03x12 - Episode 12

[bunniefuu]

[Natasha] There's a ritual
about coming to therapy that

makes it this very
safe, open space.

Mm-hm.

At home, the conversation ends
up spiraling into a point where

I feel very defensive.

[Brock VO] Little things
turn into big things,

which can turn
into blow-up things.

And then it just swings back
and forth until we're in a death

spiral.

[Orna VO] Some couples
walk in in a state of crisis,

so what they need from me
is to help them understand

what it is that gets them into
these loops of fighting that

they assume is just a must-be.

If that doesn't shift,

something about the
work is not going well.

Okay, what do you think that is?

- [Nadine] What, the painting?
- [Christine] Yeah.

It's whatever you want it to be.

I mean, isn't that
the whole point?

[laughs]

What is it to you?

[silly voice]
"Whatever you want it to be!"

Well...

I think how it works is
whatever you see is...

A projection?

A window into your subconscious.

I mean, I see some happy
faces, I see some faces.

So, like, that one, he's...
That one's freaking out.

That one's happy down there.

That one's angry.
[laughs]

I see a cross, a lot of blood,
maybe that's a waterfall that's

- frozen, and more blood...
- Maybe a polar bear?

- Maybe a... [laughs]
- [laughing] Just a lot of blood.

Oh God...

[laughing] A
m*ssacre happened here.

It does kind of look like
the Antarctic or something.

- Sure.
- Yeah.

With a lot of blood.

Do we talk about yesterday?

Bring it up now?

[Nadine] Whenever
you want it to come out.

[Christine] Okay, so,
uh, it came up yesterday.

While I was out with a friend,
Nadine went to see one of her

- lovers without telling me.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.

I felt that a boundary was
crossed because there was no

communication about
her going to see them.

And this isn't the first time a
boundary has been crossed with

this particular person.

And so, the primary thing I say
when we're really not getting

along and I'm really struggling
to establish boundaries or

feeling like boundaries are
not being honored is to say,

"Let's move apart."

"You need to move out" and
"Let's move apart" are very

- different energies.
- [Christine] Yeah, okay, okay.

"You need to move out."

My experience was
a little different.

- [Orna] Tell me.
- Um...

That person, they had
gotten their period,

they weren't feeling well, I
asked them if they wanted weed.

It was a literal
four-second interaction,

like, boom, boom, "Bye,"
'cause I was so afraid of

what it would
create in the home.

I said, "Hey, this
is what happened,"

and then immediately... [snaps]
- - "You need to move out."

I mean, the energy was not
calm and cool and collected.

And mind you, I'm,
like, in the bathtub,

so, like, I'm,
like, trying to, like,

have a conversation and
trying to relax or whatever.

So then it's just, like,
this very intense conversation,

and it even... like, the way it...

What happens in
the conversation?

You know, I was like, "My
feelings are growing deeper,"

and... and I expressed all that,
so I couldn't understand why

-she...
-[Orna] "My feelings are...?"

For the other person.

More than that.

There were very
particular words that were said.

- [Nadine] Okay.
- Like?

[chuckles]

I might be... like, it might
be a love thing, you know?

- That I might be feeling.
- Mm-hm.

And then, um, I feel
like I can't even, um...

I don't know what to do
with myself with how I'm feeling

towards this person, what
it's creating in the home.

Which does what to you?

I feel like I...
Like I'm a bad partner,

I'm a bad lover,
I'm a bad everything,

and all I do is hurt people, and
this is what I'm doing to her.

And it was literally
like going under the water,

'cause I felt like
I had no... place.

-You had nowhere to go...
-[Nadine] Yes.

Where you didn't feel
Christine's feelings.

[Nadine] Yeah.

And sometimes, it almost feels
like you're responding in a

disproportionate way, because I
feel like you don't like this

process at all.

Like, you don't want to be
open, you don't want to be poly,

you hate it, and now,
like, I'm just having to, like,

sit here with you
hating my... this relationship.

If I may?

Sometimes, I feel like I have to
over-exaggerate my response to

say, "This is a boundary.

We cannot keep pushing them,
we cannot keep crossing them.

I do not feel safe
when that happens."

And it's mostly based
in fear and grief, I feel,

and a devastating
amount of grief.

-But...
-Stay...

Tell me about that.

[Christine] Uh, just in the
sense of her having feelings for

someone else.

When you say I'm
not okay with open,

that's no longer true.

But I thought it
would be more playful.

I didn't think it would
be as serious as it is,

where we have committed
relationships with other people.

[voice cracking] And
whatever you have said,

I say... I might
struggle with it,

but I'm always like, "Okay,
let's do it" because I love you.

I was also concerned
that if I were to do that,

you'd be like, "Okay,
well, you're not gonna see

- them on the next day."
- I'm not a crazy person!

- Christine!
- No...

I don't think
you're a crazy person...

[Orna] But hold on.

But let's say Christine
says, "If you're gonna do this,

if you wanna go see
her today or them today,

I don't want you to
see them tomorrow,"

what is the problem with that?

I think I wanted to
do what I wanted to do.

[Orna] Okay.
So there's...

And that's a theme of our
relationship, I feel like.

I want to feel like a
priority, but sometimes,

I feel like, um, I
can't ask for anything,

and even if you're violating
our own agreements that we're

making, you still
do what you want!

And I have to
acquiesce constantly!

Just like,
"Whatever, what can I do?

Oh, that's Nadine, she's
just gonna do her thing."

[both chuckle]

-Can I...
-[Nadine] Yeah, please go.

Ask the two of you
to pause for a second?

- You said a lot.
- [Christine] Yeah.

Meaningful stuff.

First of all, how are you
feeling just hearing it?

I feel like when you tell me
you want structure and...

And predictability,
I'm like, "Sweetheart,

that is n... not only
has that... not me,

that has never been me."

I've always been, like,
very upfront about that.

Like, I don't even know
what I'm gonna do tomorrow.

You know, it's just this kind
of thing that I've noticed about

myself.

It just... it moves a lot.
And...

What was it like
as a little person?

- As a young person?
- I don't... I don't know.

Um...

[Orna] You don't know
because you don't remember?

I don't really remember,
and what I do remember,

I was just really...

chaotic and unhappy.

What was the chaos early on?

So my parents
divorced, they remarried,

they each had two more kids at
the same time when I was 10.

That totally disrupted my...

I mean, that
upended... many things.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

And so, I felt like both of my
families had a family and I was

not part of either of them.

- [Orna] Yeah.
- Yeah.

And that any time something
was wrong in one family,

they would say, "Go
to the other family."

Same, just like that.

- So kind of displaced...
- [Nadine] Yes.

Homeless...

Oh, emotionally just
totally discarded, yeah.

[Orna] Yeah.

Sorry I said you
had to move out.

No, you're fine.
What?

Oh, that's okay.

Sorry, I said you had to
move out; how terrible!

Mm-hm.

Yeah, I'm just, like,
being your parent again.

Yeah.

And I feel like I can't escape.

- [Christine] Oh, man.
- You can't escape...?

Feeling unwanted,
feeling like, "Godda... "

Like, if I feel a touch of,
like, "Someone doesn't want me

in this space," like,
that'll just set me off.

Not in, like, an expl*sive way,
but just, like, I'll leave;

I don't wanna be there.

Especially when I
don't know what I'm doing!

I do not know what I'm doing, I
don't know... I feel like so many

people are trying to be open
and polyamorous and all these

things, and I don't
know how to navigate it.

So I guess one question: what
is motivating the two of you

to be together?

- [chuckles]
- Oh!

Um, okay, um...

I love...

everything that she
brings to my life.

I mean, totally as if she took...

Like, as if I was like this, and
then she gave me glasses,

and I was like... I... I felt
like I could see the world.

And there's no one
I'd rather talk to,

there's no one I'd
rather bounce ide...

Like, you know?

It's just really
rich, um, and, like,

deeply spiritual and
connected and, uh, like...

I feel that, like, deeply
in every cell of my body.

Like, there's no
mistake about that.

[voice cracking] And, um, I feel
like she's supposed to be in my

life, or I want her,
at the very least,

to be in my life, um,
in a long-term way.

Mm-hm.

Upbeat music

I can't get enough of you

I can't get enough of you

Where did you come from?

I can't get enough of you

I can't get enough of you

Where did you come from?

[door shuts]

[Orna VO] How did you
feel after our last session?

Felt like we wasted an hour
that we could have used

to get somewhere in
our relationship.

We don't get anywhere arguing,

which is why I put
my boundaries in place,

because if we can't have
a healthy conversation,

it's just detrimental.

I wanna take a pause from this
and just ask the two of you a

little bit about
your early history.

[Sean] Mm-hm.

Just to get a
sense of who you are.

- Just growing up and...
- You gonna go first, or me?

Sure, uh...

I experienced a lot of loss...

at a early age.

My mom's dad was sick at
the same time as my mom,

and so he died November of 2000,

and then she died
February of 2001.

Wow.

-[Sean] So...
-And you were young?

[Sean] I was 18 when
they both got sick,

and I had just graduated
from high school and I was...

[Orna] What was her condition?

[Sean] She had
bone marrow cancer.

[Orna] Yeah.

What happened to you
when they both died?

Um, I had a huge hole.

[Orna] Yeah.

Just a...

it's a void that's
never gonna be filled.

Right.

And so for me, I don't...

I look at Erica and I'm like,

"Man, I would absolutely hate
to not have her in my life.

But at the same time, if I
make her miserable and unhappy,

I would hate to be..."

Wait, how... how did we...

-[Sean] I... I mean, just...
-Jump to that?

- I'm lost.
- [sighs]

I... I... I
started to sense, like,

what you've been through and...

- this hole that you...
- [Sean] Mm-hm.

Were left with.

And then you turned to
Erica to talk about Erica.

[sighs] Erica...

I wanna know more of
what happened to you.

I don't wanna sit
here and dwell on...

what can't be changed.

But what are you
saying with that?

She cares more about punishing
me for the ways that I have hurt

her...

than anything.

So it's like, for me, okay,
you're... you're going back to

the same thing that you've been
mad at me about for the last six

months, and we just had a great
day and we've been having a

great evening, but now, I
gotta hear about this again.

I guess I don't know if
he understands, like,

how deeply-rooted
that he has damaged...

our relationship and me...
Me within the relationship.

Mm-hm.

Not even by the sex act, per se,

but just by the
level of betrayal.

Like, you lied to me in my face,

and I don't deserve to be pissed
on and treated the way you did

- to me.
- Who does?

I get it; I did what I did.

But you talk...

So stop belittling it!

I'm not belittling it!
But it's the same...

[Orna] Sean, there
is a way... I mean,

that's what I was trying
to get at last session.

Okay, so...

You don't seem to be moved
by how much pain you've caused,

because you're
asking Erica to say,

"This is...
Everything is great."

I'm not!

Meanwhile, there's something
that, at least for Erica,

is really hurting her.

You can say again
and again and again,

"We have a great marriage,"
but you're doing things that are

hurting Erica.

I did do things that hurt Erica.

- [Orna] Yeah!
- Yes.

So...

But why is it that we're still
talking about things that...

Well, from what I'm seeing,
there's some kind of repair that

is not happening.

There's not an answer that I'm
gonna give her that's gonna make

her feel better
about what I did.

Right, but just to try to
stay more to the point here,

something needs to be repaired.

Yeah.

You can't repair
with that attitude.

You can repair
by truly imagining

what kind of damage or hurt
you've caused the other person

and finding a way to open
yourself up to feeling some kind

- of remorse.
- Mm-hm.

[Orna] That's where
repair comes from.

Mm-hm.

But that's her attitude.

What do you mean?

I mean that's her attitude.

- [Orna] Towards you?
- Yes.

Well, from what I've seen here,
that has been your attitude.

You might be doing something...

Well, you're seeing me six
months of being badgered,

- punched on...
- [Orna] Mm-hm.

On repeat.

My impression is that
there's some way that you're not

bringing yourself to the table.

I... I don't know how else I
can bring myself to the table.

Every time that
topic comes up...

[clears throat]

It turns into a drag-out
argument because my answers

don't make her feel better.

It doesn't fix a problem, it
makes for more of an issue.

Maybe I want Sean to tell me
actually what the role I did

play in his cheating, because I
think I need to understand that.

My infidelity was
me being selfish.

The only role you played in
that is that in our previous

-conversations that we've had...
-No, that's bull.

About what is and isn't okay,
you have said things that have

led me to believe I was able to
give myself more leeway than I

typically would.

That's bullshit
and you know that.

-I just...
-It's not, it's not!

You're... you're on
some other level.

And it's not!

People do announce that their
relationship has a component of

non-monogamy... what they
"ethical non-monogamy,"

- where they're honest.
- [Sean] Mm-hm.

Why not that?

If we were to say that's
what our relationship is on...

[Orna] Mm-hm.

I would still have the same
code of silence that I have

always had.

But code of silence is
different than being honest.

[Sean] Mm-hm.

Right, that's dishonesty.

No, it's not, because when you
asked the appropriate question,

- did I not answer it?
- No, Sean, come on.

- Let's not do...
- [Sean] No, I'm just saying.

I'm never gonna be somebody who
goes out and sleeps with another

woman and wants to come home
and talk about it with my wife.

That's just... nah.

I don't care about what you're
doing when you are not with me,

so if you're gonna do it, be
prepared to take it to your

grave, 'cause I don't
wanna hear about it.

What I don't know is
not going to piss me off.

Melancholy music

Thank you.

Much better session!
[chuckles]

[Erica] Have a good one,
thank you.

[Orna VO] I could
not get any traction.

Whenever the focus is on him in
a way that requires of him to

own him causing distress,

he can't really
show up for that.

Yeah.

There's never been a moment in
which I saw him kind of pause

and say, "I can see
that would be hurtful."

- Ever.
- Yeah.

I feel frustrated with him
for not engaging in actual

- self-reflection.
- [Virginia] Right.

[Orna] I feel kind of at the
limits of just my technique.

I mean, there must be other
ways to work with this that

are...  other therapists can do.

I don't know how
to work with this.

[Virginia] Then I would say so.

"So the only thing I can see
is that we need to sadly say

goodbye because I can't
help you in this way.

Or I need you to
take a chance on me

and not fight me so hard and
let me see if I can find you,

'cause right now,
I don't have you.

I haven't found you;
I don't know you."

Mm-hm.

Mellow quirky music

[dog barks]

[Brock VO] Kristi
is the most creative,

like, honestly
smartest person I know.

She is incredibly connected,
and it's a beautiful thing,

like, what an empath she is.

And at the same time, she
really, really hurt me.

I had a red line
for our marriage,

and she knew the red
line, 'cause I told her.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

Like, "Look, like, if we decide
to open this together, right?

He is... he... you... you
cannot be with him."

[Orna] Mm-hm.

"Like, that will screw me up.

Like, that will f*ck me up.

Like, I don't know how
I'm gonna react to that."

[Orna] Mm-hm.

[Brock] And I made it
incredibly clear, right?

[sighs] So this
guy comes into town.

Mm-hm.

And I didn't bug them.

Like, you guys went to a
museum for a long time one day.

The next day...

You had work to do
and I had an afternoon!

But the point is,
like, you didn't invite me.

- [sighing] Oh my God...
- That's kind of important,

right?

-And Kristi, like...
-Can I... can I...

- [Brock] Yeah.
- Stop you for a second?

Kristi, I want you to try
to listen differently...

Not for the facts, for
how things really unfolded,

but for Brock's story.

Like, how he experienced it.

It's more interesting than
the actual sequence of events.

It's like how each person
really felt it from within.

[whispering] Okay.

[sighing] Okay, so anyway, the
sequence of events after that is

blurry, but two days later,

he slept with Kristi.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

And, like...
[sighs]

I just remember weirdly,
like, three feelings...

Like, very... it's
a very strange mix.

Like, I remember
being so angry at her.

I remember still,
like, loving her,

which I was confused by.

And then, the next
day, like, I just felt...

free.

It was like I no longer
had to, like, care for her.

I no longer had to care
what her opinions were.

Mm-hm.

And that's when I
was like, "Okay,

then we just
opened the marriage."

Like, I was not gonna have "No"
for an answer at this point.

It was like, you know,
"No, we're doing this now,"

right?

That was, like, a
really bad time,

because I was a
horrible husband...

but I also felt
incredibly powerful.

Like, I felt like, "I
am finally in control."

And so I went on some dates.

I was intimate with someone.

Um...

it's an interesting feeling,
after 15 years of being with one

person, to go out with
other people and realize,

"Oh, like, hey!

Like, I... I am really
kind of a likable guy,"

- you know?
- Mm-hm.

And so she got
really uncomfortable,

so we shut the marriage,

and then I felt, like...

I felt controlled again.

And the anger just,
like... it was just so bad.

And I was like,
"I want a divorce.

Like, I can't do this."

And she apologized; she
said, "Let's give it 30 days."

I said,  "Fine."

And then we gave it 30 days.

And then we slowly
started to rebuild.

- [Orna] Can I check in with you?
- Mm-hm.

On your end, Kristi, what
happened when the two of you

were trying to talk about it?

[sighs]

It was just brutal, just brutal.

I felt like I was
trying to, like...

hold our world
from blowing apart.

Single-handedly.

'Cause he was on, like,
a destruction course.

I felt awful
because of what I did.

That was just the
worst time in my life.

It sounds very difficult.

[Kristi] [whispering] Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, can you assess
where you are now in terms of,

like, where this sits
between the two of you,

and how much do you feel
understood and understand each

other?

[Brock] [sighs]

I don't know how
much you realize, like,

how much I think about it.

Like, it's not something
that I just... has gone away.

Mm-hm.

Where is it for you?

I do think about
it... frequently...

in a different way than Brock.

Like, I think about it as
something that I'm really...

proud of us for enduring and for
making our way through together.

Mm-hm.

And sometimes, even just,
like, hearing you talk...

[sighs] it sounds crazy but
I almost want to thank you.

I'm like, "I freed you.

I freed you from an old way of
loving that actually wasn't real

love.

Like, I freed you from a love
that was just commitment and

duty, and you do it
just because you do,

and you show up,
and that's love."

I know that it was the worst
thing that I could have done.

And you're right, I knew
that that was your red line.

I knew that all along.

- [sighs]
- And I still did it.

[laughs]

And I...

am proud of myself!

I don't know how else to say it.

[sighs]

[Orna] Do you have a reaction?

Yeah.

It's "This is... this is
the narrative that is

impossible for me to accept."

Like, this idea that I'm
supposed to thank you

for dancing with the
Devil and being so brave,

and doing this
horrible thing to me.

[sighs]

It's not like I set
out with that intention.

[Brock] I... I know,
but it's... you...

You make yourself out in this
narrative to be the hero.

You're totally forgetting that
I was ready to explore an open

relationship!

Like, this did not
have to happen...

for us to break...

[sighs]

That is hard for me, right?

Because when you say that,

I feel like I kind
of got sacrificed.

Like...

You also know that it
wasn't just about you.

I know it wasn't
just about me...

- But you always forget it!
- But...

But do you... but before
you go back to yourself,

Kristi, can you go in
Brock's direction temporarily?

[Kristi] Yeah, no, I see that!

[Orna] But what's preventing
you from expressing it fully?

[sighs] Just some resentment.

I feel like...

Brock is asking me to grant him
understanding that he doesn't

extend my way.

What makes you feel
like I don't understand...

your feelings?

'Cause I don't think that you
saw how you sacrificed me for

years before any of
this even happened!

You're right, I don't...
I... I have a very hard time,

like, drawing a parallel

or understanding
how I sacrificed you,

because I was there for you,
I just went to church.

N...  you...  Brock...

[chuckles]

I was so open with
you and so honest

about how the
church had hurt me,

how it had been an ab*ser to me,

and you still f*cked with it!

Do you not see how
that is a betrayal?!

How I would feel
sacrificed in that?!

Like, even just a
couple weeks ago at dinner,

we were sharing with some
friends about our process of

leaving the church,
everything, and Brock says,

"Well, you know, like,
Kristi left but, like,

I just really needed to
leave for personal reasons."

And I said to you
for the first time, like,

"Why was I not
a personal reason?"

Why was I not a
personal reason?!

Why am I... your wife,
your love, your beloved...

Not a personal reason?!

I don't understand that!

[sighs]

[sighs]

moody piano music

[Virginia VO] He begged her not
to sleep with that particular

- person.
- [Orna VO] Yes.

And I'm seeing how catastrophic
that would be if I were him.

Humiliating beyond humiliating.

Yeah.

Why did she do that?

Wrapped in your sheets

A little longer

Only dreams to keep me warm

But there's something in my
lungs that makes me wonder

You ask me where I'll be

Without him still loving me

At the end of the night

At the end of the night

You'll find I'm sleeping in my
own bed, sleeping in my own bed

You'll find I'm sleeping in my
own bed, sleeping in my own bed

You'll find I'm sleeping in my
own bed, sleeping in my own bed

You'll find I'm sleeping in my
own bed, sleeping in my own bed

And I'd love to be

With you in autumn

Like the colors of your soul

But I feel so green

My sole reminder

How I love to paint my own

Oh, I heard you in the
dark when I was lonely...