to go to Israel and it

didn't work out for them and
they lost a lot of money in the

transition so she was extremely,
extremely nervous and anxious

all the time.

I know that my parents
had some very hard times,

and they are where they are
right now because they both,

like, beared down and worked
and did as much as they possibly

could and weren't lazy.

-You know the thing is--
-What I'm trying to kind of
invite you to do is not take

it as only as a concrete reality
but to understand that these are

also anxieties that, when they
get instilled in a young person,

they take on this kind
of mythical quality.

And what I'm trying to
somehow find a way to encourage

curiosity in you is to read
your own anxiety that way.

To understand it as a memory or
something that was handed down

to you like an errand that
was handed down to you by your

family.

I mean--

[Orna] Do you
understand what I'm saying?

Yeah, I understand
what you're saying,

but my gut reaction
to that is, yeah,

but like, I'm right because it's
easy to end up in that place.

You don't want to sit here and
convince me that we all should

be anxious the
way you're anxious.

[laughs]

-You want me to invite you--
-She wants to pervert all of
your patients as well.

To take a look at your
anxiety, do you understand?

[chuckles]

Do you get what I'm saying?

[Michal] Yeah, I get
what you're saying.

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[Orna] We're used to people
being incredibly defensive

around their parents.

They get very protective.

It's as if somebody is blaming
the parents just by figuring out

what happened.

I can get a little bit deeper
into her own anxiety and the

fact that her big outbursts are
not only about him but they're

motivated from another place,
but it's just a little bit.

I think she's a little afraid
of you because she knows you

want her to go somewhere scary.

And you can't really
be anxious with her,

but you could be soft and slow.

She could feel your
companionship and might lean in

a little bit with you and feel
the sadness and the comfort of

your company.

That would be
amazing if that happens.

I mean, I can imagine her
kind of swatting me away.

Yeah, right.
[chuckles]

My mother motivated me
very hard to succeed and,

like, a 98 was never
good enough for her.

It always had to be 100.

But what was it
like to be her daughter?

I remember when I
was in 8th grade,

I made it into the Math
Olympiads and I was the second

tier of the smartest kids in
the United States for math.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

And my mother was disappointed
because I wasn't the first tier.

-[laughing] Oh, my God.
-[Michal] Yeah.

And I remember she actually--
like, she didn't even want to

put my certificate
up on the wall.

Did you say that
that was mean to her?

No.

I mean, at the time
it really hurt me,

but obviously, it's all coming
from a place where she wants the

best for me.

It's not coming from a place
where she genuinely believes

that I'm, like,
a horrible person.

And right now, like, she'll just
be constantly telling me things

that I have to do.

You do that to me a little.

-[Michal] I do.
-A little?

[Michal] I do that
to him all the time.

I don't know,
I live with it okay.

No, I totally realize
that I'm living out this--

-[Orna] Passing it on.
-Yeah, I'm passing it on.

I'm living out this, like,
relationship dynamic that my

mother created.

But why don't we try to
understand this some more?

If you had to imagine,
in addition to her love,

what else was her
investment in your success?

I think that being an immigrant
and moving to this country,

there was this fear in her that
she really didn't want her kids

to have to go through anything
remotely close to what she went

through.

She didn't want me to fail.

She didn't want me to
have an unhappy life.

But what is this
specter of failure?

How does she feel
like a failure?

She talks a lot
about her failings

-and a lot about her regrets.
-Yeah, but there's some
kind of specter of deep--

-[Michal] A lot about regret.
-Okay.

[Michal] She told me more than
once that she regrets she wasn't

able to give us more.

But mostly, she regrets, I
think, maybe parts of how her

life turned out.

So what you're witnessing is
a tremendous sense of failure,

regret, and a lot of investment
in you to make up for that.

[Michal] I guess, yeah.

So maybe that's one way for
you to start understanding this

anxiety.

You're also fixing
something for her.

[Michal] I guess.

I never saw it that way because
to me, I feel like my mom really

relates to her kids as
extensions of herself.

[Orna] Right.

It's such a lack of
differentiation between her and

her kids that you can't even
say in language "I need you to

do this so I will feel better."

Mm-hm.

And you keep going back to
the language of "She wants

what's best for me,
so I can't be angry."

But it kind of puts you under a
certain kind of spell where you

can't utter other words like
"She's very anxious and she

needs me to fix it for her,"
which makes you anxious because

it's an impossible job.

It is impossible.

Yeah, I mean, I hear what
you're saying, but I'm not

that selfless.

I don't spend my time
thinking about her anxieties.

But does everything go through
an analysis as to whether or not

she can know or what she
would or would not approve of?

I don't think so.

I just think she just gave
me, like, a guideline for life.

[Michael] Mm-hm.

[Michal] It's like she
built the blueprints, right?

She drew up the blueprints,
and now they're there.

Right.

And they have nothing to do
with-- I don't refer back to the

blueprint and go, "Well, is
this gonna upset the architect?"

I don't think about that.

Well, it's built
into the blueprint.

The anxiety about the architect
is built into the blueprint.

But I'm never thinking that.

If you were thinking
that, you'd be cured.

-[laughs]
-[laughs]

[Orna] That's how
the unconscious works.

Once you're aware, you
will not be anxious anymore.

I don't-- I don't
know about that.

Everybody, their blueprints of
their mind gets built by their

parents.

Everyone's like that.

And then they can stray
from that to some degree.

There are particular blueprints
that take on-- I mean,

when you're so anxious, it gives
a hint that maybe the blueprint

was not simply a blueprint.

"This is the good life."

But anxiety tells you something
about your parents' unhappiness.

And you're being recruited
to do something about it.

ominous music

I wanted to talk to you
some about Tashira and Dru.

[Virginia] Yeah.

[Orna] And the way he's
dealing with the father-in-law

and this man's violence towards
women is to kind of smooth it

over, make it okay.

And Dru has to understand that
her distance from him is not

only her aloofness
and her withdrawal,

it's also created by him.

One other way to
turn the screw would be,

"So it seems like, Dru, you're
willing to pay the price of more

distance with Tashira than
you would ultimately want to

maintain kind of a warm
feeling toward her dad."

[Orna] Yeah.

It's a price you might
just feel you have to pay.

How did you feel
after last session?

She was upset at me.

[Orna] She was what?

Upset at me.

When we had left here, I
didn't feel like he was being

supportive.

He kind of just like
brushed it all off.

And it feels like...

like almost like he
doesn't believe me because he

sees my dad in such
this wonderful light,

like it didn't happen.

Maybe I don't want
to see him in that light,

you know?

Because I have such a
good relationship with him.

He's going to be in my
life for the rest of my life.

But you're saying maybe
you're keeping a certain,

-uh, blind spot about him.
-[Dru] Yeah.

I just don't want
to see...you know?

I just don't wanna--

[Orna] You don't want
to see disturbing things.

Yeah.

Talking about it, now it feels
like a disconnection with her

dad, and that's
what I was afraid of.

But the disconnection
is because you're letting

information in rather than
keeping it outside of yourself.

[Dru] Yeah, yeah.

So see?

I am taking it in.

I am.

But this is what
I was afraid of.

I know, but I don't
want you to feel like--

Why are you afraid of this?

-Will you lose something?
-Yeah.

[Orna] You'll lose a
certain kind of father figure?

Yes, I would
totally, you know?

And it's just...

I don't want that.

How are you feeling, Tashira?

I'm angry.

I'm confused.

Disappointed.

My father, you know, he's
never put his hands on me,

but just seeing him in
that space is very scary.

Mm-hm.

-[Dru] It's hard to...
-[Orna] To stay in it.

Have your wife telling you
all these things and then you go

to the house and it's
like you have to just

do like it never happened.

[Orna] No, not like
it never happened.

What if you do like it did
happen and you stay in contact?

It's just a
different feeling, I guess.

I don't know to explain it
because I don't even really know

-what's happening.
-It is a different feeling

because you're letting in
information that is not pretty.

When people kind of
disavow what happened,

it leaves you with resentments.

Mm-hm.

In a way, that ultimately comes
back into your relationship.

Oh, 100 percent.

But you don't see yourself as
one piece in the whole dynamic.

What do you mean exactly?

Your difficulty
opening that door--

-[Dru] Uh-huh.
-Is part of what's going on.

It's more of like "it wasn't
done to me" type of thing.

[Orna] Mm-hm, so you
can keep it over there.

[sighs] I guess--

But it's also-- it wasn't done
to you, but things were done to

you.

Maybe you also have your own
reasons to protect yourself from

the knowledge of violence
because you've had actually a

lot of violence
in your life, too.

Uh-huh.

This might be a way that you've
protected yourself over your

life.

I mean, maybe, yeah.

[sighs]

I don't see what my
parents did as a violent thing.

You know, if somebody was
to say "Did your parents,

you know, hurt you physically?"

My first thing wouldn't say
"Oh yeah, I got spanked."

-You'd say "No."
-[Dru] Yeah, I would say--

No, I mean, I would say "I
got spanked if I did something

bad or something,
but I don't really s--"

"But they didn't
hurt me physically."

[Dru] [laughs]

-I mean, that's--
-I know.

I know, I understand
this mechanism.

The registration is just...

Yes, the registration is
like you don't give it the full

-meaning of what's going on.
-[Dru] Yes.

To protect your
connection with them,

to keep loving them.

And I guess because it only
happened when we did something

-wrong.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.

It didn't happen just to happen.

My dad didn't drink
and do it, you know?

-Like--
-[Orna] Right.

So at least it had
some lawfulness to it.

Exactly.

It was a correction, you know?

I would feel bad
calling it "violence."

I wouldn't feel right.

So we can call it
organized violence.

Lawful organized
violence. [chuckles]

[laughs]

I don't know.

It's hard for me to
take it in as that.

Does that help you understand
something about Dru's difficulty

-fully empathizing with you?
-[Tashira] Yeah, I mean,

I understand and I understand
everything that he's saying.

He's not...

letting in the hurt of
what happened to him.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

And now things are okay so,
you know, it's kind of like it

didn't really happen or
it's not important anymore.

Mm-hm.

[Tashira] I mean, it's
a little hurtful to me.

Like, he's just
living the fun life.

-He's just watching--
-[Orna] And leaving you alone.

And leaving me to
deal with it by myself,

-yeah, I mean--
-[Orna] Yeah.

[Dru] I guess it
has to do with...

my wife is talking to me
about somebody who hurt her or

who has affected her
a certain way, and...

[Orna] And that person
is right in front of you.

Yeah.

I don't know.

But if you tried to be present
to what that brings up in you

when you're
interacting with him,

it could be interesting.

Not that you have
to do anything.

Uh-huh.

[Orna] But just
witness it in yourself.

Yeah, and then what?

Feel...

Feel whatever comes out.

-Bad things?
-[Orna] Yeah, feel bad things.

But then that's not
being comfortable.

So what?

So why would I put myself in
an uncomfortable situation?

Because you want
to know reality.

And because it's getting in
the way of you connecting with

Tashira.

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