[ba*ls rolling]
[Will VO] [whispering]
Oh, that is so weird.
[ba*ls rolling]
[whispering] That's easy enough.
[ba*ls rolling]
Bingo.
It looks exactly like it
did when you picked it up.
Yeah, that's how you end.
theme music
[Will VO] I'll start this week.
So she keeps saying
that I'm not trying,
so I'd like to know
what she means by that.
[chuckles]
Wait, but I thought
you're starting.
Okay, fair enough. [laughs]
[Orna] That's starting by
immediately passing the ball.
Well, like, it's been
a constant argument.
But what-- for you, I
mean, considering...
what we've talked about so far--
-[Will] Mm-hm.
-What is "trying?"
What is the work you're doing?
Trying to be more appreciative?
[Orna] Mm-hm.
I feel like I still haven't
found a way to...
I guess convey my
appreciation in a way that
resonates with her.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
So in a way, you're describing
the experience that you cannot
reach Ping -- that whatever
you're doing is not reaching.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, she
tells me so. [chuckles]
[Orna] Right, but I'm
just staying with you.
-Yeah.
-It's like when you're...
encased in this way where you
feel like whatever you're doing
is not gonna
make a difference...
[Will] Mm.
[Orna] You're creating a
certain kind of forcefield
around you...
Mm-hm.
[Orna] That you've
already given up...
-Mm-hm.
-[Orna] That you've retreated...
Mm-hm.
And it's a very
powerful forcefield.
Yeah, I mean, I just-- [sighs]
I get to that point where I feel
like I've tried everything and I
just don't know what else to do.
Mm-hm.
[Will] So, like, I feel
like I'm listening more,
and I feel like
I'm retreating less.
Are you noticing any of that?
I'm noticing that
he's making, uh...
a lot more effort in us
spending time together,
I'm noticing that he--
That's...major.
Yeah, it's major, but it
comes with its conditions,
you know?
I mean, we were at a dinner at
a really romantic place a couple
of nights ago, and...
I was looking at him and I was
trying to engage him in just...
not just conversation,
but just being present,
and I feel like that's
always a struggle with him;
he can't be present with me.
Everything has gotta be just...
He's distracted all the time,
and then he looks at me,
and he gives me these
comical winks, like...
in the middle of dinner!
I'm like, "I'm trying
to look at you!
Why do you wink
at me like that?"
He's like, "What, I
can't give you a wink?!"
So you're trying
to make contact,
and you feel like
Will is not present.
I feel like he's
not present, and--
-[Orna] Okay.
-Yeah.
[Orna] Pause.
Will, say what it's
like on your end.
How are you
feeling sitting there?
[Will] Yeah, it was like we
were having a nice dinner--
Mm-hm.
It was a new place we
wanted to check out and...
and yeah, I look
over and she's kinda,
like, staring at
me all flirtatious,
so I gave her a wink.
You weren't sitting
there feeling...
shut-down, remote?
-[Will] No.
-No.
So what if that's Will's
way of being present?
What you're interpreting
as "not present" is simply Will
being Will.
Yeah, I'm thinking that...
you know, I'm-- that
night was the first night I...
looked at him
without the contempt,
without the resentment--
Right, and it
sounds like he felt it.
-[Ping] Without the hate--
-Right!
[Ping] Without all of
this baggage, right?
Right, amazing.
Yeah, so I brought myself there.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
I wanted to be in the
moment with him, and...
that was an opportu-- for me,
that was an opportunity for him
to kind of return
that energy, right?
-Because we were there--
-He was trying in his own way.
Maybe that is my problem;
that's the deeper issue is that
when I'm trying to be
present with someone,
I don't wanna be winked
at eight times in a row.
That's not flirtatious,
that's just obnoxious.
It's like trying to have a
conversation with someone about
something deep--
-[Orna] Hold on, hold on.
-[Ping] [sighs]
What you're just doing right
now is rather than talk about
whatever feelings,
you're being critical.
Okay, [sighs] so...
I miss...
the way we used to be when
we would communicate with just...
our body language, right?
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-I miss the...
that chemistry, you know?
[Orna] Mm-hm.
I'm trying to recapture
that, I'm trying to,
you know-- I'm trying to dig it
out from all the crap that we've
piled on top of it--
[Orna] Mm-hm.
And when he does that --
Will being Will -- I feel like he's
not honoring what we used to
be or what I need from him in
the moment.
The thing I don't
get, though, is,
like, I've always been a
little bit silly and goofy, and...
[Orna] Mm-hm.
She used to laugh with
me and play with me,
and now, it aggravates her.
Well, it sounds like Ping
is saying that she's missing
something else.
Can you say what you're missing?
Well, in that particular moment,
I was really missing...
the person I fell in love with,
the person that was able to look
at me without...
all this extra stuff.
And yeah, there's-- you know,
we have our jovial moments,
but we had...
deep, intimate moments--
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-And...
in that particular
moment, it just felt
like he was resisting...
getting there with me, and...
and I felt rejected.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-You know?
And...
I know a wink is just
a wink, it's just a wink,
whatever, but it just--
-You felt rejected.
-[Ping] I felt rejected.
Mm-hm.
[Ping] I felt like he
wasn't there with me.
Mm-hm.
It's hard to have the patience.
Well, that's-- that's
what I'm struggling with is
because, you know,
we've been together,
what, six, seven years, and
I feel like I've been patient,
I've been trying
to understand him,
and I was thinking
about it the other day;
one of the reasons why...
I did fall in love with him,
because I saw a little bit of me
-- the younger
version of me -- in him,
and I wanted to take
care of that person,
and I wanted to be there in
a way that nobody was there
for me.
What did you see?
That inner child -- you know,
the one that was neglected,
that wasn't given what
they needed, you know?
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-But...
Yeah, and that's what
connected me to him.
But I think over the years, I
found myself not getting what I
needed, and however I
expressed whatever I need,
he didn't hear it, I didn't
feel like he listened,
and I'm just tired.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-Like...
you know, it's-- he
thinks I'm crying "Wolf."
He's like, "Oh, you always
say you're gonna leave."
I'm like, "No!
I don't want to leave!
I'm telling you I
don't want to leave,
but I feel like we're gonna
get to a certain point...
where...
[voice cracking] I'm done!
I-- I can't do this anymore!"
Like, yeah, I have
things I have to work on,
but I feel like you're so
encapsulated in your own sh*t
that you can't see
what you're throwing out,
and if you want to
throw it out, then fine!
Then let me go!
Move on!
I would like to
move on with my life.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
I feel like, you know, it's
not my job to save him.
I need to save myself, I
need to be here for myself.
And I really thought I
had a partner in him,
I thought that we were
kinda kindred spirits that way,
but he's not!
He's a f*cking little boy that
can't get out of his own f*cking
bubble or little cave or
whatever he created for himself,
and I'm tired!
[sniffles]
I'm just tired.
Mm-hm.
I was thinking about what
you told us a few weeks ago.
It's like yeah, I'm
starting to see the...
masochistic dynamic
of our relationship.
It's like okay, how much more
of this do we really need to do to
each other, right?
Do we need to take?
moody ambient music
[boy] Hi, doggy!
-Hi!
-[Orna] Hello!
So two weeks ago,
Molly and Josh had,
like, an interesting...
like, dramatic turn.
Mm-hm.
It was like an
outburst from her of...
impatience, like real, deep
impatience with him and,
vicariously, with me.
[Virginia] Uh-huh!
And they...
cancelled the next session.
Hm.
With a pretend
excuse or not even?
Nope, not a
pretend excuse at all.
They suddenly got freaked out.
You know how there's that
moment in therapy where...
you hit, like, a real
spot, and suddenly,
you decide, "I don't
need therapy anymore?"
[Virginia] Absolutely.
[Orna] So they got terrified.
Right.
I wonder if, in part, it was
because the amount of intensity
and exhaustion and truth that
occurred in that session was a
breakthrough.
[Orna VO] Yeah.
You could sort of see the entire
dynamic in that vignette that
they came in with--
[Virginia VO] Yeah.
[Orna VO] With the whiteboard
and the choice of colors.
When she's creating these
scenes and setting it up with her
universe in her language--
[Virginia VO] Yeah.
[Orna VO] He's not
comfortable there.
Not only not comfortable, he
may not want to be speaking her
language--
[Virginia VO] Yeah.
[Orna VO] Which is
great for her, actually.
[Virginia VO] Absolutely.
With people who aren't
wired the same way,
there's a lot of
work to be done--
[Orna VO] Mm-hm.
[Virginia VO] To let
everybody be their own person--
[Orna VO] Yeah.
[Virginia VO] And nonetheless
still partner with each other.
[Orna VO] Right.
When we left here last
time, we did not speak--
-Yeah.
-The entire way home.
Yeah.
We didn't speak for
the rest of that evening...
or, really, the next day.
[Molly] Yeah.
I was freaking out; I
was just freaking out,
and I was freaking out because
I think what happened is...
all I could think was
the sensational nature--
Right.
[Josh] Of the stuff
we were talking about.
[Orna] Of course.
And, you know, part of the
anxiety might also be related to
the kind of anxiety one would
always feel in treatment...
-Mm-hm.
-Right?
Because you're
always, in a way...
putting yourself out there,
which is often overwhelming.
-Mm-hm.
-Right?
And part of what
moves the process...
and part of what gets people
out of their stuckness is,
like, involving a third person
and another perspective.
Mm-hm.
Josh, did you have a particular
moment in the session that you
found...
either particularly
difficult, or...
alarming, or transformative,
or something that you were
responding to?
[sighs] It's a little
blurry, honestly, for me.
Um...
like, it's, like, almost
like the drive home is,
like, the thing that's
so vivid in my mind.
Mm-hm, what about it?
Um...
The, like...
I'm trying to be poetic
here, but the-- like,
the really loud silence.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
It felt thick and,
like, oppressive,
like I could feel the space
that was living between us.
-Mm-hm.
-[Josh] You know?
-Mm-hm.
-And...
I didn't work on my argument in
my head that I was going to make
to you, which I do a lot.
I write the scripts...
Oftentimes, I don't even say it.
Yes!
Yes, and that's
why-- oh my gosh!
And that's why...
it felt comfortable for me--
[Orna] Mm-hm.
To be silent, 'cause I also
didn't feel like I had to...
You weren't continuing
a silent conversation.
[Molly] And I didn't
feel like I had to say,
"Honey, are you okay?"
I didn't feel that way.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
And so it was very freeing!
[Orna] Mm-hm.
I found that car ride very...
hopeless, sad,
and comfortable...
strangely.
It just felt like there was
nothing to talk about in that
moment, it was just like...
"Okay. [sighs]
This is where we are, period."
[Orna] Mm-hm.
But I have a feeling, also,
that maybe in that moment,
you were in despair...
that that's what Josh
brings, and it will not
necessarily change.
[Molly] Yes, yes.
[Orna] That you have
to find a different way of
arranging yourself.
Yes.
Yeah, I mean, there-- that's
kind of the hopelessness,
right? Is that...
I don't-- I don't wanna
use the word "settle,"
because I don't like that word.
I think it's the word...um...
"accept."
Mm-hm.
He may never
change, I know that,
but I only have
one chance at life.
Should I be accept--
like, shouldn't I be getting
everything that I want?
-Mm.
-[Molly] [sighs]
moody ambient music
Thank you.
[Orna VO] It's funny;
like two weeks ago,
I had this feeling that all
these crises are coming up.
And I'm working,
working, working,
and I'm like... [inhales deeply]
like, getting nervous
that I'm not managing to,
like, help some of them enough.
But then, just when I
hit that point in myself,
like, the next session, some
of these couples came back,
and they turned the corner.
Like with Cyn and Yaya, they
kept going back -- repeatedly,
like a gong -- to this
sense of failure around
engaging sexually.
Mm.
And I was getting
really worried for them.
Mm-hm.
But then, they come back, and
Yaya says she sold her soul to
the Devil...
-[man] Yes.
-And brought her mother in...
[woman] Mm-hm.
[Orna] [chuckling] And then,
they told me that they did it!
-[man] Yeah.
-[woman] Nice work.
I wonder: how does
the mother link to this?
[man] Yeah.
[Nuar] Something that occurred
to me was that Cyn's sexual
abuse was inside
of the family....
Mm-hm.
And now, she has children,
she's revisiting her trauma,
and sex is inside
of the family again.
-[Orna] Yeah.
-[man] Mm-hm.
That's interesting because
her mother lives with them.
-[man] Mm-hm.
-[woman] She does?
-Okay.
-[man] Cyn's mother.
-Yep.
-[man] Ah.
And one of their kids
is exactly the age that
she was abused.
Oh, wow.
So she's deep in it; she's
being re-traumatized.
-[man] Mm-hm, yeah.
-Yeah.
I wonder if she's ever had this
conversation with her mother.
No, and I've asked them both to
maybe start thinking about doing
those conversations.
-[woman] Yeah.
-Mm-hm.
[Orna] But I know
this is difficult for them.
[man] Mm.
tender ambient music
[Cyn VO] Oh, we
read, by the way.
-[Yaya VO] Yeah.
-[Orna VO] Ah!
[laughter]
[Yaya VO] I was like,
"Ooh, this book is good."
[Orna VO] Mm-hm.
I was like, "I haven't read a
book in a very long time, Orna."
Yeah, honestly, we have
not read a book in a long time.
-Yeah.
-Mm-hm.
When I read the part like...
"You know how people
sometimes feel that sex is just,
like, a spontaneous-- like
it just happens naturally or
whatever?
Like, no, you can
schedule that sh*t.
You can be like,
'Tomorrow, at 5PM,
we're gonna meet and we're
gonna have sex,'" you know?
Mm-hm.
It is kind of all new.
Like, we are kind of...
in the honeymoon phase.
I think it's more
'cause we're trying to...
Well, it's kind of like we're
dating our new vers-- like...
-[Orna] Yeah.
-Our new selves.
-The grown selves.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
Yeah.
'Cause we were-- we were
young when we first got together.
Mm-hm.
You know?
So now we're...
[Cyn] Again, we're
just learning each other.
-That's wonderful.
-[Yaya] Yeah.
So we appreciated that.
Thank you very much
for forcing us to read.
Mm-hm.
She had a conversation with
her mom -- an impromptu one.
Oh, I did! I forgot!
-Wow!
-[Cyn] Oh my God!
Oh, babe, I forgot about that!
No, that was-- that was big.
Tell me!
I said, "All right,
Mom, we gotta talk.
Apparently, this whole thing
that happened with me as a kid
is really affecting me,
so I need to fix this."
Mm-hm.
And that's where she verbalized
that she did actually speak to
my uncle.
She did actually try to keep him
away from us -- or at least from
me -- and I have never
heard her say that.
Wait, when did
she speak with him?
I guess after-- she
said that I told her.
So I don't remember telling her.
Yeah, she said you told
her around eight or nine.
Yeah, and then
she said, "You know,
Cyndy, there's a lot of things
that I went through when I was
younger...
but I don't think
about that anymore."
And I'm like, "Okay."
And I said, "Do you
wanna talk about it?"
And she goes, "I don't
wanna talk about it;
it's gonna bring it up again."
So I just...
let it be.
How did you feel after
this conversation with her?
I felt like... [sighs] lighter.
[Orna] Yeah.
Like, I felt like...
[sighs]
like I was just able to breathe.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
That's very moving.
Yeah, it, um...
I'm hoping that
this'll change...
the relationship that
we currently have...
'cause I don't wanna--
Well, you have at least
a little bit of information
that...
you can't really go back on...
Yeah.
That you did say something,
which I think will change how
you feel about yourself.
Yes.
And it actually did...
even just, like, the slight...
changes.
I can see how keeping to
myself, not saying anything,
not expressing
how I was feeling,
it came out in action.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
And how those actions
started to affect us.
-Yeah.
-[Cyn] So that's helping.
-Yeah.
-[Orna] Wonderful.
So something I want us
to think about together is:
What are each of
you gonna take from...
our work?
Just as something you
can go back to internally...
if things slide back.
For me, the biggest thing
is staying present -- like not
switching off the
light, you know?
Being communicative.
Mm-hm, that's very, very big.
[Cyn] That's one of
your biggest things.
-[Yaya] Yeah.
-You're doing good.
[Orna] And for you, Cyn?
Um...
I'm gonna just keep
telling you what I want.
[chuckles] But also want--
[chuckling] You've always
told me what you want.
I think it's more of being
completely honest with her, too.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
You know, there are
times where I'll tell you stuff,
but I, you know,
omit little details.
Like?
Like crushes.
If I would say I have a crush,
you would just look at it as
"Oh, it's something
that's little,"
but it's not a little
thing, it's a big thing.
Um...
so things like
that, I wouldn't...
keep that from you.
Mm.
And what's your reaction?
I think it's bullshit.
It's bullshit.
-Mm-hm.
-[Yaya] It's like...
right now, I feel raw. I
have all my emotions...
It's just f*cked up.
[voice cracking] You know,
like I feel like I have all my
emotions on my skin...
like, on my surface, and then...
I'm saying what I would do...
to not fall back
into our old habits...
and you're worried
about crushes?
Like, that's...
bullshit.
[Orna] Why do you think of that?
This is me just trying to be...
honest with you.
But why bring it up now,
at this particular moment?
I'm not saying
that as a critique.
-[Cyn] Mm.
-I'm really curious.
[sighs]
Is that, like, self-sabotage?
It's like you're saying
something like...
"But I'm still...
a source of danger."
It's not like I was...
you know, meaning to--
to hurt you all over again.
[sighs] It was just an
example that I used.
I honestly didn't
think of it that way.
And I didn't mean to
make you feel this way.
I think what would be helpful
at this point is not-- Cyn,
not for you to feel
like you need to...
dig yourself out
of some kind of...
-[Cyn] Hole.
-Hole that you fell into...
[Cyn] Mm-hm.
But to ask yourself why did
you create that hole right now.
And Cyn, I would not...
turn this into a big
conversation between the two of
you, but I would
turn it inward into,
like, asking yourself
what, unconsciously,
were you...
[Cyn] Trying to say?
Trying to do or communicate
or communicate to yourself or to
Yaya.
Mm.
Or to me.
Maybe you're saying
something to me.
[Cyn] Mm.
Maybe you're telling
me our work is not done.
[sighs]
tender piano music
I've been staring out my window
Not sure if I have
the strength to go
Been staring out this window
Knowing I can't stay no more
I've been thinkin'
'bout my own self
I've been thinkin'
'bout my own self
So I need to lift
from this perch
[Fly Away]
I need to find the
strength for my search
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