01x04 - Chapter 4

[bunniefuu]

[Jay-Z]
So, around The Black Album,

I was creating
The Black Album,

and my mother comes to me
out of nowhere...

and she says, "You gotta
meet up with your dad."

And I'm like, "What?

"I'm like,


Don't need a dad.
I'm good. We good."

She's like, "No, you gotta
meet up with your dad."

'Cause I trust my mom so much.

I was like,
"He's not gonna show up."

I became a boy.
I was a little child again,



Like, all those feelings
came back up and I was like,

"I don't wanna do that.
He's not gonna show up.

"You know he's not
gonna show up.

I don't wanna do that."
She was persistent.

"Yes, you have to do this."

I'm like, it's my mom,
I love her, you know.

-Yeah.
-I'd do anything for her.

-Yeah.
-I'm like, okay, fine.

She's doing it for me, but I'm--
I'm justifying it doing--

like I was doing it for her.
And...

he doesn't show up
the first time.

-Destroyed, like...
-Yeah.

Like, "I knew it. I told you."

All those feelings come back,
flush, emotion.

-Wow.
-All those emotion, everything.

Like, all to the surface.

Things I ain't know.
Like, in pain.

Pain.

Cool.

Say, call it a week later,
she comes back.

"Gotta meet your dad."

And I'm like,
"Why are you doing this to me?

"Like, why are you doing this?

-Like... like, no."
-Yeah.

She's like, "No, no, no, no, no.
You have to do it," da-da-da.

I don't know. Some reason,

I tell her, okay.

-Yeah, it's your mom.
-"Fine, let's do it again."

Do it again.

He shows up.

When he shows up...

we start talking
and I'm asking him immediately,

like, I'm asking
all the questions,

everything that I wanted
to know growing up.

"Why-- Why? Why didn't--
How could you do that?

"Like, I'm your child,
I look just like you.

Like, how-- you right down
the block. Like, how do you--"

"You could come see me,"
and he started being defensive.

And the first 30 minutes,
super defensive.

He's like,
"You could come see me."

And I was like, "I'm a child.

"I'm a child, it's not
my responsibility

"to come see you.
How I'm gonna get to you?

"Like, what do you mean
I could come see you?

Like, what? I'm a kid."

And I guess the realness
of what I was saying...

-Yeah.
-...like, broke through
somewhere.

We just talked.

And he was like, "You're right."

And, like, we just start
really speaking.

And it just like, for me,
it was that day.

Everything, it felt like
everything dropped.

Like, it was if
you had, like, chains,

like, all over your body

and they just all drop
to the floor

-like clank, clank, cl-- like...
-Wow.

And I just felt lighter.

And immediately, like,
after that, the next week

I was finding him
a place to live.

You know, one of my ways I know
I can take care of you.
[chuckles]

-Yeah.
-You know, and...

he was sick.

Now, I know why my mom
was so persistent.

You know, he had drank so much,

he had done a lot of damage
to his liver.

His eyes was, like, yellow.

And they tell him, like,
"Either you stop drinking

or you're gonna k*ll yourself."

So, I'm trying to get him
away from an environment

that where he's drinking,
I've got him his-- an apartment.

And I'm, like,
ordering living room furniture

and all that,
and then my sister,

Annie, who's close to me,
my sister,

she like one year older,

she was taking care of-- of that

and I was recording
and moving around.

And then, um,
he-- he didn't stop drinking,

and one day
she goes there to-- to...

meet some furniture,
and she finds him,

which makes me so sad for her.

I'm sad for myself,
and I'm so sad for her

that she had to--
she was there...

-Physically in the presence.
-Physically.

-Yeah.
-And...

-and maybe a month later...
-Yeah.

-It wasn't even that long
after we had met.
-Yeah.

Like maybe a month.
Maybe a month.

Definitely not two months.

How many times
did you get to talk to him?

There was the one--
that first time,

but how many times in person
in that period of time?

One time.

-That was it?
-One time.

The first time and then
another time, or that was it?

One time.

-That's it?
-That's it.

-One time?
-This happened
like a month later.

So, you have this connection...

-Yeah.
-...the chains come off...

-Yes.
-...and a month later he's gone.

Gone.

And I know had I not spoken
to him, oh, forget it.

-For sure.
-I don't know what happens.

I don't know where to--
I don't know where...

I-- I don't know where I go,
you know?

And those chains are still on

-if that didn't--
-Oh, 100%.

-Yeah.
-100%, and that's why

it was so important for my mom.

-Yeah.
-And she knew he was sick,

and she knew that had he passed
without a conversation,

that I would never recover.

It'd be some part of you that
would remain

-closed off.
-Yeah.

-That's wild.
-And then, you know,
that changed everything for me.

-The beginning
of changing everything.
-Yes.

-Again, like I said,
it opened me up...
-Yes. Yes.

...but I still didn't have
the tools to know how to do it.

-And I'm still learning,
you know?
-Yeah.

Just so you know,
it's lifelong for all of us.

That's right. That's right.

-We're always--
-But yeah.

-Always making improvements.
-Yeah, but, um,

definitely wouldn't have been
able to begin that journey...

-Yeah.
-...had that moment not happen.

No way.

No way.
You know how you always say,

"No, it would have came
in another form."

No.

There was such
a heavy burden on me

that that-- it took for us...

to have the conversation to have
that kind of forgiveness.

This was his life,
and these are the circumstances

that created who he was.

Wasn't a-- Wasn't a bad guy.

Wasn't a good guy.

-Just a guy...
-Yeah.

...living his life,
doing his best.

-Yeah.
-And at that time,

remember, that's early '70s,
everyone was leaving.

There was an exodus
from the home...

-Yeah.
-...for Black men.

You know, the-- the world
was beating us the f*ck down.

We were going to jail.

We was leaving the home,
on drugs heavy.

And he was all those things.

His brother died
when I was nine.

Oh, that makes sense.
Two years later...

their-- their divorce happened.

Got it.

One of the pivotal moments
for my mom and dad

was she didn't know how to...

relate to him
when his brother died,

or-- or how to...

-I understand.
-...how to embrace him...

-Yes.
-...and, like, love him up.

-Yes.
-He was in a bad place,

and she meant well.
But again...

-Yes.
-...she didn't have the tools.

-Understood.
-So, my dad would do this thing

where the--
my dad's brother k*ller

was still on the streets.

You know, police ain't arrest
people in these neighborhoods.

They're like,
these guys k*ll somebody

and just still be out there.

So, my dad--
someone would call the house

for my dad,
"We just seen such and such."

My dad would run,
go in his sock drawer,

grab a little .32,

and go outside
looking for this guy.

And my mom is like,
"What are you doing?

There's-- there's four kids
in here."

So, what she wanted
to say to him was...

"We love you. We need you.

"We can't lose you, too.

I know you're in pain, like,
but we need you."

-Yes.
-"We want you."

So, she said, "You can't keep
leaving this house like that.

You got kids in here."

Think about that.
"My brother just died."

It doesn't sound
like s-sympathy.

It doesn't sound like love.
It sounds like an ultimatum.

It sounds like
it's against-ness.

-You know what I mean?
-Yeah.

-So, I think--
-She didn't see him.

She didn't see him,
she didn't see his pain.

-That's his interpretation.
-Right.

And that she wasn't putting up
with what he was dealing with.

[Jay-Z] Exactly.

W-When it really was coming
from a place of love.

-Yeah.
-She just was afraid,

and lose her husband,
the father of her kids.

That was a major fracture.

So, he's like, "You want me
to choose you over my brother?

Like, my baby brother
who I was supposed to protect?"

-Yeah, yeah. Yes.
-So, their communication
just got...

really tangled up in all
of these feelings and emotions,

and not knowing how to properly
show concern

-for one another.
-Yeah.

It paints
a way different picture

-than the one...
-Absolutely.

...that I had of him
for all these years.

Again, it's life.

It's what we had to go through.

How we relate to it...

determines your health
as a human being.

You know, you can shut it down

and bury the emotions
inside of you

and act like it doesn't exist.

That's a-- That's a current
theme in my family.

Like, we'll have, like,
real problems,

and just no one talk about it.

It's just like everybody's
just walking around.

Like, it's like, we're not
gonna talk about this thing

-that just happened?
-Yeah.

-Everybody's just...
-The elephant in the room.

Yeah, like,
everybody just moving?

-Like, let's talk about this.
-Yeah.

And I think a lot
through my healing, you know,

I'm able to mentor
with my mom especially,

because we're super tight
and we're always talking

about these sort of things.
We talk like this...

-Yeah, yes.
-...like you and I are talking,
all the time.

-Yes.
-So, through my healing,

able to mentor the family
through this process

of, like, dealing with the--
dealing with our emotions

and what's occurred in our life.

And it's beautiful to see.

It's amazing.

It's beautiful to see that,
like, oh, this thing

affected these... [chuckles]

-Yeah.
-...these things,
you know, and...

millions of people
that I'll never meet.

It expands further
and further out.

You know, maybe a million people
listen to 4:44.

-[♪ "Where Have You Been" plays]
-Oh, man. Right on time.

[both laughing]

This, I was angry.
I love this song.

But Beanie's verse
was just so pain--

Beanie's verse
on this was like...

♪ Hey, hey, Dad ♪

Just, like, oof.

-Ugh.
-♪ Yeah, it's your boy ♪

-♪ Ha, remember me? ♪
-"Remember me."

♪ I wanna talk to you, scrap ♪

And then, "I wanna
talk to you, scrap."

♪ Daddy, where have you been ♪

♪ And when you come home,
you got us here all alone ♪

♪ Mommy,
where Daddy went ♪

♪ You always stick up
for him, always said ♪

-♪ You make up for him ♪
-[♪ music stops]

So, that was before
you reconnected with your dad?

-[both laughing]
-Yeah.

This is definitely pre--
definitely pre that meeting.

-Yeah.
-Yeah.

Man, you know...

this is just such a gift...

you know, just to be able
to create music

and, like-- like from
real emotions

and real healing in real time.

Like I listen to Beans
and how beautiful...

I mean, difficult...

-Yes.
-...but how beautiful
his verse is,

and how-- how clearly
he's able to articulate...

what's going on with him.

-Yes.
-You know, "He never
taught me how to box."

Like, these are
the basic things.

-Yes.
-Newz is his younger brother.

"I gotta teach Newz the block.
Gotta teach Newz to block."

We used to think
money was white.

So, they had these government
assisted programs in the hood,

and they had welfare.

So, it had, like,
a book of food stamps.

You had like these coupons
that you had to rip out.

-Emulating money.
-Mm-hmm.

It was like a dollar,
but it was food stamps.

-Mm-hmm.
-And you would have
to go to the store,

and-- and every--
you were so embarrassed.

-We all were poor.
-Yes.

-But in-- in our mind...
-Yes.

...we can't be so poor that
we're on government assistance.

-Yes.
-You know,
everyone had food stamps,

but you-- for some reason
you hiding it.

And even while he's saying
his verse, he's like,

"This is embarrassing."

Like, "I used to think money
was white,"

because that's what he had to go

and take the food stamps
to the store to buy food.

You know, you couldn't buy
certain things with it.

It was only for food.
You couldn't buy snacks,

or you couldn't buy, like...

cigarettes, or you--

It was specifically
earmarked for food.

Uh, and it was like a major...

source of a lot--
a lot of our embarrassment.

You know, my mother
would k*ll herself

for us not be on food stamps.

I remember we had food stamps
maybe three times.

-Mm-hmm.
-I don't know how she got 'em.

Maybe she even bought them,
but she was--

-she refused to go on welfare.
-Mm-hmm.

It was something about--
again, I know that feeling

when he says,
"sh*t's embarrassing.

We used to think
money was white."

That's like... wow.

It's such a powerful thing,
music, man.

I'm so grateful in this moment,

like, as we talking about
all these things,

and just to talk about some
of the things we talking about,

-and then you hear it.
-Yeah.

Says here, he's like,
"You turned me into a cold man

"with one goal and one plan.

"Get Mommy out of some jam.

"She was always in one.

Always short with the income,
always late with the rent."

Like, it was like--
so that became my drive.

Like, how do I get my mom--
how do I help out around here?

And basically, I was the father
of the house since I was 16.

-[whispering] Yeah.
-Not my older brother.

-Yes. Yes.
-Not my older sister, not no--

Me. Me.

-Yeah.
-I was the man of the house.

"I wanted to walk like you,
I wanted to talk like you."

No, my dad was cool.

-Like, super cool.
-Yeah.

They called him AJ.

Yeah. [chuckles]

-You know what I mean, like he--
-Yeah.

Like he played basketball,
like, dressed really well,

-and just was my superhero.
-Yeah.

Just hearing that,
I hear it different today.

Today I'm grateful
for this song.

Do you remember
the recording of this?

Do you remember what was like--
Did you come into the studio

-and do you hear the track?
-This is The Dynasty album.

We were pretty much all together
in and out the studios.

I don't know if I was there
when he recorded his verse,

'cause that would happen
a lot too.

-Yeah.
-Like, I'll record a verse

or somebody would record a verse
and then you come in

during your time,
and we had different times.

Like I'll-- my time in Baseline
was like two-- afternoon.

I would come early,


I wouldn't miss 2:00 or 3:00.

You can-- you can set
your clock by it.



And then I was gone by...

-9:00, 10:00.
-You never did that?

You never
did the overnight hours?

Very rarely.

If I get an idea
that I can't let go...

-Mm.
-...I'll go till
the next morning.

-But it's not a regular thing?
-It's not normal for me.

Then you'll come back
and Guru just be like...

-You know, he's excited
like a kid, like...
-Yeah.

And, you know, you sitting
in the back of the studio

and he would just
play it and he'd, like,
look at you like, you know.

I feel like--
I feel like that was--

-That happened a lot
during those times.
-Yeah.

'Cause they'd record
in the middle of the night.

-Yeah.
-Then I'll come in
in the morning,

he'll play the verse.

But do you remember
if you heard the verse

and that inspired you to...

-I think because he goes first--
-Like, subject-matter-wise?

-I think he goes first
on this song.
-Yes.

-He must have-- He must
have went first.
-Yeah.

'Cause we wouldn't have
move the verses.

-We-- we rarely did that.
-Yeah.

-We rarely moved
the verse around.
-That was another question

I was gonna ask.
Did you ever record a vocal

and then change the music
underneath it?

-All the time.
-Really?

Yeah, Song Cry
was a whole different song.

-Kept the soul
of what you rap to.
-Yeah. Yeah.

But then, it just be
a whole different thing.

[♪ "Allure" begins playing]

-[♪ music stops abruptly]
-Tell me the words.

"The allure of breaking the law
was always too much

"for me to ever ignore.

"I got a thing for them
big-body Benzes,

"it dulls my senses.

"In love with a V-Dub engine.
Man, I'm high off life.

"f*ck it, I'm wasted.
Bathing Ape kicks,

Audemars Piguet--"
you-- you mentioning

all the trinkets--
"Audemars Piguet wrist.

"Women friends
get tennis bracelets,

"trip to Venice, get their
winters replaced with the sun.

"It ain't even fun no more,
I'm jaded.

Man, it's just a game,
I just play it to--"

It ain't even fun--
"I just play it to play it.

"I put my feet in the footprints
left to me.

Without saying a word--"
You just do it--

"the ghetto's got
a mental telepathy.

"Man, my brother hustled,
so naturally,

"up next is me,
and what perplexes me.

"sh*t, I know
how this movie ends,

and still I play the starring
role in 'Hovito's Way.'"

So, in Carlito's Way,
when he gets k*lled

by the train,
I've seen the movie.

-I know how this goes.
-Yes, you know how
the movie ends.

And the reason I said that,
'cause when Pharrell

was describing this beat...

he was like,
"Yo, this feels like the end

of Carlito's Way when he was,"
da-da-da-da.

So, he put that,
throw it in my mind.

-Yeah.
-"I'm like a Russian mobster

"drinking distilled vodka till
I'm under the field with Hoffa.

"It's real.
Peel the top up like a toupee,

"mix the water with the soda,
turn the pot up, make a souffle.

"All of y'all can get it
like group-page

on your two-way."
You know, you send it out...

-Yep.
-...and everybody got it.

"I'm living proof
that crime do pay.

"So, say hooray to the bad guy

and all the broads
putting cars in their names."

You know, you get someone
to sign for you to--

as a way to, like,
it's not your car,

so the government can't take it.

"Putting 'caine in their bras

and their tomorrows
on the train."

"Putting their tomorrows
on the train."

-"All in the name of love."
-Yes.

-It's not really love.
-No.

Right? But all in the name,
you doing it

-'cause you love this person.
-Yeah.

"All in the name of love,

"just to see that love
locked in chains.

-Yeah.
-"And then the family came

over the house to take back
everything that they claimed."

That was a big thing, like,
you know,

the sister don't like you,
the mother, so the--

-when the son gets locked up,
what do you think's hap--
-They take everything.

The mo-- the mother's
coming for that house.

That condo y'all was staying in,
all those chains that you bought

and the fur coats and all that,
that's coming back.

The family's coming in,
they're mourning.

-[whispering] Yeah.
-"Or even the worse pain..."

That's not even the worst of it.

"...is the distress,
learning you're the mistress

only after that love
gets slain." You know?

-Yeah.
-Again, compartmentalizing,

you know, a lot of-- a lot of
guys in the life was living...

-Yeah, multiple lives.
-Multiple lives.

And you didn't find out
until he got k*lled.

And it was like,
here's this family

with all these children,
and you come over and, like,

"Wait, I thought I was the wife.
I'm the mistress."

"And the anger and the sorrow
mixed up,

"it leads to mistrust.

"Now it gets tough
to ever love again.

"But the allure of the game
keeps calling your name.

"To all the Lauras in the world,
I feel your pain.

"To all the Christies
in every cities

"and Tiffany Lanes,
we all hustlers

in love with the same thing,
it's just the life."

It st-- it starts off...

-all rosy. [chuckles]
-Yeah.

As it always does.

And what's also interesting
about this one,

the music makes it feel

-like it's all good.
-Yeah.

[singing melody]

That's the allure.
It pulls you in.

It's the candy of it, right?
It's the drug that pull you in.

-You don't know.
-Yeah.

-I didn't know this going in.
-No.

I went to say,
"He has a nice car.
I want a nice car."

[humming melody]
"I'm in love with
these big-body Benzes.

It dulls my-- it dulls
my senses."

-Ah.
-"In love with a V-dub engine.

Aw, I'm high off life."
Blissful.

Ignorance.
It's blissful ignorance.

-Yes.
-"f*ck it, I'm wasted."

-Yes.
-I don't even care.

-Yes, I'm high off life.
-Yes, you're drunk on the game.

-Drunk on the game.
-Yeah.

And only the person
that been through this

and really been close enough
can write it like that.

-Yes.
-And that was the thing.

Like, who would know
about that small detail

of like, "Yeah, we found out
at the funeral

that I wasn't the wife."
I've seen it. Seen it.

You can't even mourn properly

because you dis--
someone you love is dead.

But then you have to deal
with the fact of the betrayal.

-None of which you knew about.
-Exactly.

♪ Oh no ♪

"Never felt more alive
than riding shotgun."

So, we had a situation
in Cambridge

where we had to leave fast.

Some New York guys
came down to Cambridge

and I was the only one
knew how to get out of there.

So, we trying to leave,
and there was one highway.

It's called-- it was Highway 50.

You took 50 and then...
[mumbling] ...to get to 95 North

going back home.

It's after a party,
so it's 1:00,


so it's really dark.

You know, there's no lights
in those smaller towns.

There's no streetlights,
it's just dark.

And we're riding and I'm like--
it's the new 535,

beautiful car
that only the doctors had.

-Yeah.
-You couldn't have this car.

-It cost too much.
-Yes.

With this crazy system in it

and beautiful thing,
and beautiful rims.

And we're trying to escape,
it's me and him,

we're riding, we're talking.

And then, I look at him
and I see him go...

Look in the rear-view mirror.

And I look at him,
going around.

And in the back, I just--
coming up the horizon...

I just see, like, almost like--
like the moon was rising.

It was just--
you just see lights.

Police, all of 'em
blinking light--

It was-- It was the light
they were giving up

before they came over a hill.

-I see.
-So you-- I seen
the lights first.

-Like a glow.
-The glow, and then

you just see lights-- whoo--
they're coming.

And they pull us over.

And I'm thinking,
we're gonna die for sure.

They're over the guardrails
and it's like g*ns drawn

and we, like, get out the car,

put our hands up, get arrested.

But that feeling,
the adrenaline,

you know, like, the--
this could go either way.

It's like drugs.

It's the reason
people take drugs.

-Yeah.
-Right? They try-- You try

to get back to that feeling,
that first high.

-You always chasing that.
-Yeah.

"And you can treat your nose--"
when people use cocaine--

"and you can treat your nose,
you still won't come close.

"And I'm just a moth
addicted to the floss.

When the doors lift
from the floor."

-You know the foreigns
that come up.
-Yeah.

"When the doors lift from
the floor and the tops come off,

"by any means necessary,
whatever the cost,

even if it means lives is lost."

Not just physically.
You lose yourself in that thing.

"And I can't explain why.
I just love to get high.

"I drink life,
smoke the blueberry sky.

Blink twice,
I'm in the Blueberry Five."

Like, I've made it.
"Blink three times,

"I may not even be alive.

"James Dean couldn't escape
the allure of dying young,

leaving a good-looking corpse.
Of course."

And, you know,
it's a James Dean.

-Yeah. Yeah.
-Kurt Cobain.

-It's a rock and roll
lifestyle that--
-Yes.

Anything that has that allure
and that pull.

And you also didn't
write this over months.

No. I wrote that,
maybe 15 minutes,

-and also didn't write it.
-[both chuckle]

-So, you thought of this...
-Yeah.

-...in 15 minutes.
-Yeah.

And that's what
we're listening to.

Yes, went in the booth
that night,

heard the beat.

Pharrell calls me at dinner

'cause the original idea
for The Black Album

was every producer
have one-- one song.

-Yes.
-It was like,
get my favorite producers.

This is gonna be my last album.

Work with all
the greatest producers

that I always was fan of
and that I love,

and see you guys later.

And he already had a song.

So, this was him really--
Why he was pitching that

was 'cause
he already had a song.

-Mm.
-We did Change Clothes.

And he was trying
to get another song.

So, he was like,
"This song, I'm telling you."

And now, he's pitching me
the song on the phone.

-Yeah.
-Oh, it's like druggy,
it's like...

It feels blissful and,
you know.

It pulls you in.

That's the thinking.
I always listen to the music.

What is the music saying?

You know, that's a lot
of the beginnings,

like, what is this saying?

So you-- so it felt like
the music pulled you in.

-Mm-hmm.
-So, it's a song
about being pulled in.

Exactly.

Like what is it saying?

Oh, it's syrupy,
and it pulls you in,

and it's blissful.
Oh, there's some danger.

And then that chord change,
and it's like,

oh, it changes at some point.

It changes and it gets dark.
Okay.

And there it goes, you have--
I have the outlinings of...

what I can speak about.

I-Is it always in order?
Like when you write words...

the order that we hear them in

is the order
that they're written in?

-Yeah.
-Or sometimes you get
a line and think,

"Oh, I'm gonna use
that later in the song"?

No. Mostly I go,
and i-it's mostly linear.

Even if it's just freestyle,

there's some kind
of structure to it.

So, and when I go beginning,
middle, end, for me...

-Yes.
-...it works in that order.

Like-- like, I'll get stuck
on a line

and I won't finish the song
until I could get past
that line.

It more like I will just
stop there,

and then, you know, if I stop,
I'll stop in the place

and then say,
okay, that's it for now.

And then I'll come back later

and continue
from where I left off.

-Mm-hmm.
-I won't skip over that and go
to, like, the third verse.

Nah, I-- I wouldn't do that.

Anything else you remember
about recording this song,

or any other thoughts you had
when you were working on it?

That was it,
just-- just the fact

that, you know, it was that time
with The Black Album

and it felt like, you know,

whatever you wanna say,
say it now.

Whoo, he hit that right on time.

[♪ "Where I'm From" playing]

I like how you hit that,
"Where I'm from..."

[laughing]

-♪ Y-y-yeah ♪
-♪ Brooklyn ♪

♪ Uh-huh, unh ♪

♪ So where you from ♪

I remember as a songwriter,

just like, really being happy

with the-- the picture
painted here.

You know, it was like
little details,

like, "Where we call
the cops the A-Team

'cause they hop out of vans
and spray things."

You know, The A-Team
was big then with, like, Mr. T,

and they hopped out this blan--
black van.

"They hop out of vans
and spray things."

And, you know, the crooked cops
was just rampant.

They was just--
it was a wild time.

"Life expectancy so low,
we making out wills at 18."

And by the way,
I messed that line up

and just kept it,
it was just so raw.

'Cause I say,
"Making out wills at 18s."

Like, I put an "S" on,
like, the 18.

-Yeah.
-"We call the cops the A-Team

"'cause they hop out of vans
and spray things.

"And life expectancy so low,
we making out will at 18s.

[chuckles]
"And how we get rid of guys

"who step out of line,
your rep solidifies.

So tell me, when I rap,
you think I give a f*ck
who criticize?"

Like, I have bigger problems
to worry about,

-like real problems.
-Yeah.

"n*gg*s vanish every summer."

Like, the summer was real.

Summer, it was gonna be fights,
it's gonna be killings.

You getting locked up.

Summer, a whole neighborhood
could be gone.

"When the blue van would come,
we throw the work

in the can and run."

Like, get rid of the stuff
that could get you arrested.

"Where the plan was to get funds
and skate off the set."

Like, leave, like you know,
that was always the dream.

No one ever left, though.
"Where the plan was to get funds

"and skate off the set.
To achieve this goal quicker,

sold all my weight wet."

So, you-- you cook up
a piece of crack,

and it's still wet, you weigh it
on a scale, it obviously--

-It's heavier.
-It's heavier.

-Yeah.
-So, you sell it wet.

It's like, oh, it's seven.

They get home,
it dries as three,

and you've taken their money
for seven.

"Faced with immeasurable odds,
still I gave straight bets."

You know what I mean,
like no matter how crooked
the system was...

-Yeah.
-...or how people did me...

-Yeah.
-...I felt I'm owed something.

And you, who didn't play
the game correctly...

you nothing, check.

"I'm from where
the other side--"

We had two sides
of the projects,

and both of us called
each other the other side.

"I'm from the other side
where other guys

"don't walk too much,
and girls from the projects

wouldn't love us--"
I say "f*ck us--"

"love us 'cause
we talk too much.

So, they ran up to Tompkins."
Tompkins was like,

uh, five minutes away,
it was another project.

So, they-- "I'm done
with these Marcy guys."

They would go and start
dating guys from Tompkins.

-It was like...
-Yeah. It seemed exotic
'cause they were from

-somewhere else.
-It seemed exotic.
It's five minutes away.

-Right. Right.
-"I don't know what
the f*ck they thought."

-They just like us.
-Yeah.

[chuckles] "I'm from where
the beef is inevitable."

It's gonna happen.
It's just when.

"Summertime's unforgettable.

Boosters in abundance,
buy a half price--"

And it was beautiful times.

So, I wanted to inject
those feelings of, like,

I don't wanna sit here
and talk to you

as if every day
was the hardest day.

It was beauti--
ice cream man and the--

Johnny Pump would be out,
and, like, kids playing,

and it was like beautiful days
in the-- in the hood.

Gorgeous days, and we had fun,

and jump rope, and basketball,

and football,
and wheelying our bikes.

You know, was just, summertimes
was just unforgettable.

During all this stuff
that's going on,

there still was a space of it
that was innocent

and, like, beautiful.

And, like, the people
were gorgeous

and, you know,
looked out for one another.

-Family.
-Yeah.

There was those days.

Within all of this darkness,
there was so--

it was a lot of beauty too.

"Boosters in abundance
buy a half-price sweater new."

Booster was someone
who would steal clothes.

They would go to the store
and sometimes had
the tag still on it.

They would steal clothes
and they'd sell it to you

for half price,
so a polo shirt that was...

-Yeah.
-...$50,

you get it for $25,

maybe five, maybe 10,
you know.

"Boosters in abundance
buy a half-price sweater new.

"Your word was everything,

so everything you said
you'd do, you did it."

I still, like, live by those--
like, about this music,

I live by those principles.

It's one of the things that left
like an indelible mark in me.

"Your word was everything,
so everything you said
you'd do, you did it."

-Yeah.
-"You couldn't talk about it
if you ain't live it.

"From where they pull your card
and argue all day

about who's the best MC,
Biggie, Jay-Z, or Nas."

I actually was inserting myself
into an argument

-that I wasn't even in yet.
-Yeah, yeah, yeah.

This was my second album.

-Yeah.
-You know, they were
talking about me heavy

-on the street level.
-Yeah.

But I hadn't had
mainstream success.

-And these guys was already...
-Mm-hmm.

...pretty much
mainstream artists.

"...who was the best MCs,
Biggie, Jay-Z, or Nas.

"Where the drug czars evolved
and th*gs are at odds,

"at each other's throats
for the love of foreign cars.

And cats catch cases,
hoping the judge R-and-Rs."

Released on your own
reconnaissance.

-Mm-hmm.
-But most times, you know,

you had a public defender.

System was not bending your way.

That's what you thought
you was gonna get,

and that what you hoped for,
"But most times

"find they self locked up
behind bars.

And that all."
Ain't no more to it, that's it.

There's no second piece
of this conversation.

"That all.
I'm from where the ball
and breed rhyme stars.

I'm from Marcy, son, I just
thought I'd remind y'all."

And it's just painting a picture
of where I'm from.

How would you say your evolution
from album to album,

if you think about where
you were on the first album,

where you were on this one,
and subsequently,

what were like the big
revelations

of, like,
"Oh, now this is different"?

This album.
If you listen to this album,

there's a lot of paranoia
on this album.

-"Streets is Watching."
-Mm.

You know, there's a lot of--
'cause I had gone

from being the guy
that was in the streets...

and then Reasonable Doubt
comes out,

and I'm no longer viewed
as a street guy anymore.

So, that whole year
Reasonable Doubt was out,

I was hearing people saying...
[knocking on table]

"Oh, and then once he
come back to the projects,

we gonna rob them,
we gonna do this and that."

Like, and I was like, wait.

-"Don't you know who I am?"
-I'm still me.

-[chuckles] Yeah.
-I haven't changed in one year.

But everything changed.

The way people talked about me
and the way they viewed me,

everything's changed.
I was in a full-blown w*r

by the time
that second album came out.

If you look on that album,

everyone thinks
it's a photo sh**t.

Like, I remember Nipsey,
God rest his soul,

said "Jiggy-- Jigga with
the Rollie and the vest."

It's like a thing for them
in their mind.

It's like a-- a image of me,

'cause on that cover
I had a vest and a Rolex on.

But I-- that's how I came
to the sh**t.

I just got there
and the photographer was like,

"You look great.
Let's sh**t it."

But I was in a w*r.
I had the vest on for real.

-Yeah.
-For a reason.

I had a bulletproof vest on.

So, that's where you get songs
like, and Streets is Watching.

"If I sh**t you, I'm brainless.

But if you sh**t me,
then you famous."

What am I to do?

This-- everything changed,

and now these are the emotions
that I had to deal with.

Like, "If I sh**t you,
I'm brainless."

-'Cause now I'm famous, right?
-Yeah.

-Or-- or I have
something to live for.
-You have more to lose.

I have more to lose.
All the gangsters

is coming from everywhere,
like, they want a piece of you.

These are my first feelings...

of being famous.
You imagine that?

-Yeah.
-Like, it wasn't like, "Yes!

-This is great!"
-No. No, now in a way,

-it's a bigger target
on your back.
-Exactly.

It's way more dangerous.

So, "It's hard not
to k*ll n*gg*s.

"It's like a full-time job
not to k*ll.

Can't chill.
Streets is watching."

It ain't like, "Okay, time out."

-Yeah.
-No, no, it's still going.

"They wanna test you
when your g*n goes warm.

"Can't get caught
with your feet up.

"Gotta keep your heat up.

Sweet guys running around
swearing they're sweeter."

Like, you ain't even a gangsta,

but because you think someone's
in a vulnerable position,

you know, typical bully.

"Once you tagged lame,
the game is Follow the Leader."

Like, once one person
get off on you,

then it's open season.
"Aw, he a sucker.

He let what-you-call-him
take his thing."

-Yeah.
-"Word? Yo, come here."

-Yeah.
-You know?
"Once you tagged lame,

"the game is Follow the Leader.
Everybody want a piece

of your scrilla,
so you gotta keep it realer."

You know, "Kidnap n*gg*s
wanna steal ya.

"Broke n*gg*s
don't want no cash,

they just wanna k*ll ya
for the name."

-Ima-- that's even
a worse thing.
-Wow.

-They don't even want nothing.
-No.

"They just wanna
k*ll you for your name.

-Yeah.
-"They don't know the rules.

"Disrespecting the game,
they want you to blow your cool.

"And force your hand.
Of course that man's plotting.

Smarten up,
the streets is watching."

Of course, he's plotting, right?

-And I had enough awareness...
-Mm.

...to know these things.

To know and to avoid it.

Like, how do you
avoid these things, right?

'Cause you could
react emotionally.

Was it only good to give it up?

Was there any trepidation...

-Yeah.
-...on giving up the old life?

Yeah, because you giving up...

whoever you believed
yourself to be.

-Yeah.
-Right? And that's a large part.

Remember, I'm 26.

So, that's 26 years
of warming up to a person

where I had to say...

that doesn't matter.

-It was hard to let go.
-Yeah.

Like, let that go.
Who cares what people say?

But then,
w-when you living that life,

your reputation is everything.

That's a full separation
from who you are.

-All of that stuff had to go.
-Yeah.

You can't do both.
You're gonna be an entertainer

or you gonna be a street guy,
you can't be both.

No one's ever done both.
No one. No.

In the history of the world,
it doesn't exist.

And everyone
that tried to do both...

got themself in big trouble.

Have you been the same person
the whole time?

No, that-- again,
that was one change.

Like, letting go of all of that.

And then, there was
a change in, like...

the music I wanted to make.

-That was a big change,
it was like--
-When did that happen?

I wanna say Black Album.

You know, around that time.

I remember people, like--
me rapping

about "Bonnie and Clyde,"
and people were like...

"You rapping about
a relationship? Like..."

And although I touched these
subjects, it felt different.

It felt like a-- you know,
a departure of...

I remember Juan--
he gonna hate that I say this.

My friend Juan,
great friend of mine,

my brother, he left the studio,

'cause in his mind,
The Black Album,

he think this is gonna be
the hardest record of all time.

-I see.
-And he heard these records,

he's like,
"Wh... What's going on in here?"

-He got mad and left.
-Mm.

And he left so long
that we finished the album

before he came back,
which is maybe a week or so.

-Yeah, yeah, yeah.
-We-- it didn't take that long,
and we finished it.

And I talk to him
about this all the time,

and he gets mad, "No, I didn't!

I just thought
it was something else, man."

You know, at the core,
my belief system

is pretty much the same.

But, um...

Consistency of the songs

on 4:44 is amazing, how...

it feels like, uh,
it's unusual to say that--

that it just keeps
getting better,

but it feels like it
just keeps getting better.

I don't know what's different
in your process,

but whatever it is,
it's working. [chuckles]

Yeah, thank you.
Ironically, the album

I listen to of mine the least.

I can't even listen
to that album.

-Yeah, there'll be a time.
-Like today.

Today I listened
with different ears.

That was the first time today

I listened as a writer
of a song...

being a-- being a bit
removed from it.

-Wanna do another song?
-Yes. Let's do it.

[♪ "Can I Live" playing]

Now, let's have some fun.
[chuckles]

"Keep one eye open
like CBS," the logo.

-Yeah. Yeah.
-With the one eye.

Or the "see BS."

"I'll keep one eye open
like CBS."

[chuckles]

-Oh, "see BS."
-Yeah.

Bullshit. [chuckles] Yeah.

-I never got that.
-Yeah.

♪ Can I live ♪

♪ Roc-a-Fella, y'all ♪

[Jay-Z] It was meant to be
this opulent lifestyle.

Like, these horns
made me feel like...

[imitating horns] ...like almost
like this orchestra.

On the balcony
and you got your binocular,

and you got your suit on,
and you-- you went

-to see opera, and you, like...
-Mm-hmm.

It felt like that.
Um, you know,

it starts with the paranoia.

"Everybody watching me closely,
my sh*t is butter for the bread,

they wanna toast me."
It's just like a little
metaphor,

like "bread," meaning the money,
and "toast,"

we called g*ns "toast"
back then.

"The bread, they wanna toast me.
I keep my head, both of 'em,

"where they supposed to be.
h*s will get you sidetracked

"then clap from close feet.
I don't sleep.

I'm tired, I feel wired
like codeine."

This-- this para--
this feeling, it's tiring,

it's like never-ending paranoia
that every room you walk in,

you gotta... you know.

"I feel wired like codeine,

"These days a brother
got to admire me

from four fiends away."

I love, like, measuring distance
by-- by fiends.

-Like, now I'm not hand-to-hand.
-Yeah.

-"I'm separated by four fiends."
-Yeah.

Like the fiend
who's buying the drug,

the fiend who's selling
the drug,

the fiend who's over him...

and then the fiend
who's over him.

-I'm the big guy now.
-Mm-hmm.

You gotta admire me
from four fiends away.

-Wow.
-I'm measuring the distance by--

my success is now
I'm not on the streets,

I'm in a different level.
I'm selling weight.

"My pain wish it was quick
to see from selling 'caine

till brains was fried
to a fricassee."

I wish you could see
the pain quickly,

because this is a slow death
at this point.

I'm thinking 'bout it now but,

"At the time,
it never bothered me.

At the bar getting
my thug on properly."

I'm telling you where I was.
Like, I was there so much,

I probably was just in the club

spending some money
on some drinks

and having fun at the--
you know.

"At the time,
it never bothered me.

"At the bar getting
my thug on properly.

"My squad and me,
lack of respect for authority.

"Laughing hard, we happy
to be escaping poverty,

-however brief."
-However brief.

-We know this isn't
long-lasting.
-Yes.

Most people run is two years.

You look at runs of, like...

you know, major guys
in the game,

it's three to five years.

"We know this game
got valleys and peaks,

expectation for dips,
for precipitation."

For rainy days.
"We stack chips."

-We put the money away.
-Yeah.

"Hardly the youth I used to be.

"Soon to see a million.
No more Big Willie.

My game has grown,
prefer you call me William."

-If someone's name
was Willie, their-- their...
-Yeah, when they grow up.

...proper certain name
would be William.

-So, it was just like
a play on that.
-Yeah.

"Illing for revenues,
Rayful Edmond-like."

Rayful Edmond was a drug dealer
out of D.C.

who was on, like the--
they had him on 20/20.

He came in out the helicopter,
shackled.

Uh, you know,
"Rayful Edmond-like,"

comparing myself to
the biggest guys in the game.

"Rayful Edmond-like,
Channel 7 News,

"round seven jewels,
head dead in the mic.

Forgetting all I ever knew."

Like "dead in the mic,"
like how you would be

at a press conference,
like you-- you know,

talking and, like,
"forgetting all I ever knew."

I'm not gonna tell.
"It's convenient amnesia.

I suggest you call my lawyer.
I know the procedure."

We've been here before.

"Lock my body,"
just take me to jail.

I'm not gonna violate that code.

"Lock my body,
can't trap my mind.

Easily explain
why we adapt to crime."

I know why we doing all this.

"I'd rather die enormous
than live dormant.

"That how we on it,
live at the main event.

"I bet a trip to Maui on it.

"Presidential suites,
my residentials

"for the weekend.
Confidentially speaking in codes

"since I sense you peeking.
The NXS rental,

don't be fooled,
my game is mental."

I'm changing cars.
Some of them are rental,

some of them are mine,
I'm moving.

"Don't be fooled,
my game is mental.

We both out of town, dog,
what you trying to get into?"

Yeah, "my game is mental"
is both,

like, s-saying it is mental...

-Yes.
-...and it's crazy.

-It's crazy.
-At the same time.

"Meet me by the one
that starts a G up."

-You know, meet me
by the real tables...
-Yeah, expensive.

Not the little table, $25.

We meet "by the one
that starts a G up.

"This way, no fraud Willies

present gambling, they re-up."

You know, they-- you would
gamble the money

that you used to re-up
to appear a certain way.

Boy, you know you need
that money

-to keep your business going.
-Mm-hmm.

And, you know, the big guys
have money for re-up,

and this was just play money.

Uh, "We can have this
pleasant time sipping marga--"

I don't know why
we said the margaritas.

Must have been James Bond,


-[laughing]
-I don't know where that--
that entered in.

"We can have a sipping ti--
present time sipping margaritas.

Ge-ge-ge-yeah."

-Yeah, "Can I live?"
-[paper sliding]

Last one for today,
Don't You Know.

-[♪ "Don't You Know" playing]
-That's a-- that's a good call.

That's a, like, unusual call.

♪ Fresh from London,
Paris, Germany ♪

This is like an obscure
soundtrack song

that got leaked,
it was like-- yeah.

-♪ Bonsoir, m*therf*ckers ♪
-I love it.

-The words.
-I love it. Yeah.

I was only picking
based on words.

-I love it.
-Like, the story.

And this beat's so beautiful.

♪ Every place I visit,
I got land there ♪

-[♪ music stops]
-I was just rapping there.

I was like competing.
That was around the time

everybody was competing,
like, you know.

I don't know what
we was trying to prove,

but I mean, you know, I guess
that part of that battling

coming back from the early days.

-Yeah.
-Like, trying to get...

You know, there was this thing
where, like,

you had to be,
like, the best, and--

and you had to, like,
clash at the top.

It was inevitable,
whoever was up there.

And I think it's still part--
some of that exists still today,

but not as much as before.

It's not gonna be
Biggie, Jay-Z, and Nas.

It's gonna be one of us,
and who's gonna get there?

And, uh, "48 Hours,
it's Reggie Hammond.

"The-- the Colt
be Nick Nolte.

"My demeanor
is Humphrey Bogie, baby.

-[both chuckle]
-"Started from the get go,

No, not the Geico.
Ain't nothing accidental."

What?

"Started from the get go.
Not, not the Geico.

"Ain't nothing accidental,
just the facts

"that I've been through.
Perhaps if you was into

"half of the sh*t
I've been through,

"that'd make your pen move.

"Your mind would open,
your heart would bleed.

"Instead, you n*gg*s flow
oh, so retardedly.

"You sound Ret*rded to me.
How could you stand there,

pants there, down the..."
I was just...

"Rap stinks,
you cats are the Sphinx.

"You cut off your nose
to spite your face.

Bet you like it
that way, don't you?"

[both chuckle]

No, but the Sphinx,
and "cut off your nose."

-Yeah. Yeah.
-Like, just the references.

-Everything is--
-Still had that, yeah.

"And four-part harmony
like Jodeci."

-Yeah.
-"My flow is a felony."

"Check out my destiny.

"I'm in tune with the heavenly
governing bodies.

"Check-check out my destiny.
I walk leaving four footprints.

"My hood sense, my book smarts,
my faith in the unknown

"and a good heart.
What's seldom shown

"is the good part.
Like I said, I try
to bring you life,

but y'all want dead.
You won't listen."

But how did you know it then?

-I have no idea. Yeah.
-You know, like, this is like

-elder wisdom looking back.
-Yeah.

Like, now you can
read this like, "Oh yeah,
that's what I was like."

-But at the time...
-Yeah. Yeah.

-It's wild.
-I just felt it.

It's really wild.
It really is wild.

I don't know where
it was coming from.

I had no idea. It was no...

You know, like,
some things I could say,
like, we don't have the tools.

I can directly
draw back to like...

-Yeah, it makes sense.
-..."Oh, I got that from--
from therapy."

I know exactly when I--
where I heard that.

I know when I heard that,
and how it made sense

and now I can expand on that.

-Mm-hmm.
-And here's my beliefs on--

But I know where
the-- the origin come from.

-Mm-hmm.
-I don't know where
this came from.

It was just coming out.

And I was like,
how did I know that?

It was really just spilling out.

And it was like, again,
on a subconscious level,

this information was...

And this knowing. Right?

That's why they called it
enlightenment,

'cause it's already--
it's already in us.

-Yes.
-And someone brings it out.

You know, you already have
everything you know intuitively

of how you behave,
and what you believe in,

and things like that.

Um, so it was there,

but it was definitely
not on a conscious level.

It was definitely operating
behind the screen.

Yeah, you knew so much.
It's amazing.

Yeah.

[♪ "Numb/Encore" by Jay-Z
and Linkin Park playing]

♪ Whoo, yeah, ready,
whoo, whoo, whoo ♪

♪ Can I get a encore,
do you want more? ♪

♪ Cookin' raw
with the Brooklyn boys ♪

♪ So for one last time
I need y'all to roar ♪

♪ Unh, unh, unh, unh, yeah ♪

♪ Now, what the hell
are you waiting for? ♪

♪ After me,
there shall be no more ♪

♪ So for one last time, n*gga,
make some noise ♪

♪ Get 'em Jay ♪

♪ Who you know
fresher than Hov?
Riddle me that ♪

♪ The rest of y'all know
where I'm lyrically at ♪

♪ Can't none of y'all mirror
me back, yeah, hearin' me rap ♪

♪ It's like hearin' G-Rap
in his prime ♪

♪ I'm Young H.O.,
rap's Grateful Dead ♪

♪ 'Bout to take over the globe,
now break bread ♪

♪ I'm in Boeing jets,
Global Express ♪

♪ Out the country but
the blueberry still connect ♪

♪ On the low but the yacht
got a triple deck ♪

♪ But when you young,
what the f*ck you expect? ♪

♪ Yep, yep!
Grand openin', grand closin' ♪

♪ g*dd*mn, your man Hov
cracked the can open again ♪

♪ Who you gonna find
doper than him? ♪

♪ With no pen, just draw
off inspiration-tion ♪

♪ Soon, you gonna see
you can't replace him-him ♪

♪ With cheap imitations
for these generations ♪

♪ Can I get an encore?
Do you want more? ♪

♪ Cookin' raw
with the Brooklyn boys ♪

♪ So for one last time I need
y'all to roar, yeah, whoo ♪

♪ Now, what the hell
are you waiting for? ♪

♪ After me,
there shall be no more ♪

♪ So for one last time, n*gga,
make some noise ♪

♪ What the hell
are you waiting for? ♪

♪ Look what you made me do,
look what I made for you ♪

♪ Knew if I paid my dues,
how will they pay you? ♪

♪ When you first
come in the game,
they try to play you ♪

♪ Then you drop
a couple of hits,
look how they wave to you ♪

♪ From Marcy
to Madison Square... ♪