01x17 - Mother Caught in the Middle

[bunniefuu]

You had a close
relationship with your mother.

-Yes.
-[sobs]

[Judy] At some point,
your daughter-in-law

filed a restraining order against you.

You have two children together.

Yes, ma'am.

Clearly, your child
had a relationship

with his grandmother.

You should find a way
of making sure

that that relationship continues.

[narrator]
This is Judy Justice.

[theme music]

Dawn Gilbert is suing her son
Nathan Gilbert

and his wife Hanna Gilbert

for unpaid loans,
car insurance,

and filing a false
restraining order.

[Kevin] All rise.
Court, come to order.

Morning. Morning.

Have a seat, please.

-[Kevin] Good morning, Judge.
-[Judy] Morning.

Case number 1053,
Gilbert versus Gilbert.

-Thank you.
-You're welcome.

[Judy] Mrs. Gilbert,
this is your son?

-Correct.
-[Judy] And the young lady

with him is his wife?

-Correct.
-[Judy] This is your claim:

There was a time
that there was some

domestic difficulty
in your son's home.

At that time, he came
to live with you.

You claim
that during that time,

you made a loan to him
for an attorney.

-Correct.
-[Judy] And also extended

another loan for him for a car.

-Correct.
-[Judy] Your son and his wife

ultimately reconciled.

And you claim he stopped
paying on the initial loan

for an attorney and the car
all together.

Correct.

[Judy] You also claim
that at some point,

your daughter-in-law filed
a restraining order against you?

-[Dawn] Correct.
-[Judy] A restraining order

that the allegations were false,

and she didn't show up
at the hearing,

and that was dismissed.

-Correct.
-[Judy] Okay.

So I'm gonna start with you,
Mr. Gilbert.

When were you
and your wife married?

We got married,
uh, November 4th of 2019.

And you have children
together?

-Yes, ma'am.
-Two?

-Yup.
-[Judy] How old are they?

My oldest son is four.

Uh, little girl
that just turned one.

So, I gather
that you and your wife

were in a relationship
well before you married,

if you have a four-year-old?

How long have you been
living together?

Uh, we've been living together
for about six years now.

Have you been living
together independently,

on your own,
in your own home?

Yes.

[Judy] In what month and year
did you and your wife separate?

Um, as far as
after we were married,

we separated January of 2021.

When you and your wife
separated, where did you go?

I went to stay with my mother
for a brief period

until I was able to find
something in town.

Give me the date that you went
to live with your mother.

It would have been
the first week of February.

How long did you stay there?

I was there
probably about four days.

-[Judy] Four days.
-Yes, ma'am.

While you were
with your mother,

and I assume that the separation
with your wife

was not an amicable one.

Correct.

You had two children.
Were you seeing your children?

When I first separated, yes.

Thereafter,
about two months, no.

-[Judy] Why?
-There was a restraining order

that was put against me
from my wife.

[Judy]
So, for the first two months,

everything was okay,
and you saw your children?

Yep.

[Judy] Not "yep".
"Yep" is not an answer.

-"Yes" is an answer.
-Yes.

And what did your wife
allege in the restraining order?

That I was stalking her.

-[Judy] Were you?
-No.

Did she withdraw
the restraining order?

-Yes.
-How much after she filed it?

I had to actually get a lawyer

in order to get
the restraining order removed.

You went to a hearing?

Yes.

And was the restraining order
denied?

-[Nathan] Yes.
-So, the lawyer was helpful?

-Yes.
-[Judy] Did your mother

-give you money for the lawyer?
-Yes.

[Judy] Now, at that time,
you were living on your own?

Correct.

So, you had to have gone
to your mother

and let her know that you had
this restraining order in place?

Yes.

Do you remember
on what date you were served

with a restraining order?

Uh, the second week of February.

[Judy] I'm confused.
You said you separated,

and you went to live
with your mother

around the first week
in February.

Yep.

-[Judy] "Yep" is not an answer.
-Yes.

And I asked you about
visitation after you separated,

and you said the first two months
were okay.

That would be
February and March?

Correct.

But you just said
you were served

with the restraining order
the second week in February.

Correct.

[Judy] Well, did the restraining
order stop visitation?

No.

Okay, so the restraining order,

you continued
to see the children?

-[Nathan] Yes.
-[Judy] Until what date?

Would have been
end of February.

Well, that's just
a couple of weeks.

-[Nathan] Yes.
-[Judy] So, you were mistaken?

-Yes.
-Did you have a hearing

at the end of February?

-No.
-Well, you're gonna have to

explain that to me, Mr. Gilbert.

If she filed
a restraining order

the second week in February...

Is that when you filed it?

-Yes, ma'am.
-Yes.

And usually when you file
a restraining order,

you appear before a judge.

Did you appear before a judge?

Yes, ma'am.

[Judy] And did you ask that
your husband stay away from you?

Yes, ma'am.

[Judy] And the children?

No, ma'am.

-[Judy] Not the children?
-Not the children.

So, when the restraining
order was first issued,

it was just
staying away from you?

Yes, ma'am.

When did you change that
and request

that he stay away
from the children?

I did not request that he
stay away from the children, um,

because we have children
together.

It's not my,
our children's fault.

[Judy] Just-just a second.

Well, your husband says
that it became difficult for him

to see his children.

And I want to know
when that was

because I have to figure
this lawyer business out.

When and under what
circumstances

did it become difficult
for him to see his children?

It was the month of March.

Um, he and I were having
some disagreements and arguments

that was really frustrating me.

I was obviously a single mom
at that point in time.

And I just needed
some time away from him

and get the kids together

so that way the kids
cannot see Mom so upset.

So, I stopped
letting them see him

because it was upsetting me

with how much my son
was asking about his dad

and how much
he missed his-his dad.

And so eventually,

we just kind of came
to an agreement on things.

Well, you didn't come
to an agreement on things.

Mr. Gilbert, did you agree
not to see the children?

-No.
-[Judy] So, you must have asked

for a modification
of the restraining order?

It was dropped.

Well, was it dropped
in March?

Uh, it was dropped at the,

completely by the end
of February, I believe, totally.

Well, I want to know why it is
he wasn't seeing his chil...?

Did you agree
not to see your children?

No, I was trying to,

the way I was
seeing the children

was through her mother.

And after a period of time,

her mother was not
answering any questions

as far as when I would
be able to see them,

when I could pick them up,
so on and so forth.

So, that's when you decided
to retain an attorney?

-Yes.
-[Judy] In March?

-Yes.
-Now I'm getting the picture.

So, the two of you
weren't talking.

You were talking
through an intermediary.

The intermediary was her mother.

Correct.

[Judy] Her mother stopped
responding to your calls

to see the children,
which is when you...

-Retained the attorney.
-[Judy] ...retained an attorney.

So that's when
you went to your mother.

-[Nathan] Mm-hm.
-Because you didn't have money?

-[Nathan] Right.
-[Judy] And I'd like you

to tell me what the conversation
was with your mother.

I went to my mother,
I explained to her

as far as a retainer fee
was required...

No, tell me
what you said to her,

and what she said to you.

"I went to my mom's house,
and I told her..."

Tell me what you told her.

I told her
that I haven't been able

to see the babies,
and I need to get a lawyer

to get something going
so I can see my children.

And what did she say to you?

She said
that she could help me out.

But she didn't have
the full 1,500,

-in which case I...
-You told her

it was 1,500 doll...
the retainer was

-1,500 dollars?
-Correct. Yep.

[Judy] How much
did she say she had?

She did not have all of it.

Um, she could come up
with about 1,100,

in which case the rest
came out of my pocket.

Okay, so she handed you


Um, I gave her the cash.

And then we went down
to the lawyer my next day off

to get the ball rolling.

You mean, you gave your mother


Correct.

[Judy] And she wrote a check
to the lawyer?

Uh, uh, debit card, yes.

-[Judy] Mrs. Gilbert?
-Yes.

[Judy] Is it correct
that he put in 400,

you put in 1,100?

[Dawn] Yes, it was actually


And I just paid it
on my debit card,

the total 1,500.

Okay, but he gave you 458?

Correct. I'm sorry, it was 468. I'm sorry.

Okay. So, let's finish off
this attorney piece

before we get to the car piece.

[theme music]

You know,
controlling children,

which is clearly something
that happened with your husband,

made it difficult
to see his children.

So, that means you're using
the children as a control,

which is really
not supposed to happen

if you're a loving parent.

[theme music]

[narrator]
Dawn Gilbert claims her son

Nathan Gilbert
and his wife Hanna Gilbert

owes her for unpaid loans
and car insurance.

Now, the attorney
appeared with you in court?

We never went to court.

I had ended up canceling
the whole divorce thing

due to the fact that

me and my wife
had come to terms.

Everything was okay.

[Judy] And that was in

-March or April?
-It was in March, yes.

Mrs. Gilbert,
did the attorney return

any part of the retainer to you?

Yes, she did.

How much did she return?

It was $372.50.

Six sixty-one. 661. Yeah.

Minus this portion, yeah.

[Judy] Okay.

Did your mother
discuss the return

of the 661 dollars to her?

-[Nathan] No.
-Did you ever give her

any money towards
the 1,100 dollars?

I was waiting
to give her money

after the attorney
had contacted me

as far as what was
returned to her,

in which case I had made
weekly payments thereafter.

You made weekly payments?

-[Nathan] Yes.
-To your mother?

-Yes. One was 200.
-[Judy] Okay.

And then there were


over the next three weeks.

So, you returned


[Nathan] The first week, yes.

[Judy] And then?

A hundred dollars a week, weekly.

[Judy] For how many weeks?

[Nathan] Three weeks.

So you still owe her 161 dollars?

Is that where we're at?

-Yes.
-[Judy] Okay.

Mrs. Gilbert,
did your son return to you

two hundred dollars the first week,
acknowledging the loan?

No, ma'am.

-[Judy] He did not?
-No, ma'am.

I never received
a 200-dollar payment.

[Judy] How much did you receive
in payments from him?

Um, I received a total
of 300 dollars.

One on the May 15th,
May 29th,

and May 8th of a hundred dollars each.

Do you have,
Mr. Gilbert, any proof

that you gave your mother
a 200-dollar payment

towards the attorney's fees?

No, I don't have
the proof for the 200.

I do have the proof for the,
uh, 200 thereafter.

[Judy] For 300?
She said you made 300.

-Yes, I...
-[Judy] Okay.

...cleaned out the truck and...

Okey-dokey.
So, we have 361.

Now let's talk about the car.

When you and your wife
separated, did you need a car?

Uh, I received
this car in 2018.

Okay. Explain to me
the circumstances

surrounding the car.

[Nathan] As far as
the circumstances, uh,

there was an issue with
my sister's vehicle that her,

my sister's vehicle
no longer ran.

My mother approached me
as to if I wanted the vehicle,

or if I was just
going to keep the vehicle

that I had already bought
from her boyfriend.

-[Judy] Okay.
-And my sister

was going to get
the new vehicle.

Okay, so this was a sort of
an inter-family swap.

And what arrangement did
you make with regard to the car?

Did you get a new car?

Yes, I told my mother

that I'd just paid off a tool bill,

that I was able to give her


And I felt that that would be
the best option

as opposed to my sister
not working at all,

not being able to guarantee my mother
any money whatsoever?

[Judy]
Okay, so you wanted a new car?

-[Nathan] Yes.
-You wanted a new car.

What kind of car did you get?

It was a 2011 Ford Edge.

[Judy] Do you remember
what you paid for it?

Um, the total price
was 4,200 dollars.

[Judy] Okay.
Do you have the bill of sale?

No, I do not.

-Do you?
-[Dawn] Yes, ma'am.

[Judy] I'd like to see it, please.

Thank you.

[sighs]

Right now, you got a new car
for 4,509.

And that's in 2018.

-[Nathan] Correct.
-Sarah, take a look and see

if you can find
a 2011 Ford Edge.

It ranges from


-Today?
-[Sarah] Yes.

In today's use.

-So, that's probably right on.
-Yep.

Okay. And how much of this 4,509
did you pay back?

I paid back a total of 3,250.

Is that correct?

No, ma'am.

You have receipts
for these payments?

I have the last two receipts
of when they were paid off.

That is all.

At the time, me and my mother
were on good terms.

I just handed her cash
on Saturdays

that my wife would actually
take the children up

-to see my mother on Saturdays.
-Every Saturday.

That's what we did.

I was working,
so I wanted to make sure

my mother was still
seeing the grandchildren.

You mean this is when
you and your wife were together?

-Yes.
-[Judy] Okay.

How much is it, Mrs. Gilbert,

that you allege
that your son paid on the car?

He paid 1,090 dollars total.

And he says he paid


[Dawn] That is incorrect.

I told him, um,
approximately three weeks ago

that he still owed 3,420.

And he did agree
to that via text.

I'd like to see that.

Are you counting in the money
that you paid, Mr. Gilbert,

because you were paying
for not only the car,

but the insurance?

As far as the insurance,

the insurance was something
that was never agreed upon.

She told me that she was
going to have her name

on the registration;

that way she was able to
insure the vehicle.

[Judy] Just a second.

Mr. Gilbert, so I asked you
a simple question.

What you didn't give me
was a simple answer.

There's the 3,250

that you claim that you paid
your mother.

Did you pay a separate
insurance policy on the car

that you and your wife
were driving?

-No.
-[Judy] So I am correct

that this 3,250

encompasses both insurance
and the car payment?

No, it was just
the car payment.

Well, who paid
for the insurance?

-[Nathan] My mother.
-I did, ma'am.

Ah, that's ridiculous,
Mr. Gilbert.

That's what I tried
to explain to her.

[Judy] What do you mean,
you tried to

-explain that to her?
-I tried to explain to my mother

that I did not need her
to carry the insurance,

that I had other vehicles

and it would have been
cheaper for me

to insure it with
my other vehicles.

But she insisted on having
the insurance and...

Just a second.
Is the car in your name?

It's in both of our names,
my mother and I.

[Judy] Well, maybe
it was to ensure

that there was
current insurance.

What other vehicles do you have?

I currently have a 1998 BMW,

and my wife has
a 2013 Toyota Corolla.

You pay insurance
on those cars with what company?

-Through, uh, Nationwide.
-[Judy] Amount?

The total after dropping the
BMW because that no longer runs,

-we pay 363.
-[Judy] Just a second.

So, you currently only have
a 2013 car and this car.

-Yes.
-That was purchased in 2018?

-Correct.
-[Judy] And now,

on the one car that you have,

you paid 300 and...
how much?

How much did he say he paid on
the one car that he has insured?

It's 300 and something.

[Nathan] It was for
the Toyota and a BMW.

Just a...no, you said
you dropped the BMW.

What you said was,
"We dropped the BMW

because it's no longer running."

-Is that what he said?
-That's what he said.

-He said he paid...
-And he said...

So the insurance is now...?

Three sixty-three.

Yes, because there is
a loan on the vehicle,

and it has to have
full coverage.

It's my vehicle, ma'am.

I-I, uh, I carry high because
I'm considered a liable driver,

being young, with a loan.

So my insurance
is very expensive.

So, why would it
have been cheaper?

-[Nathan] With the...
-Mr. Gilbert?

With the multi-car discount.

Oh, you're ridiculous.

[theme music]

At the time that you said
those very ugly things

about your wife,

you wanted your mother
to believe you.

Yes.

All she knows is
you've told her

some very angry and ugly things
about your wife,

with whom you are now together.

You can't do anything
about that, Mrs. Gilbert.

[theme music]

[narrator] Dawn Gilbert
is accusing her son

Nathan Gilbert
and his wife Hanna Gilbert

of refusing to pay
for a car loan

and the insurance payments.

So now,
pretty steep breakdown

of a relationship between
a mother and a son very quickly

over a four-week period.

Mr. Gilbert, how do you think
that happened?

-Due to the fact of me...
-[Dawn sobs]

getting back with my wife.

[clears throat] My mother
does not care for my wife.

Um, after I told her
that I was moving back home,

she told me that her house

was no longer
a storage facility,

that I needed to come
pick up my stuff,

otherwise it would be
sitting outside.

So, that should be
a good lesson for your mother

and for everybody else
out there that, you know,

until things
sort of calm down

with somebody else's relationship,
a marriage,

it's a very good idea
to keep your nose out of it.

You know, the problem
with you and your mother is,

you had a close relationship
with your mother.

Yes.

And I'm certain
that at the time

that you and your wife separated,

you unburdened yourself

-to your mother.
-[Nathan] Yes.

And when you unburdened
yourself to your mother,

without getting into
the specifics of it,

you said some very ugly things
about your wife.

-Uh-huh. Yes.
-"Uh-huh" is not an answer.

Yes.

[Judy] And at the time
that you said

those very ugly things
about your wife,

you wanted your mother
to believe you?

Yes.

Because at the time you said
those very ugly things

about your wife,
you believed them?

-Yes.
-[Judy] See what happens? See?

Your mother doesn't have all
the same elements that you do.

She loves you.
She clearly loves her grandson.

All she knows is you told her
some very angry and ugly things

about your wife,
with whom you are now together.

-Yes.
-You can't do anything

about that, Mrs. Gilbert.

-That's it.
-Right.

-That's it.
-I understand that.

You got it.
Can't do anything about that.

It's his choice.

But if you're a smart lady...

[Dawn] Thank you. [sniffles]

If you're a smart lady,

-[Dawn] Thank you.
-and if your son is smart,

he'll recognize
he has one mother.

But the divorce rate
in this country

is better than 50-50.

So, chances are that you got
a 50 percent shot.

Right.

-You only have one mother.
-Mm-hm.

And she's a mother who's
actually pretty good to you.

For the most part, yes.

Who clearly adores her grandson,

who I don't know
if she sees anymore.

No, ma'am.

All I'm telling you both is that
that's being unfair to him.

I understand.

[Judy] You know,
controlling children,

which is clearly something
that happened

at least for a short time
with your husband,

you controlled the children
because it was clear

that if he couldn't see
the children with you,

and your mother made it difficult
to see his children,

so that means you're using
the children as a control,

which is really not
supposed to happen

if you're a loving parent.

I control their influences.

[Judy] No, what is supposed
to happen is,

if you're a loving parent,

you want the widest possible
community of a village

who love them
to be part of them

so that they can feel as if
they have a safety net,

that they grow up with
as many safety nets of love

in their life as possible.

So, if you and your husband
are off for an evening,

you're going to a casino
and your car gets blindsided

and T-boned,
and both of you are gone,

that there's a safety net
for them.

You don't want to
take that away. It's unfair.

In any event,
I don't want to hear about

this protective order actually,
Mrs. Gilbert.

You survived it.

Did you hire a lawyer
for the protective order?

No, ma'am.

-I just wrote down and...
-Oh. All right.

So, he owes you 3,250,

which he actually sort of acknowledges
for the car,

and 361 for the lawyer,
which is 3,611.

Mr. Gilbert, Mrs. Gilbert,
marriages go through rocks.

up and down and up and down.

You have a child,
your child loves you.

Clearly, your child
had a relationship

with his grandmother.

-Right?
-Yes.

You really should find
a way of making sure

that that relationship continues,

and try to put a period,
just as you put a period

with the anger that you felt
towards your wife.

-Yes.
-[Judy] Right?

-Right.
-You put a period.

Yes.

I would try to do the same
with my mother.

Judgment for the plaintiff.
We're finished. Thank you.

[Kevin] Court is adjourned.

[theme music]

Uh, it was fair

as far as the amount
that was owed.

I did not want to pay her
what she was asking for.

I'm glad that it's over with,

and I hope everything
gets taken care of.

I find it to be petty.

I tried to get this settled out of court.

She refused to work
any kind of deal out.

And here we are.

Being told I was being petty

for wanting to be paid back.

I have no idea.
The fact that me reconci...

getting back with my wife.
I have no idea.

That is true.

But it's not my marriage,
it's theirs.

Um, they started off
with a great relationship

when me and my wife first got
together, when we were dating,

and it seems to tinker downhill.

I hope our relationship
can be put back together,

I really do.

Uh, if she can be
cordial about it,

and not throw rocks,

show up at my work
threatening me...

I just went and asked him
if we could talk like adults.

...then there's a possibility, yes.

I'm glad it's over.

As someone
who was fortunate enough

to grow up with
many safety nets,

I think that was
a great lesson in there

to both the defendants that
taking away a child's safety net

because of some sort of
ill will or harbored resentment

against a parent
is just unfortunate,

legal issue or not.

So, I thought
that was a great lesson.

I always feel sorry
for grandparents

who love their children,

and then get themselves
involved with a breakup,

which happens frequently,
take sides right away

before the situation has
sort of calmed itself down

and you see in what direction it's going.

Maybe he'll listen.
You know, I didn't know,

but I'm sure he said a lot of
nasty things about his wife

when he went to live
with his mother.

She saw how hurt he was.

She developed her own
resentments that spilled over.

But, you know,
you gotta love your children.

More than
you hate each other.

-[Judy] Right.
-[chuckles]

Very good.

[theme music]

[narrator] Are you having
a family dispute?



[theme music]