05x08 - Episode 8

[bunniefuu]

You are special to me because you are who you are.

But then why are you seeking these other people?

He hurt me.

[Orna] He hurt you, yes.

People who hurt me don't deserve to get close to me again.

I feel very inadequate.

I feel I was not enough in the relationship

when you kept focusing on the fact

that I could not contribute financially.

[Shay]Tell me what you want.

What do you want to explain?

I was saying that me and the other person kind of got closer

as, like, friends because we're both autistic.

So we, like, related in certain ways.

I know why I'm here.

I'm here to understand...

where you're at

and if we could possibly have a friendship

like after the fact of our breakup?

You want unconditional love,

and love is conditional in a relationship.

No, it's not!

[Shay] I feel like I'm failing in therapy.

I can't open up enough.

I'm not willing to, like, meet where you're asking me to meet.

I want to ask the two of you, is this useful for you,

these kind of conversations we're having?

I'm trying to, like,

come at it like, "Hey, let's talk about it."

-And let's-- -[Orna] You feel it's useful?

[Clinton] Yeah.

Do you feel like this is useful?

I don't-- I don't want to do this anymore.

[crying softly]

♪ funky music playing ♪

[Orna] Shay and Clinton were not

going in the direction of things

becoming easier between them.

They had this kind of stuck quality

and they were both getting more and more agitated,

and it feels like it's just like...

-[Virginia] Salt in the wound. -Yeah.

It seemed to me that in a therapy context,

you can't have an amicable separation

because it's not so amicable.

They have a better chance of amicably separating

and coming back as friends

or maybe lovers in the future if they separate.

Yes.

I would definitely see them separately.

Interesting.

But I'm not their individual therapist, right?

Right, but if I were their couple's therapist,

I do have individual sessions in the context of couples work.

Interesting.

That's an idea.

-Hello. -Hi.

[Shay] I know, he's not here.

[Orna] Yeah. She looks confused.

-[Shay] She's like, "Where's the other one?"

[Orna] How are you, Clinton?

Uh, I'm okay.

I'm working, spending time with people.

Having fun, like,

investing in hobbies and stuff like that.

He moved on so easy.

He started up a relationship with multiple people.

-[Orna] Mm-hmm. -Directly after our breakup.

-[Orna] Yeah. -It just was like...

[sighs]

All I want her to do is take responsibility

for her part in why the relationship

crumbled the way it did.

I don't mind being the person

who caused harm in our relationship,

but like, where is your part

in how this fell out?

[Orna] The part that I feel like it has been difficult for you

to really own in a more honest way

is what happened with these other people

that you got involved with.

I do not feel like you really took seriously

how it affected Shay.

The reason why that doesn't make a lot of sense to me

is because she's the one that initially

opened the relationship.

[Orna] Anyway, that's what I mean.

It's so weird.

It might be weird,

but it can have an impact.

He flip-flops between, I cared about him viscerally

in a way that he can't find this in these other partnerships,

and I'm this terrible person who never acknowledged his feelings.

And its like, I, like...

[Orna] He does not say

you've never acknowledged his feelings.

He says you don't acknowledge your feelings.

You, in a way,

let him off the hook by being righteous.

Hmm.

Gives him an excuse to just not see your pain.

Yeah.

It would be good for you to take a break...

-Yeah. -...from each other.

I guess we have a few options.

One is to say a nice goodbye,

or would it be useful for the three of us

to sit one more time together in the next few weeks?

I'm okay with the secondary.

I think that might work.

♪ electronic ambient music playing ♪

[thunder rumbling]

[Orna]There are all sorts of romantic fantasies

that people are gonna come out of couple's therapy,

back to their honeymoon phase.

The reality is that people come out

of couples therapy often bruised

with what they've discovered and what they've revealed

because they're really confronting their partner

with difficult material.

[Sienna] I woke up with a really bad headache this morning,

and I started spinning again.

I think I resent the fact that for so long, I was...

dimming myself in effort

to keep the peace.

And now, almost years in,

I don't quite know who I am without you.

And I don't know

where my skin ends and yours starts.

Yeah.

I am so curious as to what life would be like

if I was not with you

and discovering who I am.

I don't know if a separation is...

the thing that I need.

-But it might be. -Yeah.

And I don't know how that would be possible.

Well, let's not immediately rush towards, like,

external fixes.

-Let's... -[Sienna] Okay.

...just understand what's going on.

-[Sienna] Okay. -How are you hearing this?

I appreciate that she felt this feeling

and she didn't bury it and she didn't ignore it.

Um, I love that you brought it up

and I want to help with that.

I don't want you to feel that way.

I-I want to go back to, you framed it...

as a resentment.

Do you want to say more about that?

[Sienna] Yeah.

I feel really, really angry

that it took me finding out

you didn't discover sh*t.

I discovered all of this sh*t,

and then I have to manage all that f*cking pain.

And for you, you're like, "I'm so much better.

This is great now." And I f*cking hate that.

I f*cking hate that so much.

Like, oh my God.

It must be so nice just to f*ck people for two years,

treat me like sh*t and then be like...

"No, it's all found out.

And I can free myself of it."

-I can't free myself of it. -Yeah.

And I had this deep f*cking anger

that I want to just...

I don't want to hold it. I can't hold it anymore.

Like, if I stopped working so hard

and adapting and changing myself

to fit everything,

I don't think we would be together.

[Orna] Describe what would happen.

What would it look like if you let that,

I don't know, shadow part come out?

And how about you let Chris hear some of that?

[Sienna] I've never done that.

I always stay and I always wait

and I always try and I always want to fix,

and I feel myself bucking against that.

And, like, I have this f*cking rage

and I don't have to hold it in anymore,

but I don't know how to do that with him.

I love you. I love our family.

I don't wanna-- I don't think I want to bring the rage there.

How do you feel about Sienna bringing the rage there?

-I am all for it. -[Orna] Mm-hmm.

I think me in a room with her

just going apeshit for minutes

is probably not the greatest course of action.

But, like, whatever...

That's an interesting fantasy you had there, which...

[Chris] Yeah, which is-- Yeah.

I mean, it's like a callback... -Yes.

...you know? -Yeah.

Call back to what?

Just, like, the whole therapy process.

The whole history.

It's interesting terminology... -Sorry.

...that you chose.

-Sorry. -You're not gonna address that?

Apeshit?

-The angry black woman trope. -Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.

Wow. Yeah.

[Orna] Right, but maybe the angry black woman

doesn't allow herself to be...

-Of course not. -...the angry black woman.

Being in the professional world now,

like, there's so many times I see it, I'm witness to it,

I experience it.

This... f*ck!

This is what it is.

I feel like I'm small in all these areas...

-[Orna] Mm-hmm. -...of my identity.

I have to make myself small all the f*cking time.

Yeah.

I'm sick of it. I want to get the f*ck out of here.

I just want to do something else. I want to like...

It really feels like I want to just break it down, I think.

I think I want to break us.

Chris, how are you doing?

First, I think this is, like, so big, and so...

I can't imagine what you're feeling,

and that must be f*cking awful.

But I want to be there in ways that I wasn't before

to help you through it.

You can trust, or please trust me.

♪ acoustic music playing ♪

♪ acoustic music continues ♪

[Virginia]Marjorie has already said quite a few times,

-"I know I shouldn't be mean." -[Orna]Mm-hmm.

When what she'd like to do is

sock it to him. -Yeah. Right.

You could see her,

-"I know, and I'm gonna try." -Yeah.

-And I felt that moving along. -She's not mean at all anymore.

I mean, she hasn't said any

mean thing at all. -... I see.

There's something that really softened between them.

I mean, she can get really pissed off at him.

There was that time

where he goes behind her back and sends an email to her mom.

But she just finds her way back to seeing the good in him.

[Marjorie] I feel great.

-[Orna] Yeah? -Honestly. Yeah.

-I feel really good recently. -Wow.

I feel, like, so in love with him.

-Mm-hmm. -But he never tells me

he's so in love with me.

I know he loves me. We say, "I love you."

But he doesn't like to talk about his feelings like that.

He's not very verbal about loving stuff like, you know?

That could be so fun for you to do.

How about you experiment with that?

Yeah. Yeah.

I'm not complaining by any means.

I'm just feeling extra love towards him, you know?

I'm feeling like, extra connected.

I don't know what I did last couple of days

to turn that around for you.

-Yes, you do. -No, I don't.

Yes, you have to realize why I feel happier.

Oh, I don't know.

Because we've had sex more often.

You know? Honestly, not that we talk--

-We don't talk about that. -That's so embarrassing.

-Exac-- Like, I know... -That's embarrassing?

[Jason] I don't know.

He doesn't want to talk about intimate stuff.

-I guess, I don't know... -You're with a therapist.

I'm not embarrased.

But yeah, maybe. A little more connection, right?

-[Orna] Mm-hmm. -Yeah. Yeah.

That's a good sign.

What are you noticing as far as listening to each other?

Any change there?

There's a difference in how we talk to each other.

Of course, we still fight and I'll still curse him out.

It's just our nature, you know?

But it's not like bad fighting anymore.

Like, I would be "mad" mad, you know what I mean?

-Like "mad" mad. But... -What about the listening?

[Jason] I feel like, you know, I would bring up points

and she would immediately reject them.

Even if they're valid sound points,

it would just get rejected

because of where it's coming from.

Mm-hmm.

But now I get, "I understand.

I understand. I hear you. I'm on your side. I'm with it."

-You know? -[Orna] Wow.

So I hear that. I hear that.

You're saying that Marjorie has really

changed her way of listening to you.

Yeah, I think it's definitely... -Improved?

it's going in the right direction.

And do you feel like you're listening differently?

[Jason] Yeah, I mean, for example,

like the politics stuff.

I got out of the politics.

I'm not paying attention anymore.

It's not worth us fighting about it.

So I just don't pay attention anymore.

I don't watch the news.

I don't read articles.

So that you don't get into fights?

[Jason] So we don't fight.

We should revisit that

to see what would happen if you tried.

Oof! Can I say something? I know you want to revisit it.

But if I do tell him something that's in a current event,

whatever I think about the situation,

he'll have the opposite feeling.

When I hear you express anything political, right,

I see the little seed that's way deep inside of you

that just has hate for Trump and the administration.

That is what is loud and clear to me.

You know?

[Orna] Do you think that's the main thing that matters to you?

Absolutely not.

Okay, so I have a suggestion for you.

You don't have to agree

with what Marjorie is saying for yourself.

-[Jason] Yeah. -But why don't you try

to understand her?

What matters to her?

I try. I really try.

But you have to separate your own agenda

and listen to her on her terms.

Why don't you finish what you're saying

and you do your best to just listen.

What matters to me is what the actions that they are causing

that are hurting our American people.

We are fighting each other against something--

-And I'm so passionate about. -Hold on one second. One second.

Just so you know,

Marjorie's talking, and you're going like this.

Yeah, because she's full of sh*t.

-I'm not full sh*t. -Full of sh*t.

It's all-- It's Trump Derangement Syndrome.

This is, to me, an indication

that we haven't gotten very far in our work.

[laughing] Not... not... not...

Not-- Well, this is why I don't participate

in any of these conversations with her anymore.

[Orna] But I'm not talking to the two of you

right now about politics.

I'm talking to you about,

can you listen to each other?

Mm-hmm.

I feel like when I get going, you cut me off.

Let's try again.

I'm scared. I'm scared of what is happening

because I see it.

Just because we're not the ones

you know, who are American citizens

being detained by ICE,

the National Guard and the military

are attacking our cities.

It is so f*cking scary that it keeps me up at night

because I have kids in this world to raise,

and it's scary as f*ck.

And it breaks my heart.

What are you hearing?

Not what do you agree with? What are you hearing?

[Jason] Uh, I hear you saying, like,

you know, that things are falling apart

and, you know, they're detaining,

and National Guard is rushing in

and unjustly behaviors on individuals and...

you know, and sh*t is hitting the fan and it's very not fair.

And you're very upset about it.

That's what I hear.

She says she's afraid

and wakes up at night from it.

[Jason] Yeah, yeah.

That it's gotten you in a place

where you're so wrapped in it

and you're so worried about it

that it's keeping you up at night,

and that sucks, and I apologize for that.

Why do you have to apologize?

Because I don't want to feel-- I love her.

I don't want her to be up at night over this, you know?

Do you want to try the other way?

Like, tell Marjorie how you feel about things

and see if she can hear you on your terms?

I'm still happy I voted for Trump.

I'm still hopeful that things are going to get better

for the country, and I feel like

we are heading in the right direction in some areas,

and I think some areas may be taking some steps back.

I think that there's been innocent bystanders

that may have got harmed, you know, unjustly,

but I feel the work that they're putting in

is pointing in the right direction,

and I have hope.

I have hope. I have hope.

[Orna] What are you hearing, Marjorie?

That he is happy that he voted the way he voted.

He agrees with some of the things

that are happening out there,

and he also doesn't agree,

and he's sad that if other people are getting hurt,

it's affecting them.

He didn't vote to hurt people,

but he still would vote the same way.

I think the hopeful piece

is important. -[Marjorie] And the hopeful--

Yeah, and the hopeful.

-Because he's hopeful, yes. -[Jason] Hopeful.

[Orna] He wants to remain hopeful.

-He wants to remain hopeful. -[Orna] He's committed to that.

-Mm-hmm. -Yeah.

So how do the two of you feel now?

I mean, I feel a little better that I was able to,

you know, kind of express, you know, how I'm feeling

-without attacking anybody. -[Orna] Yeah.

I didn't talk and attack anybody,

and I feel better that I was able to express that way.

And you?

He eventually understood

my reasons and passion

for why I'm so upset.

I feel like he hears that.

So, there might be a way to talk

that doesn't elicit an argument.

Maybe I can just not even talk about the administration,

just talk about what's actually happening

and how it's affecting me.

Well, I could tell you a guy being detained

sounds horrific for that person

because I myself has been detained.

And that's horrible that the guy was detained.

-I don't know the story. -The guy? Which one?

But if he was innocent guy and he shouldn't

have been held away from his family or locked in a

cell somewhere, that's wrong.

And if Marjorie came to you

with her upset about this...

I would say that's totally wrong.

That's wrong.

That guy shouldn't have been locked up like that.

You know, an innocent guy should not be.

I feel I heard him, he heard me,

but like, in the back of my mind, it's still...

would he ever admit to, like, maybe saying,

"Oh, maybe I shouldn't. Maybe I didn't see this coming.

This was a bad idea. I shouldn't have voted that way."

Like, that's what's going on in the back of my head.

I think what happens is that in these...

political debates,

one of the things you're asking each other is,

"Can I trust you?"

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. That's interesting.

And that's true.

Wow. Yeah.

Yeah.

♪ uplifting electronic piano music playing ♪

♪ uplifting electronic piano music continues ♪

[Jade]There was something about Drea being asked

to kind of differentiate more,

and her, you know,

inability to do it and her kind of wish

if she just holds on another round,

Nessa will come back.

There was something painful, I think, in the repetition

-of their pattern. -Yes.

They're both faced with a challenge

of how do you emerge out of a...

a relationship that is like, you know,

embryonic to separateness.

I think some people could hear this idea of differentiation

and think, "Wait a minute, we're supposed to be coming together."

[ORNA] Yeah. Mm-hmm.

People's idea of coming together is making same.

We're gonna want the same thing.

We're gonna have the same values.

We're gonna vote for the same person.

And I actually began to wonder

if asking Drea to differentiate

was actually to ask her to do something she could not do.

-[Nessa] You okay? -Yeah.

Yeah.

[sighs]

I feel like Andrea is in a mood,

and I'm trying to balance not overstepping

to find out what it is,

but also I'm very curious.

Mm-hmm.

And you, Drea?

What is Nessa picking up on?

Unfortunately, I think we have plateaued

and I don't want us to get worse.

I don't want us to be in a bad place.

So I am just, you know, moving on...

uh, as gracefully as I can.

I think that the more

I mourn our relationship

and kind of get past that,

the easier it'll be to just transition

into a co-parenting, you know,

we each have our individual lives

where we do the things that we want to do

that we feel serve us,

and then come together

and be great parents.

You've changed.

You've changed.

Sorta.

Yeah.

What's it like to hear Andrea say this?

Hmm.

This is the first time that I've heard it in its entirety.

-[Orna] Mm-hmm. -In this way.

So, like, part-- Like the friend in me,

the best friend in me that I am to her,

is proud of her in that sense.

But there's also still that,

I hope she's not just saying this for you, right?

So there's a little bit of doubt there.

And then the relationship part of me is like, damn,

I'm sitting here

willing to throw away someone that I know

worships the ground I walk on, loves me to no extent.

-And that's scary. -[Orna] Yeah.

-It's very scary. -[Orna] You're scared. Yeah.

It's very scary.

What's that like to hear that?

I don't think that she thinks I have the capacity to...

separate myself from this union and...

go on individually.

And I think I can.

Where are you?

If what Andrea is saying, she truly feels to her core...

then I'm happy for her and I will be her supporter

in that way as long as that's okay.

But I'm asking you-- I'm asking you about yourself,

not as a support.

How are you feeling?

How are you feeling?

I'm feeling like there's a f*cking change in my life,

and I got to figure this sh*t out.

That's what I'm feeling like. It's scary.

It's exciting. It's exhilarating.

It's doubtful. It's, oh my gosh.

It's all those things. I'm feeling all that.

[Orna] Keep going.

Thank you.

We appreciate your candor.

[Orna] That's good to hear that you're feeling.

-Why are you feeling-- -It's a lot.

I mean, because it's...

It's a lot. I mean...

This is a huge...

This is a huge change in my life.

I didn't ask for this feeling.

Nobody thinks you did.

And no one is blaming you. -No, but...

Yes, you do.

And when it comes to, oh, blame, blame, blame.

It's like, okay, I'll be that person, but sh*t.

I didn't ask for any of this.

Of course, I would love to feel comfortable in this situation.

But I don't.

And I also, on top of my own vague ambiguity,

whatever it is, I have to feel responsible

for uprooting her life and her comfort.

So now I am the bad guy. I have to take that on. Okay.

So it's like a whole confusing type of situation there.

[Orna] Yeah. It's a lot.

-It doesn't feel good. -[Orna] Yeah.

And-- And it does at the same time.

So, explain that.

-[Orna] Yeah. -It's f*cking crazy.

-[Orna] No, it's very clear. -[laughing]

It's f*cking crazy.

[Orna] It's not.

[sniffling]

Does it make sense to you, Andrea?

-Of course it does. -[Orna] Yeah.

There's something about...

being the villain and the savior for her.

[Nessa] I think she's spot on with those labels.

If I'm the savior, if I'm the one that's providing

this wonderful life that she wouldn't have had without me

and seen the love she wouldn't have experienced without me,

then I'm the savior.

And then if I'm sitting here like,

"Ah, I can't do this anymore, I'm pulling back,"

I'm the villain.

-Mm-hmm. -[Nessa] They go hand in hand.

I don't think you're the villain.

I don't think there's a villain here.

I think we are two people who have evolved.

Period.

All right.

-Good night. -Thank you.

Good night.

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